Doing an audition rotation and not getting an interview invitation/questioning of my academic merit?

[microshar88]

Hi,
I finished an audition rotation that I applied for via VSAS. I'm a DO going into a fairly non-competitive specialty and the rotation is ACGME (brand new, desirable locale, had half class as DO's for incoming year).

When I applied, I called and asked the PC if the program accepts COMLEX scores and if there is a minimum cut off. She indicated to me that "we gladly take COMLEX scores and a passing score is all that is required." So I sent in my COMLEX 1 on VSAS with supplemental application materials and was granted the rotation. We have had a lot of time with the PD and the assistant PD. I'm not perfect by any means in what I do, but I made it a consistent effort to get better with everyday. I stayed late and came earlier than when were suppose to. I think I had a decent rapport with the attendings (they didn't say that I was perfect, but I didn't do anything to disappoint them, no did I try to gun).

Long story short, I recently found out that she has been telling some other students that its bad for anyone to take only COMLEX and a score less than a 500 raises a lot of eyebrows and the student better kick the sh^t out of the audition rotation to get an interview there and have a damn good reason for not taking the USMLE.

I checked with some students and all of them have gotten the invitation. Which likely means no invite for me. I'm ok with it as I don't think this is the type of hostile atmosphere I deserve to be working in eventhough my COMLEX level 1 was around ~480 and level 2 was ~415. these were both passed first time..I'm glad that I did not take the USMLE and risk a failing score.

What truly disappoints me is that, they had my COMLEX 1 at the time of my audition application and they happily took it (I know they turned down others for the audition spots). Yet now, they are rejecting me based on my academic merit?

I just don't think programs should accept individuals for audition rotations when they do not meet the criteria for an interview. I feel like I wasted a lot of traveling expenses and could have done my audition rotation at a place where it would have counted had they been upfront about it.

Sorry to vent, I was just wondering if anyone else has been in a similar situation?

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[organdonor]

We'll on the other hand I did an audition rotation and did amazing; even had one of the associate directors whom I worked with write a fantastic LOR. The rotation could not have gone better. Got an interview there which felt like just a formality. Told them I'd be ranking them highly and got good vibes from them all season long.

Ranked them first and didn't match there.

 

[microshar88]

yeah that really sucks

 

[gutonc]

We'll on the other hand I did an audition rotation and did amazing; even had one of the associate directors whom I worked with write a fantastic LOR. The rotation could not have gone better. Got an interview there which felt like just a formality. Told them I'd be ranking them highly and got good vibes from them all season long.

Ranked them first and didn't match there.

The moral of this story is the same thing we (the folks who have been around here for awhile) tell you (the folks applying this year) about these love letters.

Believe nothing.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I just don't think programs should accept individuals for audition rotations when they do not meet the criteria for an interview. I feel like I wasted a lot of traveling expenses and could have done my audition rotation at a place where it would have counted had they been upfront about it.

See the thing is, at my med school and my residency - the away rotations are handled through the medical school. We (the residency) have no say over who comes. The slots get filled in a first come first serve fashion, and then the M3/M4 clerkship coordinator handles the logistics. They never formally interact with the residency program.

So what is the program supposed to do? We have no input on who gets to come.

Our plastics people have managed to wrest control of the away rotations away from the school and selects students on merit. I have no idea logistically/politically how they did that.

 

[DermViser]

See the thing is, at my med school and my residency - the away rotations are handled through the medical school. We (the residency) have no say over who comes. The slots get filled in a first come first serve fashion, and then the M3/M4 clerkship coordinator handles the logistics. They never formally interact with the residency program.

So what is the program supposed to do? We have no input on who gets to come.

Our plastics people have managed to wrest control of the away rotations away from the school and selects students on merit. I have no idea logistically/politically how they did that.

THIS. A lot of times, actually most of the time, visiting student/audition elective rotations in the M4 year are handled by the medical school in terms of approval, not the residency program. In fact, students are told NOT to contact the faculty w/regards to setting up the elective, to try to hop over the process. I believe the residency program can list certain criteria in terms of board scores, required rotations finished, etc. but it's not like a pre-interview of sorts. Your fees go to the medical school not the residency program.

That being said, realize that an audition elective's purpose is to garner a letter of recommendation. It in no way guarantees an interview to that program.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

THIS. A lot of times, actually most of the time, visiting student/audition elective rotations in the M4 year are handled by the medical school in terms of approval, not the residency program. In fact, students are told NOT to contact the faculty w/regards to setting up the elective, to try to hop over the process. I believe the residency program can list certain criteria in terms of board scores, required rotations finished, etc. but it's not like a pre-interview of sorts. Your fees go to the medical school not the residency program.

That being said, realize that an audition elective's purpose is to garner a letter of recommendation. It in no way guarantees an interview to that program.

Yup. While it might not seem "fair" - the onus is on the medical student to appropriately choose the rotations they are competitive for.

 

[DermViser]

Yup. While it might not seem "fair" - the onus is on the medical student to appropriately choose the rotations they are competitive for.

Yup. Penn Derm has put that on their residency website now: http://www.med.upenn.edu/dermres/residency.html

Students who have gone thru the gauntlet of college and med school admissions, and medical school, are thought to be adult enough to validly assess their chances when it comes to getting interviews based on their application up to that point, faculty advising (assuming they know what they're doing and aren't too afraid of getting blowback from the student), etc. A fantastic 1 month audition elective's purpose is to garner a good LOR, but I think maybe students are expecting it to do more than that for some odd reason.

 

[evilbooyaa]

An audition rotation won't turn you from an uninterviewable candidate to someone definitely interviewable. It can push you from borderline to good (or bad, depending on how you do on the rotation).

 

[microshar88]

then why would the program coordinators want such thorough app materials such as a statement of intent, a COMLEX level 1 score etc

 

[DermViser]

then why would the program coordinators want such thorough app materials such as a statement of intent, a COMLEX level 1 score etc

Bc those are formalities. Most schools have requirements that you've taken Step 1/COMLEX, and finished your third year so they make you send a transcript.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Damn. I wish I fully understood this before scheduling aways. I was rejected from a place I did an away with the hope that it might help boost my chances for interviewing and matching... I had no idea we weren't preselected as possible interview candidates. What a waste of time and money.

 

[gutonc]

Many of us have been saying this for-EVAH. The fact that you all don't pay attention is on you.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Many of us have been saying this for-EVAH. The fact that you all don't pay attention is on you.

Ah, I'll try to read every single SDN thread from here on out. Thanks for the advice.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Ah, I'll try to read every single SDN thread from here on out. Thanks for the advice.

You have 7000 posts and have been here for six years.

It's not like this is an obscure point. I've seen this mentioned dozens of times. Or you could have asked for advice prior to scheduling your aways.

 

[DTUD]

An audition rotation won't turn you from an uninterviewable candidate to someone definitely interviewable. It can push you from borderline to good (or bad, depending on how you do on the rotation).

I'm going into IM and was advised by my schools advisers against doing an away rotation because it was a gamble and could go either way with little chance of helping that much, so I ultimately didn't do one.

That being said however, although what you're saying is true, I feel like it really shouldn't be (in my opinion). I mean, if I were hiring someone for a job, one person scored a 250 and seemed reasonable in my half-hour interview with them, and someone else scored a 230 but came for a trial month and consistently did a good job in a role that was close to the position they were applying for, I'd be much more inclined to hire the latter as they've proven themselves in what I consider to be a much more concrete way to me directly than someone who tests well and had a couple people write them a LOR with the expectation that if they agreed to write it in the first place, they were probably going to write a strong one.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I'm going into IM and was advised by my schools advisers against doing an away rotation because it was a gamble and could go either way with little chance of helping that much, so I ultimately didn't do one.

It's very field dependent - some fields like medicine it is probably unnecessary for most applicants. As mentioned above it can be a tool for an applicant from a smaller school or a DO/IMG to secure a letter from someone more academic/prestigious.

That being said however, although what you're saying is true, I feel like it really shouldn't be (in my opinion). I mean, if I were hiring someone for a job, one person scored a 250 and seemed reasonable in my half-hour interview with them, and someone else scored a 230 but came for a trial month and consistently did a good job in a role that was close to the position they were applying for, I'd be much more inclined to hire the latter as they've proven themselves in what I consider to be a much more concrete way to me directly than someone who tests well and had a couple people write them a LOR with the expectation that if they agreed to write it in the first place, they were probably going to write a strong one.

That's pretty much exactly what does happen. But -
(A) it's not going to take a non-competitive applicant or a marginal applicant and move them to the top of the list
(B) I think students underestimate how hard it is to actually "wow" people on an away rotation.

 

[tiedyeddog]

You have 7000 posts and have been here for six years.

It's not like this is an obscure point. I've seen this mentioned dozens of times. Or you could have asked for advice prior to scheduling your aways.

I understand the stupidity of it in retrospect. I have seriously never seen this come up before.

I get it, just because you have never read the law doesn't mean you are then immune to the law. I am not blaming anyone but myself for not thinking this was a possibility. I am just amazed at how wasteful and inefficient this process is in general. It is mind boggling to me that most individual departments don't hand select who they let do Sub-I's. Don't even get me started on the VSAS system itself.

 

[gutonc]

I understand the stupidity of it in retrospect. I have seriously never seen this come up before.

I get it, just because you have never read the law doesn't mean you are then immune to the law. I am not blaming anyone but myself for not thinking this was a possibility. I am just amazed at how wasteful and inefficient this process is in general. It is mind boggling to me that most individual departments don't hand select who they let do Sub-I's. Don't even get me started on the VSAS system itself.

Dude...there's something you need to understand here. Programs barely have the time and personnel to hand select the residents they'll be stuck with for the next 3-7 years.

Believe me when I say they couldn't possibly care less about which visiting brown-nosing gunner med student makes it past whatever minimal screening protocol they have and that they'll have to put up with for a month.

It's basically professional courtesy to faculty at other academic institutions to let visiting students rotate there. Don't pretend it has anything to do with you.

 

[Law2Doc]

Dude...there's something you need to understand here. Programs barely have the time and personnel to hand select the residents they'll be stuck with for the next 3-7 years.

Believe me when I say they couldn't possibly care less about which visiting brown-nosing gunner med student makes it past whatever minimal screening protocol they have and that they'll have to put up with for a month.

It's basically professional courtesy to faculty at other academic institutions to let visiting students rotate there. Don't pretend it has anything to do with you.

I think most PDs do try to interview those auditioners who the faculty or residents reflect positively on. And statistically at the programs I've been at the auditioners tended to have a bit better chance of being ranked well if they were liked and otherwise competitive -- it shows an interest in the program and the ability to not come off badly in an extended span. But as mentioned, an audition rotation won't make someone not competitive competitive. All it really is is an opportunity to sell yourself -- it doesn't suggest a greater interest in the program buying. So I wouldn't consider an audition an invite invitation. But what you do once there can help you on the ranking end IF you do get an interview, because when they discuss applicants and half the committee says "he works hard, is a good guy", that pushes you up a notch or two.