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does going to top tier undergrad school count?

Discussion in 'What Are My Chances?' started by ilubse7en, Jan 7, 2009.

  1. ilubse7en

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    hi, i just found this website and i need all the help i can get~~
    i am senior and graduating, but i live in cali, and went to well, a very nice but difficult school, okay, i went to berkeley.
    well, i got some C+s, on prereq courses, and non prereq course too.
    problem is, berkeley don't let you retake courses C- or higher.
    i am studying for MCAt right now,
    i took about 35 units on city college on some prereq courses but mostly sociology and stuff.
    i have accumulative of 3.25 GPA, but only GPA of 3.0 on berkeley transcript
    my question is, if i have high MCAt,
    you think i have chances at Medical school?
    i have hospital experience and research experience
     
  2. Hippias

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    If you have an upward trend in your classes, that might help. Even with great ECs, a 3.0 gpa is pretty hard to explain, not that it's impossible. But it is a bit of a long shot.

    Not to be harsh, but I don't think you will get in right away. Work on getting some stellar ECs next year, and maybe think about a masters.
     
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  3. Catalystik

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    A regular masters degree will not raise your undergrad GPA, and that is the number adcomms look at. If you can get a very high MCAT (37+), maybe a few med schools would consider you, but you'd be better off graduating, then doing a two-year unofficial postbac elsewhere to raise your undergrad GPA. There you could repeat some of those classes where you got low grades. Even if you are considered because your MCAT is sterling, med schools will still prefer to see 1.5 years of very high grades to assure them you'd do well in med school studies.
     
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  4. dragonfly99

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    The low GPA and C's in science courses will hurt you. Consider there are other applicants who also went to top tier schools like yours but aced those classes...or went to some easier school and aced those classes. B+ grades might be forgiven or a few B's, but the C's are bad. The cumulative GPA also isn't good.

    DO schools tend to be more lenient r.e. the GPA, so that might be an option.
     
  5. Mobius1985

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    To answer your title question: No, it will not help enough to make a difference for you. You'll need to repair that low GPA.
     
  6. ilubse7en

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    so, after thorough researching at this site, i decided to take 40 units at state university (retake C classes and couple more classes) to raise my GPA,
    i think i could raise it up to 3.4 (still low i know, but better than now)
    i am taking MCAt on 5/2,
    i was wondering, if i do one year of unofficial postbac, and apply next cycle, would my MCAT score be valid? (2010),
    how about 2011?
    if i take mcat may 2009, when does it expire?
     
  7. drareg

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    dude i know what you mean about berkeley . it sucks here, i have had no life the last 3 years maintaining my gpa . the problem is that there ARE students that go here and do well ... more students than there are spots for in med school . i am going to be honest and say that your chances of getting in are very low. i would do alot of post bac and SHINE with my EC and PS. I started an organization, i can def help you out if you wana pm me. peace
     
  8. drizzt3117

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    Proficiency in the English language might also help in the application process.
     
  9. drareg

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    were on an online social network right?
     
  10. JstAnthrPrMd

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    I know that there are plenty of kids who do have 4.0's at these top tier schools, but I think that it would be naive to think that all gpa's are created equally. Now I don't think that each school has a certain measured difference in how their applicants are graded, but I think subjectively there is a clear distinction when people are applying from top tier schools vs. low tier schools. To put this in perspective extremely: Harvard vs. local community college. Harvard 3.3 vs. community college 4.0. Now what most people are positing here is that since the girl from harvard has a lower gpa, then she will not be as highly favored as the kid from the community college. Obviously this example is ludicrous and therefore sort of debunks the current argument. Medical schools know that the cream of the crop go to the best schools, and they know of each's various reputations. I think that there is a difference and it does make a difference where you go. I for certain know that I could have gone to my state school and gotten all A's, but I didnt' and chose to challenge myself and take my education to the highest level. I shouldn't be penalized for seeking out the best quality education, I shouldn't be penalized for going to school with peers who, for the most part are as smart and smarter than I am. This argument completely perplexes me because it's clear as day what the answer is.
     
  11. djyujin

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    I have been told by some of the admissions committee members that "difficulty of curriculum" is taken into account, and have been told more than once that for schools with notoriously difficult undergraduate curricula a certain number of GPA points are added to the applicants listed GPA on AMCAS.

    However, I think it will depend on a school by school basis and is probably something they do not advertise heavily. I have met a couple of Berkeley alumni that have gotten into medical school with around a 3.2 GPA (this was back in 2004).

    To the OP, you should definitely consider a SMP or something similar to boost your science GPA and to show that you are capable of successfully performing at the medical school level! Good luck! Feel free to PM me.
     
  12. Old ortho

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    You should apply broadly and also to DO schools.
     
  13. Naijaba

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    Hi ilubse7en,

    The MCAT exists because it is the "Great Normalizer." It indicates your ability to succeed in medical school, content-wise, as well as the academic rigor of your undergraduate institution. The average GPA for ACCEPTED undergraduates from MIT in 2007 was a 3.19/4.0, much much lower than the national average...BUT their average MCAT was 33.6, which was much higher than the national average:

    http://web.mit.edu/annualreports/pres07/01.02.pdf (Page 2)

    This indicates that, while it may have been helpful for adcomms to see MIT on their transcripts, they definitely backed it up with reputable MCAT scores. Study and do well on the MCAT.
     
  14. Midifelder10

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    Short answer: run away from tough colleges. Medical admissions committee is responsible for this crap. They covet higher GPA than rigour of UG education. MCAT though important is not the equalizer as some well meaning people state.
     
  15. BigD311

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    thats horrible advice. Dont run away from tough colleges. At the end of the day, its the tough colleges that build the strongest foundation for when you take the MCAT.

    At UVA, the Avg MCAT score of a student is a 31+...AVERAGE. I am sure that number is comparable, if not higher, for many of the strong science schools in the top tier.

    Just go on MDapplicant.com Type in an ambiguous school that is notoriously easy. I assure you that you will be pressed to find many successful applicants.

    If you think you can kick a** at an easier school, then by all means go for it. When you go to a top notch school surrounded by extremely competitive students, it only pushes you to be the top.

    I always wonder what my GPA wouldve been if I went to a much easier school and I usually think that it would be lower because I would be tempted to slack off because I wouldnt have been challenged enough.

    You say the MCAT is the applicant normalizer. I agree. Show me how 4.0s at low tiers score on their MCATs and Ill show you how 3.5s+ at a top tier score...I assure you the scores will show a correlation.

    I am not saying this holds true for everyone, but there is a reason why top undergraduate schools have their reputation. Its because they prepare students extremely well.
     
  16. tastybeef

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    To OP,

    It's just what happens to transfer students. They get easy grades at community colleges and get slaughtered at Berkeley. That's certainly too bad.
     
  17. Midifelder10

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    thats horrible advice. Dont run away from tough colleges. At the end of the day, its the tough colleges that build the strongest foundation for when you take the MCAT.

    At UVA, the Avg MCAT score of a student is a 31+...AVERAGE. I am sure that number is comparable, if not higher, for many of the strong science schools in the top tier.

    Just go on MDapplicant.com Type in an ambiguous school that is notoriously easy. I assure you that you will be pressed to find many successful applicants.

    If you think you can kick a** at an easier school, then by all means go for it. When you go to a top notch school surrounded by extremely competitive students, it only pushes you to be the top.

    I always wonder what my GPA wouldve been if I went to a much easier school and I usually think that it would be lower because I would be tempted to slack off because I wouldnt have been challenged enough.

    You say the MCAT is the applicant normalizer. I agree. Show me how 4.0s at low tiers score on their MCATs and Ill show you how 3.5s+ at a top tier score...I assure you the scores will show a correlation.

    I am not saying this holds true for everyone, but there is a reason why top undergraduate schools have their reputation. Its because they prepare students extremely well.

    No it is not. End of the day 3.9 and 31 beats 3.1 and 39. You can cry me a river that you went to tough school and GPA took a beating but no one cares. I agree with what you are saying but that is not how the process works. What you are saying is correct but what I am telling is what counts. Please by all means go to a tougher school but seems like no one will cut you too much slack for a low GPA.
     
  18. BigD311

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    Youre giving me the case of one student.

    Do all med school applicants at a low-tier school get a 3.9 and a 31?

    No...but based on the stats, its more likely that many more students in the 3.1+ range at a top tier school will have mid to high 30 MCATs than their counterparts with similar GPAs at low tier schools.

    Show me that these students are common from a low tier school, because your example is a mere exception.

    I realize I may sound elitist but the statistics dont lie.

    Besides I would be willing to argue for a Berkley student with a 3.1 and a 39 since that is a damn good MCAT score...showing he mastered his material whereas his GPA may reflect some difficult times. I wouldnt say 3.9 and a 31 beats out a 3.1 39...they would probably both be competitive.

    Your argument is weak.
     
  19. Midifelder10

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    Chances are 3.1 is auto reject.
     
  20. drizzt3117

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    Generally going to an easier school is better for admissions purposes, assuming one gets as good a foundation for the sciences, which isn't always the case. Also, not all highly regarded schools are difficult. Some of the Ivies are pretty lenient in terms of grading.
     
  21. drareg

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    again, it all goes back to this. there are students that go to harvard and berkeley that get high gpa's .... so although going to a tough undergrad helps you, its only a little tiny bit, because all they have to ask themselves is if student A went to berkeley and got a high gpa then student B shouldnt use the excuse that its a tough institition to do well in.

    Now if you are going to use this argument about having a tough undegrad than you absolutley must shine with your mcats (above 35 at least) because that will give more credability to the argument, just my two cents. good luck to you OP
     
  22. Midifelder10

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    Youre giving me the case of one student.

    Do all med school applicants at a low-tier school get a 3.9 and a 31?

    No...but based on the stats, its more likely that many more students in the 3.1+ range at a top tier school will have mid to high 30 MCATs than their counterparts with similar GPAs at low tier schools.

    Show me that these students are common from a low tier school, because your example is a mere exception.

    I realize I may sound elitist but the statistics dont lie.

    Besides I would be willing to argue for a Berkley student with a 3.1 and a 39 since that is a damn good MCAT score...showing he mastered his material whereas his GPA may reflect some difficult times. I wouldnt say 3.9 and a 31 beats out a 3.1 39...they would probably both be competitive.

    Your argument is weak.

    You are right statistics dont lie. Look at the graph floating around on the forum and you see that the case I have presented gets accepted almost 90% and the other one 50%. Not a random number but actual percentage.

    Once again I am not saying I am correct but all I am saying is that this is how it works out.
     
  23. DrYoda

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    Your lack of sources is weak.

    Edit: Ok, my bad, use the quote function.
     
    #23 DrYoda, Mar 15, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2009
  24. drizzt3117

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    please learn how to quote, it's hard to read your posts.
     
  25. Midifelder10

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    You are right statistics dont lie. Look at the graph floating around on the forum and you see that the case I have presented gets accepted almost 90% and the other one 50%. Not a random number but actual percentage.

    Once again I am not saying I am correct but all I am saying is that this is how it works out.
     
  26. drizzt3117

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    There are a number of flaws in your argument.

    It's standard SDN Dogma that high GPA low MCAT is going to be superior to high MCAT low GPA, that's not worth arguing, as you point out correctly from the graph.

    The problems with your argument are:

    1) This model lacks predictive power.

    Remember that when someone decides what college to attend, they have a 0.00 GPA. No one knows whether they're going to be a 4.0 student or a 3.0 student, no matter where they go. You don't know that you're going to get a 3.9 at a state school vs 3.3 at an Ivy.

    2) The numbers you're picking for your example are arbitrary, and picked to support your argument.

    People usually aren't a 4.0 student at one school and a 3.0 student at another. A few tenths of a point in GPA are much more realistic and when you use those #s, (comparing 3.6-3.7 with high MCAT to 3.8-3.9 with low MCAT) you start to see parity.
     
    #26 drizzt3117, Mar 15, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2009
  27. BigD311

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    thank you drizzt
     
  28. ilubse7en

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    i didn't want to stir up so much stuff, i just wanted to recycle my post,
    my new question was how much doing a year of postbac and raising my gpa from 3.2 to 3.4 help my chance and also if i take mcat this may, 2009, when it expires?
    that all,
    and also, what do you mean by english proficiency, are you making fun of my writing skills? should i do a rough draft and final draft for a post at this forum???? if you werent' making fun of my i apologize, but if you were :mad:, delete!!!
     
  29. drizzt3117

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    Sorry, I'm having some trouble understanding what you're trying to say.

    Raising your GPA by 0.2 points will help you a lot, but whether you'll get in with a 3.4 depends on your MCAT score.

    If you take it in may 2009 it will be good at least until may 2012. At some schools, it will be good for longer.
     
  30. Naijaba

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    Hi Midifelder10,

    See my post about MIT above...the average GPA for ACCEPTED applicants was a 3.19, so a 3.1 is certainly not an autoreject.
     
  31. drizzt3117

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    That's sort of an extreme example, as MIT is one of the 2-3 most difficult undergrads in the US, IME. I would say from personal experience that MIT isn't a good school to go to if your primary intent is to go to medical school. It is a great if not the best place to get an excellent education as a mathematician, electrical engineer, or computer scientist, but isn't a great place for premeds because the grading system is not at all in your favor. The difference in level of difficulty in acheiving a given grade between MIT and other schools is greater with the amount that adcoms take this level of difficulty into account, so it will tend to hurt your chances.
     
  32. Midifelder10

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    Now if I read your arguement you are saying that you end up with a lower GPA at MIT so it is not worth going to.

    I gave two extremes of the graph but the trend favors high GPA over high MCAT. That is the actual data no bias.

    Depending on the state school they could be ball busters. Berkeley, Tech MIT will crush your GPA whereas IVY's maynot. A good state school with engg. curriculum and grading on the curve will not be your friend. Are you a better student , yes you are but that is what I am not arguing.

    Once again looking at the graph the numbers that pop out are high GPA + moderate MCAT > low GPA + high MCAT.

    I personally think MCAT should be the only factor not the GPA but I dont count.
     
  33. Midifelder10

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    (1) Yes it does not have predictive power but it does show what happened previously. Will things change dramatically next year - who knows but chances are they will not.

    (2) You got to be kidding. I have seen a spread of 0.8 easy vs hard school. Not scientific but personally.
     
  34. BigD311

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    Another side to this argument has to do with backup plans. If you don't get into medical school from a top-tier, at least you have the solid degree rep to fall back on.
     
  35. drizzt3117

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    That's not what I said at all. I said that it's not a good idea to go there if you're premed because:

    1) The grading system isn't in your favor. MIT grades on a strict curve and has no grade inflation so the average GPAs will be lower. It's possible to get honors/dean's list level GPAs while being in the low 3.0 range. Medical schools do realize that about the grading system(as per the statistics that the other poster listed) that people there generally have lower GPAs and you get some leeway. Personally I don't think it matches up with the level of difficulty.

    2) There aren't too many premedical students there, so you have relatively little support. You'll be able to find research experience easily, but you'll have to go out of your way to get clinical experiences, and they will be with people from different institutions than your own. That isn't THAT big a deal in a city as small and easy to get around as Boston, but it is what it is.

    3) Following up on 2, most students that go to MIT (myself included) went there because they wanted to pursue a different career than medicine. MIT grads have access to a great alumni network, fabulous education in the sciences, and have great opportunities to engineering and science jobs with just a bachelors degree in many cases. I got a position in strategy consulting immediately after graduation with little trouble.

    Looking at the graph we see that at a MCAT score of 3.9/31 that someone with a 3.7/34 would have just about the same chances, as would someone with a 3.4+/39+ and even someone with a 3.1+/39+ isn't too far off.

    I don't think going to Cal immediately crushes your GPA. Look at the GPAs you need to get summa cum laude at Cal (3.95) Clearly SOME people graduate with those GPAs, otherwise no one would ever graduate with highest honors, and I'd imagine they'd adjust that downwards.

    To be honest, the number that pops out to me is that people with low GPA (~3.2) and high MCAT (39+) still have a ~80% acceptance rate.

    That has no bearing on how a specific student would behave.

    Unless you could somehow go to both schools at the same point in time in your life, and know what you would get, you will never know how someone should have done at another school. Let's say they transferred and did better, that doesn't mean anything because they're at a different point in their life. The tough part about decisions is that you don't know how they will turn out before you make them.
     
  36. BigD311

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    a finely crafted argument.

    basically, i think the OP can get into a med school with a solid MCAT. It may be tough, but it isnt impossible.


    Show consistency with high grades, score well on the MCAT, write awesome essays and rock the interviews.

    Whats done is done. You won't know until you try.
     
  37. Midifelder10

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    Agree completely. Moreover you are heck of a student too who has developed some real good discipline and learned to work extremely hard. Unfortunately Med school has missed on this good student. Net result - you got screwed.
     
  38. Brent8927

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    Hey OP,

    You can definitely get into medical school--in my opinion anyone whose heart is really in it can do it.

    First, generally MCAT scores are valid about three years. It can differ based on each institution (a number of schools allow tests that are four years old), but it seems that is the general time-frame. The MSAR has this data for each school.

    I was in slightly similar shoes as you--some low undergrad grades in the pre-med courses (and a few others). I got two B-'s in gen chem and a B- and C- in physics, all on the quarter system. These grades definitely didn't help me.

    However, I did a post-bac program, where I got all A's and A minuses, was invited to TA physics after I finished the sequence with an A, and then did well on the MCAT. This doesn't mean that my low undergrad grades didn't hurt me (and my overall GPA was still not too impressive--my post-bac failed to change it significantly because I took a lot of extra units as an undergrad to double-degree). It’s just that I put some distance between my low grades, and had two years of solid grades.

    Because of my upward trend, physics TAing, MCAT score, etc., I was able to prove to adcoms that I was prepared for medical school. And often people love students who come back against the odds (though not always--expect some tough questions, but still focus on what you can add to their program rather than your mistakes from the past)

    What I'm trying to say is it is most definitely possible for you to get accepted to medical school--MD or DO. I think you might just have to work a while longer, though I don't know if an SMP, master's program, or post-bac program would be best for you. If you have one, ask your pre-med advisor--they're likely much smarter/wiser than us SDNers, and may be able to better give you personalized advice.

    Certainly if you want to try for admission next fall, go for it, but I think you can get into a more prestigious school if you work at it a little bit more. If that doesn’t matter to you, then rock the MCAT and go for it! (And if it does matter, still go rock the MCAT!)

    To answer your original question regarding if it helps if you went to a prestigious undergrad institution, it probably helps, esp. if your interview is an alumni of that school. But as far as how much it helps, I really don’t know, and SDNers seem to argue back and forth… Best thing to do would be just call up a few medical schools and ask them directly!

    Good luck, and feel free to send me a message if you have any questions for me.

    -Brent
     
  39. ilubse7en

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    thank you so much, you make my day!!!
    God bless you!!:love:
     
  40. BigD311

    2+ Year Member

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    excellent response. Good luck OP
     

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