Is it better to pick a school that has a strong reputation/prestige over a newer-established veterinary school program? How much of a difference will it make when applying for jobs, internships, or residencies?
Does the level of university prestige matter when applying for jobs/internships post-graduation?
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Prestige isn't really a thing in the vet school world.
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Very little unless your specific potential employer harbors a weird grudge against some schools. Honestly, we have so few schools that the difference in degree of "prestige" (whatever that even means) between them is negligible.
It is much more important to a) pick a financially feasible school and b) pick a school where you will be happy. Do not turn down a perfectly reasonable in-state school that is mid-ranked because you think going to one of top 5 ranked schools will somehow make you automatically better off career-wise (rankings are also relatively useless, but that is another topic)
Internships and especially residencies rely much more on networking that prestige, especially if you are interested in one of the smaller specialties where everyone knows everyone. If you go to a school that has lower "prestige" but build strong connections within your proposed field, that will serve you much better than simply relying on name.
Thanks for your opinion. I was just talking to one of my professors today who basically thought I was being dumb for the school I told him I wanted as my first choice because he thought it wasn't as "prestigious." I know my first choice is a newer school and they don't have a strong reputation yet, but when I visited the school I really liked their campus and think they have a strong veterinary program. My professor was just questioning why I would choose a newer program over one that is well-established.
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I mean, if they have accreditation (or in LMU's case, provisional accreditation), they are essentially viewed as equal in terms of education and the program's ability to churn out prepared grads. LMU just has to have their 2018 class do well on the NAVLE and graduate. Like WTF said, some people might have their own biases, but that's a personal problem.
With that being said, it's also worth remembering that you may start school with one career goal, and leave with another. Choosing a school that might cost you 2-3x the tuition or be in a location you really hate solely because they have a specific faculty member or supposedly have a good reputation for a field you're initially interested in isn't always the best idea. You'll be SOL if that faculty member leaves or the department loses a lot of people and more or less dissolves.
Not that Illinois would know anything about that.
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I'm more questioning why you'd choose an incredibly pricey program over a cheaper option. I also think you need to view other programs , you'll see many of them have strong programs and actually have a full teaching hospital with updated facilities that LMU doesn't have.
Honestly, put cost as to priority. It is 1,000,000% the top consideration for vet school choice.
How is Illinois? Illinois is my in-state and aside from the cost being less I don't exactly have the best impression of their school...
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Welp, you're asking one of the right people! You can message me if you want to be more specific/direct with your questions...but I'll admit the school has had problems since I started last year. No school is perfect, but the students/staff/faculty here have been put through some frustrations for sure. In defense of the school, a good chunk of it is completely out of their hands due to lack of the state budget. However, many of us have our own thoughts about how they chose to handle that hurdle, especially when it comes to the class of 2020. We also lost our radiologist, which was another blow, but there are other schools that function without a boarded radiologist in the hospital. So far, the main office has been pretty quiet about what's going on lately other than the fact our accreditation is now under review due to the "accidental" massive 2020 class. AVMA is visiting us at some point in the near future. The first years don't seem to feel they're lacking in their education, though. We have a school-wide meeting with the dean coming up to get updates, but he usually evades every single question he's asked so...lol.
We now actually have classrooms to learn in, which is great. Our zoo/wildlife opportunities are strong as always, and that aspect of the school is quickly becoming it's #1 attractant for students, faculty, and donations. Again, feel free to message me with any other questions.
@cloverbug might have things to say.
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Very much agreed.
Thanks! I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future. Sounds stressful there right now. I toured the school this past summer and the whole vibe of the school seemed really stressed so that explains why!
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A "less prestigious" or lower-ranked school is somewhat different IMO than a school without full accreditation or a teaching hospital. Those to me are indeed detriments - mostly the latter. That and the cost.
Would I automatically look down on an LMU grad? No. Would I be extra careful interviewing them to make sure they had enough clinical skills that are usually gained in a teaching hospital environment (because I personally don't like the farming out to individual clinics method)? Yep.
Illinois is a very, very solid school. I would give it another look. Mostly due to the $$.
Course I may be biased because one of my good friends is a prof there now, hah.
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Can I ask when you toured?
When I first toured the school, I didn't realize my tour was during exams. I thought everyone was stressed as well (they were). Don't hold our stressed vibes against us, lol. Day to day, the changes and hurdles aren't that bad, and this is coming from someone who, with her class, had to have lectures several times a week in the anatomy lab next to cadavers.
I toured in July this year. Not too much going on at that time because of summer vacation. Which probably didn't help either. I guess touring when a lot is under construction isn't going to help with my school impression also. I am not ruling my in-state out by any means, I just wish they are more responsive when it comes to answering questions, emails, and letting us know what is going on with our applications. I know they are under-staffed but if they want people to go to their school it would be nice if they can at least answer an email/phone call.
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This is me probably being under a rock, but what's the reasoning behind your school's accreditation going under review?
I am not ruling Illinois out at all! I just was curious if rank and newness (which I can see as separate topics too) affect opinions of school choice upon graduation. I really appreciate your honest feedback!
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The other thing with rank is you have to think of your source. One of them pretty much has the schools rank each other. I remember Kansas State making a big deal about it when I interviewed there, they mentioned that they refuse to even get involved in that ranking system, and hence always get ranked last or close to last.
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Our class of 2020 "accidentally" has 160 students instead of the 'planned' 130. AVMA is making sure that the class of 2020 is receiving the level of education AVMA expects the school to offer. As of now, we haven't had accreditation suspended or anything like that. The first years seem to feel like they're being taken care of, so I'm not expecting anything crazy to happen, but you never know. Facilities are being looked at during the review, and they may have the some suggestions to make.
Just FYI, our main office is at less than half capacity. They have like 3 people dealing with 1000 of you. I wouldn't take that as a reason to push your IS school down your list, but that's my opinion! As for touring during July...maybe you were picking up on 4th year stress. Idk.
Edit: I also want to add that for any school, you get out what you put in. If you're one of the types to constantly complain at every inconvenience and put minimal effort in because you think everything sucks....well, you'll feel worse off than your classmates.
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Agreed - many of the things they use to rank schools are either stupid, biased, or unrelated to academic performance and quality. Like "alumni financial contributions" and "average GRE in incoming students" and stuff like that. Connecting that to quality of education is long shot.
Sometimes it is even a just ONE nebulous question that are answered by the deans and faculty, not even the graduates, and the response rate is generally only around 50%.
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/us-news-reveals-how-it-ranks-veterinary-schools :
To arrive at the rankings, U.S. News sent surveys to veterinary school deans and chairs of the pre-clinical and clinical science departments. With eight weeks to return the surveys, the response rate was 49 percent, according to U.S. News’ website.
Respondents rated each of the 28 schools as 5 (outstanding), 4 (strong), 3 (good), 2 (adequate) and 1 (marginal), or they could select “Don’t know.” The instructions asked respondents to “consider all factors that contribute to or give evidence of the excellence of the school’s programs, for example, curriculum, record of scholarship, quality of faculty and graduates,” according to a sample survey U.S. News provided dvm360.
So basically it is just as way for school administrations to **** on one another.
From another source on US News rankings - specifically what they used to look at which isnt much better - "A peer assessment score and an assessment score by residency directors makes up 40% of the total score; 30% is made up of the total funding allocated to the school for research, additionally calculating research dollars per full-time faculty member; and the remaining 30% of the score is composed of faculty resources (ratio to students) and student selectivity factors such as mean undergraduate GPA, mean VCAT score (guess this particular one was before the switch, but the main gist of the rankings hasn't changed much), and student acceptance rate."
The AAVMC even says it themselves in their Prevet FAQ:
http://aavmc.org/prevetfaq.aspx#10
"Is a veterinary school's ranking important?" No. Each of the veterinary schools has unique aspects about their educational programs, specialty areas, faculty, geographic location, etc. It’s really like comparing apples to oranges. All accredited veterinary schools deliver a standard quality of education meeting the requirements of the AVMA/COE.
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I wouldn't pay any attention to the 'rankings' lists, but I would definitely try to avoid the ultra-new schools and schools without a teaching hospital. I have a hard time understanding how these schools can provide as much of an in-depth education as the traditional veterinary schools... and unfortunately, the student that I met from LMU last summer did not do much to alleviate my concerns. Whether it's rational or not, I would be less inclined to want to interview a student who went to LMU. If they were the only resume that I received, I'd give them a chance. If I received a stack of similar resumes, the student who went to LMU would end up at the bottom of the pile. (Maybe that's harsh, but trying to answer honestly!!)
Also, as was stated above, go to the cheapest school that you can get into. Seriously. That matters more than anything else.
Also, as was stated above, go to the cheapest school that you can get into. Seriously. That matters more than anything else.
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Rankings don't matter and neither does "prestige", but history does.......that is, it will take a while for the new schools to show that their grads are (on average) as good as grads from other schools. New schools always take a while to prove their stuff -- in the same way Ross grads were looked on suspiciously for a while until several years and more numbers of as-good-as-everyone-else graduates working in the system created a good reputation for the school.
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That's a good way of putting it.
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There is also something to be said for locale. If you know where you want to practice and live, it probably gives you a minor (emphasis on minor) boost to go to school there, if they have one. People tend to favor local grads.
That said, I almost hesitate to even mention it, because I think it's a really minor factor. I'd focus on cost as my primary and secondary and tertiary concerns if I were you.
QFT. And I think it was that way with Ross for a while but is finally changing, and Western, and ... etc. People view new schools skeptically, because new is an unknown quantity. It's human nature. It might not be fair, but it's the real world.
(I'm personally not impressed with LMU for other reasons, which also might not be fair, but it is what it is.)
That said, I almost hesitate to even mention it, because I think it's a really minor factor. I'd focus on cost as my primary and secondary and tertiary concerns if I were you.
QFT. And I think it was that way with Ross for a while but is finally changing, and Western, and ... etc. People view new schools skeptically, because new is an unknown quantity. It's human nature. It might not be fair, but it's the real world.
(I'm personally not impressed with LMU for other reasons, which also might not be fair, but it is what it is.)
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And also potentially because your profs may know local vets or vice versa when it come to getting recommendations or references -- as you said, a minor factor.
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deleted498041
100%, for both of your posts. One of the internships I'm applying to has a little session where externs get to sit down with the intern coordinator and hear about the program and ask some questions. She graduated from the IS school, where the internship is located. One of the externs was currently attending that school. She spent part of the session advising the extern on professors to consider asking for letters from because she knew those clinicians because she had attended that school. It's not a huge bump when it comes to your application, but it's a little minor boost that could be nice to have in your back pocket.
On the subject of a teaching hospital, I don't think having one is necessary to be a good vet student or a good vet. Hopefully I'll be proving that wrong in about seven months
That being said, I come from a school without one and I wish we had had one. I understand the pros and cons and I'm lucky enough to be a student that is benefiting greatly from the "pros" column and not experiencing many of the "cons," but a good friend of mine has just had an awful start to her fourth year that I don't think would be so consistently bad in a VMTH -- without giving away too many details. On the subject of applying for jobs and internships however? I feel like it's common advice to have an academic letter when applying for internships, and I believe that's a little more difficult for students that lacked a VMTH. Just one more small thing to consider.
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An established school with strong departments and well-known professors will be better able to network on your behalf, from what I understand. I have also been told by several people who work in private hospitals (places where schools farm out their students for clinical education) that they feel bad for the students, knowing what an academic experience in a teaching hospital is like.
Do those students become bad vets? No, I don't think so. But they may have to work harder for their education. Additionally, there are opportunities that come with a teaching hospital that can be harder to attain without one. For example, it is relatively easy to find work in the teaching hospital as a surgery tech, ward tech, etc. This builds experience and relationships with the faculty that can expand your knowledge and open doors.
There are many factors in choosing a school and personal fit, cost, presence of a teaching hospital are only some of them. If ranking is important to you, then it's a factor. If it's not, then it probably isn't. Just be sure the school is strong. You only get one veterinary education.
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This is a neat thread - very informational! I'm wondering the same question, but in relation to being a current vet student and perhaps seeking office in SAVMA?
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Frankly, sometimes the academic experience in teaching hospitals sucks, and far, far more is learned on external placements. My final year in the teaching hospital varied from excellent to horrible, depending on which service, and which doctors, I was working with.
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Yep, it's totally variable. But private hospitals are not by nature teaching institutions, so they aren't always built to teach. I'm not saying that you can't learn tons from private hospital experiences, but it's a very different experience sometimes, for better or worse.
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Yup.
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Totally off topic - but haven't seen you around in a long while! Hope life is treating you kindly.
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For what it's worth, I prefer dedication, knowledge, potential and depth ... over names and letterhead logos. But that's just my practice and protocol.
If you have positive potential and positive qualities (e.g., knowledge, passion, good decision-maker, communicative, kindness/compassion, willingness to learn, work hard, and be a productive team player for the benefit of your patient), you're welcome to join my practice, classroom or project.
Concerning networking for jobs, internships and residencies: if you're referred to me by a specialist (or professor) with whom I am professionally familiar, I'll pay extra attention to your LORs and other documents. Reason: Based on my familiarity with the specialist/professor, I have had enough time to develop sufficient trust in the specialist's judgment, opinions, knowledge and professional expertise (irrespective of the alma mater of the specialist/professor).
As @hygebeorht stated above: "Just be sure the school is strong. You only get one veterinary education."
Choose the best DVM path for you ... and make it the optimal path for your future goals!
Thank you.
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I don't think many people say it's necessary - that would be an overstatement. But I think many people feel it is generally conducive to a more predictable stable education for most students.
I mean, it's not necessary that you come from a rich family to be rich. But your odds are a lot better if you do. Know what I mean? Nobody is saying you can't be a great vet coming from Western or one of the newer schools with a teaching hospital. But there are really valid questions about the consistency of the education in that environment.
It's hard to have this discussion because of built-in bias - I went to a school with a teaching hospital, so I have a bias. You are at one without, so it is really hard for you to not feel some defensiveness about it. (I'm not saying your responsive was needlessly defensive - you were articulate and reasonable - I'm just saying it's hard not to feel SOME defensiveness about the topic.)
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deleted498041
You're totally right, and I absolutely agree with you! Also, I just want to reiterate that despite coming from a school without a teaching hospital, I would prefer that schools had teaching hospitals. I would prefer that I came from a school with a teaching hospital. I wouldn't say I regret the path I chose or where I've ended up but you are absolutely right with regards to the consistency of the education and I can personally attest to the inconsistency within my own class and our experiences.
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Haha you too! Yes, I am not on here often but I try to stop by once in a while. I remember how valuable this place was to me as I was working to get into school so I try to pay it forward sometimes. If my comments are helpful to anyone, then that's a good thing. If not, well, it's just another day!
