Does your medical school have sickening liberal indoctrination?

[Instatewaiter]

I really never found this to be true, I think this is an excuse people who suck at writing make.

Well it seems your ideas probably didn't differ too much from your professors.

Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. Also I dont know about your experiences, but I seem to remember in undergrad all departments would have professors of with differing opinions about things and often their disagreements would be pretty well known. I even remember going to see a couple debates between professors about various topics.

About their political leanings not so much.

Applying to medschool was optional, and these days medschools advertise their curriculum enough that you can know exactly what your getting into.

You have to go through med school to be a doctor were that optional, your point would be valid. It would be appropriate to have equal conservative and liberal ideas and neither of these taught or introduced into education.

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[surftheiop]

Well it seems your ideas probably didn't differ too much from your professors.



About their political leanings not so much.



You have to go through med school to be a doctor were that optional, your point would be valid. It would be appropriate to have equal conservative and liberal ideas and neither of these taught or introduced into education.

1)
My ideas and my professor's often differed significantly, I'm a "practicing" christian which I only had in common with a handful of professors. Freshman year I came in as a diehard libertarian and made A's on several papers I wrote based on libertarian philosophy despite having an admittedly liberal professor.

In an environmental engineering class I had a professor who was obsessed with the idea of cap and trade. One paper I wrote was strongly against it, but that didn't stop me from making a good grade.

In psychology/cognitive science professors always have their favorite perspective and its pretty rare to ever have one that you don't disagree with on points.

2) Not sure why you think professors don't foster political discourse,

I remember going to a health care policy debate that had professors representing the business school, law school, econ, gov, medschool and a couple more. There were supporters there of everything from anarcho capitalism, full blown socialism and everything in between.

I or friends saw talks on campus given by people on all sides of the political spectrum- Mike Huckabee, one of Bush's (in)famous campaign advisers, Fareed Zakaria, a member of Obama's cabinet, a Bishop, a retired(?) army general, CEO of McDonalds,etc.

This idea that Ivies or other elite schools are trying to suppress conservatism is a myth. Heck, half the people there want a job in I-Banking and we all know how much they love getting taxed

 

[Aaja]

My med school is extremist conservative catholic and has been slowly but surely adding more and more courses that favor conservative catholic views. They now have a subject called "courtship and marriage"; I'm assuming the purpose of that course is to convince patients that are living co-ed to get legally married because co-ed is sinful and to never have premarital sex.

When abortion before 12 weeks gestation became 100% legal in Mexico City my school literally cringed. During ethics classes they'd comment it quickly it's legal, but would quickly go back to the mantra that abortion is 100% evil and should only be done if the mother's life is in danger.

 

[Frank Nutter]

My med school is extremist conservative catholic and has been slowly but surely adding more and more courses that favor conservative catholic views. They now have a subject called "courtship and marriage"; I'm assuming the purpose of that course is to convince patients that are living co-ed to get legally married because co-ed is sinful and to never have premarital sex.

When abortion before 12 weeks gestation became 100% legal in Mexico City my school literally cringed. During ethics classes they'd comment it quickly it's legal, but would quickly go back to the mantra that abortion is 100% evil and should only be done if the mother's life is in danger.

Your school literally cringed eh? Where is a school's face, like, on the main entrance somewhere? Are windows the eyes? I'd like a picture of this.

 

[Morsetlis]

I literally had an aneurysm laughing when I read that.

 

[ArcGurren]

Jesus christ this thread makes me thoroughly glad I don't know half of you in real life. You must all be really pleasant, nice people, what with all the name-calling and extremist opinions.

People just need to chill, relax, and enjoy life. Take it for what it is, instead of worrying so much about politics. There are things we should be thankful for, so everyone needs to count their blessings.

 

[jdh71]

Jesus christ this thread makes me thoroughly glad I don't know half of you in real life. You must all be really pleasant, nice people, what with all the name-calling and extremist opinions.

People just need to chill, relax, and enjoy life. Take it for what it is, instead of worrying so much about politics. There are things we should be thankful for, so everyone needs to count their blessings.

Which half?

 

[Morsetlis]

The front half.

 

[NickNaylor]

Jesus christ this thread makes me thoroughly glad I don't know half of you in real life. You must all be really pleasant, nice people, what with all the name-calling and extremist opinions.

People just need to chill, relax, and enjoy life. Take it for what it is, instead of worrying so much about politics. There are things we should be thankful for, so everyone needs to count their blessings.

 

[isoquin]

Dr. Oz likes liberals. Isn't that what really matters?

Really, we've had a single example of the "liberal agenda" that is being "bullied" into med students. And it failed. Anything else?

And how often were you graded worse for having an opinion that directly opposed your professor/PhD's/TA's? Professors often want their students to share their same bias, or they'll neg you hard for it, brah.

What med school do you go to? "I'm sorry TPaine, you got a 98% on your anatomy exam, but I just don't like you, so low pass." Or perhaps you are ineffective of judging when to stay quiet on heated issues? That too would show a lock of understanding and tact when it came to diversity. But as someone else said, diversity of ideas is what matters.

My med school is extremist conservative catholic and has been slowly but surely adding more and more courses that favor conservative catholic views. They now have a subject called "courtship and marriage"; I'm assuming the purpose of that course is to convince patients that are living co-ed to get legally married because co-ed is sinful and to never have premarital sex.

When abortion before 12 weeks gestation became 100% legal in Mexico City my school literally cringed. During ethics classes they'd comment it quickly it's legal, but would quickly go back to the mantra that abortion is 100% evil and should only be done if the mother's life is in danger.

Yeah, the 1800s were awesome. I'm surprised you're still practicing medicine! Good for you!

 

[Marcus Brody]

Dr. Oz likes liberals. Isn't that what really matters?

Really, we've had a single example of the "liberal agenda" that is being "bullied" into med students. And it failed. Anything else?

I gave my examples on page 3.

 

[410322]

What med school do you go to? "I'm sorry TPaine, you got a 98% on your anatomy exam, but I just don't like you, so low pass." Or perhaps you are ineffective of judging when to stay quiet on heated issues? That too would show a lock of understanding and tact when it came to diversity. But as someone else said, diversity of ideas is what matters.

I wasn't referring to med school or pt interaction, but to undergrad liberal arts classes. If the point of essays is not to express a diversity of ideas, it's a great exercise in futility. Again, maybe I lucked out with crazy teachers, but I'd wager it happens at many schools.

 

[SGuttenberg]

Last week I was working with an attending who was speaking to a foreign consultant about a case. The attending complained about how hard he was to understand and about how fmg's were terkin er jerbs. Here is a conservative view point being expressed and I couldn't disagree because the guy grades me. Also I can't count the number of times attendings ranted about obama's health care reform and never were their opions anything but negative.

How does this fit in with your paranoid liberal persecution delusions?

 

[willen101383]

You can't say this for certain. Let's say that once the pay gets cut, a primary care doctor who works 60 hrs/week and 50 weeks a year makes $90K before taxes with $300K of debt to pay off.

I wouldn't call that "good money", but it is certainly a substantial possibility given the direction of the debate on this issue.

Dude do you EVER post or comment on anything not related to your crazy doomsday opinions about healthcare? Dont you have some premed courses to finish up? Jesus christ already.

 

[Jack is Back]

Wow, this thread is a train wreck.

 

[pancakesyrup]

Dude do you EVER post or comment on anything not related to your crazy doomsday opinions about healthcare? Dont you have some premed courses to finish up? Jesus christ already.

I've done all my prereqs.

 

[NickNaylor]

I've done all my prereqs.

Whoosh.

 

[Morsetlis]

Reading the Kaplan book taught me more about bioethics than this goddamn course ever did.

And now it's over! Yay!

 

[Instatewaiter]

Look, unless you jokers actually stand up for proper reimbursement they you will consistently see the gov't cutting reimbursement and the way you practice medicine will be drastically changed. There is a reason doctors have become the gov't's punching bag. Our predicesors didn't stand up for themselves and you can see the trends, especially recently.

This is not only about your take home money. It is going to influence how you practice- it already has. Because of declining reimbursement, there is increasing pressure to see more and more patients each day and overhead is increasing as practices have to hire more people to go through the red tape. Many of you aren't even to the point in your training of realizing this but instead of being able to spend adequate time with your patients to build rapport, educate and deal with all of their problems it becomes an assembly line of 10 or 15 minute visits. You can't do everything in 10-15 minutes and so only the most pressing issues get addressed. Patients have to schedule more visits to deal with all of their problems, there is less personal care and as a result patients may become less compliant. This is not the medicine that anyone goes to medical school to practice.

This is why concierge practice is loved by both doctors and patients. The doctors have more time to spend with patients, have a smaller patient census and can fine tune care. Patients get to address all of their concerns and have more access to their doctors.

So the money issue isn't only about your pocket book.

 

[willen101383]

Look, unless you jokers actually stand up for proper reimbursement they you will consistently see the gov't cutting reimbursement and the way you practice medicine will be drastically changed. There is a reason doctors have become the gov't's punching bag. Our predicesors didn't stand up for themselves and you can see the trends, especially recently.

This is not only about your take home money. It is going to influence how you practice- it already has. Because of declining reimbursement, there is increasing pressure to see more and more patients each day and overhead is increasing as practices have to hire more people to go through the red tape. Many of you aren't even to the point in your training of realizing this but instead of being able to spend adequate time with your patients to build rapport, educate and deal with all of their problems it becomes an assembly line of 10 or 15 minute visits. You can't do everything in 10-15 minutes and so only the most pressing issues get addressed. Patients have to schedule more visits to deal with all of their problems, there is less personal care and as a result patients may become less compliant. This is not the medicine that anyone goes to medical school to practice.

This is why concierge practice is loved by both doctors and patients. The doctors have more time to spend with patients, have a smaller patient census and can fine tune care. Patients get to address all of their concerns and have more access to their doctors.

So the money issue isn't only about your pocket book.

Is the concierge model something you are seeking out once you get into practice? I recall you are IM...any fellowship plans? How would this model of care work for anything outside of FM/IM? I think CC sounds like a really awesome business model. Either that or have your concierge patients..and supplement those with insurance bearing patients.

It is unfortunate that most medical schools love forcing you to take classes on ethics and evidence based medicine, yet have zero education on: what we are facing as new docs in the coming decade, how to negotiate the healthcare system, how to set up a practice etc.


Anyways sort of went off on a tangent there...but I agree that past generations of docs have really set the stage for the current relationship between docs and the government. What to do what to do. Its too bad that the general public cant see that a doc is just like any other person: trying to make a healthy living and feed and support their spouse and family.

 

[isoquin]

I gave my examples on page 3.

you may want to specify which thread, cuz you didn't post anything on page 3 here. Unless you changed away from the default paging numbers. perhaps link to post?

 

[Instatewaiter]

Is the concierge model something you are seeking out once you get into practice? I recall you are IM...any fellowship plans? How would this model of care work for anything outside of FM/IM? I think CC sounds like a really awesome business model. Either that or have your concierge patients..and supplement those with insurance bearing patients.

It is unfortunate that most medical schools love forcing you to take classes on ethics and evidence based medicine, yet have zero education on: what we are facing as new docs in the coming decade, how to negotiate the healthcare system, how to set up a practice etc.


Anyways sort of went off on a tangent there...but I agree that past generations of docs have really set the stage for the current relationship between docs and the government. What to do what to do. Its too bad that the general public cant see that a doc is just like any other person: trying to make a healthy living and feed and support their spouse and family.

I am in IM but I am going into cards. I think concierge practice is much more difficult as a specialist, especially in cards. However, were I to stay in IM, I would most definitely do concierge practice. Outside of the "it's not fair" crap people spew, concierge practice has few problems. It lets you take better care of your patients and have the kind of interaction with your patients that our predecessors had all while cutting out a lot of the bull crap. Despite spending more time with patients you maintain the same income as if you were seeing twice as many patients. Some people even do markedly better in concierge practice compared with their counterparts who see 30+ patients in a day. It is very hard to take really great care of people when you're lining them up like cattle.

 

[mrwesticles]

Liberal indoctrination is generally directly proportional to the school's emphasis on primary care.

 

[NH14]

OP: Yes. If you can't think critically for yourself, you're a *****.

 

[Crow King]

OP: Yes. If you can't think critically for yourself, you're a *****.

I'd rather the schools have a National Socialist leaning. But only because people will be able to think critically for themselves and therefore disregard it if they don't like it.

Someday, someday.

 

[DrCharlesMBurns]

Both liberals and conservatives are idiots:

"Rick Perry" — A BLR Soundbite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhDhDRvHaGs

"Trick The Bridesmaid" — a Bad Lip Reading of Barack Obama
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehYoIKTsiV0

 

[medstudent1113]

I think med schools have a liberal bias. Case and point: they tell us to treat patients based on "scientific evidence". We all know that us conservatives don't believe in science.

Sincerely,
The guy who has been yelling in the audience at the republican debates


P.S. - Perry and Palin 2012.

 

[Jack is Back]

I think med schools have a liberal bias. Case and point: they tell us to treat patients based on "scientific evidence". We all know that us conservatives don't believe in science.

Sincerely,
The guy who has been yelling in the audience at the republican debates


P.S. - Perry and Palin 2012.

Palin?

 

[Crow King]

I heard Herman Cain is becoming popular with the Republicans.

What a world we live in where the redneck bigots are supporting a black man for POTUS.

 

[Jack is Back]

Never heard of this Herman Cain guy, but I looked him up.

Only 9% personal income tax... sounds good to me!

I may vote for this guy.

 

[STAT EKG]

This is might be considered a tangent, but it looks like this thread has gone off on several tangents already, so...

One thing I don't understand is why a critical step in declining reimbursements with "Obamacare" always seems to be left out (in the current non-single-payer health insurance climate). I might be totally off-base here, who knows.

1. government insurance reimbursement rates decline
2. private insurers' rates of reimbursement decline, following suit of government plans, in order to "stay competitive"
3. pre-meds, med students, residents, and attendings blame the government/obama for declining reimbursement rates.

Maybe it just seems this way to me, but it seems like people shrug off step two as inevitable without mentioning that private insurers have been posting record profits in a tanking economy... and these same private insurers would decrease reimbursement rates, essentially footing the bill to doctors/healthcare providers, in order to maintain their "baseline" record profits.

I'm admittedly kind of a *****, but - at least in this model of projected declining reimbursements... aren't private insurers screwing over doctors/healthcare providers just as much *if not more* than the government?

 

[NickNaylor]

This is might be considered a tangent, but it looks like this thread has gone off on several tangents already, so...

One thing I don't understand is why a critical step in declining reimbursements with "Obamacare" always seems to be left out (in the current non-single-payer health insurance climate). I might be totally off-base here, who knows.

1. government insurance reimbursement rates decline
2. private insurers' rates of reimbursement decline, following suit of government plans, in order to "stay competitive"
3. pre-meds, med students, residents, and attendings blame the government/obama for declining reimbursement rates.

Maybe it just seems this way to me, but it seems like people shrug off step two as inevitable without mentioning that private insurers have been posting record profits in a tanking economy... and these same private insurers would decrease reimbursement rates, essentially footing the bill to doctors/healthcare providers, in order to maintain their "baseline" record profits.

I'm admittedly kind of a *****, but - at least in this model of projected declining reimbursements... aren't private insurers screwing over doctors/healthcare providers just as much *if not more* than the government?

Private insurance reimbursement rates are usually DIRECTLY linked to what Medicare pays for something: private insurers usually charge a multiple of Medicare does. If, for example, Medicare provides a reimbursement of $50 for a PCP visit, private insurance might reimburse at $150 for the same visit.

The problem is the reliance on CMS reimbursement rates to determine how much services get paid, which is ultimately subject to immense political pressure. Politicians see reimbursement as an easy target because the savings you can get make nice sound bites and newspaper headlines. You'll NEVER see a politician arguing for an increase in reimbursement rates. I understand why the private insurers do it - it provides at least an idea of what might be "reasonable" to reimburse for a particular service - but physicians are unfortunately the ones on the short end of the stick.

 

[MedicinaeDoctor]

I think med schools have a liberal bias. Case and point: they tell us to treat patients based on "scientific evidence". We all know that us conservatives don't believe in science.

HAHA! For the win!

 

[NickNaylor]

Never heard of this Herman Cain guy, but I looked him up.

Only 9% personal income tax... sounds good to me!

I may vote for this guy.

Plus a 9% consumption tax - don't forget that.

 

[NH14]

Hmmmm...a professional school teaching a profession centered upon the caring of sick and vulnerable individuals being liberal? No....it can't be!

OP: If you're not liberal, leave medical school and go join the Tea Party Express and run this country into the ground.

 

[Crow King]

Hmmmm...a professional school teaching a profession centered upon the caring of sick and vulnerable individuals being liberal? No....it can't be!

Liberals or conservatives are no more caring or compassionate than the other.

 

[Crow King]

OP: If you're not liberal, leave medical school and go join the Tea Party Express and run this country into the ground.

This country has already been run into the ground. Many thanks to liberals and neocons.

 

[NH14]

Liberals or conservatives are no more caring or compassionate than the other.

Maybe...but if you equate liberal = democrat and conservative = republican, it is clear to see that democrats are more caring and compassionate than republicans.

That is unless you were living under a rock through the end of July and early August.

 

[NH14]

Also, republicans tend to not even believe in Global Warming (READ: http://earthleaders.org/projects/psf/Dunlap%20%20McCright%202008%20A%20widening%20gap%20Environment.pdf)

So, it could even be that conservatives (not necessarily the OP) are thinking that med schools are teaching 'liberal indoctrination' due to the fact that they are actually teaching science!!! OMG!

But I know you're not faulting the med school for teaching a scientifically-founded curriculum... But I just find it interesting that republicans are started to put more faith in voodoo than actual science.

 

[isoquin]

This country has already been run into the ground. Many thanks to liberals and neocons.

clearly. nothing says "bad country" than a bunch of privileged citizens going into a highly respected field. or is that "whiner"?

again I ask: what other examples are there for such negative associations med schools have with liberal force? The list has yet to surface.

 

[Crow King]

clearly. nothing says "bad country" than a bunch of privileged citizens going into a highly respected field. or is that "whiner"?

I'm privileged? I went to one of the most meritocratic schools in the world. Sorry *******, I made it on my own smarts. I suppose for that, I am privileged.

again I ask: what other examples are there for such negative associations med schools have with liberal force? The list has yet to surface.

Diversity statements in personal statements with only 1 acceptable answer.
Racist admissions policies (Affirmative action)
Race-based school clubs
Collective ridicule from students for having conservative opinions (Social Marxism)
Professors interjecting politics into medical discussions (Obamacare)
Group discussions on issues relating to multiculturalism and diveristy with only 1 acceptable answer.

 

[Laryngophed]

To say that this thread has outlived its utility is a vast overstatement.


It had no utility. There are jackasses on both sides of the aisle. If you are being preached down to by someone with whom you don't agree, do what every teenager does and ignore them.

 

[Crow King]

It had no utility. There are jackasses on both sides of the aisle. If you are being preached down to by someone with whom you don't agree, do what every teenager does and ignore them.

Life is too short for that, I'd rather have some fun and FIGHT!

 

[Morsetlis]

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Hmmmm...a professional school teaching a profession centered upon the caring of sick and vulnerable individuals being liberal? No....it can't be!

OP: If you're not liberal, leave medical school and go join the Tea Party Express and run this country into the ground.

I shouldn't respond to this but I have to.

The entire idea behind the tea party movement is that we don't need gov't to provide for us- which is exactly what the founding fathers allude to in their writings. Unfortunately a few bad apples in the tea party ruin the bunch and give it a bad name. Someone needs to stand up and say, "Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin, you crazies are not welcome here"

Maybe...but if you equate liberal = democrat and conservative = republican, it is clear to see that democrats are more caring and compassionate than republicans.

The republicans for over a decade have not been conservative. Large gov't and hyper-religiosity are not conservatism. I still don't get why the republicans play to the religious right.

 

[Marcus Brody]

The republicans for over a decade have not been conservative. Large gov't and hyper-religiosity are not conservatism. I still don't get why the republicans play to the religious right.

If big government isn't conservatism, then the GOP has never been conservative. The first republican president himself expanded government power more than any president that followed, Democrat or Republican.

 

[Aislinn]

I'm grateful for the school I go to because they go to great lengths to keep politics out of the classroom. But not all schools are like that. I won't mention the school, but my cousin attends a med school where they have an active bioethics curriculum. One of their assignments was to write down how they feel about different groups of people and write an essay on their own prejudices and biases and how they will overcome that as a physician. My cousin told the professor that he didn't feel was prejudiced or biased toward any of these groups and the professor basically told him that everyone is prejudiced in some way and that he had to write about it if he wanted credit for the class.

I'm pretty sure there has to be something in school policy that would outlaw holding a students grade above his head if he doesn't write an essay about his prejudices and sign his name to it so that it can be inserted into his file. There certainly should be.

 

[Gut Shot]

I'm grateful for the school I go to because they go to great lengths to keep politics out of the classroom. But not all schools are like that. I won't mention the school, but my cousin attends a med school where they have an active bioethics curriculum. One of their assignments was to write down how they feel about different groups of people and write an essay on their own prejudices and biases and how they will overcome that as a physician. My cousin told the professor that he didn't feel was prejudiced or biased toward any of these groups and the professor basically told him that everyone is prejudiced in some way and that he had to write about it if he wanted credit for the class.

I'm pretty sure there has to be something in school policy that would outlaw holding a students grade above his head if he doesn't write an essay about his prejudices and sign his name to it so that it can be inserted into his file. There certainly should be.

Your cousin should pick up a copy of "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell. It will make him/her/it feel better.

 

[pancakesyrup]

If you're not liberal, leave medical school

Okay now, this is just a ridiculous statement. Really, it is absurd, and a blatant insult to all medical professionals with conservative or moderate political views.

It would be just as absurd if I said that anyone who isn't conservative should leave medical school because conservatives believe in hard work while liberals believe in handouts to the lazy.

 

[isoquin]

I'm privileged? I went to one of the most meritocratic schools in the world. Sorry *******, I made it on my own smarts. I suppose for that, I am privileged.

Yes. Glad you agree with my point.

Diversity statements in personal statements with only 1 acceptable answer.

You mean, you were only smart enough to figure out one acceptable answer.

Racist admissions policies (Affirmative action)
Race-based school clubs

You have a problem with other students peacefully forming culture-based clubs that openly invite all students to share in their heritage? Are you really that insecure and threatened by non-white medical students organizing events which you have absolutely no obligation to participate in that you would refer to such possibilities as "liberal bullying" into a different mindset?! I'm looking forward to a predicted slippery slope retort to this.

Professors interjecting politics into medical discussions (Obamacare)

So you have a problem with people talking about current events? Is this the majority of your professors doing this? Or just a very small minority you disagree with?

Collective ridicule from students for having conservative opinions

And now we come to the real heart of the matter: not the institution, but other med students disagreeing with your ideas. If you make points in real life as you've made them here, I can only suspect they are equally unsupported. Keep in mind I'm not even shooting down conservative points of yours (as you've made none), just unsupported ones.

While I would in no way deny that medical schools or any other higher education institution are usually on the more liberal side, the idea that you are a poor victim being hurt by such intellectuals is just silly, especially in light of so many of your complaints being directed at non-white people being around you.... doing things.