MD & DO Does my school suck? Or are they all like this?

[SUP360]

Need advice, please!!


==They won’t let me switch physical check-off dates so I can take my husband for surgery (even though there is space in the schedule) (They would give me an incomplete for the semester and I wouldn’t get a Pass until I did the check off next semester.)

==They won’t let me switch PBL groups for one day so I can attend a conference. (I would just have to miss and then do a make-up assignment.) (Even though they switched people around all the time for “scheduling conflicts.”)

==I am only allowed to set up 2 shadowing times of 4 hours each, max. I shadowed an awesome ED physician and she offered to let me come any time, and I think she could be a great mentor. So I double checked with the shadowing coordinator and she said ONLY SHE could set up shadows and I could only shadow the physician one more time this semester, and then I wouldn’t be allowed to shadow any more times.

Those are the three main issues right now. I had issues from the beginning when they wouldn’t tell me my orientation schedule, so I could be able to set up pet care and appointments. I was held to a double standard and graded completely unfairly on another exam check off. I really want to do research, but there is a rule that they won’t help us get involved in research first semester..... etc.


How typical is this? If this is the way it is, I’ll just zip my lips and grit through it. But if my school is truly being unfair, I’d like to speak up.


Advice????

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[MSTPlease]

Need advice, please!!


==They won’t let me switch physical check-off dates so I can take my husband for surgery (even though there is space in the schedule) (They would give me an incomplete for the semester and I wouldn’t get a Pass until I did the check off next semester.)

==They won’t let me switch PBL groups for one day so I can attend a conference. (I would just have to miss and then do a make-up assignment.) (Even though they switched people around all the time for “scheduling conflicts.”)

==I am only allowed to set up 2 shadowing times of 4 hours each, max. I shadowed an awesome ED physician and she offered to let me come any time, and I think she could be a great mentor. So I double checked with the shadowing coordinator and she said ONLY SHE could set up shadows and I could only shadow the physician one more time this semester, and then I wouldn’t be allowed to shadow any more times.

Those are the three main issues right now. I had issues from the beginning when they wouldn’t tell me my orientation schedule, so I could be able to set up pet care and appointments. I was held to a double standard and graded completely unfairly on another exam check off. I really want to do research, but there is a rule that they won’t help us get involved in research first semester..... etc.


How typical is this? If this is the way it is, I’ll just zip my lips and grit through it. But if my school is truly being unfair, I’d like to speak up.


Advice????

1 and 3 definitely don't sound like my school - like I can't even imagine that. They probably would do the switch for the PBL but I could at least imagine them not doing it and making someone do a makeup assignment instead.

For your 2nd paragraph: Not finding out orientation schedule until right before it starts is def not unique to your school. Maybe I don't understand what a check off is since you're talking about being graded... and my school encourages research, even among 1st years.

 

[Tenk]

Nobody monitors shadowing or students in the ED. Just get that attending’s email, find out their schedule and show up. Nobody will even notice you other than the attending.

 

[SouthernGent]

Yeah, those three are all your school. Mine does plenty of stupid stuff too, but not that. We get our own special flavor of idiocracy... Anyways, for shadowing the ED doc: Just go. Forgiveness rather than permission, and you have the attending on your side.

 

[SUP360]

Nobody monitors shadowing or students in the ED. Just get that attending’s email, find out their schedule and show up. Nobody will even notice you other than the attending.

K. Should I wear my white coat and student name badge or just wear scrubs and a generic student badge?

 

[raiderette]

K. Should I wear my white coat and student name badge or just wear scrubs and a generic student badge?

If most people who shadow wear the white coat, then wear it. Definitely wear your student badge. Unless that administrator walks through, who will know or care?
That being said, let the attending know that this is not an official, school-organized shadow opportunity. I doubt she will care.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Is the shadowing for credit or part of your curriculum? otherwise that doesn't seem make much sense beyond maybe leaving open opportunities for other students to shadow.

 

[Save a life]

Yeah that “do not shadow” thing sounds really weird.

I shadow all the time at multiple hospitals with white coat and name badge. Totally unofficial without any “permission” from my school. I simply email physicians in specialties I’m interested in and show up. We also have a class with required clinic experience and this is more than shadowing with interviewing and physicals.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I agree 1 and 3 sounds stupid. For the shadowing, just do it like others have said. As for the husband surgery thing, who is it that wouldn’t let you switch? That’s the kind of thing you could climb the ladder for. We had a professor try and do that to a student who was literally having a baby and he told our class president who went straight to admin and they immediately let the student switch.

Every school does dumb stuff though, so I would get used to it.

 

[Stagg737]

Yeah that “do not shadow” thing sounds really weird.

I shadow all the time at multiple hospitals with white coat and name badge. Totally unofficial without any “permission” from my school. I simply email physicians in specialties I’m interested in and show up. We also have a class with required clinic experience and this is more than shadowing with interviewing and physicals.

My school does the same thing, it is a liability issue. When you are a 3rd year medical student many physicians will allow you to participate in procedures or do things with patients that they would not let pre-medical students do.

Normally if something were to happen during a clinical rotation and a patient sued, the school's malpractice insurance would cover it. However if something happens When you're shadowing, you are not covered by the schools malpractice insurance and the school could also be held liable in a lawsuit.

This is also why when you apply for away rotations on VSAS, many places will have malpractice insurance requirements in place. Because if you're named in a lawsuit they don't want to have to deal with the potential financial fallout.

 

[Save a life]

My school does the same thing, it is a liability issue. When you are a 30 year medical student many physicians will allow you to participate in procedures or do things with patients that they would not let pre-medical students do.

Normally if something were to happen during a clinical rotation and a patient sued, the school's malpractice insurance would cover it. However if something happens Whrn you're shadowing, you are not covered by the schools malpractice insurance and the school could also be held liable in a lawsuit.

This is also why when you apply for away rotations on VSAS, many places will have malpractice insurance requirements in place. Because if you're named in a lawsuit they don't want to have to deal with the potential fallout.

That makes since, I didn’t think of this. Most of the shadowing I’ve done has been shadowing and not direct patient care so I don’t see why my school would care. In fact, a lot of our lecturers that are physicians say to email them if anyone wants to shadow.

 

[MSTPlease]

My school does the same thing, it is a liability issue. When you are a 3rd year medical student many physicians will allow you to participate in procedures or do things with patients that they would not let pre-medical students do.

Normally if something were to happen during a clinical rotation and a patient sued, the school's malpractice insurance would cover it. However if something happens When you're shadowing, you are not covered by the schools malpractice insurance and the school could also be held liable in a lawsuit.

This is also why when you apply for away rotations on VSAS, many places will have malpractice insurance requirements in place. Because if you're named in a lawsuit they don't want to have to deal with the potential financial fallout.

There's a reason one is called "shadowing" and the other is a "clerkship."

Even if liability were the issue (I doubt it is), why is the school ok with 8 hours of liability for every student but not more than that? They should forbid shadowing outright if that is the concern.

 

[Stagg737]

There's a reason one is called "shadowing" and the other is a "clerkship."

Even if liability were the issue (I doubt it is), why is the school ok with 8 hours of liability for every student but not more than that? They should forbid shadowing outright if that is the concern.

They likely have something built into their insurance coverage which allows for some limited amount of outside coverage. Or maybe they allow those shadowing hours within their institution or with approved attendings. The likelihood of needing the liability coverage is low, as it's not likely that a student would be named in a lawsuit, but if they were the school wants to cover their butts.

As to difference between "shadowing" and "clerkship", there's not always such a major difference. I was an EMT before med school and because of that I was allowed to do some hands on stuff during my shadowing/volunteer work that most people wouldn't get to do (starting a line for example) which could potentially lead to liability. Med students are also allowed to do more that pre-meds. So while a med student might just ask to shadow, some attendings may allow them to do more which could create the liability issue.

I personally think the policy is stupid, but so are a lot of lawsuits which creates a need for stupid unnecessary policies like this one.

 

[MSTPlease]

They likely have something built into their insurance coverage which allows for some limited amount of outside coverage. Or maybe they allow those shadowing hours within their institution or with approved attendings. The likelihood of needing the liability coverage is low, as it's not likely that a student would be named in a lawsuit, but if they were the school wants to cover their butts.

As to difference between "shadowing" and "clerkship", there's not always such a major difference. I was an EMT before med school and because of that I was allowed to do some hands on stuff during my shadowing/volunteer work that most people wouldn't get to do (starting a line for example) which could potentially lead to liability. Med students are also allowed to do more that pre-meds. So while a med student might just ask to shadow, some attendings may allow them to do more which could create the liability issue.

I personally think the policy is stupid, but so are a lot of lawsuits which creates a need for stupid unnecessary policies like this one.

I think you’re giving the school way too much credit. There’s simply no legal liability logic for an institution that allows students to actively participate in care (and students don’t have work hour restrictions like residents) but needs to have a limit that is not 0 on the amount of time students can passively watch licensed providers provide care.

It’s something else: some weird attempt at “being fair,” attendings have complained, the school wants to limit the amount of reasons for students to skip lectures, something else maybe? I don’t know, but it’s definitely not their insurance that says “students may only shadow for two episodes of 4 hours”

 

[Donald Juan]

I think you’re giving the school way too much credit. There’s simply no legal liability logic for an institution that allows students to actively participate in care (and students don’t have work hour restrictions like residents) but needs to have a limit that is not 0 on the amount of time students can passively watch licensed providers provide care.

It’s something else: some weird attempt at “being fair,” attendings have complained, the school wants to limit the amount of reasons for students to skip lectures, something else maybe? I don’t know, but it’s definitely not their insurance that says “students may only shadow for two episodes of 4 hours”

Agree with the above. I do not think it is a legal issue. You are a student at the school and you are covered to do things that students do. Every person who walks into the hospital signs a consent form agreeing to be part of educational training and have students participate in their care. This rule sounds like some made up thing for administrators probably because of some student in the past trying to shadow non-stop, or saying their grades suffered because of shadowing.