Does your medical school have sickening liberal indoctrination?

[DoctwoB]

Anyone who says there isn't liberal indoctrination in higher education has their head in the sand. Whether it is the pervasive emphasis on diversity for the sake of diversity, helping only the underserved, pushing universal health care, poo-pooing industrialism or corporations or completely crapping on the idea of concierge practice- it is there.

Some of these things are good some are of dubious merit but no one can deny the socialist underpinnings to all of these ideas. Each of these things has their foundation in the words, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

The bullying comes not only from faculty but also from the students. Anyone who disagrees with these socialist underpinnings gets sneers, insults and mumblings about being heartless (please see the above posts for proof). Perhaps if the ivory tower academics were more worried about pragmatics than pushing ideals we wouldn't have a massive primary care shortage.

I would agree that academic physicians and medical school professors probably tend to be more liberal then your average private practice physician, but to talk about the whole "leftist, socialist liberal agenda" just makes you sound like another idiot talking head.

A professor should present both sides of an issue, but is not required to give them equal time or belief when one side is wrong. Is it "socialist" to teach evolution is the correct theory and creationism and most popular notions of intelligent design are scientifically flawed? Of course not. Sometimes, when two people disagree, the answer isn't in the middle, its all the way on one side.

That being said, issues like universal healthcare clearly do fall into that middle area in which there are benefits and arguments to be made for both sides, and a professor should present both sides as best as possible. When dealing with issues like this, I've always found that the best classes don't try to make an inherently biased professor teach a "balanced" course, but instead bring in a passionate believer/guest lecturer to present the argument for each side.

Oh and I agree that a few less "empathy lectures" wouldn't be so bad.

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[Slack3r]

If medical schools were really liberal then they wouldn't let the homophobic misogynist ******s in the christian medical and dental association have meetings on school property. These are the same *****s who vote republican and want poor black babies to starve to death because apparently that's what jesus would want.

Lol, speaking of open-minded...

 

[jdh71]

Anyone who says there isn't liberal indoctrination in higher education has their head in the sand. Whether it is the pervasive emphasis on diversity for the sake of diversity, helping only the underserved, pushing universal health care, poo-pooing industrialism or corporations or completely crapping on the idea of concierge practice- it is there.

Some of these things are good some are of dubious merit but no one can deny the socialist underpinnings to all of these ideas. Each of these things has their foundation in the words, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

The bullying comes not only from faculty but also from the students. Anyone who disagrees with these socialist underpinnings gets sneers, insults and mumblings about being heartless (please see the above posts for proof). Perhaps if the ivory tower academics were more worried about pragmatics than pushing ideals we wouldn't have a massive primary care shortage.

You've been posting quality lately, son. Quality I say!

It's not simply a matter of being exposed to "new opinions". What they try to "bring down to us from on high" is not an opinion, but rather the way the message is carried is that the message is the correct one. This isn't an opinion, but rather a statement of post-modern values and correctness (ironically, these people will also often tell you with a straight face that "right" and "wrong" is subjective).

Meh. They try and throw some sheet and hope that it sticks on a few. Most of us see through the nonsense. It's the plight of being intelligent and thinking.

 

[JimmyChitwood]

Whether it is the pervasive emphasis on diversity for the sake of diversity.

The fact that so many people/instutions seek to implement this just blows my mind. It makes zero sense to me. My undergrad about 10 years ago was "disproportionately" white (that's what happens when it costs 40k a year) and decided to institute a university-wide policy on increasing diversity. Why? I come from a diverse background and have nothing against a melting pot, but "just because" is not the answer to anything.

 

[Rollo]

Anyone who says there isn't liberal indoctrination in higher education has their head in the sand. Whether it is the pervasive emphasis on diversity for the sake of diversity, helping only the underserved, pushing universal health care, poo-pooing industrialism or corporations or completely crapping on the idea of concierge practice- it is there.

Some of these things are good some are of dubious merit but no one can deny the socialist underpinnings to all of these ideas. Each of these things has their foundation in the words, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

The bullying comes not only from faculty but also from the students. Anyone who disagrees with these socialist underpinnings gets sneers, insults and mumblings about being heartless (please see the above posts for proof). Perhaps if the ivory tower academics were more worried about pragmatics than pushing ideals we wouldn't have a massive primary care shortage.

You pretty much defined young liberals in the bolded portion.

I say the most judgmental group of people are liberals, especially in academics because any opinions expressed contrary to the socialist policy is automatically labeled "backwards", racist, whiners, classless, haters, prejudicial, uneducated, etc...

 

[IDBasco]

You pretty much defined young liberals in the bolded portion.

I say the most judgmental group of people are liberals, especially in academics because any opinions expressed contrary to the socialist policy is automatically labeled "backwards", racist, whiners, classless, haters, prejudicial, uneducated, etc...

So true.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Eh, I don't know down here in Arkansas, the CMA folks can get awfully judgy. Then again, there's not much other than red, red, and more red in Little Rock, so I don't have much basis for comparison.

 

[SGuttenberg]

Lol, speaking of open-minded...

You pretty much defined young liberals in the bolded portion.

I say the most judgmental group of people are liberals, especially in academics because any opinions expressed contrary to the socialist policy is automatically labeled "backwards", racist, whiners, classless, haters, prejudicial, uneducated, etc...

I'm tolerant of pretty much anything except intolerance. I consider certain christian and other right wing groups intolerant if they don't support full and equal status for homosexuals and allow women complete and total control over their own bodies.

If people want to hate, I'll hate right back.

 

[Siverhideo1985]

Anyone ever feel like conservatism is, in a way, meant to fail in the long run? Like in a casino: conservatives are the people that sit at the slot machines, playing against the "liberal" house with the odds always stacked against them (as long as enough time passes)?

 

[sylvanthus]

I'm tolerant of pretty much anything except intolerance. I consider certain christian and other right wing groups intolerant if they don't support full and equal status for homosexuals and allow women complete and total control over their own bodies.

If people want to hate, I'll hate right back.

I hope some small portion of your brain realizes what you just posted.

 

[jdh71]

I'm tolerant of pretty much anything except intolerance. I consider certain christian and other right wing groups intolerant if they don't support full and equal status for homosexuals and allow women complete and total control over their own bodies.

If people want to hate, I'll hate right back.

Do you "tolerate" baby-****ers? You accept they baby-****ing lifestyle correct?

 

[SGuttenberg]

Eh, I don't know down here in Arkansas, the CMA folks can get awfully judgy. Then again, there's not much other than red, red, and more red in Little Rock, so I don't have much basis for comparison.

I too am in the south and the I've had some heated arguments with CMA thugs about gay marriage etc. They are just hate filled, judgmental people hiding beneath a mask of friendliness. That's evangelical christianity in a nutshell. You can hide behind your community service all you want, but when you only do something so you get into heaven it kinda detracts from your supposed altruism. Nevermind the manipulative proselytizing that goes on with their medical missions and work with homeless.

Do you "tolerate" baby-****ers? You accept they baby-****ing lifestyle correct?

Did you just equate homosexuality with pedophillia? Seriously?

I said I tolerate PRETTY MUCH anything, nobody thinks child molesting is OK. Well, I'm sure some people probably do, but I and most sane people don't.

 

[sylvanthus]

Sooooo you basically tolerate pretty much anything, except for those who have differing views from yours, yet you do not like judgemental people? Yaa, that makes a whole lot of fukin sense.

 

[jdh71]

Sooooo you basically tolerate pretty much anything, except for those who have differing views from yours, yet you do not like judgemental people? Yaa, that makes a whole lot of fukin sense.

He's simply making rationalization for his own bigotry, ironically projected onto everyone else he disagrees with. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad and tragic.

 

[jdh71]

Did you just equate homosexuality with pedophillia? Seriously?

I said I tolerate PRETTY MUCH anything, nobody thinks child molesting is OK. Well, I'm sure some people probably do, but I and most sane people don't.

Where did I equate homosexuality with pedophillia? I think your knees jerked.

I'm merely trying to establish if you are intolerant of certain things and as it turns out you are.

This brings up an interesting question since you've made the claim that "nobody" thinks child molesting is OK (somebody must or children wouldn't get molested, but that is beside the point), I agree with you that molesting children is wrong, but WHY is it wrong? Why does "nobody" think it's ok? Why do "sane" people have a problem with it?

 

[Siverhideo1985]

He's simply making rationalization for his own bigotry, ironically projected onto everyone else he disagrees with. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad and tragic.

Permit a side-question? What fellowship are you in that lets you roam SDN's medical student forums for 3 hours on a Monday night? Cause...I want in!!

 

[jdh71]

Permit a side-question? What fellowship are you in that lets you roam SDN's medical student forums for 3 hours on a Monday night? Cause...I want in!!

I'm a pulmonary/critical care fellow. It was a long weekend - I didn't even go home last night. Lots of sick people, some died, others will soon, some we may save. One SUPER interesting case of stage 4 unclassifiable B cell lymphoma with the worst histoplasmosis infection I think I've ever seen or read about.

You make time to have fun too, and as odd as it may sound to many people, I have fun on SDN.

 

[Siverhideo1985]

I'm a pulmonary/critical care fellow. It was a long weekend - I didn't even go home last night. Lots of sick people, some died, others will soon, some we may save. One SUPER interesting case of stage 4 unclassifiable B cell lymphoma with the worst histoplasmosis infection I think I've ever seen or read about.

You make time to have fun too, and as odd as it may sound to many people, I have fun on SDN.

Sweet, thanks. Sorry for disrupting the flow of things.

 

[SGuttenberg]

Where did I equate homosexuality with pedophillia? I think your knees jerked.

I'm merely trying to establish if you are intolerant of certain things and as it turns out you are.

This brings up an interesting question since you've made the claim that "nobody" thinks child molesting is OK (somebody must or children wouldn't get molested, but that is beside the point), I agree with you that molesting children is wrong, but WHY is it wrong? Why does "nobody" think it's ok? Why do "sane" people have a problem with it?

For the record, I think CMA should be legal, just not officially recognized or given the right to use school property unless the school would be equally willing to support the KKKMA whoes policy position is no medical care should be provided to blacks or jews. Lets tolerate everything equally, that's the way you want it right?

 

[jdh71]

For the record, I think CMA should be legal, just not officially recognized or given the right to use school property unless the school would be equally willing to support the KKKMA whoes policy position is no medical care should be provided to blacks or jews. Lets tolerate everything equally, that's the way you want it right?

That's not a position I've taken.

(and I'm sure everyone in the CMA breaths a sigh of relief that you are "ok" with them being legal)

 

[Rollo]

For the record, I think CMA should be legal, just not officially recognized or given the right to use school property unless the school would be equally willing to support the KKKMA whoes policy position is no medical care should be provided to blacks or jews. Lets tolerate everything equally, that's the way you want it right?

You do realize that you're only proving my point I made earlier about liberals labeling anything that disagrees with its policies as homophobic, racist, ******ed, illegal, etc...?

You argue like a typical bleeding heart liberal....all passion and no logic. Kinda like Obama's speeches.

 

[plauto]

I think that the whole "work for free" thing kinda goes like this in med school:

-1st year: no debt/I will save the whole world for free and those who don't are evil
-2nd year: $65K debt/I will still save the world, but there are some exceptions
-3rd year: $150K debt/I think something is wrong, but don't have time to figure it out
-4th year: $200-300K debt/get your checkbook out as you walk into the clinic

Obviously this is an exaggeration, but it is sort of interesting to see how people start thinking differently. This is not necessarily dictated by debt and money, but also from getting to know the patient population and the toll it takes on your life and your family.

 

[goldenwest]

I too am in the south and the I've had some heated arguments with CMA thugs about gay marriage etc. They are just hate filled, judgmental people hiding beneath a mask of friendliness. That's evangelical christianity in a nutshell. You can hide behind your community service all you want, but when you only do something so you get into heaven it kinda detracts from your supposed altruism. Nevermind the manipulative proselytizing that goes on with their medical missions and work with homeless.

Nothing good ever came from emotionally charged blanket statements. Just because you ran into some allegedly hate-filled, judgmental people doesn't mean that everyone in the CMA agrees with their view points. I don't hate you, or homosexuals, or anyone... including pedophiles. I disagree with some of the things they do, but I will be just as quick to admit my own faults. Just because you found a wolf in sheep's clothing doesn't mean that sheep don't exist.

 

[DoctwoB]

Do you "tolerate" baby-****ers? You accept they baby-****ing lifestyle correct?

While this is a fair argument against "being tolerant of everyone," I find this to be a straw man. I'm not saying you believe in this, this is the same argument used to justify discrimination against LGBTs (remember the whole "if we allow gay marriage, then next people will marry dogs debacle?") and others.

Tolerance, like everything else, can be subject to some restrictions, such as requiring that the activity/lifestyle being tolerated is not directly harmful to others who are non consenting or not able to consent. I tolerate and respect other races, LGBTs, religions, etc. I don't tolerate people that murder others without justification. That doesn't make showing tolerance and respect to others wrong. Faulting respect and tolerance for possessing a few, basic restrictions is more then saying that because there are a few regulations, capitalism doesn't work.

 

[Elbowstoopointy]

I think they all do.

Yes- also those classes you are referring to take up a lot of Step 1 study time

 

[Elbowstoopointy]

I think that the whole "work for free" thing kinda goes like this in med school:

-1st year: no debt/I will save the whole world for free and those who don't are evil
-2nd year: $65K debt/I will still save the world, but there are some exceptions
-3rd year: $150K debt/I think something is wrong, but don't have time to figure it out
-4th year: $200-300K debt/get your checkbook out as you walk into the clinic

Obviously this is an exaggeration, but it is sort of interesting to see how people start thinking differently. This is not necessarily dictated by debt and money, but also from getting to know the patient population and the toll it takes on your life and your family.

There is a breaking point in everyones lives where you just get sick of being **** on all day and have to look out for yourself just a little bit...nothing wrong with that.

I HATE when people say "Oh man that guy is selling out by going into rads/anes/derm"...thats complete BS. They have every right to do so and it does not make them a good/bad person for it. Also- I love how kids in med school who did a medical mission think they are automatically better than everyone....

 

[jdh71]

While this is a fair argument against "being tolerant of everyone," I find this to be a straw man. I'm not saying you believe in this, this is the same argument used to justify discrimination against LGBTs (remember the whole "if we allow gay marriage, then next people will marry dogs debacle?") and others.

Tolerance, like everything else, can be subject to some restrictions, such as requiring that the activity/lifestyle being tolerated is not directly harmful to others who are non consenting or not able to consent. I tolerate and respect other races, LGBTs, religions, etc. I don't tolerate people that murder others without justification. That doesn't make showing tolerance and respect to others wrong. Faulting respect and tolerance for possessing a few, basic restrictions is more then saying that because there are a few regulations, capitalism doesn't work.

Which strawman was I arguing against?

My point was more about "lines in the sand", where and why we draw lines in the sand, especially moral ones. In no way anywhere in any discussion have I made an equivalence about homosexuality and pedophillia. It's important to understand what is said, what is not said, and not assume in these discussions.

 

[DreamingTheLive]

I too am in the south and the I've had some heated arguments with CMA thugs about gay marriage etc. They are just hate filled, judgmental people hiding beneath a mask of friendliness. That's evangelical christianity in a nutshell. You can hide behind your community service all you want, but when you only do something so you get into heaven it kinda detracts from your supposed altruism. Nevermind the manipulative proselytizing that goes on with their medical missions and work with homeless.

All bets are off south of the Mason-Dixon line. You'd get run out of town for showering/bathing.

 

[roubs]

Which strawman was I arguing against?
...
Do you "tolerate" baby-****ers? You accept they baby-****ing lifestyle correct?

How else would you read this besides saying that being "open/tolerant" to things means being open/tolerant to illegal behavior?

 

[roubs]

Oh and this whole thread is funny if you're in an academic Ph.D. because we are the true marxist lennist utopia.

 

[jdh71]

How else would you read this besides saying that being "open/tolerant" to things means being open/tolerant to illegal behavior?

I'm afraid I don't understand your question completely. But if I'm correct in what I think you're asking then . . .

I asked a question. I didn't make a statement. That's how you should read it. Ask yourself is that a question or is it a statement? The question was obviously not rhetorical, and was asked to clarify the position of the person I addressed it to. Any other connections made or assumed on your part are your problem not mine.

 

[roubs]

I'm afraid I don't understand your question completely. But if I'm correct in what I think you're asking then . . .

I asked a question. I didn't make a statement. That's how you should read it. Ask yourself is that a question or is it a statement? The question was obviously not rhetorical, and was asked to clarify the position of the person I addressed it to. Any other connections made or assumed on your part are your problem not mine.

Haha.

You accept they baby-****ing lifestyle correct?

I guess if it ends in a question mark, it must be a question. You so earnestly wanted to know if he accepted the

baby-****ing lifestyle

. I get it. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[NickNaylor]

Since I'm in the midst of our six week health disparities course right now, I can definitely relate. I'll admit that most of the presenters we've had thus far try to be objective (though you can clearly see through their bias), but some are quite... biased, to say the least. Then again, I'm a conservative at the University of Chicago, which has a reputation for being a bastion of liberalism.

I really don't mind hearing from the alternate (liberal) viewpoint, but some things are pushing it. As part of this course, for example, we have to do a "group project" which requiring choosing to do work on one of about eight or nine projects. I'll provide the titles just do you can get a feel of what we're working with:

-Impact of Science Education (on middle schoolers)
-Mammography Access on Chicago's South Side
-Free Clinics in Chicago
-South Side Historians
-Sickle Cell Anemia and Other Chronic Pain Diseases
-Food Pantry
-Incarcerated People of Chicago
-Women's Health

These are all interesting topics that I would love to learn more about in the context of a lecture or series of lectures, but I think it's a bit over the top that we have to spend a somewhat significant amount of time researching and doing something related to our topic. There's a difference between educating and proselytizing, and I definitely think the line gets blurred quite often. I feel like this work is much more suited for people that have strong interests in these topics and WANT to do research or some kind of activism related to them. Neither of those is me.

 

[jdh71]

I guess if it ends in a question mark, it must be a question.

If it's not a rhetorical question sure.

You so earnestly wanted to know if he accepted the . I get it. Thanks for clarifying.

I did. Because if he did not, then he'd understand that everyone draws lines in the sand.

Anything else I can help you better understand, please feel free to pipe up.

 

[Frank Nutter]

Prof: What is wrong here:

Kid in our class raises hand, "not enough white babies are dying."

maybe there's hope yet.

 

[goldenwest]

Prof: What is wrong here:

Kid in our class raises hand, "not enough white babies are dying."

maybe there's hope yet.

I don't think you can call racism with that chart alone. Of course, sadly, racism happens, but there are other factors at play.

 

[NickNaylor]

I don't think you can call racism with that chart alone. Of course, sadly, racism happens, but there are other factors at play.

What other factors? While race is rarely a direct cause of disparities/differences in most cases, it's almost always a secondary cause. You might claim socioeconomic status, for example, is a larger determining factor until you find out that blacks are overly represented in the lowest socioeconomic classes.

 

[Slack3r]

I'm tolerant of pretty much anything except intolerance. I consider certain christian and other right wing groups intolerant if they don't support full and equal status for homosexuals and allow women complete and total control over their own bodies.

If people want to hate, I'll hate right back.

Then you're not tolerant. The end.

 

[Gut Shot]

I'll provide the titles just do you can get a feel of what we're working with:

-Impact of Science Education (on middle schoolers)
-Mammography Access on Chicago's South Side
-Free Clinics in Chicago
-South Side Historians
-Sickle Cell Anemia and Other Chronic Pain Diseases
-Food Pantry
-Incarcerated People of Chicago
-Women's Health

Hmmm, what would the projects be like in a conservative, affluent, white, male medical school?

-Mammography access near Saks Fifth Avenue on North Michican
-For profit clinics in Chicago
-Indian Hill Golf Club historians
-Erectile dysfunction and other chronic pain diseases
-Whole Foods pantry
-Incarcerated bankers of Chicago

All of this whining about "proselytizing" is unnecessary when you consider several things:

1. The job of the medical profession, as a whole, is to provide medical care to the populace.
2. Underserved groups and areas, including poor neighborhoods and prisons, are the proverbial low-hanging fruit in terms of maximizing impact with minimal investment of resources.
3. Academic medical centers are the biggest players in providing this care, because nobody else is going to step in and do it.
4. Hence, said academic medical centers will actually enable you to someday go into private practice and totally wash your hands of the unwashed masses.

In summary, STFU.

 

[boo5000]

I'd like an example of this liberal indoctrination. Are you talking about advocating for adequate care for gays and minorities?

Political topics usually stay outside of the classroom at my school. We save that for AMA meetings.

What an AMA meeting that was!

 

[goldenwest]

What other factors? While race is rarely a direct cause of disparities/differences in most cases, it's almost always a secondary cause. You might claim socioeconomic status, for example, is a larger determining factor until you find out that blacks are overly represented in the lowest socioeconomic classes.

I'm unsure of what you mean. Are you saying that the fact that black populations have a lower mean socioeconomic status is directly tied to racism? Unless of course you mean that it's the shadow casted from a previous history of racism. With that I agree, but I don't think you can say it's due to present racism.

I think a lower average level of education is directly tied to the increased rate of infant mortality. I don't believe, however, that the lower average level of education is due to present racism. Sure, it's a factor, but how can you quantify that? I obviously don't know what it's like to be black so I'm talking out of my ass, but I've witnessed black preference in my lifetime. Black athletes are preferred. URM students are preferred. I think Obama's race was undoubtedly a factor in his election. For many people it may have been more of a factor than his political ideas. Of course I'm glad that the pendulum has swung, and I'm not ready to say that it's swung too far. I certainly agree that the low socioeconomic status of blacks is in large part due to past racism. The other part would have to do with anthropology involving hereditary economic regression and the fact that races tend to marry themselves which in some cases means the poor proliferate the poor and the rich proliferate the rich.

 

[Longshanks]

I don't think diversity is a strength at all. Probably the greatest countries (economically, and DEFINITELY scientifically) from Europe and Asia are Germany and Japan. They are historically homogeneous societies with xenophobic tendencies. Even today.

This will get you labeled a racist or white supremacist (although today they are the same thing). The social consequences of this label are enormous.

Then you must not have noticed all the blacks and hispanics and women and their nonstop bitching about white male domination.

Maybe because your statements are actually racist - you seem quite concerned about those uppity minority and women students speaking their minds when you know best for them.

You really are giving the impression here that you're some sheltered privileged white boy who hasn't entered the real world, and the medical academic bubble is closest to that (sadly). Remember to bring a doggie bag with you when you actually graduate and enter society.

And sorry to burst your bubble, but you do know that Germany has a large Turkish population, correct? And that the Germans and Austrians have had many ties to Turkey for the past several centuries. "Germany" itself as a united country is a very modern conception, when for most of its history was entirely separate city-states with different languages, religion, and traditions. Not quite as homogeneous as you make it out to be.

 

[aSagacious]

And sorry to burst your bubble, but you do know that Germany has a large Turkish population, correct? And that the Germans and Austrians have had many ties to Turkey for the past several centuries. "Germany" itself as a united country is a very modern conception, when for most of its history was entirely separate city-states with different languages, religion, and traditions. Not quite as homogeneous as you make it out to be.

What was that about Germany? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

 

[Longshanks]

What was that about Germany? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

I'm not denying there is backlash or ethnic tensions, I am arguing against the notion though that Germany is all ethnic Germans and Protestants.

 

[aSagacious]

I'm not denying there is backlash or ethnic tensions, I am arguing against the notion though that Germany is all ethnic Germans and Protestants.

Oh, in that case... agreed.

 

[dyeguy21]

I agree with the general fact that both sides need to be presented by lecturers who hold strong views on both sides.

The whole idea of the indoctrination is a little rough, but to be fair we did have to sit through 7 lectures and a 2 hour test on that material about how the healthcare system in america is awful, with absolutely no counterpoints.

The problem came with the fact that it was the same teacher throughout who couldn't understand that cherry-picking facts and thinking that correlation is equivalent to causation is no the proper way to defend your view point.

Yes we're ranked low in the WHO's eyes, yes it's hard to get an appointment with a doctor that same day, and yes "billed" healthcare is high here.

...but, we have ERs when your primary isn't available since we have fewer doctors per person in the US, the WHO's selection criteria ignore's some of our more important advances and utilizes criteria that is unfair to a large and heterogeneous population, and the actual "paid" return from those billings is a much lower average that most think.

And at the same time there are under-served and generally poor community health regions that may or may not have anything to do with the medical doctors in the area.

That kind of an issue has great points on both sides and they need to be represented. For most of the students in my class this was their first exposure to such issues, and they are now unfairly jaded in debate.

 

[Crow King]

Maybe because your statements are actually racist - you seem quite concerned about those uppity minority and women students speaking their minds when you know best for them.

If it is fair to claim the white man is out there keeping women and minorities down, it is fair to claim that they bitch about it.

btw, I learned this trick from you liberals. A one-size-fits-all rebuttal.

You really are giving the impression here that you're some sheltered privileged white boy who hasn't entered the real world, and the medical academic bubble is closest to that (sadly). Remember to bring a doggie bag with you when you actually graduate and enter society.

Yes, what I said about blacks and women bitching sounds "racist." But so does what you said.

Being a racial realist is the result of a very non-sheltered upbringing. Which is why no rich white liberal EVER lives in the "multicultural" part of town.

And sorry to burst your bubble, but you do know that Germany has a large Turkish population, correct? And that the Germans and Austrians have had many ties to Turkey for the past several centuries. "Germany" itself as a united country is a very modern conception, when for most of its history was entirely separate city-states with different languages, religion, and traditions. Not quite as homogeneous as you make it out to be.

I've been to Germany. I know what it is like.

I also know everybody there hates the Turks (as wrong as that is).

The "ties" that you speak of are Germans bringing in cheap labor and forgetting to kick them out when the work was done.

 

[Crow King]

I'm not denying there is backlash or ethnic tensions, I am arguing against the notion though that Germany is all ethnic Germans and Protestants.

Umm, everyone knows Germany is about split between Catholics and Protestants.

Non-ethnic Germans will never really be accepted in German society, let alone celebrated like they are here.

 

[Mace1370]

I agree with the general fact that both sides need to be presented by lecturers who hold strong views on both sides.

There is some truth to this, but I think the main problem most people have is that when professors get up on their soap box it is totally off topic. I don't need to hear about why my professor hates capitalism in my biochem class.

 

[Kevin Baker]

I won't address the forced diversity classes we have. However, we had a small group discussion on medical ethics and were presented with a few classic medical cases and had to come to a conclusion about the ethics of the situation. One was the good ol' "morbidly obese diabetic person who refuses your advice and doesn't make any life changes" question. Is it okay to get rid of them as a patient? The second was about a poor patient who repeatedly refuses to pay for medical services rendered and whether it is okay to drop them as a patient.

I was astounded by the amount of students who think (or say) it is morally wrong for a doctor to cut either or both of these people. I'm all for debating sides, or claiming an action is grey, but to say that dropping a patient for these reasons is morally, unambiguously, wrong? WTF! I think this "liberal indoctrination" is less about the schools and their curriculum, and more about how liberal the student body is. Where is a good libertarian when you need one?

Personally, I say keep the diabetic and milk her for more easy cash. It's her fault if she refuses to follow your advice. And sue the patient who doesn't pay. Maybe repoing his or her flat screen TV or second car will get the message across that medicial care ain't free.