does a skilled surgeon correlate with skill in the anatomy lab?

[habibi99]

Hey whats up guys,

Im an MS1 and Ive been having a question eat at me for a while. I finished anatomy a few months ago. It was grueling for me and I didn't perform as well as I had hoped. Medical school in general has been very difficult for me, much moreso than the other kids, especially adjusting to the study load. I'm a little crazy though, I love being pushed, challenged and stressed so I'm enjoying it.

But anyways, Im big into sports and Ive always wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon. But during anatomy lab, I wasn't as skilled as the other kids. I felt lost some of the times and in dissection, my abilities were not high. I cut important vessels, had difficulty finding stuff and overall wasn't as in tune with what was going on as some of my other classmates. I barely passed anatomy and I feel I didn't learn it well.

You guys think there is a big correlation between becoming a surgeon and skill in anatomy/cadaver? My other classes are fine but that class was particularly difficult. Im thinking about asking the course supervisors to let me take a makeup final exam over the summer so I can sit and learn the stuff again, especially the limbs section which I did horrid on.

What you guys think, especially you MS3/MS4's? Also if any of you have any advice, I'd appreciate it.

CLIFFS:
-Want to be orthopedic surgeon
- Challenge/stress is no problem- love it
- Performed subpar at anatomy and dissection
- Any correlation in becoming a surgeon? Other Advice?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[BlaseFaire]

I am a MS1 and thought through this a couple times this year too.

I don't think they're related. When you are performing a surgery or learning about surgery, you have a detailed process and are familiar with the landscape you'll be entering.

In anatomy lab, you're usually hunting for small, obscure-things while nauseated by the smell of the lab and frustration that you have to stay until you find what you need. You're also just trying to use a Grant's dissector or some other guide without really understanding everything you're doing.

Lab is a learning experience. The cadaver is your teacher. Just hope you learned enough to build a foundation and move on, reviewing related anatomy periodically when it comes up in other courses. No one will remember everything from the course and anatomy is often considered by some to be the most difficult class they have taken in their lives.

Congratulations on finishing.

 

[disorder]

No.

 

[Winged Scapula]

There's a reason its a 5 year program.

 

[MilkmanAl]

The two aren't related. Don't worry.

 

[survivordo]

Always been told you can teach a monkey to operate, it's knowing when to operate that is the real skill! No worries brotha, this won't hold you back!

Survivor DO

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Not according to some of the fourth years in my class. Some of the guys that went surgery didn't even like anatomy lab.

 

[Didierdrogba]

A surgeon who occasionally teaches my class says while anatomy is important for surgeons to know, surgery is nothing like gross anatomy lab.

 

[neusu]

Hey whats up guys,

Im an MS1 and Ive been having a question eat at me for a while. I finished anatomy a few months ago. It was grueling for me and I didn't perform as well as I had hoped. Medical school in general has been very difficult for me, much moreso than the other kids, especially adjusting to the study load. I'm a little crazy though, I love being pushed, challenged and stressed so I'm enjoying it.

But anyways, Im big into sports and Ive always wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon. But during anatomy lab, I wasn't as skilled as the other kids. I felt lost some of the times and in dissection, my abilities were not high. I cut important vessels, had difficulty finding stuff and overall wasn't as in tune with what was going on as some of my other classmates. I barely passed anatomy and I feel I didn't learn it well.

You guys think there is a big correlation between becoming a surgeon and skill in anatomy/cadaver? My other classes are fine but that class was particularly difficult. Im thinking about asking the course supervisors to let me take a makeup final exam over the summer so I can sit and learn the stuff again, especially the limbs section which I did horrid on.

What you guys think, especially you MS3/MS4's? Also if any of you have any advice, I'd appreciate it.

CLIFFS:
-Want to be orthopedic surgeon
- Challenge/stress is no problem- love it
- Performed subpar at anatomy and dissection
- Any correlation in becoming a surgeon? Other Advice?

1) Were you trying to preserve those nerves and arteries?

2) No-one cares. Your board score is your singular ability to get an ortho residency or not..

 

[link2swim06]

I am not a surgeon but a living body in the OR looks a good amount different than a cadaver in anatomy lab. Also unlikely anatomy lab, surgeons are actually trained...not just given a manual and told to 'figure it out.'

 

[neusu]

I am not a surgeon but a living body in the OR looks a good amount different than a cadaver in anatomy lab. Also unlikely anatomy lab, surgeons are actually trained...not just given a manual and told to 'figure it out.'

False.

Surgeons are surgeons. We want to learn from the git-go regarding anatomy regardless of "direction"

Cadevers are actually better than living bodies because new techniques can be tried without hurting a patient (sorry if that sounds morbid)

As a surgeon I have been given many cadaver heads. I know the anatomy cold.

Perhaps my meticulous dissection aside, someone who is interest in orthoepaedics shouldn't just blow through major arteries and nerves..

 

[habibi99]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I feel a lot better. I actually thought everyone was gonna say find a different specialty.

Much love.

 

[45408]

You guys think there is a big correlation between becoming a surgeon and skill in anatomy/cadaver?

No. Dissecting preserved tissue and doing an operation are very, very different. Live tissue has planes that come apart easily. Preserved tissue is all just plastered together and mostly has to be cut apart.

 

[siliso]

That. Cadaver labs are a great learning opportunity, but they are not much like surgery...at all. Besides, the attending is there making sure you don't cut any big arteries and nerves for the first X years, presumably because most lower-level surgery residents would otherwise occasionally damage them. Why should you know how not to in your first month of medical school?

 

[link2swim06]

False.

Surgeons are surgeons. We want to learn from the git-go regarding anatomy regardless of "direction"

Cadevers are actually better than living bodies because new techniques can be tried without hurting a patient (sorry if that sounds morbid)

As a surgeon I have been given many cadaver heads. I know the anatomy cold.

Perhaps my meticulous dissection aside, someone who is interest in orthoepaedics shouldn't just blow through major arteries and nerves..

Huh? So you are saying the interns surgery residents are given schwartz surgery and sent into the OR alone to figure out a complex surgery?

Of course not.

In anatomy lab medical students are....that was my point.

 

[45408]

As a surgeon I have been given many cadaver heads.

That's gross. Who procures those? "Well, gotta go cut off some more heads for the neurosurg residents today. *fires up the sawzall*"

 

[JP2740]

My group had a prosector who was brilliant at dissections and loved doing them. So this was my routine: I'd take a nap like 30 min before lab started and show up 25-45 min late. I'd then walk around and pretend at other groups' bodies to be interested in that **** while chatting up the girls in my class. Show up to my lab group time to time to check in, make sure I'm learning stuff from them. Leave an hour before the lab closes. I did pretty well and thought it was my fav class.

Note: I did the heart dissection

Ok you all hate me

 

[alpinism]

That's gross. Who procures those? "Well, gotta go cut off some more heads for the neurosurg residents today. *fires up the sawzall*"

We have a huge vat in our anatomy lab that contains around 50 or so preserved heads (and brains) in various different states of dissection.

We used a few of them for our head and neck practical and some of the surgical residents practice techniques on them from time to time.

 

[45408]

We have a huge vat in our anatomy lab that contains around 50 or so preserved heads (and brains) in various different states of dissection.

We used a few of them for our head and neck practical and some of the surgical residents practice techniques on them from time to time.

Does this guy work there?

 

[Freddie Mercury]

Does this guy work there?

Patrick Bateman: Do you know what Ed Gein said about women? "When I see a pretty girl walking down the street, I think two things. One part wants me to take her out, talk to her, be real nice and sweet and treat her right."

David Van Patten: And what did the other part think?

Patrick Bateman: "What her head would look like on a stick!"

 

[Kaustikos]

No. Dissecting preserved tissue and doing an operation are very, very different. Live tissue has planes that come apart easily. Preserved tissue is all just plastered together and mostly has to be cut apart.

That's what I've been thinking.

Also, god forbid my skills in anatomy are correlative to my ability to be a surgeon. I've never had anatomy before. Never cut a body. Never looked inside a body. I sucked at anatomy... but that's because it was entirely new and my group was pretty much on our own. Our professor rarely helped/answered questions appropriately.

 

[NickNaylor]

That's what I've been thinking.

Also, god forbid my skills in anatomy are correlative to my ability to be a surgeon. I've never had anatomy before. Never cut a body. Never looked inside a body. I sucked at anatomy... but that's because it was entirely new and my group was pretty much on our own. Our professor rarely helped/answered questions appropriately.

Wut, how did that happen?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717

 

[Kaustikos]

Wut, how did that happen?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717

The professor being a dick or not having had anatomy in UG?

I was a pharmacologist at Lilly beforehand and took mostly graduate level classes in that sort of thing. I wasn't 100% deadset on med school before I applied..so I never thought to take anatomy.

As to the professor? He believes in tough love...

 

[alpinism]

Does this guy work there?

He got fired. Too many students complained his lectures were too cut-and-dry.

 

[neusu]

That's gross. Who procures those? "Well, gotta go cut off some more heads for the neurosurg residents today. *fires up the sawzall*"

Little known secret, each neurosurgery resident is required quarterly to procure 3 heads by any means possible. During boot camp you are given a bottle of chloroform, a blow gun with 3-tranquilizer darts, and a Swiss Army Field Butcher Dressing Kit.

All joking aside, there are companies out there that supply anatomical specimens. Unlike abdominal cavities, not terribly many non-primate mammals out there have structurally and anatomically similar skulls/brains to humans.

 

[45408]

Animals are only used for live surgery demonstrations. I've never heard of an animal cadaver lab. I had a live dog lab for cardiac physiology in med school. They've since gotten rid of it because of protests.

 

[GangaMaster]

He got fired. Too many students complained his lectures were too cut-and-dry.

 

[DrBodacious]

To the OP :

Cadavers are monotone, juicy, slippery, shoeleathery things. Not the same as the real deal.

But, it does help if you are good with your hands. For example, musical instrument, woodworking, mechanic, video games.

I think the "you can teach a monkey to operate" saying is cute, but not totally true. As a chief resident in otolaryngology, I have seen one person that really struggled. He/she can probably get through residency and do the easy stuff, but that kinda limits your productivity when you get out. It helps if you are skilled and efficient. She really probably should have chosen something else. I think that probably applies to the bottom 10th percentile.


Sent from my HTC One X+ using SDN Mobile

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

Little known secret, each neurosurgery resident is required quarterly to procure 3 heads by any means possible. During boot camp you are given a bottle of chloroform, a blow gun with 3-tranquilizer darts, and a Swiss Army Field Butcher Dressing Kit.

All joking aside, there are companies out there that supply anatomical specimens. Unlike abdominal cavities, not terribly many non-primate mammals out there have structurally and anatomically similar skulls/brains to humans.

So, who uses the headless bodies? Do they chop them up and send various bits and pieces to the urologists, podiatrists, hand surgeons and so forth, or can you just order a complete cadaver, minus the head?

 

[KGflyboy]

Different parts are sent to different places. It's cheaper to order just the limb or part you need. Check out the book Stiff: The Curious Lives of Human Cadavers." It talks about all the weird things cadavers are used for.

 

[Dral]

My group had a prosector who was brilliant at dissections and loved doing them. So this was my routine: I'd take a nap like 30 min before lab started and show up 25-45 min late. I'd then walk around and pretend at other groups' bodies to be interested in that **** while chatting up the girls in my class. Show up to my lab group time to time to check in, make sure I'm learning stuff from them. Leave an hour before the lab closes. I did pretty well and thought it was my fav class.

Note: I did the heart dissection

Ok you all hate me

I'll take the bait.

You did a great job of chatting up the admissions committee as well, I'm guessing. Grats.
.