Does this sound like a good site to get forensic experience?

[justcallmepsych4life]

private practice which focuses on evaluation of children and their families, specializing in forensic cases. Though referrals are occasionally from clinical resources, the preponderance of the children/families seen at SPS are referred by DCS, probation, various courts, GAL/CASA programs, or attorneys.

Assessment:
Child and Adolescent Comprehensive Neuropsych or Psych Evals:
Parent interview, play interview, WPPSI-III or WISC-V, NEPSY-II, ADOS-2, Various rater forms (ABAS, GARS, CARS,TSCYC), CDI-2, TSCC, RCMAS-2, STAXI-C/A 2, Rorschach (Exner Comprehensive System), CPT-3, M-PACI or MACI, MMPI-A, ERASOR/J-SOAP

Adult Evaluations:
Full Clinical Interview and MSE, WAIS-IV, WRAT-4, MMPI-2, CPT-3, SIMS, CTMT, CAPI, PSI-4, 16-PF

Additionally, completes the following types of family evaluations:
Attachment or Bonding Assessment, Hearsay Exception Evaluation with children < age 14, Custody Evaluations, parents and Adoption Assessments, Factitious by proxy Evaluations

Given the forensic work completed, we strive to ensure any student in our facility is taken to court and included in various legal meetings, depositions, and other opportunities as they are available. We feel this type of training (or at least exposure) is necessary for psychologist and are excited that we can offer this at our practice.

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[justcallmepsych4life]

Also, would this alone be a good fit for prison sites?

 

[PsyDr]

Things I wouldn't touch: Custody evaluations, Munchhausen by proxy, child testimony, whatever the hell bonding evaluations are, and the Rorschach in any forensic context ever.

 

[justcallmepsych4life]

Things I wouldn't touch: Custody evaluations, Munchhausen by proxy, child testimony, whatever the hell bonding evaluations are, and the Rorschach in any forensic context ever.

Why not? Is this site not supposed to be doing these things?

 

[erg923]

Why not? Is this site not supposed to be doing these things?

I think he was talking about his personal preference/opinion that all those things sound awful (due to high liability) and in no way enjoyable. I would happen to also share that opinion.

And the Rorschach in cases in which the fate of someone parental rights or freedom hinge? Pa-leeeeease. No.

And I though that RPAS thing was all the rage with the schahers these days?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Exposure to most of these areas is fine, but the devil is in the details. I'm always skeptical of how the learning is structured and how much supervision and mentorship are provided. Free labor is always a concern. Also, "comprehensive eval" and tossing in Neuro seems like a reach.

Other random thoughts...child custody is the deep end of the pool. Observing is fine, but I'd question how much a student should be involved in the eval. As an intern or follow, it makes more sense....but still requires a lot of oversight.

No idea about bonding assessment...? Foster care related? Dropping in Factitious by proxy....that seems extremely rare? It seems to promise a lot...lastly, the Rorschach in the setting....bad idea.

 

[PsyDr]

Why not? Is this site not supposed to be doing these things?

Its not that someone shouldn't be doing those things. It's that those areas are practice are the highest risk possible. In 100% of child custody cases, 50% of the parties (who are already in the habit of suing) are unhappy. That a psychologist would want to put a practica student in this position is somewhat concerning.

For child testimony, there is a VAST amount of literature, and you'd have to know it inside and out to testify. Think you're not going to get called? Why wouldn't opposing counsel try to get the weakest link on the stand to destroy an opinion that hurts their cause. Same for Munchhausen's.

Part of a practica is getting used to real world test administration. This is the deepest end. Neuro is hard enough. Peds neuro is exrtra hard. Peds neuro forensics is super hard . Being expected to learn test admin, test interpretation INCLUDING PEDIATRIC NEURO, while learning how to testify for a student is like putting me as the QB for an NFL team. I would lose, have some injuries, and have a lot of people mad at me. And you'd probably quesiotn the coach for making such a stupid decision.

 

[erg923]

Being expected to learn test admin, test interpretation INCLUDING PEDIATRIC NEURO, while learning how to testify for a student is like putting me as the QB for an NFL team. I would lose, have some injuries, and have a lot of people mad at me. And you'd probably quesiotn the coach for making such a stupid decision.

Gronk could do it!

 

[justcallmepsych4life]

There is a lot of supervision involved in this practicum, and I know she said I will observe her first before going on my own. But it does sound like I will be given a lot of responsibility after a few weeks. Regardless of what has been commented on, do I still have a shot at applying to prison sites with such experience?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

There is a lot of supervision involved in this practicum, and I know she said I will observe her first before going on my own. But it does sound like I will be given a lot of responsibility after a few weeks. Regardless of what has been commented on, do I still have a shot at applying to prison sites with such experience?

That is a red flag, especially if you are still a student or an intern. Forensic work is rife with pitfalls.

I admittedly am very conservative when it comes to forensic work, but that is because I trained under neuro mentors who showed me countless bad reports and I watched hacks get evicerated on cross bc they didn't know what they didn't know.

Hopefully some forensic focused ppl can post, as I only know forensic work as it relates to neuro work.

 

[erg923]

There is a lot of supervision involved in this practicum, and I know she said I will observe her first before going on my own. But it does sound like I will be given a lot of responsibility after a few weeks. Regardless of what has been commented on, do I still have a shot at applying to prison sites with such experience?

What do you want to do in the correctional setting? If it's work with prisoners clinically, this would have little value toward that end/building that competency. Solid assessment experience is always valuable though, no matter what you want to go.

I don't really think a practicum student (even a 4th or 5th year) should really have much "responsibility" in many types of the evaluations you are talking about in the OP. I really dont think the parents in a custody dispute would either. Learning about the tests, doing the test admin under careful supervision with shadowing the rest of these minefields filled evaluations would seem much more appropriate at the student level. I think an intern or post-doc could certainly fill a more substantive role here.

 

[justcallmepsych4life]

What do you want to do in the correctional setting? If it's work with prisoners clinically, this would have little value toward that end/building that competency. Solid assessment experience is always valuable though, no matter what you want to go.

I don't really think a practicum student (even a 4th or 5th year) should really have much "responsibility" in many types of the evaluations you are talking about in the OP. I really dont think the parents in a custody dispute would either. Learning about the tests, doing the test admin under careful supervision with shadowing the rest of these minefields filled evaluations would seem much more appropriate at the student level. I think an intern or post-doc could certainly fill a more substantive role here.

I was told I'll start by observing and then soon conducting the testing and clinical interview, as well as report writing (with feedback on each one).

 

[erg923]

I was told I'll start by observing and then soon conducting the testing and clinical interview, as well as report writing (with feedback on each one).

This is largely a degree of how much risk the licensed provider wants to take on (legally/ethically and in terms of how many questions and headaches they want to field down the road from attorney's, judges, and the assessed parties). You as student are, relatively, safe here.

I would not have students doing the preponderance of work in ANY legally involved case.

 

[justcallmepsych4life]

What do you want to do in the correctional setting? If it's work with prisoners clinically, this would have little value toward that end/building that competency. Solid assessment experience is always valuable though, no matter what you want to go.

I don't really think a practicum student (even a 4th or 5th year) should really have much "responsibility" in many types of the evaluations you are talking about in the OP. I really dont think the parents in a custody dispute would either. Learning about the tests, doing the test admin under careful supervision with shadowing the rest of these minefields filled evaluations would seem much more appropriate at the student level. I think an intern or post-doc could certainly fill a more substantive role here.

Ideally, I would like half clinical work and half assessment and/or research at a prison. Do you think I should apply to just assessment focused then?

 

[justcallmepsych4life]

.

 

[PsyDr]

I'm not trying to frighten you, but you should be reasonably concerned.

1) it's unlikely that you would be personally sued.

2) I would HIGHLY recommend looking up your state's license boards history of reprimands. Some states will say who got in trouble for what. Some have stats on it. In general you'll see that the #1 thing people get in trouble for is not getting CEs and the #2 thing is child custody stuff. I am a big fan of learning what boards have trouble with.

3) I've covered a few correctional settings, on a part time basis. Forensic training is not important for general psychotherapy and suicide risk assessment in a correctional setting. Other correctional areas of practice necessitated forensic training.

4) when I did my forensic post doc, I was given progressive training. First I was sent to sit in the court room. That's it. Observe and get comfortable in that setting. Then I scored stuff, etc. On top of a buttload of reading. You can sorta see where I am going.

5) The reason I am concerned is that it seems that the supervisor is not really looking out for students. To me that might indicate that they are a cowboy who's doing things without regard. Not great training. Because you're not familiar with test admin, interpretation, report writing, deposition, testifying, case law, legal terms, etc, there is no way for you to do a good job in that setting. You could pick up bad habits there. That's not an insult. Regardless of how smart you are, you don't know what the setting requires. While you won't get sued, you can have some negative things going on because of this. If an attorney doesn't like a report, they would have the right to depo you or call you to testify. Legal cases last years. For example, a case I did 5 years ago is going back to appeal which has me on the phone and possibly flying to another time zone. This could be a huge pain in your ass. Move away, and be called to come back to that place. Calls to your dot. Etc. The highest lawsuit awards against a psychologist that I know of was a custody case and a case about child testimony.

 

[justcallmepsych4life]

I'm not trying to frighten you, but you should be reasonably concerned.

1) it's unlikely that you would be personally sued.

2) I would HIGHLY recommend looking up your state's license boards history of reprimands. Some states will say who got in trouble for what. Some have stats on it. In general you'll see that the #1 thing people get in trouble for is not getting CEs and the #2 thing is child custody stuff. I am a big fan of learning what boards have trouble with.

3) I've covered a few correctional settings, on a part time basis. Forensic training is not important for general psychotherapy and suicide risk assessment in a correctional setting. Other correctional areas of practice necessitated forensic training.

4) when I did my forensic post doc, I was given progressive training. First I was sent to sit in the court room. That's it. Observe and get comfortable in that setting. Then I scored stuff, etc. On top of a buttload of reading. You can sorta see where I am going.

5) The reason I am concerned is that it seems that the supervisor is not really looking out for students. To me that might indicate that they are a cowboy who's doing things without regard. Not great training. Because you're not familiar with test admin, interpretation, report writing, deposition, testifying, case law, legal terms, etc, there is no way for you to do a good job in that setting. You could pick up bad habits there. That's not an insult. Regardless of how smart you are, you don't know what the setting requires. While you won't get sued, you can have some negative things going on because of this. If an attorney doesn't like a report, they would have the right to depo you or call you to testify. Legal cases last years. For example, a case I did 5 years ago is going back to appeal which has me on the phone and possibly flying to another time zone. This could be a huge pain in your ass. Move away, and be called to come back to that place. Calls to your dot. Etc. The highest lawsuit awards against a psychologist that I know of was a custody case and a case about child testimony.

I cannot afford or take time off of school to fly somewhere. I assumed this would be the supervisor's responsibility, since all I'm doing is observing court, testing, scoring, and writing reports (with the supervisor reading over them). How could I be liable for anything?

 

[WisNeuro]

If you could have influenced the result in any way (testing) or produced any of the product (report), you can be called to be deposed.

 

[erg923]

I cannot afford or take time off of school to fly somewhere. I assumed this would be the supervisor's responsibility, since all I'm doing is observing court, testing, scoring, and writing reports (with the supervisor reading over them). How could I be liable for anything?

Forensic work comes with risk. And with extra responsibilities/demands.

Again, most of this will fall on to the supervisor, but if you're not willing to recognize the different nature of forensic clinical work (even as a trainee/student), you should not be doing it.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It's on the license holder, but participating in any of the process opens up the student to be deposed; this is not super common but it does happen. This type of work is typically ONLY done by the licensed person bc of the increased liability associated with the work.

Edit...basically what erg wrote.

 

[justcallmepsych4life]

Um, it doesn't mean I can't be in forensics if I can't afford to fly around the country during a semester. Idk any grad student who could afford to do that. He even said most students don't come to court because they don't want to skip class.

 

[Justanothergrad]

I'm not sure why the take away message you are picking up from what they are saying is that you need to do forensic consulting and fly around the country while in grad school. That's not the message there that I'm seeing at all. I agree with their points about the red flags with respects to training competence in an area that includes higher risk for malpractice ethics complaints / lawsuits

 

[justcallmepsych4life]

I'm not sure why the take away message you are picking up from what they are saying is that you need to do forensic consulting and fly around the country while in grad school. That's not the message there that I'm seeing at all. I agree with their points about the red flags with respects to training competence in an area that includes higher risk for malpractice ethics complaints / lawsuits

My quote about flying was replied to saying that I need to take that responsibility on... So I was replying to that. I do realize there is higher risk with family law, but that's why I'm a supervised student.

 

[justcallmepsych4life]

Maybe this is bad to say but I just care about how this looks to internships... all the faculty at my school said this training will set me apart. Is this true?

 

[erg923]

That practicum would suck if you don't really want to do it.

Set you apart from what? Or whom? Individuals pursuing internships at forensic sites will almost invariably have forensic clinical experience in grad school.

 

[PhDToBe]

Is there a state hospital or state/federal prison placement where you could obtain forensic assessment (or even just assessment) experiences and/or therapy with that type of population? I think most forensic internship sites (particularly prison sites) would be interested in applicants with experiences in those settings as opposed to the private practice setting.

 

[psych.meout]

Um, it doesn't mean I can't be in forensics if I can't afford to fly around the country during a semester. Idk any grad student who could afford to do that. He even said most students don't come to court because they don't want to skip class.

That's not what the psychologists here are saying.

Firstly, they're saying that you should be concerned about the cavalier tenor of this clinical experience. The work they are doing at this site is very complex and comes with very high risk. It would be hazardous enough for a seasoned psychologist, but it is likely too complex and risky to have students do it. To have you doing this fairly independently with just some basic supervision after a few weeks of observation is even more fraught with hazards. Have you done any neuropsych assessments like this on adult or pediatric populations? Is this your first external practicum?

Secondly, there are some especially difficult, risky, and even suspect things they are doing and/or will have you do that many veteran psychologists would not do at all, especially using the Rorschach or assessing for Munchausen's by proxy. The less your work is grounded in the best evidence-based practices (e.g. assessments using the Rorschach or TAT), the more likely there will be problems for you in the present and the future.

Thirdly, the stuff about "flying around the country" was not in reference to anything you'd be doing in the short-term, e.g. during the semester while you are still in graduate school. It was to provide context about how these kinds of forensic cases can haunt you for years and years after you last had contact with anyone involved in the case. This is partly due to the slow wheels of justice in the legal system, e.g. appeals taking years after an initial verdict or judgment. You could be off practicing for years after you finish your program and get licensed and then get deposed as part of an appeal for the original case, a new lawsuit (e.g. an attorney or licensed provider getting sued for malpractice), a criminal case (e.g. you helped assess the defendant as a child and they committed a felony years later and are going for a diminished capacity defense), etc. It may be more likely that the licensed psychologist or psychiatrist under whom you are training will get deposed for these matters, but it is still possible for you to get called if you influenced the outcome of the evaluation in some manner (e.g. neuropsych testing) or produced the part of the final product (e.g. wrote a neuropsych testing report that was included in the final evaluation).

Maybe this is bad to say but I just care about how this looks to internships... all the faculty at my school said this training will set me apart. Is this true?

The internship interviewers will likely have some questions for you about this practicum that are similar to those voiced here, especially how much supervision and training you received to do this kind of work so independently. Those who are more risk averse and conservative will probably be similarly skeptical as well.

That practicum would suck if you don't really want to do it.

Set you apart from what? Or whom? Individuals pursuing internships at forensic sites will almost invariably have forensic clinical experience in grad school.

You know what will really set you apart and get you noticed for internships, fellowships, and licensing? Being part of a malpractice case, because your on-site mentor is doing things in careless and/or inappropriate manners.

 

[Justanothergrad]

My quote about flying was replied to saying that I need to take that responsibility on... So I was replying to that. I do realize there is higher risk with family law, but that's why I'm a supervised student.

You need to re-read what he said. You missed 100% of what he offered, which was very good advice. It had 0% to do with being willing to fly around the country for funsies.

 

[psych.meout]

You need to re-read what he said. You missed 100% of what he offered, which was very good advice. It had 0% to do with being willing to fly around the country for funsies.

OP seems to just want confirmation about how awesome this practicum will look to internship committees, not whether things are being done the right way, will open anyone up to liability, is using the best evidence-based practices, etc.

This seems like a fast track to learning bad habits and having assessments focused on what is the most lucrative method, not what is best and most valid and reliable for the patient and/or client.

 

[erg923]

OP seems to just want confirmation about how awesome this practicum will look to internship committees, not whether things are being done the right way, will open anyone up to liability, is using the best evidence-based practices, etc.

This seems like a fast track to learning bad habits and having assessments focused on what is the most lucrative method, not what is best and most valid and reliable for the patient and/or client.

To be fair, the people you're evaluating in these types of evaluations are not your patient/client.

The OP sounds surprisingly disinterested in the specific content area though, and quite forensically naive to jump into to such deep waters.

This is definitely more intern and post-doc appropriate. Not a good idea for a practicum, I don't think. If the psychologist running this practice wants to train this way, there is nothing flagrantly unethical here, just not particularly advisable from a training and legal/risk standpoint. It's also not necessarily the best experience if one's goal is traditional correctional psychology/correctional clinical work either. It would be good experience if this is the specific area one wants for their career, even if I don't think its the best developmental approach to training for a seemingly early graduate student.

 

[psych.meout]

To be fair, the people you're evaluating in these types of evaluations are not your patient/client.

Right, that's why I differentiated between patients (e.g. if OP wanted to do therapy with inmates at a forensic hospital, prison, etc) and clients (e.g. the state, local, and federal government entities, insurance companies, lawyers, etc.), though I probably should have used better terms.. In the former, the person you're assessing and/or to whom you're providing therapy is the entity to whom you have a duty, but in the latter, the duty is due to the person who contracted you, not the person being assessed.

The OP sounds surprisingly disinterested in the specific content area though, and quite forensically naive to jump into to such deep waters. This is definitely more intern and post-doc appropriate. Not a good idea for a practicum, I don't think. If the psychologist running this practice wants to train this way, there is nothing flagrantly unethical here, just not particularly advisable.

I'm not saying there is any malpractice or anything unethical going on (I don't even know to whom exactly OP was referring), just that if anyone was going to be involved in malpractice or unethical behavior, it's more than likely going to be someone already playing fast and loose, rather than someone who is generally more conservative and cautious.

 

[ItsNotMe_ItsYou]

Maybe this is bad to say but I just care about how this looks to internships... all the faculty at my school said this training will set me apart. Is this true?

I respect your honesty, at least you're self-aware and willing to admit it. The training description provided above sounds really interesting, and really intense. While you're considering the potential benefits to your career, have you considered how your intentions might be viewed or interpreted by your patients, colleagues, mentors, etc.? Is your ultimate goal to intern and/or work in a prison?

 

[affectiveH3art]

OP, they may have told you this internship will set you apart but you're the one that will have to do the work or take on the responsibility. Personally, I would only do a practicum if I truly wanted the experience. I've been told this at one point due to a prac site (Burn unit) but I did it because I absolutely wanted the experience. I ended up loving it in the end and relocated states every summer for the experience.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[psychedonpsych]

Which site is this? Where?

private practice which focuses on evaluation of children and their families, specializing in forensic cases. Though referrals are occasionally from clinical resources, the preponderance of the children/families seen at SPS are referred by DCS, probation, various courts, GAL/CASA programs, or attorneys.

Assessment:
Child and Adolescent Comprehensive Neuropsych or Psych Evals:
Parent interview, play interview, WPPSI-III or WISC-V, NEPSY-II, ADOS-2, Various rater forms (ABAS, GARS, CARS,TSCYC), CDI-2, TSCC, RCMAS-2, STAXI-C/A 2, Rorschach (Exner Comprehensive System), CPT-3, M-PACI or MACI, MMPI-A, ERASOR/J-SOAP

Adult Evaluations:
Full Clinical Interview and MSE, WAIS-IV, WRAT-4, MMPI-2, CPT-3, SIMS, CTMT, CAPI, PSI-4, 16-PF

Additionally, completes the following types of family evaluations:
Attachment or Bonding Assessment, Hearsay Exception Evaluation with children < age 14, Custody Evaluations, parents and Adoption Assessments, Factitious by proxy Evaluations

Given the forensic work completed, we strive to ensure any student in our facility is taken to court and included in various legal meetings, depositions, and other opportunities as they are available. We feel this type of training (or at least exposure) is necessary for psychologist and are excited that we can offer this at our practice.

 

[psychedonpsych]

Where did you do your forensic postdoc?

I'm not trying to frighten you, but you should be reasonably concerned.

1) it's unlikely that you would be personally sued.

2) I would HIGHLY recommend looking up your state's license boards history of reprimands. Some states will say who got in trouble for what. Some have stats on it. In general you'll see that the #1 thing people get in trouble for is not getting CEs and the #2 thing is child custody stuff. I am a big fan of learning what boards have trouble with.

3) I've covered a few correctional settings, on a part time basis. Forensic training is not important for general psychotherapy and suicide risk assessment in a correctional setting. Other correctional areas of practice necessitated forensic training.

4) when I did my forensic post doc, I was given progressive training. First I was sent to sit in the court room. That's it. Observe and get comfortable in that setting. Then I scored stuff, etc. On top of a buttload of reading. You can sorta see where I am going.

5) The reason I am concerned is that it seems that the supervisor is not really looking out for students. To me that might indicate that they are a cowboy who's doing things without regard. Not great training. Because you're not familiar with test admin, interpretation, report writing, deposition, testifying, case law, legal terms, etc, there is no way for you to do a good job in that setting. You could pick up bad habits there. That's not an insult. Regardless of how smart you are, you don't know what the setting requires. While you won't get sued, you can have some negative things going on because of this. If an attorney doesn't like a report, they would have the right to depo you or call you to testify. Legal cases last years. For example, a case I did 5 years ago is going back to appeal which has me on the phone and possibly flying to another time zone. This could be a huge pain in your ass. Move away, and be called to come back to that place. Calls to your dot. Etc. The highest lawsuit awards against a psychologist that I know of was a custody case and a case about child testimony.