Does your undergraduate institution matter a lot when applying to medical school?

[OldRedditGuy]

I've been reading a lot on this matter. Perhaps, even a bit too much, but this topic really worries me. I'm applying to med school very soon, and I attended a state school in Florida, the University of Central Florida to he specific. I'm applying to top programs like Harvard, Columbia, Penn, and Mayo, and I am wondering if adcoms will discriminate against me because of my school. Could you perhaps shine some light on me regarding this topic?

If you need to know my stats, you can find it on another post. If you want me to post them here, I will. For simple stats though, I will post my GPA information and my MCAT score.

-Overall GPA: 3.61
-BCPM GPA: 3.63
-Major GPA: 3.73
-My Last 4 Years Institutional GPA: 4.0
-MCAT Score: 525 (100th Percentile)

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[FreeRadicals]

I think it matters very little, if any at all.

 

[OldRedditGuy]

I think it matters very little, if any at all.

I like to hear this lol

 

[FreeRadicals]

I like to hear this lol

Could you DM me I have a few questions to ask you?

 

[OldRedditGuy]

Could you DM me I have a few questions to ask you?

Sure

 

[skk_]

I think it matters very little, if any at all.

Given that OP is talking exclusively about top tier schools.... I used to think this to, but your attitude tends to change after the 4th or 5th Top 10 interview you attend where you're once again one of only 2-3 people from a state school even there. I don't think those schools discriminate against people from state universities at all, but at the same time it definitely did not feel like school prestige had "very little, if any at all" impact on who they decided to interview, and who they ended up admitting.

This said, none of this will probably affect OP with a 525.

 

[OldRedditGuy]

Given that OP is talking exclusively about top tier schools.... I used to think this to, but your attitude tends to change after the 4th or 5th Top 10 interview you attend where you're once again one of only 2-3 people from a state school even there. I don't think those schools discriminate against people from state universities at all, but at the same time it definitely did not feel like school prestige had "very little, if any at all" impact on who they decided to interview, and who they ended up admitting.

This said, none of this will probably affect OP with a 525.

Awesome! I've been told by numerous others that my MCAT basically knocks down every door for me. I hope that is true lol.

 

[Unlimited Apps]

I've been reading a lot on this matter. Perhaps, even a bit too much, but this topic really worries me. I'm applying to med school very soon, and I attended a state school in Florida, the University of Central Florida to he specific. I'm applying to top programs like Harvard, Columbia, Penn, and Mayo, and I am wondering if adcoms will discriminate against me because of my school. Could you perhaps shine some light on me regarding this topic?

If you need to know my stats, you can find it on another post. If you want me to post them here, I will. For simple stats though, I will post my GPA information and my MCAT score.

-Overall GPA: 3.61
-BCPM GPA: 3.63
-Major GPA: 3.73
-My Last 4 Years Institutional GPA: 4.0
-MCAT Score: 525 (100th Percentile)

Lol with a 525 on your MCAT, you could have gotten a degree from University of Middle Of Freaking Nowhere Arkansas and probably still have some top schools come calling.

(No offense to anyone that is from Arkansas, feel free to replace that state with any other state in your mind).

 

[OldRedditGuy]

Lol with a 525 on your MCAT, you could have gotten a degree from University of Middle Of Freaking Nowhere Arkansas and still have top schools come calling.

Lol the once again I must say awesome! I'm glad I'm hearing this won't be a big issue.

 

[FreeRadicals]

Lol with a 525 on your MCAT, you could have gotten a degree from University of Middle Of Freaking Nowhere Arkansas and still have top schools come calling.

Haven't laughed this hard in awhile.

 

[JustAUser]

You can see that "selectivity of undergraduate institution" is not given much importance.

 

[raiderette]

Don't forget to put WUSTL on your list. They love high MCAT.

 

[FreeRadicals]

Don't forget to put WUSTL on your list. They love high MCAT.

WUSTL requires calculus integral through diff eq.

 

[raiderette]

WUSTL requires calculus integral through diff eq. WTF?

They also take a stats class as substitute for one calculus class. I just took calculus because I knew a few schools needed it.

 

[FreeRadicals]

They also take a stats class as substitute for one calculus class. I just took calculus because I knew a few schools needed it.

Wait, I've taken calc 1 and calc 2, but Diff eq. is in Calc 3 - does this mean I have to take calc 3?

 

[OldRedditGuy]

WUSTL is in my list for sure!

Also note, I've taken calc 1, 2, 3, diff equations, linear algebra, and on lol.

 

[FreeRadicals]

WUSTL is in my list for sure!

Also note, I've taken calc 1, 2, 3, diff equations, linear algebra, and on lol.

Wow, math major?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I know one guy with 526 MCAT and 3.7 GPA from 14th ranked school and he didn't get any top schools this year,so I doubt 100th percentile school will knock down doors.

 

[OldRedditGuy]

Wow, math major?

No, I dual majored in Physics (w/ a concentration in Materials Physics) and Chemistry (w/ a concentration in Biochemistry.

I know one guy with 526 MCAT and 3.7 GPA from 14th ranked school and he didn't get any top schools this year,so I doubt 100th percentile school will knock down doors.

And okay, maybe not knock doors down, but I'd at least say it NEARLY guarantees admission to a top 20 school and puts me in fantastic shape for top 10 schools (this is of course as long as I do good in everything else). I'm not knocking your friend in any way, but perhaps his reason for not gaining admission to any top schools were weak ECs or essays.

 

[gyngyn]

I do have folks on our waitlist with this score and no acceptance. It happens.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

No, I dual majored in Physics (w/ a concentration in Materials Physics) and Chemistry (w/ a concentration in Biochemistry.



And okay, maybe not knock doors down, but I'd at least say it NEARLY guarantees admission to a top 20 school and puts me in fantastic shape for top 10 schools (this is of course as long as I do good in everything else). I'm not knocking your friend in any way, but perhaps his reason for not gaining admission to any top schools were weak ECs or essays.

Possible, but I heard he has decent ECs and leadership. He was WL on 2 top 15 schools but decided to go to state school.

 

[Valtun]

I do have folks on our waitlist with this score and no acceptance. It happens.

Does this come from bad interviews? Or do other factors come into play

 

[gyngyn]

Does this come from bad interviews? Or do other factors come into play

The committee has access to all available information. It could be any combination of factors (except stats!).

 

[Goro]

I've been reading a lot on this matter. Perhaps, even a bit too much, but this topic really worries me. I'm applying to med school very soon, and I attended a state school in Florida, the University of Central Florida to he specific. I'm applying to top programs like Harvard, Columbia, Penn, and Mayo, and I am wondering if adcoms will discriminate against me because of my school. Could you perhaps shine some light on me regarding this topic?

If you need to know my stats, you can find it on another post. If you want me to post them here, I will. For simple stats though, I will post my GPA information and my MCAT score.

-Overall GPA: 3.61
-BCPM GPA: 3.63
-Major GPA: 3.73
-My Last 4 Years Institutional GPA: 4.0
-MCAT Score: 525 (100th Percentile)

People from UG schools known to be feeders to med schools can get more of a boost. That said, one shoudl always have a strategic list and apply accordingly. If you're an NYU caliber candidate, you should be applying to all NYU class schools.

 

[Lucca]

we compiled a lot of information on this topic in the following thread:

Data: A Case Study in Bias for Prestigious Undergrads, Yale SOM

You can't go by the adcom survey to accurately answer this question because the extent to which your undergrad institution matters depends significantly on the school you are applying to. The schools at which this matters significantly are a minority. Therefore, the effect is lost when only examining the ensemble.

similar data for MD/PhD programs, looking at more schools:

Data: Elite School Bias in MD/PhD Admissions


tl;dr: yes undergrad matters. How much? is a difficult question to answer (and varies from not at all to quite a bit), but it is likely unique for each individual school. It is also difficult to control, objectively, for factors like average quality of the applicant from X institution.

 

[OldRedditGuy]

People from UG schools known to be feeders to med schools can get more of a boost. That said, one shoudl always have a strategic list and apply accordingly. If you're an NYU caliber candidate, you should be applying to all NYU class schools.

I'm applying to 4 schools in New York (Columbia, Cornell, NYU, & Icahn), so I've got that down lol

Possible, but I heard he has decent ECs and leadership. He was WL on 2 top 15 schools but decided to go to state school.

That's a little discouraging to me lol

 

[Goro]

I'm applying to 4 schools in New York (Columbia, Cornell, NYU, & Icahn), so I've got that down lol



That's a little discouraging to me lol

60% of applicants never go to med school. 20% of those that get accepts have but a single accept.

 

[DokterMom]

For schools like Harvard, Stanford and Penn, your undergraduate school does matter. For top-ranked public schools, it matters very little.

Please take a closer look at the fine print in @JustAUser post #11. Top private schools like Harvard, Stanford and Penn prefer students from top private undergrads like Harvard, Stanford and Penn.

Now a 525 will get anybody's attention as will a tough science major and a 4.0 for the last four years.

Your job will be to show that you are a compassionate human who can relate well to others.

 

[OldRedditGuy]

we compiled a lot of information on this topic in the following thread:

Data: A Case Study in Bias for Prestigious Undergrads, Yale SOM

You can't go by the adcom survey to accurately answer this question because the extent to which your undergrad institution matters depends significantly on the school you are applying to. The schools at which this matters significantly are a minority. Therefore, the effect is lost when only examining the ensemble.

similar data for MD/PhD programs, looking at more schools:

Data: Elite School Bias in MD/PhD Admissions


tl;dr: yes undergrad matters. How much? is a difficult question to answer (and varies from not at all to quite a bit), but it is likely unique for each individual school. It is also difficult to control, objectively, for factors like average quality of the applicant from X institution.

You know, I really don't like these numbers lol.

60% of applicants never go to med school. 20% of those that get accepts have but a single accept.

I know this, and I've always wondered what factors play into this. Is it poor stats, not enough space, or just a change of heart? Perhaps, it is a combination of everything.

 

[OldRedditGuy]

For schools like Harvard, Stanford and Penn, your undergraduate school does matter. For top-ranked public schools, it matters very little.

Please take a closer look at the fine print in @JustAUser post #11. Top private schools like Harvard, Stanford and Penn prefer students from top private undergrads like Harvard, Stanford and Penn.

Now a 525 will get anybody's attention as will a tough science major and a 4.0 for the last four years.

Your job will be to show that you are a compassionate human who can relate well to others.

I'd like to think that I can do that, so I hope I get in lol. If I had to pick, I'd say my dream school isn't actually Harvard believe it or not. I'd say my top pick would be Mayo.

 

[Lucca]

You know, I really don't like these numbers lol.



I know this, and I've always wondered what factors play into this. Is it poor stats, not enough space, or just a change of heart? Perhaps, it is a combination of everything.

ultimately the numbers are only interesting from a statistical perspective. At the end of the day you either apply or dont, get an II or dont, and get accepted or don't. That's really all there is to it. The best you can do is create a school list that accounts for things like this. Of all of the things you need to consider, undergraduate prestige bias is the *least* of them.

 

[gonnif]

60% of applicants never go to med school. 20% of those that get accepts have but a single accept.

Lets correct this
Of the total applicant pool
60% get rejected
20% get a single acceptance of any kind
20% get 2 or more acceptances

Or about 1/2 of all matriculants get a single acceptance.

 

[skk_]

And okay, maybe not knock doors down, but I'd at least say it NEARLY guarantees admission to a top 20 school and puts me in fantastic shape for top 10 schools (this is of course as long as I do good in everything else). I'm not knocking your friend in any way, but perhaps his reason for not gaining admission to any top schools were weak ECs or essays.

This is extremely dangerous talk. Take it for someone who interviewed at half the Top 20 last year - the level of competition is so high everywhere within the Top 20 that you are guaranteed nothing. I know people with similar stats to yours who struck out completely within the Top 20, even with good ECs, LORs and interviews - there were just people the school liked more, and raw stats will only get you so far.

Don't get me wrong - your chances are very good that you'll make it into a top tier institution. However, trying to draw any conclusions beyond knowing that you have very competitive stats, and looking for anything even remotely approaching a guarantee is just asking to get yourself kneecapped during your application cycle due to overconfidence.

 

[OldRedditGuy]

This is extremely dangerous talk. Take it for someone who interviewed at half the Top 20 last year - the level of competition is so high everywhere within the Top 20 that you are guaranteed nothing. I know people with similar stats to yours who struck out completely within the Top 20, even with good ECs, LORs and interviews - there were just people the school liked more, and raw stats will only get you so far.

Don't get me wrong - your chances are very good that you'll make it into a top tier institution. However, trying to draw any conclusions beyond knowing that you have very competitive stats, and looking for anything even remotely approaching a guarantee is just asking to get yourself kneecapped during your application cycle due to overconfidence.

Fair enough on that point. Jeez, I think this thread created more worry and anxiety than I started it with lol.

I'd like to ask this a little then. So, do I need to attend a top 20 to be competitive for a very competitive specialty like surgery?

 

[gyngyn]

So, do I need to attend a top 20 to be competitive for a very competitive specialty like surgery?

No.

 

[Goro]

You know, I really don't like these numbers lol.
I know this, and I've always wondered what factors play into this. Is it poor stats, not enough space, or just a change of heart? Perhaps, it is a combination of everything.

I'd say about 50% of the people applying to med school have no business ever setting foot on a med school campus, except as standardized patients.

Fair enough on that point. Jeez, I think this thread created more worry and anxiety than I started it with lol.
I'd like to ask this a little then. So, do I need to attend a top 20 to be competitive for a very competitive specialty like surgery?

No. Look at MSAR Online and see what % of grads go into surgery. I'll help:
Wake: 4%
Drexel: 5%
Harvard: 6%
SUNY-SB: 8%

What do you conclude?

 

[OldRedditGuy]

I'd say about 50% of the people applying to med school have no business ever setting foot on a med school campus, except as standardized patients.


No. Look at MSAR Online and see what % of grads go into surgery. I'll help:
Wake: 4%
Drexel: 5%
Harvard: 6%
SUNY-SB: 8%

What do you conclude?

Good point, and very good to know. Well, getting into a top school isn't necessarily a requirement for myself lol. I'll be happy if I can just get into a great program. If I had to take my pick outside of the top 20, I'd go with Virgina. It is very close to family, but they're right outside of that top 20 so I don't know if I can call them that lol

 

[WedgeDawg]

It matters but it’s not the most important thing and high performers from non-elite undergrads will do very well

 

[WedgeDawg]

Med school tier matters for residency program tiers and in competitive specialties don’t let anyone tell you otherwise

 

[OldRedditGuy]

It matters but it’s not the most important thing and high performers from non-elite undergrads will do very well

Med school tier matters for residency program tiers and in competitive specialties don’t let anyone tell you otherwise

Thank you. I assume they did; though, I did not know how much. However, as long as I am given the same opportunities as those from elite programs as long as I work hard, I will be happy.

 

[RNthenDoc]

Go knights!

FWIW I have a long list of ivy anecdotes from folks who’s stats were worse than OPs.

 

[OldRedditGuy]

Go knights!

FWIW I have a long list of ivy anecdotes from folks who’s stats were worse than OPs.

Agreed, GO KNIGHTS! That's good to hear lol.

 

[efle]

Check my signature for the original adcom survey, which DID find the school you attended to be a highest importance factor among private schools (after this survey results came out, they changed their tune in the follow up).

The bias absolutely does exist - here is some further data from interviews at a very competitive program last cycle:

Alright, for those curious, here are some interesting values regarding the 2017-2018 cohort of interviewees at a top private medical school (n > 500):

Attended Canadian college: 3%
Attended a college ranked only regionally by US News: 3%
Was the only interviewee from their college for the year: 13%

Among schools receiving a US News national rank...

US News ranked 1-25: 68% of interviewed students
US News ranked 26-50: 13%
US News ranked 51-75: 8%
US News ranked 76-100: 3%
US News ranked from 101+: 9%

The best represented colleges...

Hopkins, Harvard, Duke, Stanford, UCLA, Yale, Penn, Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth, UNC, Princeton, WashU, USC, Berkeley, U Chicago, Columbia. These 17 together provided the majority (54%) of interviewees.


Universities which were ranked in the top 25 but did not provide any interviewees:

Caltech, Carnegie Mellon

It's not an insurmountable bias, though. 20% do come from places ranked 50+.

Honestly the 3.6 cGPA is going to be a bigger hurdle than the alma mater for a lot of the top 10-20, where admitted medians are often ~3.9 and 10th percentiles are usually 3.6x.