Does money really matter? [school reputation > debt] ?

[Doublecortin]

Incredibly interesting topic guys. Reminds me of 4 years ago when I had to choose between vanderbilt undergrad with a 3/4 scholarship and my current college with a nice but not great finaid package. I know this may seem irrelevant when it comes to medicine but just hear me out. I agree with medical education is standardized compared to undergrad education. However, the main reason I still feel validated by my choice to attend my current undergrad institution was the caliber of the people I met. Yes, there are incredibly smart people at StateU but usually these geniuses congregate at your top 20 schools. Even if classes were completely the same at two different institutions, the quality of the students makes a huge impact on how you learn.

Since I am not yet a medical student, I do not feign to know the intricacies of the medical education. However, I do believe that attending a higher ranked school tends to set you off on the right foot for the next leg of your medical journey. However, I also realize that debt for medical school is much more serious than debt for undergrad. However, going to a prestigious school tends to open up avenues later in life, beyond our careers, that may seem invaluable later. For example, if I wanted to do international work, the prestige of my SOM, especially if I attend Harvard, Stanford, or JH does become important.

I agree, as a graduate of a very large state school in CA, I can attest that the caliber of my classmates was very mediocre. It was a true bell curve, very few smart people, few dumb people, and lots and lots of average kids. I personally was bored out of my mind. Even the kids who were at the top of their class were kind of bland.

I agree that the huge advange of going to an elite school is your very stimulating classmates AND all the future connections/networking opportunities that you'll have. It's not to say that you can't have that at your State U., but it's much less likeley

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[Gospe1]

however you're forgetting that (unless you have a bad one) GPA is going to be a lot less important than test scores.

And as for your point about the "higher quality of students" at the top schools, I've never really understood this. My med school class is loaded up with graduates of prestigious colleges (east coast school, so that's bound to happen moreso than back home in the midwest). and I've never really been any more "impressed" with them than the students at my undergrad who went to med school, and I went to a third tier school. Nothing against my class (except mabye a bit of east coast arrogance), but I've never felt the fact I came from a lower tier school than 95% of them has made any difference.

As for the med school issue. I chose the more expensive of my two choices, but if it weren't for the fact that Wayne State has some serious political problems right now I probably wouldn't have made that decision. I like my school, but med school is med school... it's all one big headache .

Are you saying that your undergrad GPA is much less important than MCAT score? I think Adcoms usually say its about 40-40 with the last 20 being ECs. Coming from a very poor state, there is a clear difference for me when i arrived at my undergrad institution. My GPA shows an extreme upward trend, demonstrating that the level of education they expected at my school is above what my HS provided (i was valedictorian). Again, I'm being anecdotal. Getting back to good old stats, if we were to look at Noble Prize winners in the sciences, a huge proportion of them attended very well known schools. Maybe its coincidence. Maybe, like I said, a higher proportion of geniuses congregate at the more prestigious schools.
This has nothing to do with whether its appropriate to attend one of these schools even if it puts you in severe debt, however. If you have good family support and are comfortable with living frugally for a couple of years, I think its appropriate to consider going into debt to attend a more prestigious school with the hopes that it opens up more paths in the future. Thats purely opinion though.

I am not bashing on maestro or any institution in particular. However, I do think that many people dismiss the idea of prestige in our "egalitarian" society. If you look at social mobility in the States, its just about average in relation to the world. Many european countries and China (i believe) have higher social mobility. Money sticks. Education sticks. (As a postscript, I learned this from a fellow undergrad here who, after emigrating from Cuba, has focused on global economics and is planning to do embassy work next year. Just 1 more anecdotal evidence of some pretty amazing people surrounding me.)

 

[Maxprime]

It's pretty difficult to talk about matches because you run into a lot of trouble of figuring out chicken and the egg. People from better institutions DO get better spots with equal numbers, but often I think it's because people assume properly. If I saw someone from bumsville U and someone from Harvard with identical stats, I'd probably say to myself, "He must have done something great to get into Harvard as an undergrad."

The difference, IMO, is that there is no prejudice AGAINST lower-ranked schools for residency. Pre-clinical grades aren't even terribly important to some programs - board scores matter big time (thank god!).

I think that people need to realize that you will be in this place for FOUR YEARS - think about how much you changed from 18-22 in undergrad. You will spend so much time at the school and in the wards, you really need to put yourself in the best place to just be happy and survive.

The average age to get married is somewhere around 26 or 27. Your 20's are often said to be the best years of your life - enjoy them. You may have to work hard in school, but your time away from school really needs to chill you out.

 

[Gospe1]

Here's an anecdote of n=1, but I know a girl who chose MCW over Hopkins, mostly because of the whole idea of one school being a better fit for her. Obviously, Hopkins has a much better reputation as an academic research institute, but if you feel like you might be miserable for four years (which is only going to hurt your academic performance), then going there would be terrible.

I completely agree. If you hate it, you hate it.

 

[Gospe1]

It's pretty difficult to talk about matches because you run into a lot of trouble of figuring out chicken and the egg. People from better institutions DO get better spots with equal numbers, but often I think it's because people assume properly. If I saw someone from bumsville U and someone from Harvard with identical stats, I'd probably say to myself, "He must have done something great to get into Harvard as an undergrad."

The difference, IMO, is that there is no prejudice AGAINST lower-ranked schools for residency. Pre-clinical grades aren't even terribly important to some programs - board scores matter big time (thank god!).

I think that people need to realize that you will be in this place for FOUR YEARS - think about how much you changed from 18-22 in undergrad. You will spend so much time at the school and in the wards, you really need to put yourself in the best place to just be happy and survive.

The average age to get married is somewhere around 26 or 27. Your 20's are often said to be the best years of your life - enjoy them. You may have to work hard in school, but your time away from school really needs to chill you out.

Thats why some schools do blind interviews, so the interviewer does not have preconceived notions. Unfortunately, life is not blind and it pays to advertise with a big Harvard Diploma.

 

[Kthanksbye]

This whole "caliber of people attending" is nothing but pure arrogance. A state school will teach you the same pre-reqs as the most prestigious school in the world, and will probably use the same text books. I'd consider picking a less prestigious school simply to avoid the "caliber of people" who think so poorly of their fellow students, as I'm sure they would be no fun to be around. I happen to go to a state school that would be very low on the radar for people who possess this particular brand of snobbery, but surprisingly, there are quite a few professors who teach here from top tier schools (I've had professors from Harvard, Yale, Duke, etc.) and my genetics teacher is world famous among geneticists. Prestige is not so easily defined as some may think.

 

[luv2sd]

difference in rank means that you will have different facilities and professors at the medical school. oh and a little Name Tag of pride.

 

[maestro1625]

Are you saying that your undergrad GPA is much less important than MCAT score? I think Adcoms usually say its about 40-40 with the last 20 being ECs. Coming from a very poor state, there is a clear difference for me when i arrived at my undergrad institution. My GPA shows an extreme upward trend, demonstrating that the level of education they expected at my school is above what my HS provided (i was valedictorian). Again, I'm being anecdotal. Getting back to good old stats, if we were to look at Noble Prize winners in the sciences, a huge proportion of them attended very well known schools. Maybe its coincidence. Maybe, like I said, a higher proportion of geniuses congregate at the more prestigious schools.
This has nothing to do with whether its appropriate to attend one of these schools even if it puts you in severe debt, however. If you have good family support and are comfortable with living frugally for a couple of years, I think its appropriate to consider going into debt to attend a more prestigious school with the hopes that it opens up more paths in the future. Thats purely opinion though.

I am not bashing on maestro or any institution in particular. However, I do think that many people dismiss the idea of prestige in our "egalitarian" society. If you look at social mobility in the States, its just about average in relation to the world. Many european countries and China (i believe) have higher social mobility. Money sticks. Education sticks. (As a postscript, I learned this from a fellow undergrad here who, after emigrating from Cuba, has focused on global economics and is planning to do embassy work next year. Just 1 more anecdotal evidence of some pretty amazing people surrounding me.)

you're really reaching here...

sure "geniuses" congregate at top undergrad schools, but undergrad school = HS achievement, which I hope you realize by now =/= college achievement. If you feel that having James Watson as your roommate has intellectually stimulated you and has altered your view of society (low blow; dont take me literally), that's fine but the goal of each level of education is to prepare you for the next stage of education or life. And I hate to sound like an arrogant prick here, but if you spent 40k a year and still can't outscore someone who came from a school that accepts 100% of the hs students who applied there...you've just pissed away 4 years of your life and a boatload of your parents' money.

 

[Gospe1]

This whole "caliber of people attending" is nothing but pure arrogance. A state school will teach you the same pre-reqs as the most prestigious school in the world, and will probably use the same text books. I'd consider picking a less prestigious school simply to avoid the "caliber of people" who think so poorly of their fellow students, as I'm sure they would be no fun to be around. I happen to go to a state school that would be very low on the radar for people who possess this particular brand of snobbery, but surprisingly, there are quite a few professors who teach here from top tier schools (I've had professors from Harvard, Yale, Duke, etc.) and my genetics teacher is world famous among geneticists.
.

Again, I'm not trying to bash kthanksbye. I do have some concerns about his argument.


"A state school will teach you the same pre-reqs as the most prestigious school in the world, and will probably use the same text books."
I'm willing to bet money that liberal arts schools such as Amherst, Williams, and Wesleyan have higher average MCAT scores than most state schools (perhaps even Harvard, Yale, and Princeton). They may use the same textbooks but the small class-sizes, availability of the professors, and overall academic environment make a difference.

"I'd consider picking a less prestigious school simply to avoid the "caliber of people" who think so poorly of their fellow students, as I'm sure they would be no fun to be around."
You are really just making a huge generalization here. Just because people attend prestigious schools does not mean they 1) are no fun 2) think poorly of their fellow students. Remarks like this makes me think you are the one raising your nose at me, not the other way around.

"there are quite a few professors who teach here from top tier schools."
It seems that you are contradicting your own argument here. I thought it didn't matter which school they came from. Are you suggesting that a professor from harvard is better than a professor from StateU? If so, what about the caliber of students?

"Prestige is not so easily defined as some may think"
In some respects yes, in some respects no. For example, you can probably ask any child in China about Harvard and he or she would know about it. Thats prestige. You can ask any professor where academic rigor is highest and UChicago or MIT will probably come up. Thats also prestige. Prestige does not equal a good education. A good education does not equal prestige. Your geneticist teacher is world famous. That doesn't automatically make him the best genetic professor right?

 

[Gospe1]

you're really reaching here...

sure "geniuses" congregate at top undergrad schools, but undergrad school = HS achievement, which I hope you realize by now =/= college achievement. If you feel that having James Watson as your roommate has intellectually stimulated you and has altered your view of society (low blow; dont take me literally), that's fine but the goal of each level of education is to prepare you for the next stage of education or life. And I hate to sound like an arrogant prick here, but if you spent 40k a year and still can't outscore someone who came from a school that accepts 100% of the hs students who applied there...you've just pissed away 4 years of your life and a boatload of your parents' money.

"the goal of each level of education is to prepare you for the next stage of education or life."
Right. I guess i put a high premium on my "altered view of society." We spend 4 years not working, with about 5-6 hours of class a day, plenty of breaks, living with friends to do what? Not just to prepare for our careers (in that class, we can do what many other countries do, professional school right after HS) but to also become enlightened about how the world works. The goal of higher education is to alter our view of society in some ways.

"but if you spent 40k a year and still can't outscore someone who came from a school that accepts 100% of the hs students who applied there...you've just pissed away 4 years of your life and a boatload of your parents' money."
2 words: George Bush

I am reaching here, but what can I say, its a public forum right? I agree with you that expensive private education is not for everybody. But for some people, it tends to work out well, no? Lets not dismiss the advantages that these schools do confer upon their students. Whether they are worth 40k, that depends on you and you alone.

HS achievement =/= College achievement?
Umm... I'm pretty sure if we did a study, we would find positive correlation between these two indicators.

 

[Kthanksbye]

Ok, let me de-construct your argument here.
"A state school will teach you the same pre-reqs as the most prestigious school in the world, and will probably use the same text books."
I'm willing to bet money that liberal arts schools such as Amherst, Williams, and Wesleyan have higher average MCAT scores than most state schools (perhaps even Harvard, Yale, and Princeton). They may use the same textbooks but the small class-sizes, availability of the professors, and overall academic environment make a difference.

"I'd consider picking a less prestigious school simply to avoid the "caliber of people" who think so poorly of their fellow students, as I'm sure they would be no fun to be around."
You are really just making a huge generalization here. Just because people attend prestigious schools does not mean they 1) are no fun 2) think poorly of their fellow students. Remarks like this makes me think you are the one raising your nose at me, not the other way around.

"there are quite a few professors who teach here from top tier schools."
It seems that you are contradicting your own argument here. I thought it didn't matter which school they came from. Are you suggesting that a professor from harvard is better than a professor from StateU?

"Prestige is not so easily defined as some may think"
In some respects yes, in some respects no. For example, you can probably ask any child in China about Harvard and he or she would know about it. Thats prestige. You can ask any professor where academic rigor is highest and UChicago or MIT will probably come up. Thats also prestige. Prestige does not equal a good education. A good education does not equal prestige. Prestige (unfortunately) comes from others.

I guess you caught me. I'm just intellectually inferior.

Some things I've learned:

Facts are facts. While small class sizes and teacher attention are all well and good, most learning happens when you're by yourself and motivated. You can do this anywhere, even at a state school.

People are people, no matter where you are or what school they went to. The only reason you don't think people are of the proper caliber for your company is because you won't give them a chance unless they come from an acceptable pedigree for you, i.e. attend the right schools. And yes, that makes one a snob and no fun to be around, sorry.

alcohol consumption = fun? While I'm no teetotaler, I also don't need to get smashed to have a good time, and it's not much of a measure of excitement for me, again I apologize for being a rube. (seems you edited that part out before I captured it...)

If the type of prestige that popular culture values were of any real value to professors in the real world, they would surely rather cower in shame before they'd accept positions at such ignominious state schools such as the one I attend. Most had probably never even heard of it while they were studying blithely away at their highly prestigious post doctoral schools. But the realities of the job market for science professors and research positions make one think differently, and suddenly, a position at even a backwater podunk state university such as my own is one they are now willing to compete for. The point of this is to say that even a state school can draw talented teachers. It is not to suggest that a professor from Harvard is better than a professor from a state school, we have those, too. It is to demonstrate that they compete for the same positions.

Certainly there is some amount of prestige conferred on one because of his school. I'm not living in a fantasy world. I just wonder how much of it is actually deserved.

 

[Gospe1]

I guess you caught me. I'm just intellectually inferior.

Some things I've learned:

Facts are facts. While small class sizes and teacher attention are all well and good, most learning happens when you're by yourself and motivated. You can do this anywhere, even at a state school.

People are people, no matter where you are or what school they went to. The only reason you don't think people are of the proper caliber for your company is because you won't give them a chance unless they come from an acceptable pedigree for you, i.e. attend the right schools. And yes, that makes one a snob and no fun to be around, sorry.

alcohol consumption = fun? While I'm no teetotaler, I also don't need to get smashed to have a good time, and it's not much of a measure of excitement for me, again I apologize for being a rube. (seems you edited that part out before I captured it...)

If the type of prestige that popular culture values were of any real value to professors in the real world, they would surely rather cower in shame before they'd accept positions at such ignominious state schools such as the one I attend. Most had probably never even heard of it while they were studying blithely away at their highly prestigious post doctoral schools. But the realities of the job market for science professors and research positions make one think differently, and suddenly, a position at even a backwater podunk state university such as my own is one they are now willing to compete for. The point of this is to say that even a state school can draw talented teachers. It is not to suggest that a professor from Harvard is better than a professor from a state school, we have those, too. It is to demonstrate that they compete for the same positions.

Certainly there is some amount of prestige conferred on one because of his school. I'm not living in a fantasy world. I just wonder how much of it is actually deserved.

Theres no way to know which one of us is intellectually superior. Medical school acceptances certainly will not. I'm trying to defend my point of view, and in no way do I see you as inferior.

"The only reason you don't think people are of the proper caliber for your company is because you won't give them a chance unless they come from an acceptable pedigree for you, i.e. attend the right schools."
Actually, I'm pretty sure Adcoms look for GPA and MCAT much more than which school you went to. So in the end, people look towards your caliber to observe whether you are of a "proper caliber". I'm also giving you my "company" right now because this is intellectually stimulating albet irrelevant to my career.

I thought the alcohol consumption part was just a fun fact. Although i've heard of advanced research on the correlation between fun at parties and availability of the Captain.

"realities of the job market for science professors and research positions make one think differently, and suddenly, a position at even a backwater podunk state university such as my own is one they are now willing to compete for."
Again, you seem to be refuting your own argument. Lets say that the job market was awesome and these professors can get jobs anywhere. Where would they go? According to you, not the position at "a backwater podunk state university" Or are you just being saracastic here (seriously its hard to tell on the net).

"'m not living in a fantasy world. I just wonder how much of it is actually deserved."
Probably very little. but unfortunately how much of it SHOULD be deserved doesn't equate to how much people DO look at rankings. So, since you are living in the real world, play the game.

 

[45408]

I agree that the huge advange of going to an elite school is your very stimulating classmates AND all the future connections/networking opportunities that you'll have. It's not to say that you can't have that at your State U., but it's much less likeley

I disagree. Out of tons of pre-meds in my gen chem class, I became friends with maybe a half dozen of them, and pretty much all of them are in med school now, while another 100 pre-meds dropped out long before that. You just have to find people with similar interests to you. It would be ridiculous to say that a large state school doesn't have people who are interested in this material and love learning, nor is it hard to find these people - just look for the people who are always in class, study often, and seem to know what's going on in your labs. I went to a big state school, and now I'm in my second year of med school, where the "intellectual caliber" is obviously going to be a lot higher, but the people I associated with in undergrad were right on par.


Besides, a big school will have lots of good-looking business majors going to parties for when you're done with exams.

 

[maestro1625]

"the goal of each level of education is to prepare you for the next stage of education or life."
Right. I guess i put a high premium on my "altered view of society." We spend 4 years not working, with about 5-6 hours of class a day, plenty of breaks, living with friends to do what? Not just to prepare for our careers (in that class, we can do what many other countries do, professional school right after HS) but to also become enlightened about how the world works. The goal of higher education is to alter our view of society in some ways.

but you've demonstrated that your school does this, how? because the median student has a better SAT than the median student at UMass?

"but if you spent 40k a year and still can't outscore someone who came from a school that accepts 100% of the hs students who applied there...you've just pissed away 4 years of your life and a boatload of your parents' money."
2 words: George Bush

not sure that's the point you want to make...

 

[Gospe1]

but you've demonstrated that your school does this, how? because the median student has a better SAT than the median student at UMass?



not sure that's the point you want to make...

I guess because people who attend my school may think the same way as me, and thus together, foster an environment where this sort of thinking exists.

haha, but it is. GW got to where he is now with connections. Whether thats moral or ethical is another question all together. The fact is, he is the president of the US, a position of great power, partially because he went to Yale.

Like I said, you have to play the game sometimes.

 

[maestro1625]

I guess because people who attend my school may think the same way as me, and thus together, foster an environment where this sort of thinking exists.

haha, but it is. GW got to where he is now with connections. Whether thats moral or ethical is another question all together. The fact is, he is the president of the US, a position of great power, partially because he went to Yale.

Like I said, you have to play the game sometimes.

...and he will be judged hundreds of years from now as one of the greatest failures in the history of the American presidency...the fact that he attended yale will no doubt be in the footnotes. But hey, if use your connections move onto med school and end up completely in over your head, you and George will share a nice similarity.

and you define your experienced and educated worldview based on the fact that you're surrounded by people who "think like you?" By that standard, the students at Bob Jones University are the most educated on earth.

 

[Gospe1]

...and he will be judged hundreds of years from now as one of the greatest failures in the history of the American presidency...the fact that he attended yale will no doubt be in the footnotes. But hey, if use your connections move onto med school and end up completely in over your head, you and George will share a nice similarity.



and you define your experienced and educated worldview based on the fact that you're surrounded by people who "think like you?" By that standard, the students at Bob Jones University are the most educated on earth.

Well, I'm not condoning what he does. I'm saying that he was able to achieve much by using his connections. Its not just GW, many presidents went to Yale. It does confer some benefit to achieving the office of presidency. It might also have some benefit when it comes to getting into medical school You conclude by comparing me to GW. Seeing as how my family are not oil barons, I would say that my moving on the med school will be 80% GPA/MCAT and 20% great LORs from the professors that know me well at my school. Also, we have board exams to keep me honest.

Not sure what you mean by that. You asked how does my school provide enlightenment. I answered because my school draws people who want to obtain some sort of enlightenment from their education that doesn't involve their careers. People aiming for a common goal can often achieve it. So at elite schools, the common goal might be to gain that enlightenment. For other schools, the common goal may be to go to professional school. Clearly, there are minorities in each camp but as it seems from our dialogue that at least we have different priorities and we go to very different schools.

 

[CHILLMD]

What about a Top 2 vs. like a Top 20/25? And let's say it wasn't based totally on money, but on location, too?

Would it be crazy to go to a school ranked #23 (or whatever) over Hopkins just because you like it better?

Has anyone in med school done this?

I'm sorry if it's a stupid question, but I'm honestly interested in what people have to say. Clearly it's a nice dilemma to have, and I wouldn't complain if I had that option!

I chose a another top 20 over Hopkins because of money, location, and P/F. I am extremely happy, ecstatic in fact, with my decision. My ultimate guide to choosing a school--- if you have the choice, pick a school with complete P/F with no secrete ranking, at least till 3rd year. Also make sure that school has enough prestige for residency directors to respect your P. Believe me, that's priceless.

 

[maestro1625]

clearly Williams/Amherst/wherever the **** you went didn't teach you to understand sarcasm.

 

[Gospe1]

Clearly irrelevant, disrespectful, and off the mark

 

[154465]

Wow, before this thread I had always assumed I could enlighten myself on my own, but I guess it has to be institutionalized. I go to a big state school and I love it. I love my professors and I love the students. I am fully convinced that I would have gotten the same exact education anywhere else. The whole notion that the caliber of students in your classes has any effect on your education is a load of ****. Sorry.

Of course a highly ranked school will give you a heads up in terms of prestige, and yea people may be impressed. But Britney Spears has the #1 album in the country right now, so I don't trust people much anymore. But rubbing elbows with smart people will not make you smart. It will not give you life experience. And for me, it would not be worth 40k a year as an undergrad.

Also, to answer a previous question - I would pick Loyola or Georgetown over Hopkins any day of the week.

 

[maestro1625]

Clearly irrelevant, disrespectful, and off the mark

thank you...

 

[Gospe1]

Wow, before this thread I had always assumed I could enlighten myself on my own, but I guess it has to be institutionalized. I go to a big state school and I love it. I love my professors and I love the students. I am fully convinced that I would have gotten the same exact education anywhere else. The whole notion that the caliber of students in your classes has any effect on your education is a load of ****. Sorry.

Of course a highly ranked school will give you a heads up in terms of prestige, and yea people may be impressed. But Britney Spears has the #1 album in the country right now, so I don't trust people much anymore. But rubbing elbows with smart people will not make you smart. It will not give you life experience. And for me, it would not be worth 40k a year as an undergrad.

Also, to answer a previous question - I would pick Loyola or Georgetown over Hopkins any day of the week.

"The whole notion that the caliber of students in your classes has any effect on your education is a load of ****." I disagree. Talking with smart people often does provide inspiration for yourself. Just look how Frankenstein was written.

"It will not give you life experience." not personal experience, no. But talking with worldly people does broaden your horizons, no? Thats the basis for multiculturalism. I'm not saying worldly people only go to elite schools but I bet a higher proportion of Yale undergrads have been overseas than students at a StateU.

 

[maestro1625]

yet you still cling to the snotty notion that "smart" people are only found in upper tier schools.

 

[154465]

"The whole notion that the caliber of students in your classes has any effect on your education is a load of ****." I disagree. Talking with smart people often does provide inspiration for yourself. Just look how Frankenstein was written. Of course, each of us have to make our own personal decisions on what an "elite" education is worth. I guess for me, coming from a poor state to my institution has been a big change. I used to think like you Cheetos. Now I don't.

To the first line. B u l l s h i t. The only "smart people" that I need to learn anything from are the scholars who write the books I read day in and day out. If thats what it takes for you to get some perspective then fine. But that is not a bragging point for you.

The second point is so downright condescending that I won't go into any further elaboration as to how much of a tool I think you are.

 

[moomix906]

Well, I'm not condoning what he does. I'm saying that he was able to achieve much by using his connections. Its not just GW, many presidents went to Yale. It does confer some benefit to achieving the office of presidency.

hahahahahahahahaha thats funny

isnt it ironic that bush actually tried to distance himself from yale when running for governor because people accused him of being an east coast educated outsider. but no big deal, hey, his daddy insulted harvard when running against dukakis but apparently didnt see any problems with sending dubya there for an MBA

btw, besides the bushies and clinton, did you mean taft(1909) or ford(1974)? sorry i dont want to come off as mean but thats really naive

 

[Gospe1]

yet you still cling to the snotty notion that "smart" people are only found in upper tier schools.

I think i already said that smart people are not only found at upper tier schools. I feel that upper tier schools do have a high proportion of very smart people.

 

[Gospe1]

hahahahahahahahaha thats funny

isnt it ironic that bush actually tried to distance himself from yale when running for governor because people accused him of being an east coast educated outsider. but no big deal, hey, his daddy insulted harvard when running against dukakis but apparently didnt see any problems with sending dubya there for an MBA

btw, besides the bushies and clinton, did you mean taft(1909) or ford(1974)? sorry i dont want to come off as mean but thats really naive

Well 4 presidents from 1 school is pretty good if you consider the odds... Also, I guess i was factoring in the opponents as well. Kerry for example.

 

[Gospe1]

To the first line. B u l l s h i t. The only "smart people" that I need to learn anything from are the scholars who write the books I read day in and day out. If thats what it takes for you to get some perspective then fine. But that is not a bragging point for you.

The second point is so downright condescending that I won't go into any further elaboration as to how much of a tool I think you are.

Clearly, it is offensive. I will take down the post. As for the first line, I met one guy on campus the other day who writes for the Slate. I mean, he must have something worth learning from no? Why isn't it a bragging point for me? Schools publish the percentage of Valedictorians, published authors, etc all the time.

 

[154465]

Clearly, I have offended. I will take down the post. As for the first line, I met one guy on campus the other day who writes for the Slate. I mean, he must have something worth learning from no?

Is that worth 40k a year? Can't you just read the Slate? would he not publish anything he believed to be thought provoking for you to benefit from?

There is more to education than heart to hearts in an ivory tower.

 

[maestro1625]

btw, I'm not sure how someone could talk presidential politics without knowing of Bob Jones University...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Jones_University#2000_Election

 

[Gospe1]

Is that worth 40k a year? Can't you just read the Slate? would he not publish anything he believed to be thought provoking for you to benefit from?

There is more to education than heart to hearts in an ivory tower.

Totally. I completely agree that it might not be worth 40k. Thats why i said its a personal decision at the end. Also, i think the concept of the ivory tower is true in some instances, false in others. Some of the best colleges in the country also have the highest percentage of college seniors who do teach for america or peace corp.

I would rather talk to Benjamin Franklin than read his autobiography.

 

[Gospe1]

Thank you for redirecting my ignorance Maestro. I really haven't heard about that school until today.

 

[154465]

Totally. I completely agree that it might not be worth 40k. Thats why i said its a personal decision at the end. Also, i think the concept of the ivory tower is true in some instances, false in others. Some of the best colleges in the country also have the highest percentage of college seniors who do teach for america or peace corp.

I would rather talk to Benjamin Franklin than read his autobiography.

True, but you can't use the example of someone who is so highly esteemed in history as comparison with your classmates. And Ben might have been a real dick who couldn't hold down a conversation or give you the time of day.

Anyways, sorry for coming off as hostile. I think I made my point and anything else is

 

[Gospe1]

True, but you can't use the example of someone who is so highly esteemed in history as comparison with your classmates. And Ben might have been a real dick who couldn't hold down a conversation or give you the time of day.

Anyways, sorry for coming off as hostile. I think I made my point and anything else is

You have. I totally understand and respect your opinion. I actually transfered OUT of a private HS to go to a public HS because I thought it wasn't worth it. If you noticed, i actually just edited out the fact that in no way do i think this guy is the same caliber as BF. However, its just nice sometimes to talk to people instead of reading their words.

"And Ben might have been a real dick who couldn't hold down a conversation or give you the time of day."
hahahahaha, He did start UPenn, therefore instigating this huge debate that we've had today.

 

[maestro1625]

Just think you could have been been John Nash's roommate...

...you might not exist!!!!!!!

...ok, I really need to go to bed now.

 

[154465]

You have. I totally understand and respect your opinion. I actually transfered OUT of a private HS to go to a public HS because I thought it wasn't worth it. If you noticed, i actually just edited out the fact that in no way do i think this guy is the same caliber as BF. However, its just nice sometimes to talk to people instead of reading their words.

I completely understand. It is important to have intelligent conversation, and sometimes you need to go out of your way to find that. For me, my fiancee is the most intelligent person that I know and I have no lack of stimulating convo. If I didn't have that I would probably go looking for it.

 

[45408]

Just think you could have been been John Nash's roommate...

...you might not exist!!!!!!!

...ok, I really need to go to bed now.

okay, that made me laugh

 

[TM2006]

going back to the topic....

consider the following:

1. the dollar will continue to lose its value - inflation is inevitable - aka what you owe in 10 years will be significantly less than its current value today. Do not try to calculate your debt based on today's dollars...

2. half of the kids at Harvard end up in the residency programs at Harvard


look you can end up in the best residencies from any medical school...but if you are going to a less prestigious university you have to be the TOP student in your program to get there. You have to do average to do that the same at a TOP school.

*aka state u sends 1 kid to Mass Gen, Harvard sends 30

 

[Maxprime]

going back to the topic....

consider the following:

1. the dollar will continue to lose its value - inflation is inevitable - aka what you owe in 10 years will be significantly less than its current value today. Do not try to calculate your debt based on today's dollars...

2. half of the kids at Harvard end up in the residency programs at Harvard


look you can end up in the best residencies from any medical school...but if you are going to a less prestigious university you have to be the TOP student in your program to get there. You have to do average to do that the same at a TOP school.

*aka state u sends 1 kid to Mass Gen, Harvard sends 30

But, if you can get into Harvard but go to your state school - shouldn't you probably be at the top of your state school?

I'd like to note that the one obvious and undeniable benefit that an upper-tier offers is networking. The people that I know that went to Harvard undergrad all know people at the top med schools. If you want to transfer hospitals and know someone, it's a huge leg up.

It's SDN, so people rarely say things like this. But is nobody here a college football fan? I went to Texas undergrad, I don't know if I could spend 4 years at Oklahoma - it would be a tough call.

 

[45408]

1. the dollar will continue to lose its value - inflation is inevitable - aka what you owe in 10 years will be significantly less than its current value today. Do not try to calculate your debt based on today's dollars...

This is poor advice. Inflation is pretty much guaranteed to be significantly less than the interest rate on your loans, so your debt WILL be larger.

 

[wjustice]

Do you think that that more expensive medical schools have a higher percentage of students coming from wealthier backgrounds. . .ie. their parents are making larger contributions to their medical school education? I got the feeling that students at the private schools I visited in general seemed to be from wealthier backgrounds than at my state school. In the financial sessions at the private schools I interviewed at, they kept on talking about "family contributions." I don't think I'm going to have a "family contribution" if I attend a school like this. So my debt coming out will be anywhere from $200-240k. . .if I'm even allowed to borrow this much. However, the average debt at these schools is around $130k. I know one of these schools offers merit scholarships to a few students. . .this can't affect the average too much. So I'm still trying to figure out if it is actually possible to manage $240,000 in debt, and I'm wondering how many medical students actually do it.

 

[aaj117]

So I'm still trying to figure out if it is actually possible to manage $240,000 in debt, and I'm wondering how many medical students actually do it.

::Raises hand:: Not that i don't have a lot of debt from princeton, cuz i do, but i anticipate racking up that much debt. My family will not be making any contributions to this endeavor, and everything will either be loans or grants. this is why i will be holding mutiple acceptances until i get fiancial aid packages and figure it all out. with my gpa i don't anticipate any merit based money, but i am looking a lot at schools that will start giving them to you second year if you honor everything first year. I would definitely love to go to a school like howard, work my butt off to honor everything, and get trustee grants the rest of the time. Probably not likely, but a nice dream none the less.

 

[TM2006]

This is poor advice. Inflation is pretty much guaranteed to be significantly less than the interest rate on your loans, so your debt WILL be larger.

not in today's dollars...

aka...

if i borrow (plus interest & all other fees) a grand calculated (projected) total of $230,000 (today's dollars), by the time I have to repay those loans the 230,000 will not seem as much as it did when I calculated them.

My income will be more/the dollar will be weaker/etc etc etc

 

[maestro1625]

going back to the topic....

consider the following:

1. the dollar will continue to lose its value - inflation is inevitable - aka what you owe in 10 years will be significantly less than its current value today. Do not try to calculate your debt based on today's dollars...

2. half of the kids at Harvard end up in the residency programs at Harvard


look you can end up in the best residencies from any medical school...but if you are going to a less prestigious university you have to be the TOP student in your program to get there. You have to do average to do that the same at a TOP school.

*aka state u sends 1 kid to Mass Gen, Harvard sends 30

well aside from your pseudoeconomic reasonings there, you forget the fact that half the kids at Tufts end up at residency programs at Tufts, half the kids at Ohio State end up at residency programs at Ohio State...and so on. Harvard isn't the be all and end all of residency training. (warning, anecdotal evidence) Hell, my dad has brought up the fact that he wishes he would have gone to WashU instead of Mass General for his fellowship.

 

[artaxerxes]

Here's an anecdote of n=1, but I know a girl who chose MCW over Hopkins, mostly because of the whole idea of one school being a better fit for her. Obviously, Hopkins has a much better reputation as an academic research institute, but if you feel like you might be miserable for four years (which is only going to hurt your academic performance), then going there would be terrible.

what about the opposite situation, I know someone chose StateU (high 40s) over a top 7 school primarily for money(saved perhaps 30K a year), and maybe closer to family. He's unhappy about it.

Since my state school absolutely hate me for no apparent reason, this situation won't even matter for me.

 

[maestro1625]

what about the opposite situation, I know someone chose StateU (high 40s) over a top 7 school primarily for money(saved perhaps 30K a year), and maybe closer to family. He's unhappy about it.

Since my state school absolutely hate me for no apparent reason, this situation won't even matter for me.

even for anecdotal evidence you have to at least give context for said hate.

 

[artaxerxes]

even for anecdotal evidence you have to at least give context for said hate.

no invite, completed in july, many others invited already, stats significantly above average...etc, oh and got into another state's school thats ranked 30+ spots higher.
He's probably unhappy cause he knew he has the stats for a better school and did get into a much better research institution.

 

[45408]

not in today's dollars...

aka...

if i borrow (plus interest & all other fees) a grand calculated (projected) total of $230,000 (today's dollars), by the time I have to repay those loans the 230,000 will not seem as much as it did when I calculated them.

My income will be more/the dollar will be weaker/etc etc etc

I don't know what you're trying to argue here. The interest rate on your loans will almost certainly outpace inflation and the increase in a doctor's salary. Your advice that people not worry as much about the size of their debt is foolish.

what you owe in 10 years will be significantly less than its current value today.

This is simply not true. I realize what you're trying to say, but if you take out $200,000, by the time you pay it back, you'll actually be paying back $300,000, which is slightly ameliorated by the fact that your income has also increased over the duration of that loan, but the $200,000 grew into a larger sum than your income was growing.

 

[TM2006]

well aside from your pseudoeconomic reasonings there, you forget the fact that half the kids at Tufts end up at residency programs at Tufts, half the kids at Ohio State end up at residency programs at Ohio State...and so on. Harvard isn't the be all and end all of residency training. (warning, anecdotal evidence) Hell, my dad has brought up the fact that he wishes he would have gone to WashU instead of Mass General for his fellowship.

...

are you seriously comparing Ohio State/Tufts to Harvard/Wash U residency programs?