Does anyone else t

[LM75]

To be honest, that's not the experience I had. I transferred from a top 50 school to a top 20 school. The gen chem at the top 50 school was an absolute breeze. The gen chem at the top 20 school is much harder. It's what most schools do in both gen chems, packed down to the first one.

Post your syllabus. Let's see.

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[LM75]

Wasn't your premise...

I was being sarcastic man.

 

[Saifa]

If your classes are invariably so much harder then go ahead and kill the MCAT and be done with it. If you didn't get into HMS with a 3.5 and 522 from Harvard College I'm sorry dude but it wasn't your GPA.

 

[The Ducktor]

Post your syllabus. Let's see.

I don't want to post my syllabus for anonymity, but at my top 50 school we never went over symmetry (point groups), mass spec, orbitals/intro quantum mechanics, lewis structures/bond angles, MO theory/MO diagrams, thermodynamics, or molecular spectroscopy, and that's just to name a few. At my top 20 we covered all of those, very much in depth. I'm definitely not complaining; I love chemistry.

The averages for the top 50 school were always 60's or lower. The averages for the top 20 school are considerably higher, even though the tests are much more difficult.

 

[medschoolzombie]

I don't want to post my syllabus for anonymity, but at my top 50 school we never went over symmetry (point groups), mass spec, orbitals/intro quantum mechanics, lewis structures/bond angles, MO theory/MO diagrams, thermodynamics, or molecular spectroscopy, and that's just to name a few. At my top 20 we covered all of those, very much in depth. I'm definitely not complaining; I love chemistry.

The averages for the top 50 school were always 60's or lower. The averages for the top 20 school are considerably higher, even though the tests are much more difficult.

If anything that makes it sound like the top 20 added a bunch of useless stuff to purposefully make it harder for no apparent reason lol

 

[ExcitatorySynapse]

If anything that makes it sound like the top 20 added a bunch of useless stuff to purposefully make it harder for no apparent reason lol

My school added complex analysis to multivariate calculus for no reason.

Honestly, I can't say anything about material difficulty, because I only went to 1 school. But I found it to be very competitive. It's the top 0.1% of all high school students in the US/world. The professors know this and just assign more work or ask harder questions. If you aren't putting your 100%, even as an intelligent individual, you can bet that many other students are, and you aren't going to bring the top grades. I think there's less pressure at other institutions with broader distributions. Personally, I was very depressed for most of my time there (not really the school's fault, though the stress didn't help), and my ~70% effort brought me solid A-s. I found the MCAT pretty easy (studied 3 weeks for 520+ score).

I'm not sure if it should be valued more, since I think it is considered, but I think GPAs should be accounted for, within reason.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Worth noting Carleton College has a 82% acceptance rate to medical school (77% on the first try) if Obnoxious Dad is going to use that school...

St. Olaf has an 83% (no mention of first try or not) . Those are the top two colleges in Minnesota. U of M Med school is more than familiar with the colleges in MN and their respective difficulties. How much do they know about the difference between Ohio State and U of Florida? Little.

These acceptance rates are pure jive. They measure the percentage of students who apply and get in rather than the percentage of freshmen at those institutions who started out as premeds and eventually got into medical school. Many freshmen at these places throw in the sponge and give up on a medical career.

 

[Mad Jack]

To some degree it is. Largely the MCAT is the ultimate equalizer, however

 

[Lucca]

Following the above argument, there's more qualified students from the T20-30 so it shouldn't be surprising that there's a high proportion. This is true for MSTP in all top programs.

I have for a long time argued against this, and I will continue to do so as someone who has spent time within and without the “top tier” environment.

 

[medschoolzombie]

We tried to parse this out in two previous threads, and no one had any data to back it up, it is probably an unanswerable question. What can be said is that ultimately between 10-25% of the graduating classes at the top 25 universities matriculate into med school. It is of course possible to argue, and is probably correct, that 33%+ of the freshmen at these universities start out "pre-med", and many don't end up applying, but I would argue the majority of those students who don't end up applying actively choose other lucrative career options, rather than truly being "weeded out" in the intro chem and bio coursework.

There is also no data to cite indicating that more students at top schools are "weeded out" of the premed curriculum due to poor grades, than occurs at the exact same intro bio and chem courses at lower ranked schools. Frankly, with the notable exceptions of Princeton, WashU, MIT, Cornell and Hopkins, I would argue the remainder of the top 25 demonstrate grade inflation that would offset this phenomenon. Basically if you can survive some B+s in 2-6 pre-req courses, you will easily pull A-s and As in small 15 person science seminars in upper level courses that students at lower ranked schools don't have access to.

Third, by definition you have to measure "the percentage of students who apply and get in". Therefore, if 25 schools, which account for 25% of MS1 seats, show an average admit rate of ~80%+, you must have a large pool of schools with admit rates substantially below the national average, in order to arrive at the frequently cited ~40% admit rate. Criticizing how the 80%+ stat is built does not in any way change this phenomenon.

Lastly, "many freshmen" at all undergraduate institutions "throw in the sponge and give up on a medical career", your burden of proof is to show that the rate of this phenomenon is higher at top undergrads in order to make this point.

There was a reddit post about Washu where a current student complained that the majority of the premed class is seeded out since out of the 600 (maybe more?) that started out only around less than 200 actually end up graduating. It’s very unlikely that they all decided the premed track wasn’t for them or they were terrible students . It’s definetly likely that classes were made harder to weed out the numbers to make their institution look better/more competitive

 

[Angus Avagadro]

My school has regional feeder under grad schools it likes. I'm sure most medical schools have the same bias. Strong performances at these schools gets you an edge at my school. Nothing in writing, but I'm certain others schools are the same.
All the angst and garment rending in this fast moving thread is for naught. As hard as schools they to be objective, there is some subjective bias in all admissionn processes.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

No. That'd be a ridiculous idea given how finite number of spots there are in any given "prestigious" university. Not to mention the different professors that grade these classes. Motivated and intelligent high school students get accepted and become motivated and intelligent college students and then are accepted and become motivated and intelligent medical students. The school has a minor role in a student's performance and overall success as an applicant. This is true for applying to medical school and residency. A successful applicant with a 520 MCAT or 250 STEP1 + research/honors/etc from any school will have offers and interview invites to all the top programs.

@Goro: does that mean that someone from a school like New York Medical College with a 260 Step 1 and research - plus honors - has a shot at a psych residency at McLean? How about a neurosurgery residency at Mass General?

 

[deleted938090]

For a top premed student, I would advocate picking one of the other top 25 where non medical options are equal (if not greater) in the event you wash (pun) out, and you could benefit from grade inflation.

I would advise the high school student to enter the highest-ranked undergrad they could afford, with regards to scholarships, etc. The highest ranked universities have generous financial aid such that low-income students have a full ride and mid-income students have partial scholarship. During my undergrad decision process, it happened that the endowment from these universities were such that the economic decision would be to attend them.

Not every student knows they will be premed from day 1. I was one of these students: in choosing an undergrad, research prestige was important to me, as I had intended to become a researcher. I feel it was important to attend a university where there are multiple options available to you. How could you truly know that medicine is the right career for you if you did not have the opportunity to explore all of the others? Interestingly, many entering pre-meds realized that there were other careers that they liked much better and were able to make the decision out of their own volition to pursue a different career.

 

[Saifa]

The only thing easier than all the easy As I earned in college was just not going to WashU

 

[medschoolzombie]

This phenomenon is explicitly accounted for, down to the actual undergrad institution and # of students / applicants, in my comment. It could very well be 33% of a class starts out in the intro course, and 10-15% end up applying. All that is relevant is whether these hypothetical numbers are different than at a lower ranked undergrad. No one ever tries to make that argument, though I'm open to hearing it. I don't believe this is answerable unless you petitioned the Common App for their data on majors that college applicants list, and then cross referenced it against what individuals end up declaring.

WashU is also one of the 5 I explicitly cited as difficult. For a top premed student, I would advocate picking one of the other top 25 where non medical options are equal (if not greater) in the event you wash (pun) out, and you could benefit from grade inflation.

tldr; weed out happens at top ranked undergrads and others, prove that it's higher / lower in one group vs. the other

I’m confused. Can’t you just look at drop out rate to know whether it’s higher or lower? If 600 people drop out of premed at Washu vs maybe 100-200 at x school, clearly that means people are dropping out/being weeded out more at Washu then the other school

 

[Goro]

I’m confused. Can’t you just look at drop out rate to know whether it’s higher or lower? If 600 people drop out of premed at Washu vs maybe 100-200 at x school, clearly that means people are dropping out/being weeded out more at Washu then the other school

I don't think any school anywhere keeps statistics of how many pre-meds switch over to a different major

 

[medschoolzombie]

I don't think any school anywhere keeps statistics of how many pre-meds switch over to a different major

Technically you don’t have to. You already know how many people start out premed freshman year. All you have to do is See how many graduate/apply to med school by the end. It’s easier if the school has a committee too

 

[getdown]

@Goro: does that mean that someone from a school like New York Medical College with a 260 Step 1 and research - plus honors - has a shot at a psych residency at McLean? How about a neurosurgery residency at Mass General?

Yes, assuming you have all your other ducks in a row then this person can write their own ticket to any psych program in the country. Neurosurgery would also be a viable option but given how limited the class sizes are each year you'd be willing to apply as broadly as possible since you're competing against people with similar stats.

 

[The Ducktor]

If anything that makes it sound like the top 20 added a bunch of useless stuff to purposefully make it harder for no apparent reason lol

No, we have orgo 2nd semester. The gen chem 1 is to prepare for orgo.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Data from the U of Michigan Medical School. As with Hopkins, you see the admitted students are heavily skewed toward the home town team (U Michigan undergrad) and brand name undergrads:
https://medicine.umich.edu/medschoo...racker/md_five_year_admissions_snapshot_0.pdf

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Yes, assuming you have all your other ducks in a row then this person can write their own ticket to any psych program in the country. Neurosurgery would also be a viable option but given how limited the class sizes are each year you'd be willing to apply as broadly as possible since you're competing against people with similar stats.

What does it take to get into the top derm programs? Could our hero be competitive for a top derm program, or any derm program, with stats like that? How about if he got a 270? Does it take truly astonishing achievement like NEJM papers to get into programs like that?

 

[getdown]

What does it take to get into the top derm programs? Could our hero be competitive for a top derm program, or any derm program, with stats like that? How about if he got a 270? Does it take truly astonishing achievement like NEJM papers to get into programs like that?

Getting good board scores is the minimum requirement for you to even be considered for those competitive specialties. As Gonnif has mentioned each field puts a different emphasis on different things. But in general having research in the field you're going into as well as having outstanding LORs from faculty and wowing during your away rotations will definitely help a lot in your chances of matching. Plus there isn't a "top" derm program. If you're gunning for derm you'll be happy to get in anywhere unless you're geographically restricted. You'll see that people choose residency locations not because it's a "top" program but more for social reasons (family, spouse, kids, etc).

 

[deleted947265]

I imagine this is to somehow offset +/- .2 GPA? No, first of all GPA is arbitrary. You can have professors that will give you an A for showing up or a B for the sole reason that they were put on this earth to burn you. How would you measure how 'strong' a school is anyway? The strength of the education that you get can vary from professor to professor, department to department. Sure if you go to Harvard you're probably getting a good education, but every school has that professor/department.

 

[SteyrFWB]

Current Residents - Residency Training Program - Information Resources for Medical Students and Others Interested in Neurosurgery - GateWay to Neurosurgery @ Massachusetts General Hospital - Harvard Medical School

While very Harvard and other Ivy heavy, current class of Neurosurgery at Mass General (aka House of God) includes MD from Florida State and Univ of Alabama. BTW, it seems Mass General has a thing for Washington University and UAB grads. A very quick scan of surgical, gas and EM residency lists shows MD from Medical College of Georgia, Charles R. Drew University, Texas A&M HSC College of Medicine, University of Alabama at Birmingham, Medical College of Wisconsin, University of California, Davis School of Medicine, Jefferson Medical College, Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine, University of Rochester, UT Southwestern, University of Cincinnati, George Washington University

Residency program selection is influenced very heavily by recommendations, dean letter, and audition rotations. In short, networking matters greatly after STEP score and home institution MD school students have an inherent advantage in that regard.

If you look at the roster of neurosurgery at MGH, you will know most residents are cut from pretty much the same high power undergrad/ medical school mode The other residents from public schools are all MSTP MD-PhD.

The one from FSU with nothing attached is really a different story.

Gary is from a high power legacy of his own. He is an Oxford Rhodes scholar, then played in NFL. (Not NFL, then Rhodes scholar).

Don't let that roster fool you. NO ONE from that neurosurgery resident list is from low powered public school.

Less highly sought after residencies, public schools are fine.

But for high power residency like neurosurgery at MGH, blue-blooded schools do make a difference.

 

[MyOdyssey]

If you look at the roster of neurosurgery at MGH, you will know most residents are cut from pretty much the same high power undergrad/ medical school mode The other residents from public schools are all MSTP MD-PhD.

The one from FSU with nothing attached is really a different story.

Gary is from a high power legacy of his own. He is an Oxford Rhodes scholar, then played in NFL. (Not NFL, then Rhodes scholar).

Don't let that roster fool you. NO ONE from that neurosurgery resident list is from low powered public school.

Less highly sought after residencies, public schools are fine.

But for high power residency like neurosurgery at MGH, blue-blooded schools do make a difference.

What's the benefit to getting a neurosurgery residency at MGH v. a neurosurgery residency from some other program?

 

[medschoolzombie]

What's the benefit to getting a neurosurgery residency at MGH v. a neurosurgery residency from some other program?

Name brand?

 

[Stellaartwa]

This sounds like a great way to put disadvantaged students at a much larger disadvantage than they are born with. I never ever ever thought of trying to go to Harvard or NYU or even an out of state school when I graduated high school. My parents didn’t tell me about it and I wouldn’t have had the money anyway. Should I be at a disadvantage relative to you due to my upbringing? No. I know this isn’t the angle you were considering when asking your question, but it’s the angle you should be considering.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What's the benefit to getting a neurosurgery residency at MGH v. a neurosurgery residency from some other program?

Nothing really, unless you want a high-powered academic career.

 

[deleted938090]

This sounds like a great way to put disadvantaged students at a much larger disadvantage than they are born with. I never ever ever thought of trying to go to Harvard or NYU or even an out of state school when I graduated high school. My parents didn’t tell me about it and I wouldn’t have had the money anyway. Should I be at a disadvantage relative to you due to my upbringing? No. I know this isn’t the angle you were considering when asking your question, but it’s the angle you should be considering.

If you applied for undergraduate at these top schools, they have generous financial aid that could pay for a large portion of the tuition. Despite coming out of HS in the middle of the USA without benefit of family, I was still able to do relatively okay. I think the bigger difference is access to information at the right time times.

 

[altblue]

Name brand?

Might help with recruiting patients.

 

[Stellaartwa]

I think the bigger difference is access to information at the right time times.

That’s the other point I made in my post — lack of information. I was never made aware by my parents, guidance counselor, or teachers that an out-of-state school was even a possibility. I also come from the middle of the country. Prestige isn’t something that Midwesterners, as a whole, are particularly concerned about.

 

[MyOdyssey]

That’s the other point I made in my post — lack of information. I was never made aware by my parents, guidance counselor, or teachers that an out-of-state school was even a possibility. I also come from the middle of the country. Prestige isn’t something that Midwesterners, as a whole, are particularly concerned about.

Did you apply to college at a time when the Common Application was in effect?

 

[NITRAS]

Might help with recruiting patients.

Patients go to people based on insurance, local, and word of mouth. Outside of a very few jobs, no one really cares. I've only been asked a few times where I went to med school, and only a couple residency.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Patients go to people based on insurance, local, and word of mouth. Outside of a very few jobs, no one really cares. I've only been asked a few times where I went to med school, and only a couple residency.

I think where you trained only matters to the search comittee for a university department Chair, and to the grads of top programs when they get together. Sure it might help with a junior university appointment, but I have worked with grads of of these programs. They are usually walking textbooks, but I dosnt feel they were better at applying what they knew than I was. I do know several grads from elite institutions who are amazing human beings and amazing doctors. They are so talented that they would be amazing no matter where they went to school. Unless you desire a university career and possibly have department chair aspirations,the pedigree game is overrated IMO.

 

[SteyrFWB]

Cream rises to the top. They are at the top of the tops for a reason.

They are good. Look at the MGH neurosurgery residency, they do not train just neurosurgeons; they train department chairmen/women.

Many of us just want to be doctors; most of MGH neurosurgery graduates are chairmen.

Different aspirations. They don't pooh-pooh us, we should not pooh-pooh them; "over-rated", etc.

Town is town; gown, especially top gown, is very gown. Cut off two different, but very distinct braids.

 

[Stellaartwa]

Did you apply to college at a time when the Common Application was in effect?

No, I’ve never heard of this. Maybe I’m so old my points are no longer valid. Oh the horror!

 

[Lucca]

No, I’ve never heard of this. Maybe I’m so old my points are no longer valid. Oh the horror!

Still valid. I think the information asymmetry at the Hs level is a lot more significant than it is at the postgrad/grad school level. I think that has a lot to do with the fact that postsecondary education in the US is really uneven.

I went to what I would consider as a pretty good public HS and I had absolutely no idea how to apply to university or where I should try to apply. I applied to 9 schools IIRC and formulated that list pretty shoddily at the last minute (first gen immigrant). My app also had no coherence and I was never really thinking about what kind of app I wanted to have in HS, like ever lol until end of junior year when classmates started openly talking about this apparently secret game everyone had been playing all along. Once I got to undergrad it became readily apparent that high schools are not created equal lol. Not by a long shot. Especially when it comes to preparing their students for university.

Which is a shame! Because like others have alluded to, there are opportunities for people from middle class or more modest backgrounds at so called top institutions.

 

[Philosopher Jagger]

Absolutely not.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Still valid. I think the information asymmetry at the Hs level is a lot more significant than it is at the postgrad/grad school level. I think that has a lot to do with the fact that postsecondary education in the US is really uneven.

I went to what I would consider as a pretty good public HS and I had absolutely no idea how to apply to university or where I should try to apply. I applied to 9 schools IIRC and formulated that list pretty shoddily at the last minute (first gen immigrant). My app also had no coherence and I was never really thinking about what kind of app I wanted to have in HS, like ever lol until end of junior year when classmates started openly talking about this apparently secret game everyone had been playing all along. Once I got to undergrad it became readily apparent that high schools are not created equal lol. Not by a long shot. Especially when it comes to preparing their students for university.

Which is a shame! Because like others have alluded to, there are opportunities for people from middle class or more modest backgrounds at so called top institutions.

Even pretty good public high schools, unless they're primarily geared toward the gifted and talented or high level STEM, don't hold a candle to a good private high school in terms of curriculum, extracurriculars (including athletics), advising and opportunities to get to know teachers. I think the same holds true to a somewhat lesser extent with respect to private T20 universities v flagship state universities.