Does going to a low tier MD mean that you have virtually 0 chance of getting a good residency?

[ratman7]

Does it leave you with no shot at ROAD, etc even if you're among the top ranked in a low tier MD?
Does going to a low tier generally leave you with the "unwanted" residencies when it comes time for matching?
Do the physician salaries stay the same or would they be slightly less for a low tier MD who went to an "unwanted" residency?

(By unwanted, I mean the ones with lots of open spaces left for everyone else who doesn't get into the "good"/competitive ones)

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[DrBowtie]

Does it leave you with no shot at ROAD, etc even if you're among the top ranked in a low tier MD?
Does going to a low tier generally leave you with the "unwanted" residencies when it comes time for matching?
Do the physician salaries stay the same or would they be slightly less for a low tier MD who went to an "unwanted" residency?

(By unwanted, I mean the ones with lots of open spaces left for everyone else who doesn't get into the "good"/competitive ones)

No.

 

[EthylMethylMan]

How you do on the USMLE is going to be a big factor. Just because you went to Temple doesn't mean you have no chance of being as good a physician as a Harvard graduate, and residency programs know that.

 

[Mr DebtAnatomy]

Definitely not! The formula is the same regardless of the school you go to: Rock step 1, Rock your rotations, get involved with the department of your choosing, research is always a nice cherry on the top (and most do it), and find great letter writers. I think the only true advantage that top ranked schools have is that they might have access to more prestigious research mentors and letter writers. However, I have been told time and time again that it doesn't matter how prestigious the letter writer is if it's clear they don't know you well. So a great and personal letter from someone who is not considered prestigious will still get the job done.

So in short, the ROAD is still open for you.

 

[mimelim]

Does it leave you with no shot at ROAD, etc even if you're among the top ranked in a low tier MD?
Does going to a low tier generally leave you with the "unwanted" residencies when it comes time for matching?
Do the physician salaries stay the same or would they be slightly less for a low tier MD who went to an "unwanted" residency?

(By unwanted, I mean the ones with lots of open spaces left for everyone else who doesn't get into the "good"/competitive ones)

Categorically no. Even if you aren't ranked at the top of your class at a 'low tier MD', if you have strong step 1 + clinical grades + LOR, you can match any specialty. You may have a harder time matching at the top top program in a given specialty, but no doors are closed off by going to any US MD school.

 

[ridethecliche]

Look at match lists.

 

[Osteoth]

Source

 

[DermViser]

Does it leave you with no shot at ROAD, etc even if you're among the top ranked in a low tier MD?
Does going to a low tier generally leave you with the "unwanted" residencies when it comes time for matching?
Do the physician salaries stay the same or would they be slightly less for a low tier MD who went to an "unwanted" residency?

(By unwanted, I mean the ones with lots of open spaces left for everyone else who doesn't get into the "good"/competitive ones)

No.

 

[ProudMD]

My mentor went to a DO school, and his classmates became vascular surgeons, emergency trauma surgeons, radiologists, and even ophthalmologists.

So I hope this answers your question and fully addresses your concerns.

 

[DrEnderW]

FYI to OP and those reading, ROAD does not mean competitive specialties.

It stands for rads, optho, anesth, and derm. These are specialties which have an easier to control schedule and lifestyle. Rads and anesthesia aren't the most competitive.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
So I hope this answers your question and fully addresses your concerns.

Actually fwiw, when OP asks about low end MD programs and you respond that " even DO " can become vascular surgeons, etc. I don't think it really does answer his question, it just backhandedly bashes DO... This was never about DO and not sure they needed to be part of this thread. Just saying.

 

[Afford]

No. I've interviewed at schools that aren't even ranked in the US News rankings and they have med students going off to derm, vascular surgery, etc.

 

[ProudMD]

Actually fwiw, when OP asks about low end MD programs and you respond that " even DO " can become vascular surgeons, etc. I don't think it really does answer his question, it just backhandedly bashes DO... This was never about DO and not sure they needed to be part of this thread. Just saying.

That was never my intentions, and I never mentioned the word "even". Stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[ratman7]

No. I've interviewed at schools that aren't even ranked in the US News rankings and they have med students going off to derm, vascular surgery, etc.

These are probably rare cases. I doubt no more than 1-3 people get into top residencies in a given year, per school.

 

[Law2Doc]

That was never my intentions, and I never mentioned the word "even". Stop putting words in my mouth.

Um, I think you missed my point. There was no reason to ever bring up DO. You went there...

 

[Lysinee]

Um, I think you missed my point. There was no reason to ever bring up DO. You went there...

He is just answering a future question that might come up in the thread. Chill.

 

[Afford]

These are probably rare cases. I doubt no more than 1-3 people get into top residencies in a given year, per school.

What do you mean? Most US med schools only send off a couple of people a year to derm, vascular surgery, etc. In higher ranked schools, people are more likely to do residencies at more well known places and there are more people going off to more competitive specialties, but there is still a broad range of specialties.

 

[WillburCobb]

These are probably rare cases. I doubt no more than 1-3 people get into top residencies in a given year, per school.

11/64 (~17%) of last year's graduating class at my school (unranked/state school) matched into the desirable/competitive residencies you're so concerned about. That's not including rad or gas from your initial post, which as previously mentioned aren't that competitive anymore, or the students that landed solid surgery or IM spots.

 

[Lysinee]

What do you mean? Most US med schools only send off a couple of people a year to derm, vascular surgery, etc. In higher ranked schools, people are more likely to do residencies at more well known places and there are more people going off to more competitive specialties, but there is still a broad range of specialties.

Also, the numbers can be deceiving. A school with 200 students will have more matches in possible top specialties than a school with only 50 students.

 

[altblue]

Barely on topic, but why don't residencies take carrib. grads? I mean, if they kill the boards, shouldn't this mean they're well-equipped for residency anyway?

 

[DermViser]

Barely on topic, but why don't residencies take carrib. grads? I mean, if they kill the boards, shouldn't this mean they're well-equipped for residency anyway?

Bc being well-equipped for residency is more than just taking a multiple choice exam on basic sciences.

 

[WingedOx]

LCME = ROAD

/if you want it. I think I'd go homicidal if had to sit in a rads reading room all day.

 

[altblue]

Bc being well-equipped for residency is more than just taking a multiple choice exam on basic sciences.

But wouldn't a combination of good clinical grades, high boards and extra stuff be enough? Don't carrib schools rotate in the US anyway, so "quality control" would be easier?

Just curious.

 

[DermViser]

But wouldn't a combination of good clinical grades, high boards and extra stuff be enough? Don't carrib schools rotate in the US anyway, so "quality control" would be easier?

Just curious.

Bc their MS-3 rotations are often at community, non-academic hospitals which are very low in quality and teaching. It's more glorified shadowing than anything else and Program directors know this.

 

[dboyhaaan]

No, you can go to Ronald McDonald's School of Medicine or Mickey Mouse Medical College and get into virtually any residency. Going to a school outside of the U.S. is a total different story.

 

[Law2Doc]

Bc their MS-3 rotations are often at community, non-academic hospitals which are very low in quality and teaching. It's more glorified shadowing than anything else and Program directors know this.

Having been a resident who rotated through hospitals which offered core rotations to one if the popular offshore schools, I would echo that at least at those hospitals, the rotations people from offshore schools received was a very "lite" watered down version of what people in US schools get. You don't come out of those rotations ready to work on the wards. The didactic teaching was sporadic but probably borderline adequate. But the biggest problems seemed to stem from the fact that because offering these rotations was such a cash cow to these community hospitals, the hospitals cared more about making sure these students tell their peers that it was "chill and fun" than providing an intense learning experience. So no overnight call, no long hours, no being put on the spot for much of anything. students came in late, took numerous "sick days", long lunches, disappeared periodically during the day to "study". The hospital even gave them a swag bag of things with the hospital logo when they started. The resources were technically there to get good training if one was really proactive, and students could certainly stay on and actually get their hands dirty if they wanted, but I'd say maybe one student per rotation availed him/herself to that opportunity. Throughout these rotations every US educated resident at least daily ended up shaking his head and mumbling how this would never fly where they went to med school. So no, they don't get comparable rotations. They get to play tourist at some US community hospital for a month, not work particularly hard or long hours, and literally come home with a souvenir T-shirt.

 

[DermViser]

Having been a resident who rotated through hospitals which offered core rotations to one if the popular offshore schools, I would echo that at least at those hospitals, the rotations people from offshore schools received was a very "lite" watered down version of what people in US schools get. You don't come out of those rotations ready to work on the wards. The didactic teaching was sporadic but probably borderline adequate. But the biggest problems seemed to stem from the fact that because offering these rotations was such a cash cow to these community hospitals, the hospitals cared more about making sure these students tell their peers that it was "chill and fun" than providing an intense learning experience. So no overnight call, no long hours, no being put on the spot for much of anything. students came in late, took numerous "sick days", long lunches, disappeared periodically during the day to "study". The hospital even gave them a swag bag of things with the hospital logo when they started. The resources were technically there to get good training if one was really proactive, and students could certainly stay on and actually get their hands dirty if they wanted, but I'd say maybe one student per rotation availed him/herself to that opportunity. Throughout these rotations every US educated resident at least daily ended up shaking his head and mumbling how this would never fly where they went to med school. So no, they don't get comparable rotations. They get to play tourist at some US community hospital for a month, not work particularly hard or long hours, and literally come home with a souvenir T-shirt.

The worst part in the entire thing is the Caribbean medical student is misled and comes away from the rotation believing it wasn't so bad after all and that it is realistic of what actual medicine will be like when they are a starting intern with actual responsibility. And it isn't until they start as interns that they realize that their medical school did them a HUGE disservice to them but by then the med school got its cut and has scampered away and the intern is left to fend for themselves. Your internship or categorical residency and your upper levels aren't going to teach you how to do a proper history and physical. They just won't. Your residency starts evaluating you from July 1.

This isn't to say there aren't stellar Caribbean students who are proactive and get their hands dirty. But Doing a history and proper physical takes time. It's not something you just pick up by memorizing lines out of review books and answering multiple choice questions or by seeing your resident do it. A commonly fallacy is that the end point of a clerkship is an NBME shelf exam. There is not a magic switch that just happens when intern year starts and the workload really expands from MS-3 year.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

No.

Agree.

/thread

 

[BurbyPrep89]

To answer the OPs question, I believe the match list of a school may indicate the possibility of getting into a particular residency program from a school. The probability of any individual student getting in seems largely dependent on that student.

I was discussing this with someone yesterday and she mentioned that it might also be that whereas some medical schools seem to favour particular undergraduate programs - possibly because they "get to" list those schools in their brochures, residency programs don't have the equivalent in a "oh look how many Harvard med students we have..." (Is this true?)

Two cents

 

[Law2Doc]

To answer the OPs question, I believe the match list of a school may indicate the possibility of getting into a particular residency program from a school. The probability of any individual student getting in seems largely dependent on that student.

I was discussing this with someone yesterday and she mentioned that it might also be that whereas some medical schools seem to favour particular undergraduate programs - possibly because they "get to" list those schools in their brochures, residency programs don't have the equivalent in a "oh look how many Harvard med students we have..." (Is this true?)

Two cents

First, I'm pretty skeptical of the ability of a premed to read a match list usefully. You don't necessarilly know which programs are good in which specialties, and won't know whether nobody going to derm from a given school means no one got it versus no one wanted it. At most schools some of the top graduates go into IM or surgery instead of some of the more competitive specialties. So is a program with ten people going into radiology better than one where ten people chose IM over radiology? Finally you don't really know the geographic and family limitations of med school grads so you are speculating that they got the best they could but that is often not true. Finally you can't really get into the heads of the applicants from a list. A list may objectively look good but really reflect that nobody got their first, second, third choice. While at another school the list may look average but in fact everyone is ecstatic that they got their first choice. So it really depends too much on the goals of people you've never met to evaluate these.

Second, as to how residencies value applicants , it's rarely based on school. Some PDs like high step 1 scores. Others like a lot of AOA honors people. But in terms of school it's mostly an issue of track record -- we took two residents from school X the past two years and they were clinically weak so we won't interview the people from X again. But we took a guy from Y last year and he was really good so let's keep our eyes open for more applicants from Y. And we've ranked people from Z highly the last few years but they never come here so maybe we should give the interview slot to someone else. And so on. That's how your school factors in -- the track record of recent grads. Not the name.

 

[DermViser]

First, I'm pretty skeptical of the ability of a premed to read a match list usefully. You don't necessarilly know which programs are good in which specialties, and won't know whether nobody going to derm from a given school means no one got it versus no one wanted it. At most schools some of the top graduates go into IM or surgery instead of some of the more competitive specialties. So is a program with ten people going into radiology better than one where ten people chose IM over radiology? Finally you don't really know the geographic and family limitations of med school grads so you are speculating that they got the best they could but that is often not true. Finally you can't really get into the heads of the applicants from a list. A list may objectively look good but really reflect that nobody got their first, second, third choice. While at another school the list may look average but in fact everyone is ecstatic that they got their first choice. So it really depends too much on the goals of people you've never met to evaluate these.

Second, as to how residencies value applicants , it's rarely based on school. Some PDs like high step 1 scores. Others like a lot of AOA honors people. But in terms of school it's mostly an issue of track record -- we took two residents from school X the past two years and they were clinically weak so we won't interview the people from X again. But we took a guy from Y last year and he was really good so let's keep our eyes open for more applicants from Y. And we've ranked people from Z highly the last few years but they never come here so maybe we should give the interview slot to someone else. And so on. That's how your school factors in -- the track record of recent grads. Not the name.

Very true. At Wash U, in their IM program, a huge majority of the residents on their roster are AOA members (the ones not from Wash U), esp. those from public state and mid-to-low tier med schools. Any one of them could have gone for something that is deemed more "competitive" by the SDN crowd. But they didn't. They wanted IM and will most likely are aiming for a subspecialty.

As a student, it's hard to attribute motivations as to why someone chose a specialty based on just looking at a list. People going for IM know that they have much more geographic flexibility than someone going for ENT, for example. That being said, it's better to look over several lists not just one. If someone hasn't matched into derm over 7-8 years of match lists there is likely a reason, although it may not be the reason you think it is (i.e. not having a home derm program, applying to derm but also applying to a backup specialty as well, etc.).

You're definitely correct about certain students from a school never recruited from before who match can make or break for students later who apply. If it's the latter, then programs will be much more wary to recruit from there again, unless that person audition rotates.

 

[BurbyPrep89]

First, I'm pretty skeptical of the ability of a premed to read a match list usefully. You don't necessarilly know which programs are good in which specialties, and won't know whether nobody going to derm from a given school means no one got it versus no one wanted it. At most schools some of the top graduates go into IM or surgery instead of some of the more competitive specialties. So is a program with ten people going into radiology better than one where ten people chose IM over radiology? Finally you don't really know the geographic and family limitations of med school grads so you are speculating that they got the best they could but that is often not true. Finally you can't really get into the heads of the applicants from a list. A list may objectively look good but really reflect that nobody got their first, second, third choice. While at another school the list may look average but in fact everyone is ecstatic that they got their first choice. So it really depends too much on the goals of people you've never met to evaluate these.

Second, as to how residencies value applicants , it's rarely based on school. Some PDs like high step 1 scores. Others like a lot of AOA honors people. But in terms of school it's mostly an issue of track record -- we took two residents from school X the past two years and they were clinically weak so we won't interview the people from X again. But we took a guy from Y last year and he was really good so let's keep our eyes open for more applicants from Y. And we've ranked people from Z highly the last few years but they never come here so maybe we should give the interview slot to someone else. And so on. That's how your school factors in -- the track record of recent grads. Not the name.

To your first point, I suppose one would have to do a lot of research and ask a lot of people who have gone through the process. A pre-med from a family of doctors, working in a hospital and coming from a school with a strong pre-med program (including supportive alumni), would probably have a better perspective than one who didn't have that background, on the usefulness of a match list. And the latter could always come on SDN and ask, "hey guys, how does a match list work?" And I have no doubt he/she would get a lot of (mostly) valuable information. I find it tedious, this constant need to declare an entire group ignorant before sharing wisdom which everyone appreciates.

To your second point, thank you for clarifying this! This is actually something that I wouldn't have found out if not for your sharing this information and is one of the reasons I appreciate this forum.

 

[DermViser]

To your first point, I suppose one would have to do a lot of research and ask a lot of people who have gone through the process. A pre-med from a family of doctors, working in a hospital and coming from a school with a strong pre-med program (including supportive alumni), would probably have a better perspective than one who didn't have that background, on the usefulness of a match list.

No they wouldn't, and here's why: Programs change when evaluated from when their parents were in residency to now. Heck residencies can change in competitiveness even within a span of a few years. Perfect example -- USC's IM residency program which used to recruit nearly all IMGs and now is all US graduates. Coming from a "strong-premed program" is completely irrelevant in terms of being able to decode match lists. Same with the Cleveland Clinic and its IM program. So no, a premed with that a medicine "pedigree" would have no more of a leg up than one who doesn't. It isn't until you experience third year, do audition rotations, talk with MS-3s/MS-4s in interest groups meetings, etc. when you see where people match and why people match where they do (being close to family, couples matching, were they AOA or MD/PhD, etc.) that it makes much more sense.

 

[BurbyPrep89]

No they wouldn't, and here's why: Programs change when evaluated from when their parents were in residency to now. Heck residencies can change in competitiveness even within a span of a few years. Perfect example -- USC's IM residency program which used to recruit nearly all IMGs and now is all US graduates. Coming from a "strong-premed program" is completely irrelevant in terms of being able to decode match lists. Same with the Cleveland Clinic and its IM program. So no, a premed with that a medicine "pedigree" would have no more of a leg up than one who doesn't. It isn't until you experience third year, do audition rotations, talk with MS-3s/MS-4s in interest groups meetings, etc. when you see where people match and why people match where they do (being close to family, couples matching, were they AOA or MD/PhD, etc.) that it makes much more sense.

Ahhh glad to see you chime in, dear sir!

If anyone wanted to understand all the above anyone could ask and someone would know. He/she could ask every year if he/she wanted to. They could ask what trends are showing up. Also, all of what you typed is actually How A Match List works. It is dynamic and the result of several factors, and is not necessarily predictive of what an applicant's chances will be. Which is something anyone could learn.

So now I know! Because Dermie told me so!

Ever Grateful,

OME

 

[Instatewaiter]

These are probably rare cases. I doubt no more than 1-3 people get into top residencies in a given year, per school.

This last year vcu sent ~15% of their class to competitive specialties (neuro surg, ortho, ophtho, ENT, uro, derm and plastics). This doesn't include the equally competitive matches to places like Hopkins for IM and peds and doesn't include rads or anesthesia which have become less competitive in the last few years.

Where you go to school does matter but less than you think. Is it better to go to Harvard than GW sure. But if you are a strong student your chances are good from any medical school.

 

[DermViser]

Ahhh glad to see you chime in, dear sir!

If anyone wanted to understand all the above anyone could ask and someone would know. He/she could ask every year if he/she wanted to. They could ask what trends are showing up. Also, all of what you typed is actually How A Match List works. It is dynamic and the result of several factors, and is not necessarily predictive of what an applicant's chances will be. Which is something anyone could learn.

So now I know! Because Dermie told me so!

Ever Grateful,

OME

There's a difference between asking someone and then being told and actually understanding why. Anything can be learned. What medical school gives you is context. You can ask as much as you want as a premed, it doesn't mean you'll understand why until you're doing rotations yourself, or unless you've talked to people who've matched. While one match list isn't clairvoyant, it also shows you how everyone did - both those at the top of the class, in the middle, and at the bottom. Just bc you go to a low tier school and are at the top of your class, doesn't entitle you to get an interview and match at IM at the Brigham. PDs know that all medical schools are not alike and that certain schools send out high caliber graduates.

It's analogous to those people who ask why Caribbean school graduates don't match as well even though they may have higher USMLE Step 1 scores. It's bc medical education is so much more than just USMLE Step 1 scores and PDs know this. You could very well ask for several years of match lists and see the trends with respect to how many people match in certain specialty. Wash U has it right here, for example, for each specialty and for the past 6 years: http://residency.wustl.edu/Residencies/WUSMMatch/Pages/Home.aspx

 

[DermViser]

This last year vcu sent ~15% of their class to competitive specialties (neuro surg, ortho, ophtho, ENT, uro, derm and plastics). This doesn't include the equally competitive matches to places like Hopkins for IM and peds and doesn't include rads or anesthesia which have become less competitive in the last few years.

I wonder if this is more just unnecessary handwringing bc anything less than Radiology at BWH, MGH, UCSF, JHU, WUSTL is considered a failure on SDN. As if doing Radiology at the University of Colorado or Emory would be pitiful.

 

[WingedOx]

I wonder if this is more just unnecessary handwringing bc anything less than Radiology at BWH, MGH, UCSF, JHU, WUSTL is considered a failure on SDN. As if doing Radiology at the University of Colorado or Emory would be pitiful.

Emory? Ugh, yeah, Living in Atlanta would be painful...

 

[DermViser]

Emory? Ugh, yeah, Living in Atlanta would be painful...

lol. More about the program than the city. Just saying, perspective tends to get lost here quite a bit, when people say Radiology is no longer competitive.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I wonder if this is more just unnecessary handwringing bc anything less than Radiology at BWH, MGH, UCSF, JHU, WUSTL is considered a failure on SDN. As if doing Radiology at the University of Colorado or Emory would be pitiful.

I couldn't do radiology even in Hawaii personally but different strokes for different folks.

Personally I think Atlanta would be nice to live in. It's warm and cost of living seems cheap. Every time my wife turns on one of those hgtv tv shows (it's my wife I swear) the people in Atlanta get a 4 bedroom house for like 125k. It's obscene. A doctors salary could go a long way.

 

[WingedOx]

lol. More about the program than the city. Just saying, perspective tends to get lost here quite a bit, when people say Radiology is no longer competitive.

I just like mocking cities that aren't cold enough to keep the jerks out... (I mean, have you MET people from Miami? ewww)

But yeah, I'm in a specialty that's not known for being competitive (though one of the better programs), and I'm interviewing applicants with REALLY impressive CVs.

The "look at the match list" advice is some of the worst that's given out on SDN. Unless you're in that specialty, you have no idea what is or isn't a good program. My own institution have some specialties that are absolutely top tier, and some that are training residents with faculty that are downright awful clinicians. There are hospitals where having a BS or MD on your wall from them would make people go "wow" but happen to be really poor in certain residencies.

 

[DermViser]

I couldn't do radiology even in Hawaii personally but different strokes for different folks.

Personally I think Atlanta would be nice to live in. It's warm and cost of living seems cheap. Everything my wife turns on one of those hgtv tv shows (it's my wife I swear) the people in Atlanta get a 4 bedroom house for like 125k. It's obscene. A doctors salary could go a long way.

It's just funny to me when SDN continues to say that Radiology is no longer competitive. People in that field have been doing fellowships for years just bc of the huge amount of information in that field. Of course the people who I knew going into Rads, liked it specifically bc they wouldn't have to deal with everything involved in patient care: writing notes, dealing with difficult patients, updating families, etc. They liked the direct medicine from an intellectual perspective only and wanted to just read, write the reports, and deal with consultants calling about reads. The ones who go in bc they're expecting $500 K salaries will be disappointed.

I feel the same way. For me I've never understood why people LOVE living in NYC. There are many excellent cities in the U.S. in which you can own a very nice house at a great price, live in great suburbs, great places to eat and have fun etc. and your paycheck goes so much farther for the same things.

 

[DermViser]

I just like mocking cities that aren't cold enough to keep the jerks out... (I mean, have you MET people from Miami? ewww)

But yeah, I'm in a specialty that's not known for being competitive (though one of the better programs), and I'm interviewing applicants with REALLY impressive CVs.

The "look at the match list" advice is some of the worst that's given out on SDN. Unless you're in that specialty, you have no idea what is or isn't a good program. My own institution have some specialties that are absolutely top tier, and some that are training residents with faculty that are downright awful clinicians. There are hospitals where having a BS or MD on your wall from them would make people go "wow" but happen to be really poor in certain residencies.

Yup, unless you're "in the know" by being at that med school, you won't see those things, you don't have a proper filter to evaluate it properly. For example, Wash U has a PM&R program (which nearly no one at Wash U goes for) they are nearly all IMGs. It's bc the good PM&R programs are at places like RIC (Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago) with Northwestern. Programs are counting that name-brand appeal will save the day, when most med students by the time they hit MS-4 are very discerning (mainly bc they've been lied to by medical admin faculty for so long. lol).

 

[WingedOx]

Yup, unless you're "in the know" by being at that med school, you won't see those things, you don't have a proper filter to evaluate it properly. For example, Wash U has a PM&R program (which nearly no one at Wash U goes for) they are nearly all IMGs. It's bc the good PM&R programs are at places like RIC (Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago) with Northwestern. Programs are counting that name-brand appeal will save the day, when most med students by the time they hit MS-4 are very discerning (mainly bc they've been lied to by medical admin faculty for so long. lol).

Hell most MDs I know don't even know what PMnR does. For fun, I took a rehab elective as a 4th year, and the residents/attendings were all confused by the fact there was a med student rotating with them who wasn't going into the specialty.

 

[DermViser]

Hell most MDs I know don't even know what PMnR does. For fun, I took a rehab elective as a 4th year, and the residents/attendings were all confused by the fact there was a med student rotating with them who wasn't going into the specialty.

Or the name "physiatry" which sounds like "physiology".

 

[Law2Doc]

... I find it tedious, this constant need to declare an entire group ignorant before sharing wisdom which everyone appreciates... )

To be fair, I looked at match lists when I was a premed, thought I had a clue, and years later in med school realized I was only fooling myself. So I'm not declaring a group ignorant that I wasn't at one time included in. I understood squat about match motivations. Now I know better and if I could go back I'd throw those lists in the garbage as not particularly useful.

even now I'd be totally guessing whether a Match in a specialty outside of my own was a good one. I don't know the hidden gems, rising stars, places to avoid, in other fields the way I do in my own. It's all word of mouth - once you pick a field, which is a very personal decision, you sit down with a mentor who is plugged in in the field and try to get the skinny. And then you weigh that information in with your own stats and geographic limitations and personal career goals and motivations, and figure out where you want to apply. It's rarely going to jibe with the path that will look best to a premed looking at a list. But so what -- it's the rest of your life and your goal is personal career satisfaction, not looking better on some list. You choose what you want and where, for your own reasons, not the most competitive thing you can get with your stats. So thus if you get your first choice you will and should be ecstatic, even if some premed looking at a list maybe doesn't understand your reasons and looks down on the choice. That's the rub-- What does the list really tell you? It tells you the end result, not if that was a subjectively good result or a Bad one. it's a lot like coming into the last minute of some Movie and trying to extrapolate if the story was a happy one or a sad one. Usually without more context you can't tell. The match list is that last minute. Without more context, odds are pretty good that you are going to guess wrong.