Does class rank matter at all for DOs?

[gergles]

So just gonna lay out the obvious here mainly because if I don't I feel like the conversation will inevitably devolve into: pass classes, do well on boards. NRMP data obviously puts boards as the most important factor in every specialty. Class rank/Percentile is also typically in the top 5 factors for a bunch of specialties. Even for specialties like IM and anesthesia its basically tied with 3rd year grades and Dean's letter.

I would like some input or opinion on how much it matters for DOs relative to MDs. When a PD is looking at an applicant from a DO school do they simply view class rank as meaningless/useless data because they aren't familiar with the program? More generally I guess I'm asking is can we say the PD survey data applies equally to MD and DO applicants?

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[Rekt]

So just gonna lay out the obvious here mainly because if I don't I feel like the conversation will inevitably devolve into: pass classes, do well on boards. NRMP data obviously puts boards as the most important factor in every specialty. Class rank/Percentile is also typically in the top 5 factors for a bunch of specialties. Even for specialties like IM and anesthesia its basically tied with 3rd year grades and Dean's letter.

I would like some input or opinion on how much it matters for DOs relative to MDs. When a PD is looking at an applicant from a DO school do they simply view class rank as meaningless/useless data because they aren't familiar with the program? More generally I guess I'm asking is can we say the PD survey data applies equally to MD and DO applicants?

It matters in my opinion. It's part of a larger profile. How well I did academically was mentioned at about 3/4ths my interviews at least. As for relative to MD? An MD can be last in class and is percieved to be better than you. Just how it is.

 

[Chibucks15]

I've always been told it helps you if you're in top x % (top quartile/third or whatever), doesn't matter if you're in the middle 1/2, and hurts you if youre in the bottom quartile/third. All of this is pretty regional and specialty specific though.

A DO trying to get into NYC or Boston to a decent program needs to be top everything, but if you're okay with chillin in Texas/Kansas, etc probably not as important

 

[alprazoslam]

Matters but less than boards and third year grades

 

[IntheClouds4ever]

Regional and speciality specific.. generally lower on the list, though, if you have board scores proving you aren’t just coasting along

 

[NecrotizingFasciitis]

I've always been told it helps you if you're in top x % (top quartile/third or whatever), doesn't matter if you're in the middle 1/2, and hurts you if youre in the bottom quartile/third. All of this is pretty regional and specialty specific though.

A DO trying to get into NYC or Boston to a decent program needs to be top everything, but if you're okay with chillin in Texas/Kansas, etc probably not as important

Texas and Kansas both have strong/well renowned medical programs/healthcare systems (KU med, UT southwestern) c'mon now.

That being said, shoot for top 1/3 if you can; won't ever hurt you. But if you're not gunning for academic programs or something hyper-comptative (derm/NSG/etc.) then honestly it doesn't matter at all (assuming your board scores & LORs are good.)

 

[Chibucks15]

Texas and Kansas both have strong/well renowned medical programs/healthcare systems (KU med, UT southwestern) c'mon now!

That being said, shoot for top 1/3 if you can; won't ever hurt you. But if you're not gunning for academic programs or something hyper-comptative (derm/NSG/etc.) then honestly it doesn't matter at all (assuming your board scores & LORs are good.)

I was talking about being in a certain region not specific programs. I would’ve used the names if I was talking programs.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Just look at the PD survey. It plays a minor factor but nothing compared to Boards, clinical grades, LORs etc. just anecdotally I know a few people with SSP (DO honors) and they basically all said it never once came up in their interviews.

 

[jd1031]

It matters but not as much as board scores and LORs. Even 3rd year clinical rotation grades matter more.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

...and I have been told that third year grades don't matter as well. Just do your damn best at everything you do. That way you won't short yourself.

 

[gergles]

Just look at the PD survey. It plays a minor factor but nothing compared to Boards, clinical grades, LORs etc. just anecdotally I know a few people with SSP (DO honors) and they basically all said it never once came up in their interviews.

It matters but not as much as board scores and LORs. Even 3rd year clinical rotation grades matter more.

I did the one for IM puts as slightly more important than 3rd year grades. SSP is related to, but not the samething as class rank. The point of this thread was trying to get some input on whether it matters to the same degree that it does for USMD applicants.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Just look at the PD surgery. It plays a minor factor but nothing compared to Boards, clinical grades, LORs etc. just anecdotally I know a few people with SSP (DO honors) and they basically all said it never once came up in their interviews.

I did the one for IM puts as slightly more important than 3rd year grades. SSP is related to, but not the samething as class rank. The point of this thread was trying to get some input on whether it matters to the same degree that it does for USMD applicants.

in terms of comparing us to MD applicants grades matter less most likely. MD PDs don’t know how DO schools grade or what the reqs are for honors or how they rank applicant. They are gunna look at that board score. But if that’s good then have high rank can only help but an average rank probably won’t hurt as long as your boards are good

 

[libertyyne]

I did the one for IM puts as slightly more important than 3rd year grades. SSP is related to, but not the samething as class rank. The point of this thread was trying to get some input on whether it matters to the same degree that it does for USMD applicants.

If it matters for MD's it matters for DOs as well.

in terms of comparing us to MD applicants grades matter less most likely. MD PDs don’t know how DO schools grade or what the reqs are for honors or how they rank applicant. They are gunna look at that board score. But if that’s good then have high rank can only help but an average rank probably won’t hurt as long as your boards are good

If this was correct they wouldnt be able to tell grades in regards to MD schools either considering AOA and honors criteria are different at each school.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

If it matters for MD's it matters for DOs as well.

If this was correct they wouldnt be able to tell grades in regards to MD schools either considering AOA and honors criteria are different at each school.

They aren’t that’s why grades are becoming less and less of a factor bc it varies so widely between school. Some schools don’t even rank until clinical years. And also just bc it matters for MDs does not mean it matter for DOs. AOA is a perfect example. That can play a large role in your app but having SSP as a DO doesnt. It’s even less familiar for MD PDs

 

[libertyyne]

They aren’t that’s why grades are becoming less and less of a factor bc it varies so widely between school. Some schools don’t even rank until clinical years. And also just bc it matters for MDs does not mean it matter for DOs. AOA is a perfect example. That can play a large role in your app but having SSP as a DO doesnt. It’s even less familiar for MD PDs

If i have two similar candidates with equivalent scores, research and letters what do you think I will go to next to extend interviews? At this level everything will be used to stratify if it is available. This is the reason why MD schools have gone to P/F.

If it matters for MDs and OP is applying to traditionally ACGME programs then ti will matter for OP as well.

It doesnt matter a whole lot , but saying it doesnt matter because you are a DO is weird considering it would matter as an MD.

 

[Rekt]

in terms of comparing us to MD applicants grades matter less most likely. MD PDs don’t know how DO schools grade or what the reqs are for honors or how they rank applicant. They are gunna look at that board score. But if that’s good then have high rank can only help but an average rank probably won’t hurt as long as your boards are good

What? This is opposite. A class rank standardizes students. If they look at unranked students and they all have As and a couple B's that doesnt mean crap if that's what everyone has. But seeing 10/175 or whatever then it makes whatever the grades are irrelevant. It could be graded in Stanley Nickels and Schrute Bucks and if it's ranked it doesn't matter.

 

[Chibucks15]

Talking in absolutes on either side is not a functional way of doing things. Yes it matters, but it isn't something that will make or break you in most specialties. Obviously like I said before regions will be harder to get into in some places but most people I've talked to say as long as you're not in the bottom you can make up for it. While obviously its awesome and will help you if you're top 10 in the class or whatever, somebody has to be in the bottom 25% of every class and if none of those people ever matched what they wanted to we'd all hear about it. Sometimes it requires a bit of a change of heart because good luck with derm or things like that from the bottom of the class. Do as best you can and let the chips fall where they may. Sometimes all you can be is average.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Maybe at your home programs?

 

[gergles]

Talking in absolutes on either side is not a functional way of doing things. Yes it matters, but it isn't something that will make or break you in most specialties. Obviously like I said before regions will be harder to get into in some places but most people I've talked to say as long as you're not in the bottom you can make up for it. While obviously its awesome and will help you if you're top 10 in the class or whatever, somebody has to be in the bottom 25% of every class and if none of those people ever matched what they wanted to we'd all hear about it. Sometimes it requires a bit of a change of heart because good luck with derm or things like that from the bottom of the class. Do as best you can and let the chips fall where they may. Sometimes all you can be is average.

besides NYC and boston what other regions does it tend to matter more in?

 

[Chibucks15]

besides NYC and boston what other regions does it tend to matter more in?

Cali, any of the major metros, places with massive medical centers, etc. the places that everyone and their brother wants to go

 

[Robotfishbrain]

What? This is opposite. A class rank standardizes students. If they look at unranked students and they all have As and a couple B's that doesnt mean crap if that's what everyone has. But seeing 10/175 or whatever then it makes whatever the grades are irrelevant. It could be graded in Stanley Nickels and Schrute Bucks and if it's ranked it doesn't matter.

I think you have the wrong definition of standardized. The only thing that standardizes applicants is boards. PDs I've spoken to say first and second year grades are a crap shoot because they cannot tell how easy or hard a given block was (minus their own programs of course). More and more schools are not disclosing class rank, and that would potentially hurt applicants from those schools at no fault of their own. The consensus I have gathered is that third year LORs and grades are much more applicable to residencies because it shows how you are using medical knowledge. These are notes I took speaking with PDs in Ohio and Illinois so take all this within context.

 

[Giovanotto]

I think you have the wrong definition of standardized. The only thing that standardizes applicants is boards. PDs I've spoken to say first and second year grades are a crap shoot because they cannot tell how easy or hard a given block was (minus their own programs of course). More and more schools are not disclosing class rank, and that would potentially hurt applicants from those schools at no fault of their own. The consensus I have gathered is that third year LORs and grades are much more applicable to residencies because it shows how you are using medical knowledge. These are notes I took speaking with PDs in Ohio and Illinois so take all this within context.

Just lol. third year is infinitely more subjective than years 1 and 2.

 

[Isoval]

Class rank matters exactly as much here as it does for our allopathic counterparts.

That is to say, preclinical means very little and clinical means the world and a half.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Honestly, I don't think that third year grades mean crap in the grand scheme of things.

Basically, if you HP/H every clinical rotation with that one special LP/P during your third year, you're in a very solid position.

As a DO, it gets tricky once you have 3 or more Ps during your third year.

 

[Chibucks15]

Then there are some schools that only rank pre-clinicals. Which to me doesn't make sense but it is what it is. I know people at my school that are 3rd quartile that I know will do better on the wards then some of the super-geniuses based on personality, work ethic, etc and seeing some top of the class people interact with authority figures and/or patients can be painful sometimes. Its a dumb system but it is what it is. That's another reason why sometimes class rank moves down the list (unless you're top of the class), because schools calculate it much differently and it emphasizes different things.

At the end of the day having more things in your favor will never hurt you. Bust your butt and work, and if you end up average you end up average.

 

[popopopop]

As someone studying for boards right now, I really want to let my grades slip a few points, but the quartiles at my school are separated by a handful of questions each test. I can easily drop a quartile since we're so bunched up together. I'd much rather board review : (.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

As someone studying for boards right now, I really want to let my grades slip a few points, but the quartiles at my school are separated by a handful of questions each test. I can easily drop a quartile since we're so bunched up together. I'd much rather board review : (.

Try to do both, but if one has to slip, let it be class rank.

 

[group_theory]

My disclaimer is that every residency (and fellowship) programs have their own unique way of ranking people. So not only is it specialty specific, but also residency program specific.

At my residency program (academic university program) we weigh class rank (percentile) equally with board scores. However, a discrepancy will raise eyebrows and questions during the rank list meeting (why a high class rank but low boards? Or why such a low class rank and excellent boards?) which will prompt the committee to look deeper into your files (which is seldom a good thing)

We also look at 3rd year grades but also acknowledge that it is highly variable and at times subjective (even between attendings from the same institution) ... but we look at trends as well as comments in the MSPE to gauge how well the applicants will do clinically.

Fellowship ranking was similar in how we weigh class ranks with board scores.

If i have two similar candidates with equivalent scores, research and letters what do you think I will go to next to extend interviews? .

The hypothetical "academic twin" scenario rarely occurs ... but if it were to happen, why not extent interviews to both applicants. Usually there are multiple interview spots an if the two candidates are similar, we just invite both and judge both on their individual merits. An extra interview spot or two will not hurt and program directors do have some flexibility. Remember, the goal is to fully match the best candidates for the program.

Come rank meeting time, if everything is the same and their composite scores (which we use to initially rank applicants) are a tie - we usually refer to the comments from the interviewers (or ask the interviewers themselves if they are present at the meeting). Keep in mind that if these applicants match, we have to work with the applicant (now residents) for the next number of years (and spending long hours) so we want a good match.

 

[Chibucks15]

My disclaimer is that every residency (and fellowship) programs have their own unique way of ranking people. So not only is it specialty specific, but also residency program specific.

At my residency program (academic university program) we weigh class rank (percentile) equally with board scores. However, a discrepancy will raise eyebrows and questions during the rank list meeting (why a high class rank but low boards? Or why such a low class rank and excellent boards?) which will prompt the committee to look deeper into your files (which is seldom a good thing)

We also look at 3rd year grades but also acknowledge that it is highly variable and at times subjective (even between attendings from the same institution) ... but we look at trends as well as comments in the MSPE to gauge how well the applicants will do clinically.

Fellowship ranking was similar in how we weigh class ranks with board scores.



The hypothetical "academic twin" scenario rarely occurs ... but if it were to happen, why not extent interviews to both applicants. Usually there are multiple interview spots an if the two candidates are similar, we just invite both and judge both on their individual merits. An extra interview spot or two will not hurt and program directors do have some flexibility. Remember, the goal is to fully match the best candidates for the program.

Come rank meeting time, if everything is the same and their composite scores (which we use to initially rank applicants) are a tie - we usually refer to the comments from the interviewers (or ask the interviewers themselves if they are present at the meeting). Keep in mind that if these applicants match, we have to work with the applicant (now residents) for the next number of years (and spending long hours) so we want a good match.

So in this scenario...what if class rank is only separated by a few questions in the middle quartiles and/or the cutoffs are super high? If half the class is 'below' average but the average is a 3.6, that's a pretty high bar haha damn there is like no margin for error at a lot of DO schools then

 

[Angus Avagadro]

So in this scenario...what if class rank is only separated by a few questions in the middle quartiles and/or the cutoffs are super high? If half the class is 'below' average but the average is a 3.6, that's a pretty high bar haha damn there is like no margin for error at a lot of DO schools then

When writing a LOR, I always mention class rank, although we only mention quartile and not an actual number at my school. When I sat on the resident selection comittee , class rank was something I always looked for.

 

[Laradd]

Very speciailty specific imo but its sort of like what someone else said earlier. If your in the top X% that is good but otherwise doesnt really matter as much as boards and other stuff

 

[Mass Effect]

I agree that this is specialty specific AND person specific. I'm either the luckiest person in medicine or it truly is dependent on a ton of other factors because if you guys knew my whole story, most of you wouldn't have believed I ended up where I did in my career trajectory.

Control what you can. Study hard, do the best you can, and don't write anything off until you match. What some consider impossible is very much possible for some (albeit rare).

 

[medicineman1234]

My disclaimer is that every residency (and fellowship) programs have their own unique way of ranking people. So not only is it specialty specific, but also residency program specific.

At my residency program (academic university program) we weigh class rank (percentile) equally with board scores. However, a discrepancy will raise eyebrows and questions during the rank list meeting (why a high class rank but low boards? Or why such a low class rank and excellent boards?) which will prompt the committee to look deeper into your files (which is seldom a good thing)

We also look at 3rd year grades but also acknowledge that it is highly variable and at times subjective (even between attendings from the same institution) ... but we look at trends as well as comments in the MSPE to gauge how well the applicants will do clinically.

Fellowship ranking was similar in how we weigh class ranks with board scores.



The hypothetical "academic twin" scenario rarely occurs ... but if it were to happen, why not extent interviews to both applicants. Usually there are multiple interview spots an if the two candidates are similar, we just invite both and judge both on their individual merits. An extra interview spot or two will not hurt and program directors do have some flexibility. Remember, the goal is to fully match the best candidates for the program.

Come rank meeting time, if everything is the same and their composite scores (which we use to initially rank applicants) are a tie - we usually refer to the comments from the interviewers (or ask the interviewers themselves if they are present at the meeting). Keep in mind that if these applicants match, we have to work with the applicant (now residents) for the next number of years (and spending long hours) so we want a good match.

Hi I just wanted to ask you (or anyone else honestly) what there is to say in a situation where my rank slipped because I wanted to spend a little more time on boards studying? I was top 5% in my school where rank is numerical (not just quartiles), and I am projecting to drop to between 20-25 by the time 2nd year ends. I was doing great, but I knew that to add in boards prep, my rank would drop a little, and now I'm worried it wasn't worth the tradeoff. Averages at my school (for people who take it) are really low, and a big chunk don't even pass, so I decided that studying full time for questions that are not really covered in step 1 wasn't worth risking failure or a sub 210 step 1 score.

Is there anything I can even say if this is brought up in an interview? I don't want to downplay my school or be disrespectful, yet the downward trend cannot be positive. Not sure if a 240-245+ will make up for a drop from 5-25% (and my school does not do AOA).

 

[Neopolymath]

Hi I just wanted to ask you (or anyone else honestly) what there is to say in a situation where my rank slipped because I wanted to spend a little more time on boards studying? I was top 5% in my school where rank is numerical (not just quartiles), and I am projecting to drop to between 20-25 by the time 2nd year ends. I was doing great, but I knew that to add in boards prep, my rank would drop a little, and now I'm worried it wasn't worth the tradeoff. Averages at my school (for people who take it) are really low, and a big chunk don't even pass, so I decided that studying full time for questions that are not really covered in step 1 wasn't worth risking failure or a sub 210 step 1 score.

Is there anything I can even say if this is brought up in an interview? I don't want to downplay my school or be disrespectful, yet the downward trend cannot be positive. Not sure if a 240-245+ will make up for a drop from 5-25% (and my school does not do AOA).

Yeah, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Board scores are king and being in the top quartile is more than fine and is still a plus.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Hi I just wanted to ask you (or anyone else honestly) what there is to say in a situation where my rank slipped because I wanted to spend a little more time on boards studying? I was top 5% in my school where rank is numerical (not just quartiles), and I am projecting to drop to between 20-25 by the time 2nd year ends. I was doing great, but I knew that to add in boards prep, my rank would drop a little, and now I'm worried it wasn't worth the tradeoff. Averages at my school (for people who take it) are really low, and a big chunk don't even pass, so I decided that studying full time for questions that are not really covered in step 1 wasn't worth risking failure or a sub 210 step 1 score.

Is there anything I can even say if this is brought up in an interview? I don't want to downplay my school or be disrespectful, yet the downward trend cannot be positive. Not sure if a 240-245+ will make up for a drop from 5-25% (and my school does not do AOA).

Let me sum up your situation in two sentences.

210 Step 1 Score, DO Status, top 5%-25% or whatever = where do you do you want to go in the country for FM, Peds, and garbage community IM programs?

240+ Step 1 Score, DO Status, not bottom 25% = What specialty are you interested in?

Does that make sense?

 

[Rekt]

Let me sum up your situation in two sentences.

210 Step 1 Score, DO Status, top 5%-25% or whatever = where do you do you want to go in the country for FM, Peds, and garbage community IM programs?

240+ Step 1 Score, DO Status, not bottom 25% = What specialty are you interested in?

Does that make sense?

The near bottom of the class isn't getting >240 on Step. This argument is completely inept. Rank correlates with board scores for the vast majority of students. SDN brings out a vocal minority of people that can fall outside this. We can all guess the people in the bottom of our class. You think they're getting >240s, etc, nah. Not because any school is any good at teaching to the boards, it's because the top students know how to study.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

The near bottom of the class isn't getting >240 on Step. This argument is completely inept. Rank correlates with board scores for the vast majority of students. SDN brings out a vocal minority of people that can fall outside this. We can all guess the people in the bottom of our class. You think they're getting >240s, etc, nah. Not because any school is any good at teaching to the boards, it's because the top students know how to study.

I absolutely agree with you, but the reality is that the average med student with 220s-230s vs those with 200s-210s will have access to 90% of the specialties out there.

But we have had students averaging 90-92% gpa at my school scoring 200-210s before. Don’t be that person is my point.

 

[medicineman1234]

The near bottom of the class isn't getting >240 on Step. This argument is completely inept. Rank correlates with board scores for the vast majority of students. SDN brings out a vocal minority of people that can fall outside this. We can all guess the people in the bottom of our class. You think they're getting >240s, etc, nah. Not because any school is any good at teaching to the boards, it's because the top students know how to study.

Just been tackling it for a long time I guess and throwing out a hypothetical. 240 is my dream score which was why I had to sacrifice rank so much (top 5-20/25% is a pretty steep drop...) and I know people in classes above in top quarter not doing very well when only focusing on class. Exactly what Black Coffee said (90-92 GPA, absolute horrendous step score). I have about 6 months left until step 1 and am maybe 2/3-3/4 done with zanki/lolnotacop plus did 200 rx questions. Hoping I can finish the rest in these next 2 months maybe along with rx then either do uworld twice or kaplan plus uworld.

For sure not saying doing the above will get me a 240 but I can't see myself scoring way below the national average doing that and I think 6ish months is a decent amount of time idk. Just scared I drop my rank from something great to something not great and then also **** out a mediocre step 1 score (<220).

 

[Chibucks15]

The near bottom of the class isn't getting >240 on Step. This argument is completely inept. Rank correlates with board scores for the vast majority of students. SDN brings out a vocal minority of people that can fall outside this. We can all guess the people in the bottom of our class. You think they're getting >240s, etc, nah. Not because any school is any good at teaching to the boards, it's because the top students know how to study.

I feel like he wasn’t saying bottom of the class getting 240s...and it’s entirely plausible somebody in the middle could snag a score like that, especially with how small standard deviations at some schools are for every exam. In that case a 240 and upper third quartile (at worst) isn’t the worst spot to be in

There’s hardly ever a bottom 25 percentile getting that though I agree it’s overblown on here

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

I feel like he wasn’t saying bottom of the class getting 240s...and it’s entirely plausible somebody in the middle could snag a score like that, especially with how small standard deviations at some schools are for every exam. In that case a 240 and upper third quartile (at worst) isn’t the worst spot to be in

There’s hardly ever a bottom 25 percentile getting that though I agree it’s overblown on here

This is the typical norm at my school in term of class rank and Step 1, excluding the outliers out there:

Class rank 30%-65% = Step 1 215 - 230s (There's zero correlation bet class % in this range vs board scores; I know quite a few people in the 40% getting 230s Step 1)

Class rank 70+% = Step 1 222 - 270s (90% of 245 - 275 scorers all have GPAs % 95+% and top quartile class rank)

 

[Chibucks15]

This is the typical norm at my school in term of class rank and Step 1, excluding the outliers out there:

Class rank 30%-65% = Step 1 215 - 230s (There's zero correlation bet class % in this range vs board scores; I know quite a few people in the 40% getting 230s Step 1)

Class rank 70+% = Step 1 222 - 270s (90% of 245 - 275 scorers all have GPAs % 95+% and top quartile class rank)

Yeah sounds about right. At my school currently 3.65 is the median GPA so I’m assuming there’s some high ish scorers in that 40-50% range just from having a 3.5 haha but who knows how it’ll all stack up. We have pretty good board averages but there’s so much variation. When there’s so little margin between percentiles it gets a little ridiculous at times to try to even project based on rank alone