Does money really matter? [school reputation > debt] ?

[theNEWgirl]

I mean, debt-wise. Paying all your loans after your degree.

Should it be a huge factor in determining your school of choice?

Would a doctor coming from prestigious yet expensive school X be better than a doctor coming from less commonly known school Y?

in short:

school reputation > debt?

(not trying to start a flame war, just need some honest answers)

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[HumidBeing]

I guess that could depend on where they did their residencies and any fellowships - the parts that they don't get charged for.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I mean, debt-wise. Paying all your loans after your degree.

Should it be a huge factor in determining your school of choice?

Would a doctor coming from prestigious yet expensive school X be better than a doctor coming from less commonly known school Y?

in short:

school reputation > debt?

(not trying to start a flame war, just need some honest answers)

Quick and easy answer: Unless the money is negligible (say 5-10K over 4 years) or you wouldnt be happy at the less expensive school, no, reputation is not more impt than debt load.

Unlike college, medical school education is very standardized. Sure there are some intricacies between schools (PBL, some curriculums are only 1.5 years basic sciences) but you will learn the same thing at every school. Going to Harvard may give you a minor push to get into a certain residency type but if you arent a great student it wouldnt matter. The school determines very little of the outcome.

 

[Law2Doc]

Going to Harvard may give you a minor push to get into a certain residency type but if you arent a great student it wouldnt matter. The school determines very little of the outcome.

Yeah. This kind of thread is actually quite interesting, because the "wisdom" changes dramatically from premed to med student. You find a ton of people focusing on school rank as premeds, which I guess makes sense because folks have worked hard for 4 years and want to capitalize on the effort by going someplace really prestigious and be the envy of their peers. But on the allo board the consensus is almost always -- "if I had known what factors really mattered, I probably would have saved that $15k/year and gone to my state school". Everything counts, but in terms of residency and career, school name counts a lot less than quite a few factors which are not school dependant.

I would personally suggest you just go to the school you like best and feel like you will thrive and be happy at. Don't get bogged down in the ranking game or the student debt game. The money can be borrowed and repaid down the road, and 4 years of happiness and better grades/scores is probably worth something. Whether your school is ranked 27 or 49 probably isn't meaningful though -- your board scores and clinical rotation evaluations are going to make or break you regardless.

 

[postbacker]

Yeah. This kind of thread is actually quite interesting, because the "wisdom" changes dramatically from premed to med student. You find a ton of people focusing on school rank as premeds, which I guess makes sense because folks have worked hard for 4 years and want to capitalize on the effort by going someplace really prestigious and be the envy of their peers. But on the allo board the consensus is almost always -- "if I had known what factors really mattered, I probably would have saved that $15k/year and gone to my state school". Everything counts, but in terms of residency and career, school name counts a lot less than quite a few factors which are not school dependant.

I would personally suggest you just go to the school you like best and feel like you will thrive and be happy at. Don't get bogged down in the ranking game or the student debt game. The money can be borrowed and repaid down the road, and 4 years of happiness and better grades/scores is probably worth something. Whether your school is ranked 27 or 49 probably isn't meaningful though -- your board scores and clinical rotation evaluations are going to make or break you regardless.

The "do what makes you happiest" is the hardest one to pin down, because from what I have read on SDN where people have chosen the higher ranked school at significantly greater debt, their justification is that "I will be happier at Med School X simply because it is higher ranked / more prestigious" and they further rationalize the debt by believing "that the higher ranked school will propel me into a higher paying specialty and I will be able to pay the added debt off more easily..."

What will make me "happiest" is the lowest possible student debt load and being as close to "home and family" as possible...if a highly ranked school fits, that will be fantastic - the "cherry on top" - but I would never take on a lot more debt for that privilege...but it is fascinating to read these stories on SDN, kind of like watching a train wreck...

 

[SilkyDelicious]

I have heard advice from both sides. Typically the ones saying don't worry about the debt, just go where you think will be the best fit went to "top-ranked" schools. Whereas the ones saying the school doesn't matter did not.

Most of the doctors I have worked with over the last few years feel it does make a difference where you go. And these are all doctors involved with admitting residents and fellows.

I can't take a real stance for myself, though hopefully I will have the opportunity to choose one way or the other.

 

[medguy83]

I think the status of the med school isn't in the same category as the status of your undergrad institution. While a 3.3 at Yale undergrad might equal a 3.7 or so in comparison to a state school, a crappy step 1 and barely making it through your med school classes won't be compensated by the fact you went to Johns Hopkins. I believe med school status can help somewhat; especially if you've done well. However, I believe when it comes to residency placement and competitiveness of your app., the ball is in your court. If you can do great on your boards and manage to get involved in research, aoa, etc. you'll be competitive regardless of which med school you attended.

About debt: if you're applying OOS, or to a private school you'll obviously be paying more than for a state school. However, if I'm not mistaken I believe the average debt at Duke is somewhere around $80K which is pretty cheap in comparison to most places, so it is possible to go top-tier and also come out with relatively low debt. Probably the exception rather than the rule.

 

[searun]

Don't assume that the top tier school is necessarily the most expensive. I am an M1 at a top ten school and the financial aid package I received from the school that I attend was much better than my state school. My tuition at this top 10 school is covered by a scholarship. Loans cover my living expenses so I will graduate with less than 100,000 of debt. It would have been much more expensive for me to attend OHSU, my state school which basically just offers a package of loans. So it was easy for me to turn down my acceptance to OHSU and attend a highly regarded private med school for much less cost. Don't make assumptions about cost until you compare financial aid packages which can vary greatly.

 

[postbacker]

Don't assume that the top tier school is necessarily the most expensive. I am an M1 at a top ten school and the financial aid package I received from the school that I attend was much better than my state school. My tuition at this top 10 school is covered by a scholarship. Loans cover my living expenses so I will graduate with less than 100,000 of debt. It would have been much more expensive for me to attend OHSU, my state school which basically just offers a package of loans. So it was easy for me to turn down my acceptance to OHSU and attend a highly regarded private med school for much less cost. Don't make assumptions about cost until you compare financial aid packages which can vary greatly.

I agree and I intend to apply broadly and hopefully be in a position to evaluate financial aid packages from a range of schools, but the SDN anecdotes I allude to are examples where somebody turns down their state school to attend a higher ranked private, and in one particular case I recall the diff in total indebtedness over 4 years was over $100k...call me crazy, but that is not what would make me "happy."

 

[postbacker]

I have heard advice from both sides. Typically the ones saying don't worry about the debt, just go where you think will be the best fit went to "top-ranked" schools. Whereas the ones saying the school doesn't matter did not.

Most of the doctors I have worked with over the last few years feel it does make a difference where you go. And these are all doctors involved with admitting residents and fellows.

I can't take a real stance for myself, though hopefully I will have the opportunity to choose one way or the other.

"Most" doctors who have been out of school for any amount of time benefitted from more lucrative compensation in the 80s and 90s, plus their gross student debt was much lower than the $250k+ debts people are racking up today, so I would take their "opinion" with a grain of salt...

I also disagree with your idea that people say whatever matches their circumstances, because I have read plenty of posts from people who are at the higher cost schools who now say it was not worth the extra debt (usually expressed as "I wish I had opted for my cheaper state school"...).

There is a huge discrepancy between what most pre-meds think matters most in choosing a med school and what med students think, and that is the most important thing to take away from this discussion...

 

[nick_carraway]

One of my tour guides said that the one piece of advice he wishes he knew was that rank doesn't matter compared to debt. If it's a crazy top-ranked school, then maybe it has a psychological effect. As for the ones in the middle, he said, they're all the same. Choose whichever one is cheaper for you or closer to your family rather than try to pick through the minute details that separate one mid-tier school from another.

That being said, you might live in a state where being OOS is your only option and then it doesn't really matter where you go in terms of tuition unless you get into a school that'll grant you IS status eventually.

 

[postbacker]

One of my tour guides said that the one piece of advice he wishes he knew was that rank doesn't matter compared to debt. If it's a crazy top-ranked school, then maybe it has a psychological effect. As for the ones in the middle, he said, they're all the same. Choose whichever one is cheaper for you or closer to your family rather than try to pick through the minute details that separate one mid-tier school from another.

That being said, you might live in a state where being OOS is your only option and then it doesn't really matter where you go in terms of tuition unless you get into a school that'll grant you IS status eventually.

Even though like most applicants I realize that the most likely schools I will get accepted at are my in-state publics, the in-state tuition here is relatively high and cost of attendance could actually end up being higher, all things considered, to attend an in-state school for me, so I definitely will be applying broadly and, hopefully, have options...

 

[Instatewaiter]

Most of the doctors I have worked with over the last few years feel it does make a difference where you go. And these are all doctors involved with admitting residents and fellows.

I am sure that there are directors that view school as very important. But, if you want Ortho and score a 210 on the boards dont think that these guys will look at Harvard and say, "oh let's rank him highly in instead of the guy from Wayne State who scored a 240."

All things equal, sure a guy from Harvard probably will get a 'bonus' because he went to a well known school but there are so many variables that things are rarely equal.

I go to a middle of the road medical school and we consistently have multiple matches into each of the most competitive specialties: ENT, Ortho, Ophtho, Plastics, Neurosurg, Uro, Derm and rads. We are a good school but really nothing special, so if prestige really made that much difference, we wouldnt consistently have matches to the top programs.

 

[154465]

I am sure that there are directors that view school as very important. But, if you want Ortho and score a 210 on the boards dont think that these guys will look at Harvard and say, "oh let's rank him highly in instead of the guy from Wayne State who scored a 240."

All things equal, sure a guy from Harvard probably will get a 'bonus' because he went to a well known school but there are so many variables that things are rarely equal.

I go to a middle of the road medical school and we consistently have multiple matches into each of the most competitive specialties: ENT, Ortho, Ophtho, Plastics, Neurosurg, Uro, Derm and rads. We are a good school but really nothing special, so if prestige really made that much difference, we wouldnt consistently have matches to the top programs.

I counted 5 kids that matched into neurosurg from Wayne State last year.... here's to hoping. I have been looking through match lists and honestly it seems pretty uniform across the board. Some schools have more derm than family practice but honestly I couldn't see much of a difference. I personally applied to med schools based on where I wanna live for the next 4 years, but I am just speaking from a pre-med perspective.

 

[SilkyDelicious]

I also disagree with your idea that people say whatever matches their circumstances, because I have read plenty of posts from people who are at the higher cost schools who now say it was not worth the extra debt (usually expressed as "I wish I had opted for my cheaper state school"...).

Wasn't really an idea, just personal experience...

And I've heard students say, "Wow, I wish I would've gotten accepted there even if it would've put me into more debt" cause they're more or less unhappy at their school that may not offer the same oppurtunities as another, but made their decision based on cost.

Depending on your background and own personal preference in terms of how you see yourself fitting into a school is how YOU should decide your future, and that is the most important thing to take away from this discussion.

As the OP asked, I was just giving an honest answer from my own personal experience... not asking whether people's opinions should be taken with a grain of salt, but thanks

 

[ADeadLois]

Yeah. This kind of thread is actually quite interesting, because the "wisdom" changes dramatically from premed to med student. You find a ton of people focusing on school rank as premeds, which I guess makes sense because folks have worked hard for 4 years and want to capitalize on the effort by going someplace really prestigious and be the envy of their peers. But on the allo board the consensus is almost always -- "if I had known what factors really mattered, I probably would have saved that $15k/year and gone to my state school". Everything counts, but in terms of residency and career, school name counts a lot less than quite a few factors which are not school dependant.

I would personally suggest you just go to the school you like best and feel like you will thrive and be happy at. Don't get bogged down in the ranking game or the student debt game. The money can be borrowed and repaid down the road, and 4 years of happiness and better grades/scores is probably worth something. Whether your school is ranked 27 or 49 probably isn't meaningful though -- your board scores and clinical rotation evaluations are going to make or break you regardless.

A definite rite of passage is when you realize most of your criteria you use to judge med schools doesn't really matter or is, in a lot of respects, wrong. I'm fairly certain this is a universal realization of M1s at some point (for better or for worse).

 

[BrokenGlass]

A definite rite of passage is when you realize most of your criteria you use to judge med schools doesn't really matter or is, in a lot of respects, wrong. I'm fairly certain this is a universal realization of M1s at some point (for better or for worse).

It's quite possible that people who went to top 10 med schools had unrealistic expectations regarding the benefits that would come from attending them. If they ended up going to low-ranked schools, chances are they would now be regretting their decision of not enrolling at a top 10. The don't say "grass is greener on the other side" for nothing. But I agree that keeping debt as low as possible is supremely important.

 

[wjustice]

I'm going to bump this thread because I have a question about debt.

I don't really have a whole lot of financial experience/perspective, so I was curious to hear what people think: how will having $240k in debt affect your lifestyle as a physician (say, primary care) after you are out of residency. Maybe, compared to $120k. Is $240k manageable? If I give up sports cars, lavish dinners out, weekend trips to the Riviera, etc.

 

[Orbo]

It's a common misconception that the main advantage in top tier schools (in particular, the ivy leagues) is in the quality education provided.

Ivy Leagues confer advantages, but not primarily in quality of education.

 

[jochi1543]

My student interviewer at Case touched on that yesterday. He sad he paid way too much attention to reputation back when he applied, and now he is worried about the debt and some of the bigger scholarships he passed up, so he encouraged me to not get caught up in the rankings.

I think if you're talking either a top 10 for $7500 a year more vs. a below 50, the money is not enough to keep you from choosing the higher-ranked school. But if we are talking $20,000 a year...then picking the more expensive school would be really stupid, IMO - unless factors beyond rankings and $ were involved. But even so, I'd rather attend a lower-ranked school with slightly shoddier facilities than borrow an extra $80,000.

 

[Maxprime]

Obviously there is no clear answer to this question. Otherwise, all the people at Harvard would be competing to get into StateU because it's 10 times cheaper for the same exact education. If people really believed school didn't matter versus cost, the cheapest schools would have the best numbers.

That being said, as stated previously, medical education is pretty standardized. My opinion (I've had many med students agree) is that M1 & M2 are the same everywhere. But the facilities you have access to as an M3 can help a lot. For example, I want to go into neurosurgery and one of my state schools doesn't have a neurosurgery department. That sucks, but it's no deal breaker - I'd have to do rotations at a different school. Also, what will your patient population be like as a med student? I'm willing to bet that med school in the bronx & med school @ Mayo in the middle of nowhere give people very different experiences.

Most physicians will tell you that it's the training that matters - put yourself in the best position to get a good residency, whatever that means to you.

 

[45408]

A definite rite of passage is when you realize most of your criteria you use to judge med schools doesn't really matter or is, in a lot of respects, wrong. I'm fairly certain this is a universal realization of M1s at some point (for better or for worse).

I'd say the most important criteria for evaluating a med school is what the anatomy lab looks like.


I was accepted to two schools, but I actually picked the lower ranked AND more expensive one (by about $10K/year), and I'm quite sure it was the right decision.

 

[Kthanksbye]

From talking to numerous doctors and being related to one:

Nobody will ever ask you what medical school you went to once you are in practice except out of idle curiosity. They will not assume any greater or lesser competence because of this, most will be totally unaware if you attended Harvard or got your degree from some podunk school in a town with a resident population of 16,000. Many could give a crap if you attended some backwater in the Caribbean. If you try to puff up your shirt with the prestige that you feel the name of your medical school somehow confers upon you, you will be regarded as a tool. Save your money and just get your MD.

Perhaps some of those with more experience in the matter can confirm or refute this, but this is my M.O. for the application process.

This may be different if you want to go into academic medicine, I have no knowledge of that however.

 

[45408]

I'm going to bump this thread because I have a question about debt.

I don't really have a whole lot of financial experience/perspective, so I was curious to hear what people think: how will having $240k in debt affect your lifestyle as a physician (say, primary care) after you are out of residency. Maybe, compared to $120k. Is $240k manageable? If I give up sports cars, lavish dinners out, weekend trips to the Riviera, etc.

If you get the subsidized Stafford loans (capped at $8000 a year, I believe) and then the rest of your money from unsubsidized Stafford loans, and then you qualify to defer the subsidized loans for residency and forbear the rest, you're going to owe $340,000 by the end of your residency (based on 6% interest - it's actually 6.8 right now). If you paid $3000 PER MONTH, it would still take you about 15 years to pay off. Will that affect your lifestyle? You bet. Say you're making $160,000 a year, you can take off $50,000 for taxes, and then another $36,000 for loans, you're already down to $74,000 a year. Then you've got a mortage....

Yes, you can assume you will definitely be giving up sports cars and trips to the Riviera with that kind of debt. You could pick up a used C5 Z06 though, and you can get a flight to London for under $500.

 

[bailey39]

You can have a great educational experience at almost any medical school, and I definitely think you should be wary of older physicians who talk about their debt, precisely because we are graduating with so much more these days. That being said, I personally chose a school where my debt would be a little higher, and in my final year, I'm still really happy with the decision. I chose it based on my academic/research interests-- I knew I would have incredible support (financially, mentors) for my work. Over 50% of our class is taking a school-financed 5th year abroad or 2nd degree program. Those of us abroad keep our full-time student status and receive credit (but no loans, no tuition) in addition to financial stipends/fellowships (flights, cost of living, SOS insurance) that are directly deposited into our bank accounts....and those in an MPH/MBA program have free tuition. So I'm happy, but some who went straight through wondered why they spent so much.

Also some schools are starting their own few loan forgiveness programs for ex-students who are working in primary care or underserved areas of the country. I know our school either make payments on your loans for 5yrs (i think?) or can eliminate a percentage entirely. It's pretty great.

This isn't to say that all high tuition schools are great or worth the cost, but high tuition should not discourage you from applying or interviewing at places you would otherwise be interested in. You should look at options once you're accepted and think about what you really want. Oh, and the Duke system (mentioned above) is really amazing, but I personally found that 1st year a little daunting...

good luck!

 

[bailey39]

oops, duplicated my reply!

 

[littlealex]

But if you compare matchlists of schools like Yale with that of, iono, UMDNJ, the top10 med school kids matches significantly better. Is the better matching probabiliy worth the extra cash?

 

[Jolie South]

But if you compare matchlists of schools like Yale with that of, iono, UMDNJ, the top10 med school kids matches significantly better. Is the better matching probabiliy worth the extra cash?

could it be argued that top 10s are full of kids that academically might be a little smarter to begin with?

you can match anywhere if you bust your a** enough during med school and pull out a great step 1. that's my understanding. so, everything is really dependent on you.

 

[letitgo]

What about a Top 2 vs. like a Top 20/25? And let's say it wasn't based totally on money, but on location, too?

Would it be crazy to go to a school ranked #23 (or whatever) over Hopkins just because you like it better?

Has anyone in med school done this?

I'm sorry if it's a stupid question, but I'm honestly interested in what people have to say. Clearly it's a nice dilemma to have, and I wouldn't complain if I had that option!

 

[LovelyMD]

What about a Top 2 vs. like a Top 20/25? And let's say it wasn't based totally on money, but on location, too?

Would it be crazy to go to a school ranked #23 (or whatever) over Hopkins just because you like it better?

Has anyone in med school done this?

I'm sorry if it's a stupid question, but I'm honestly interested in what people have to say. Clearly it's a nice dilemma to have, and I wouldn't complain if I had that option!

I'm actually interested to hear people's thoughts on this as well.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

While Hopkins would be tempting, If I felt that I liked school 23 more and fit in better, I would choose 23.

 

[Jolie South]

While Hopkins would be tempting, If I felt that I liked school 23 more and fit in better, I would choose 23.

I'm all about fit. I would have to agree with this.

 

[Kthanksbye]

In no way will my decision be based on the perceived prestige of the school. My own personal criteria will be:

1. if they accept me.
2. PBL (I will avoid like the plague if possible. This is a personal preference. You may think otherwise and that's OK with me.)
3. cost
4. (distant) my very limited assessment of how I will like the school, location, how pretty the campus is, etc. (I just don't see how one can assess a school very well before they take classes there.

Things like match lists or USMLE scores don't even enter the picture. I personally feel that all other things are not about the school at all. You create them. Match lists depend on you. If you pick a school based on name, you essentially bought yourself the right to wear a very expensive school hoodie. Hope you enjoy it.

 

[postbacker]

In no way will my decision be based on the perceived prestige of the school. My own personal criteria will be:

1. if they accept me.
2. PBL (I will avoid like the plague if possible. This is a personal preference. You may think otherwise and that's OK with me.)
3. cost
4. (distant) my very limited assessment of how I will like the school, location, how pretty the campus is, etc. (I just don't see how one can assess a school very well before they take classes there.

I don't see myself looking at match lists or USMLE scores. I personally feel that all other things are not about the school at all. You create them. Match lists depend on you. If you pick a school based on name, you essentially bought yourself the right to wear a very expensive school hoodie.

I agree with just about everything in this post, but I do not feel strongly one way or the other about PBL...at this point I would prefer a school with a healthy mix of styles and class structures...

I honestly do not care what the school is ranked, nor do I care about match lists or Step scores...I do care about how I feel about the place - the people I meet - the opportunities for research - and the like...but these are secondary to cost and location (proximity to the fam...) for me.

I will look at "total cost" including the cost of living and the need for a car (no car, even if only for 2 years, is a huge plus to me...no car for 4 years is a total winner, all else being equal)...

 

[45408]

I'm all about fit. I would have to agree with this.

Likewise. I picked a school that was ranked about 25 spots lower because I felt it was a much better fit (and I was a lot closer to my family).

 

[aaj117]

So after reading the majority of this post, i went in the conference room for a meeting, and one of the doctors at the practice i work at started asking me about med school applications. When i told him i had already gotten into tufts and howard, he didn't understand how i could possibly be considering howard over tufts. I tried to explain to him the $30,000 a year difference and the fact that i was a little bit more comfortable at howard, and he kept looking at me like i had five heads. I explained to him that i walked through the library at tufts for half an hour, saw more than a hundred students, and one was asian, and the rest were white. That kind of wierded me out. I mean, i have nothing against white people..i'm half white, the majority of my family is white, and there were plenty of white people at Princeton....but there were just SO MANY OF THEM at tufts i felt out of place and strange. The woman from the office of diversity came in and talked about how diverse the patient population is and how we were going to have to be able to interact with them, but mentioned nothing about students. To talk to an SNMA member you had to go down the hall to have lunch wtih them in a different room. Of the 18 people interviewing that day, there were 16 white people, one asian, and me. That was strange to me. This doctor told me that if i made my decision based on that i'd be making a big mistake, but i definitely think that comfort (and the money) plays a huge role. I am having a tough time deciding between the two schools because they are polar opposites, in my opinion, and it makes them very difficult to compare.

 

[postbacker]

So after reading the majority of this post, i went in the conference room for a meeting, and one of the doctors at the practice i work at started asking me about med school applications. When i told him i had already gotten into tufts and howard, he didn't understand how i could possibly be considering howard over tufts. I tried to explain to him the $30,000 a year difference and the fact that i was a little bit more comfortable at howard, and he kept looking at me like i had five heads. I explained to him that i walked through the library at tufts for half an hour, saw more than a hundred students, and one was asian, and the rest were white. That kind of wierded me out. I mean, i have nothing against white people..i'm half white, the majority of my family is white, and there were plenty of white people at Princeton....but there were just SO MANY OF THEM at tufts i felt out of place and strange. The woman from the office of diversity came in and talked about how diverse the patient population is and how we were going to have to be able to interact with them, but mentioned nothing about students. To talk to an SNMA member you had to go down the hall to have lunch wtih them in a different room. Of the 18 people interviewing that day, there were 16 white people, one asian, and me. That was strange to me. This doctor told me that if i made my decision based on that i'd be making a big mistake, but i definitely think that comfort (and the money) plays a huge role. I am having a tough time deciding between the two schools because they are polar opposites, in my opinion, and it makes them very difficult to compare.

Tufts may come through with a big scholarship, so wait out the process...but also trust your gut on this call...I would not listen to that doctor or anybody else for that matter...he is not the one going to med school, you are...he already had his chance to do it "his way"...this is your one big chance to do it "your way."

Good luck...

 

[aaj117]

Tufts may come through with a big scholarship, so wait out the process...but also trust your gut on this call...I would not listen to that doctor or anybody else for that matter...he is not the one going to med school, you are...he already had his chance to do it "his way"...this is your one big chance to do it "your way."

Good luck...

Thanks i will. I am definitely holding both acceptances right now, and we'll see what happens when financial aid packages come through. My undergrad rreally really frowns upon people holding any more than two spots at a time, but if i get more (with the exception of schools i really disliked), i will hold them until i know what they'll really cost for me, since my family is not going to help me out at all. i applied to a few non-rolling schools, so this decision making process won't be over for a longgg time.

 

[letitgo]

Well, this is good to hear. I was lucky enough to get into Hopkins a few weeks ago, and everyone I've told at work has asked me why I simply haven't withdrawn from everywhere else. Honestly, I really loved some of the other places I interviewed, and I wouldn't want to discount them immediately. I can't see a major difference between Hopkins and a school 20 notches down on USNEWS, but apparently some people do.

For me, location is hugely important. I just want to be happy in med school - happy where I am, and who I'm with. There are schools I know for a fact I'd love, whereas I'm not sure some of these top schools are the best fit for me. It's reassuring to know that not everyone is obsessed with prestige.

 

[Kthanksbye]

So after reading the majority of this post, i went in the conference room for a meeting, and one of the doctors at the practice i work at started asking me about med school applications. When i told him i had already gotten into tufts and howard, he didn't understand how i could possibly be considering howard over tufts. I tried to explain to him the $30,000 a year difference and the fact that i was a little bit more comfortable at howard, and he kept looking at me like i had five heads. I explained to him that i walked through the library at tufts for half an hour, saw more than a hundred students, and one was asian, and the rest were white. That kind of wierded me out. I mean, i have nothing against white people..i'm half white, the majority of my family is white, and there were plenty of white people at Princeton....but there were just SO MANY OF THEM at tufts i felt out of place and strange. The woman from the office of diversity came in and talked about how diverse the patient population is and how we were going to have to be able to interact with them, but mentioned nothing about students. To talk to an SNMA member you had to go down the hall to have lunch wtih them in a different room. Of the 18 people interviewing that day, there were 16 white people, one asian, and me. That was strange to me. This doctor told me that if i made my decision based on that i'd be making a big mistake, but i definitely think that comfort (and the money) plays a huge role. I am having a tough time deciding between the two schools because they are polar opposites, in my opinion, and it makes them very difficult to compare.

Howard may be a bit of an exception...I understand that it is primarily interested in placing people in primary care in undeserved communities, and may have more limited opportunities than other schools. Did you ask the doctor why he felt this way?

 

[lord_jeebus]

I think that, depending on your career goals and the difference in cost, it can be a good decision to go to a more prestigious institution.

For a very competitive specialty, it helps to have every edge you have. The key here isn't school rank so much as the names in your department of choice, but they to tend to gravitate towards the big names.

For a career in academic medicine, your pedigree also has nonnegligible significance.

That being said, I think most people would be better off attending their state school than a "top 10" school that isn't offering financial aid to them.

Looking at match lists (which is a lot of voodoo), one thing that I do think stands out is that even the bottom students (ie. everybody) at Harvard, UCSF, etc. are matching at very competitive places, whereas only the top fraction of most schools enjoy similar success. It's not that attending a lesser-known schools closes doors (perhaps a few), but that it probably takes a lot more effort to do similarly well as someone at a big name.

 

[aaj117]

Howard may be a bit of an exception...I understand that it is primarily interested in placing people in primary care in undeserved communities, and may have more limited opportunities than other schools. Did you ask the doctor why he felt this way?

He just thinks really really highly of tufts...he said nothing negative about howard, but is very impressed with tufts. One of the younger docs here at this practice did his residency and fellowship there and i think he is impressed wtih that doctor's training as well.

I don't think that howard had "fewer opportunities" at all. They are interested in getting medical care to underserved communities and populations, but that doesn't limit the way that they train at all. Thier hospital and the surrounding ones that people do rotations at have all different types of specialties and opportunities, and getting out into underserved communities allows a lot of students to take on more responsibilities and do more. This is what I am interested in doing. my main interests lie in cardiology and i would like to work in a practice in a diverse area so that i can do clinical research in racial disparities in heart disease, one area of medicine where the differences are extremely pronounced, which is why i think that Howard might even give me better opportunities than many other schools.

 

[aaj117]

I think that, depending on your career goals and the difference in cost, it can be a good decision to go to a more prestigious institution.

For a very competitive specialty, it helps to have every edge you have. The key here isn't school rank so much as the names in your department of choice, but they to tend to gravitate towards the big names.
quote]

This is very true, and the reason that i'm having such a hard time deciding between schools. Unfortunately the prestige does still make a difference, and if i have the opportunity to have that advantage, i am nervous about throwing it away. how many other students are feeling this way?

 

[Doublecortin]

I think that, depending on your career goals and the difference in cost, it can be a good decision to go to a more prestigious institution.

For a very competitive specialty, it helps to have every edge you have. The key here isn't school rank so much as the names in your department of choice, but they to tend to gravitate towards the big names.
quote]

This is very true, and the reason that i'm having such a hard time deciding between schools. Unfortunately the prestige does still make a difference, and if i have the opportunity to have that advantage, i am nervous about throwing it away. how many other students are feeling this way?

I agree with you aaj117 that unfortunately prestige, and brand-name still play a role in our society. If you are a plastic surgeon, or an ophtho or derm or what not, and you went to Harvard or JHU, you'd be a fool not to include that fact in your advertisement

 

[Gospe1]

Incredibly interesting topic guys. Reminds me of 4 years ago when I had to choose between vanderbilt undergrad with a 3/4 scholarship and my current college with a nice but not great finaid package. I know this may seem irrelevant when it comes to medicine but just hear me out. I agree with medical education is standardized compared to undergrad education. However, the main reason I still feel validated by my choice to attend my current undergrad institution was the caliber of the people I met. Yes, there are incredibly smart people at StateU but usually these geniuses congregate at your top 20 schools. Even if classes were completely the same at two different institutions, the quality of the students makes a huge impact on how you learn.

Since I am not yet a medical student, I do not feign to know the intricacies of the medical education. However, I do believe that attending a higher ranked school tends to set you off on the right foot for the next leg of your medical journey. However, I also realize that debt for medical school is much more serious than debt for undergrad. However, going to a prestigious school tends to open up avenues later in life, beyond our careers, that may seem invaluable later. For example, if I wanted to do international work, the prestige of my SOM, especially if I attend Harvard, Stanford, or JH does become important.

 

[TheRealMD]

Shouldn't any different in debt be doubled due to interest? I mean, $25,000 diff over 4 years may not seem like much now, but when you actually pay it back, it suddenly turns into $50,000 and takes you that much longer to pay it back.

Not that I wouldn't pick the higher ranked school, but I wanted to point this out (albeit again) just so everyone knows what they are dealing with.

 

[maestro1625]

Incredibly interesting topic guys. Reminds me of 4 years ago when I had to choose between vanderbilt undergrad with a 3/4 scholarship and my current college with a nice but not great finaid package. I know this may seem irrelevant when it comes to medicine but just hear me out. I agree with medical education is standardized compared to undergrad education. However, the main reason I still feel validated by my choice to attend my current undergrad institution was the caliber of the people I met. Yes, there are incredibly smart people at StateU but usually these geniuses congregate at your top 20 schools. Even if classes were completely the same at two different institutions, the quality of the students makes a huge impact on how you learn.

Since I am not yet a medical student, I do not feign to know the intricacies of the medical education. However, I do believe that attending a higher ranked school tends to set you off on the right foot for the next leg of your medical journey. However, I also realize that debt for medical school is much more serious than debt for undergrad. However, going to a prestigious school tends to open up avenues later in life, beyond our careers, that may seem invaluable later. For example, if I wanted to do international work, the prestige of my SOM, especially if I attend Harvard, Stanford, or JH does become important.

yeah, I'm gonna disagree there... The undergrad school really hasn't meant a damn thing for who's at the top or bottom of the class so far. a 32-34 MCAT at Harvard is still a 32-34 MCAT at State U.

/and as for validation, having my med school living expenses covered (as in no need for loans) by the money I saved going to a less expensive undergrad is all the validation I needed.

 

[Gospe1]

yeah, I'm gonna disagree there... The undergrad school really hasn't meant a damn thing for who's at the top or bottom of the class so far. a 32-34 MCAT at Harvard is still a 32-34 MCAT at State U.

/and as for validation, having my med school living expenses covered (as in no need for loans) by the money I saved going to a less expensive undergrad is all the validation I needed.

Right, thats the reason for standardized testing. However, I know law schools, for example, adjust GPAs of undergraduate institutions. If I remember correctly, the GPAs of Stanford, Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, MIT undergrads get multiplied by 4.0; Amherst, Williams, UChicago, etc. get multiplied by 3.9 and so on. I know this does not happen so overtly for medical schools, but it does happen. If you look at UMich's auto invites, most of them go out to 8 major undergrad institutions. I'm not saying that a 3.3 at Harvard is somehow better than a 3.7 at StateU, but Adcoms might be more amicable to your situation if you received the 3.3 from Harvard than from the StateU. Also, if some of us do not have great StateU SOMs. In that case, its more than appropriate to attend schools outside of your state.


Edit: I'm sorry. I didn't see that you are a medical student and you were talking about rankings in medical school. Well, since we are both going by anecdotal evidence, it's hardly convincing. If you check class ranks, a higher percentage of valedictorians attend rice than, let's say, University of Oklahoma (sorry UO). Are you saying that valedictorian-ship in HS, which has positive correlation to a more prestigious undergrad college, has no meaning? People that attend HMS tend to have higher college GPAs than, say, people who attend University of New Mexico. When they arrive that that medical school, does that diligence that earned them more A's in college have no weight in medical school?

 

[maestro1625]

Right, thats the reason for standardized testing. However, I know law schools, for example, adjust GPAs of undergraduate institutions. If I remember correctly, the GPAs of Stanford, Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, MIT undergrads get multiplied by 4.0; Amherst, Williams, UChicago, etc. get multiplied by 3.9 and so on. I know this does not happen so overtly for medical schools, but it does happen. If you look at UMich's auto invites, most of them go out to 8 major undergrad institutions. I'm not saying that a 3.3 at Harvard is somehow better than a 3.7 at StateU, but Adcoms might be more amicable to your situation if you received the 3.3 from Harvard than from the StateU. Also, if some of us do not have great StateU SOMs. In that case, its more than appropriate to attend schools outside of your state.

however you're forgetting that (unless you have a bad one) GPA is going to be a lot less important than test scores.

And as for your point about the "higher quality of students" at the top schools, I've never really understood this. My med school class is loaded up with graduates of prestigious colleges (east coast school, so that's bound to happen moreso than back home in the midwest). and I've never really been any more "impressed" with them than the students at my undergrad who went to med school, and I went to a third tier school. Nothing against my class (except mabye a bit of east coast arrogance), but I've never felt the fact I came from a lower tier school than 95% of them has made any difference.

As for the med school issue. I chose the more expensive of my two choices, but if it weren't for the fact that Wayne State has some serious political problems right now I probably wouldn't have made that decision. I like my school, but med school is med school... it's all one big headache .

 

[45408]

Well, this is good to hear. I was lucky enough to get into Hopkins a few weeks ago, and everyone I've told at work has asked me why I simply haven't withdrawn from everywhere else. Honestly, I really loved some of the other places I interviewed, and I wouldn't want to discount them immediately. I can't see a major difference between Hopkins and a school 20 notches down on USNEWS, but apparently some people do.

For me, location is hugely important. I just want to be happy in med school - happy where I am, and who I'm with. There are schools I know for a fact I'd love, whereas I'm not sure some of these top schools are the best fit for me. It's reassuring to know that not everyone is obsessed with prestige.

Here's an anecdote of n=1, but I know a girl who chose MCW over Hopkins, mostly because of the whole idea of one school being a better fit for her. Obviously, Hopkins has a much better reputation as an academic research institute, but if you feel like you might be miserable for four years (which is only going to hurt your academic performance), then going there would be terrible.