Don't do Flight Surgery

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NavalFS

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This post is to all Pre-meds considering Navy or Navy Medical Students/Interns.

Hello everyone. I am a Naval Flight Surgeon with the Marines. I have been at my duty station for nearly 4 years. I just wanted to provide an honest update as to the state of Navy Operational Medicine because no one ever tells us these things.

Over the past several years, it has become harder to and not as desireable to be a Navy Flight Surgeon. They are severely undermanned (for the past 3 years several of us have had to cover more than 2-3 units with over 800 Marines, deploy, AND work in the Naval Clinic seeing Sick Call for the entire station).

The Joint Selection Board for GME is still a shadowy process. You can have the points needed for selection and not get selected despite having first class fitness reports etc, or you could not have the points to get selected and get selected.

Ultimately, and understandably, the Needs of the Navy supercede anything else. Unfortunately, many times the needs of the Operational Navy and the needs of the Navy Bureau of Medicine are.....different.

In summary, between my clinic duties, following up with Marines from other units (labs, MRI's etc,) counseling for depression, adjustment disorders, anxiety, PTSD, taking care of my Marines, covering 2-3 other units, with detachments to other bases at least 3-4 times a year, and finally overseas deployments, I rarely get a chance to fly. When I do, it is fun and I enjoy it.

I deployed with my unit (a single seat attack platform) from 2010-2011. During that time, the majority of our time was aboard a ship - with limited flight time aboard the CH-46s. I was unable to fullfill my 4 hour a month obligation and recently had to pay back the DOD $1500 in flight pay.

I requested a waiver, but it was denied. See below.

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Just to provide a balance: I had the complete opposite experience. Never had any problems getting flight hours (accrued nearly 200 during 2yrs), worked 3-4 half day clinics a week, and when I deployed had plenty of flight time.

It is variable and based a lot on where you go and to what type of squadron. Want to change squadrons frequently...go with the marines. Want to stay with one squadron or air wing the whole time...go with the Navy.

Not every FS job is great, but in my opinion the average FS job beats the average UMO/ship/fmf/Seabee job
 
Me too, completely opposite experience, although lots of deployments. You get what you make out of it, IMHO. I flew ALOT....but then I was with a Prowler squadron, so lots of opportunity. I was also aggressive with obtaining flight time with other squadrons as well.
 
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I haven't been a flight doc, but I have been a pilot. If you get in with a training command squadron, FRS, test squadron, NSAWC, or multi-crew aircraft squadron you are much more likely to get more flight time because there are extra seats. I can't tell you how many flights I did at NSAWC in a two seater with the rear seat safe for solo. Same for friends who were FRS instructors. Having said that if you just found me in the PR shop and asked to jump in while I was getting dress I wouldn't take you unless we had flown plenty of times in the past. Hang out in the ready room, get to know your pilots, be willing to go to the briefs or at least ask the pilot when he wants you there, and show interest and you'll get flights. When I had open seats I would make a couple of calls to really good dudes, either NFOs or docs, to see if they wanted to trunk or not, but there were plenty of people I didn't call. Having said that, if those same people asked in advance I wouldn't have said no.

If you find yourself with a single seat fighter squadron then flight time is going to be tough and you are going to have to work your own game with other units for flight time. A lot of times with the Navy you are with an air wing and not just one squadron so you have a few squadrons to fly with. If you are based in Lemoore, you don't really have access to your E-2, H-60, or EA-6B/GA-18 squadrons so make the two seat Rhino squadron in your air wing your best friend.
 
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Aggressive = "Hang out in the ready room, get to know your pilots, be willing to go to the briefs or at least ask the pilot when he wants you there, and show interest and you'll get flights."

This advice is spot on....and actually easy to do. Suit up, show up and show interest in the aircrew and your tour as a FS is much better.

Also, take care of your ground guys too. Those folks will take care of you as well!

PTG
 
Aggressive = "Hang out in the ready room, get to know your pilots, be willing to go to the briefs or at least ask the pilot when he wants you there, and show interest and you'll get flights."

This advice is spot on....and actually easy to do. Suit up, show up and show interest in the aircrew and your tour as a FS is much better.

Also, take care of your ground guys too. Those folks will take care of you as well!

PTG

Agree, although it sounds like the OP didn't have much time to hang out in the ready room in between being scutted out by his command at every possible opportunity.
 
Maybe I am wrong but it sounds like OP had a Clem 18 billet.....which is the worst of all FS billets in my opinion....
 
What's clem 18?

Sounds like Harriers. VMA? At least a Cherry Point they have a two seater I've heard.

Claimancy 18.

These are flight surgeon billets that are under a clinic command as opposed to an operational command like a squadron or wing, or a ship. The downside is that the clipboards own you and they don't have any airplanes to fly in. You usually don't get dedicated squadron time (what for, you don't have a squadron?) so getting your flight time can be difficult. The upside used to be that you didn't deploy. That isn't true anymore, and the Navy medical department usually taps Claimancy 18 docs for forward fill of gapped operational billets anywhere they need them.
 
Unable to find 4 hrs a month? You either pissed folks off or didn't try that hard. You could have found your hours but it might not have been convenient.
 
Claimancy 18.

These are flight surgeon billets that are under a clinic command as opposed to an operational command like a squadron or wing, or a ship. The downside is that the clipboards own you and they don't have any airplanes to fly in. You usually don't get dedicated squadron time (what for, you don't have a squadron?) so getting your flight time can be difficult. The upside used to be that you didn't deploy. That isn't true anymore, and the Navy medical department usually taps Claimancy 18 docs for forward fill of gapped operational billets anywhere they need them.

I would assume that's a blue side thing, right. From what I understand green side tends to staff with fight surgeons a bit thicker.

I deployed green side, but I was never a GMO.
 
honest update as to the state of Navy Operational Medicine because no one ever tells us these things.

You didn't get the memo??? Obviously you haven't figured it out yet, but you're supposed to do your own homework, to understand what you're getting yourself into before you sign up for a job. Did somebody explain to you all of the in/outs of medicine before you went to medical school? Or of the military before you decided to join? Of course not, you're expected to do your own homework, nobody is going to give you information on a silver platter.

The best thing to take away from your post here, is that one should look into the GMO and billet before they select to do it (especially if you're given options early in the process), so that you know what you're getting yourself into. And obviously you can't know everything about a job until you're in the thick of it, at which point you just have to adapt and tough through it if it sucks. We all know GMO-land makes for trying times, but if you join the Navy, you're gonna have to do it.

The Joint Selection Board for GME is still a shadowy process. You can have the points needed for selection and not get selected despite having first class fitness reports etc,

You're quite right, fitreps have nothing to do with selection. And quite frankly, they have nothing to do with promotion either, until you're gunning for O-5.

many times the needs of the Operational Navy and the needs of the Navy Bureau of Medicine are.....different.
Well no S sherlock . . . of course the operational needs might be different, and yes, they will trump Bumed needs in some circumstances. The medical corp supports the operational military, not the other way around. You're in a supportive role.

In summary, between my clinic duties, following up with Marines from other units (labs, MRI's etc,) counseling for depression, adjustment disorders, anxiety, PTSD, taking care of my Marines, covering 2-3 other units, with detachments to other bases at least 3-4 times a year, and finally overseas deployments, I rarely get a chance to fly. When I do, it is fun and I enjoy it.
Yeah all that doctorly business can get in the way sometimes. You're didn't join a flying club dude. If you wanna fly, go to a civilian aviation school and get your civilian pilots license. If you wanna fly jets and drop bombs, join the line. Your main function is that of a physician, doing all the things you described above.
 
You didn't get the memo??? Obviously you haven't figured it out yet, but you're supposed to do your own homework, to understand what you're getting yourself into before you sign up for a job. Did somebody explain to you all of the in/outs of medicine before you went to medical school? Or of the military before you decided to join? Of course not, you're expected to do your own homework, nobody is going to give you information on a silver platter.

The best thing to take away from your post here, is that one should look into the GMO and billet before they select to do it (especially if you're given options early in the process), so that you know what you're getting yourself into. And obviously you can't know everything about a job until you're in the thick of it, at which point you just have to adapt and tough through it if it sucks. We all know GMO-land makes for trying times, but if you join the Navy, you're gonna have to do it.

You're quite right, fitreps have nothing to do with selection. And quite frankly, they have nothing to do with promotion either, until you're gunning for O-5.

Well no S sherlock . . . of course the operational needs might be different, and yes, they will trump Bumed needs in some circumstances. The medical corp supports the operational military, not the other way around. You're in a supportive role.

Yeah all that doctorly business can get in the way sometimes. You're didn't join a flying club dude. If you wanna fly, go to a civilian aviation school and get your civilian pilots license. If you wanna fly jets and drop bombs, join the line. Your main function is that of a physician, doing all the things you described above.

Right, students should do their homework using resources like SDN. Not sure what impetus people will have to come here and share their experiences though if we're obnoxious pricks to them.
 
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You didn't get the memo??? Obviously you haven't figured it out yet, but you're supposed to do your own homework, to understand what you're getting yourself into before you sign up for a job. Did somebody explain to you all of the in/outs of medicine before you went to medical school? Or of the military before you decided to join? Of course not, you're expected to do your own homework, nobody is going to give you information on a silver platter.

The best thing to take away from your post here, is that one should look into the GMO and billet before they select to do it (especially if you're given options early in the process), so that you know what you're getting yourself into. And obviously you can't know everything about a job until you're in the thick of it, at which point you just have to adapt and tough through it if it sucks. We all know GMO-land makes for trying times, but if you join the Navy, you're gonna have to do it.



You're quite right, fitreps have nothing to do with selection. And quite frankly, they have nothing to do with promotion either, until you're gunning for O-5.


Well no S sherlock . . . of course the operational needs might be different, and yes, they will trump Bumed needs in some circumstances. The medical corp supports the operational military, not the other way around. You're in a supportive role.


Yeah all that doctorly business can get in the way sometimes. You're didn't join a flying club dude. If you wanna fly, go to a civilian aviation school and get your civilian pilots license. If you wanna fly jets and drop bombs, join the line. Your main function is that of a physician, doing all the things you described above.

I particularly like when a medical student who has zero medical practice or GMO experience gives the ol' 411 to someone who, if perhaps not 100% in the know about things operational is at least being there and doing that. It gives these pages that special something.

Flying while at a clinic command without ready opportunities from a home squadron is not much fun as a flight surgeon. It takes planning and sometimes luck to find a flight.

To the OP: you could do worse than to get deployed TAD, hopefully to a place where people fly Navy airplanes.
 
Maybe "Dr Metal" is no longer a medical student. And maybe earned that "Dr" title.

Does sound like a wind bag.

To the OP, hope things look up for you.

Helping Marines. That's what we do.
 
You didn't get the memo??? Obviously you haven't figured it out yet, but you're supposed to do your own homework, to understand what you're getting yourself into before you sign up for a job. Did somebody explain to you all of the in/outs of medicine before you went to medical school? Or of the military before you decided to join? Of course not, you're expected to do your own homework, nobody is going to give you information on a silver platter.

The best thing to take away from your post here, is that one should look into the GMO and billet before they select to do it (especially if you're given options early in the process), so that you know what you're getting yourself into. And obviously you can't know everything about a job until you're in the thick of it, at which point you just have to adapt and tough through it if it sucks. We all know GMO-land makes for trying times, but if you join the Navy, you're gonna have to do it.



You're quite right, fitreps have nothing to do with selection. And quite frankly, they have nothing to do with promotion either, until you're gunning for O-5.


Well no S sherlock . . . of course the operational needs might be different, and yes, they will trump Bumed needs in some circumstances. The medical corp supports the operational military, not the other way around. You're in a supportive role.


Yeah all that doctorly business can get in the way sometimes. You're didn't join a flying club dude. If you wanna fly, go to a civilian aviation school and get your civilian pilots license. If you wanna fly jets and drop bombs, join the line. Your main function is that of a physician, doing all the things you described above.

Give the guy a break, man. He's simply airing a few grievances among friends regarding his being stuck in an unenviable billet. You were a SWO in a former life right? You ought to know all about that.

Furthermore, it is pretty obvious that he is taking care of things on the medical side and not neglecting his patients. I don't know anything about claimancy 18 billets but that seems like a crappy job GMO-wise without the usual perks that make such an existence tolerable.

By the way, those of us in operational squadron billets are in "the line" just as much as any other Officer. Same deployments, same training rotations, same long hours and command frustrations, same PT requirements. That's one of the things that really pisses me off, when line Officers who usually happen to be supply or support guys look down their noses at me because I went to a shorter OBC and got a direct commission. I'm stuck in the same *****ed up operational merry-go round as them, and last time I checked medical works every day in Garrison, whereas when I stroll down to the shops or headquarters elements I see a lot of lounge lizards with glazed eyes who just got back from their 4 hour "lunch" and are now patiently waiting for the clock to strike 1600.

OP: Sorry to hear you're having a tough time getting in the air. I've been a flight doc for more than 3 years now. Thankfully I have only a few months left to go before I can finally start my residency on the civilian side.

Flying helicopters is the one really cool thing I get to do in my downtime. My job, which consists mostly of hand-holding, paperwork and administrivia would be much more frustrating without that release. I can't believe they made you reimburse that flight pay. Did someone have a hard-on for you? I had thought those waivers were usually granted except in unusual circumstances.

Keep your chin up and I hope that you will soon be granted a deserved reprieve to pursue your civilian residency of choice. As I move closer to my EAS date I have become much less excited about all the "military stuff" I experience on the operational side, even flying is nothing more than a fun distraction. I am ready to be a Physician again, and it is clear that my goals and those of the Service are diametrically opposed in that regard.

-61N
 
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Summed up: "you shouldn't come here and tell people about your experiences so they can use this site as a resource because...ummm...you should have gone and done your research with some...ummm...resource". You have a Heller-esque mentality that ensures you will make admiral one day. BZ2u
 
Right, students should do their homework using resources like SDN. Not sure what impetus people will have to come here and share their experiences though if we're obnoxious pricks to them.

Agreed with the SDN part. I've done my homework. I personally want nothing to do with flight surgery (not interested in playing that 'good ol boys' game, pretending to be a pilot, and I have a mild fear of heights!). Gimme a nice cumfy amphib or send me ground poundin with the Marines. That's based on my own research, much of it done here on SDN (where there already exists plenty of shared experiences, just have to search). Now that's just my own personal preference. Others who do the same homework may arrive at a different preference.

Give the guy a break, man. He's simply airing a few grievances among friends regarding his being stuck in an unenviable billet. You were a SWO in a former life right? You ought to know all about that.

No, was not a SWO. Fair enough. It just bugs me when people log on here to complain about nonsensical things.

Complaining about an unfair infringement on your personal life (for instance, having to deploy many times before some of your colleagues have even gone once) . . . . that's a fair complaint.

Complaining about the ways in which the military makes your job unnecessarily harder (AHTLA, poor nursing/tech support, etc) . . .that's a fair complaint.

Complaining about not getting enough flying time b/c you weren't willing to chum up with the other flyboys in your squadron . . . . not a valid complaint. This is the silly game you gotta play, if you want that experience. You should know that before taking the job.

Summed up: "you shouldn't come here and tell people about your experiences so they can use this site as a resource because...ummm...you should have gone and done your research with some...ummm...resource". You have a Heller-esque mentality that ensures you will make admiral one day. BZ2u

No, you can come here an post whatever you like, and others have the right to form a reaction and respond. That's how a forum works. Thanks for promoting me, no intention of making Admiral, I don't love the Navy that much. And my condolences to your Bruins, was hoping for their repeat.
 
In summary, between my clinic duties, following up with Marines from other units (labs, MRI's etc,) counseling for depression, adjustment disorders, anxiety, PTSD, taking care of my Marines, covering 2-3 other units, with detachments to other bases at least 3-4 times a year, and finally overseas deployments, I rarely get a chance to fly. When I do, it is fun and I enjoy it.

Umm, so being a doctor interfered with you're being a pilot? I'm sorry you are frustrated, but the military paid your way through medical school so you could do doctor ****, not fly around like Maverick.

I deployed with my unit (a single seat attack platform) from 2010-2011. During that time, the majority of our time was aboard a ship - with limited flight time aboard the CH-46s.

That would be called a MEU. That is what MEU's do. If you were on the Bataan Death Cruise, I'm sorry.

I was unable to fullfill my 4 hour a month obligation and recently had to pay back the DOD $1500 in flight pay.
The Navy is definitely cracking down on special pays, but I'm surprised they made you pay back flight pay. I could see them shutting it off, maybe. Your PSD must be real d*cks.
 
The Navy is definitely cracking down on special pays, but I'm surprised they made you pay back flight pay. I could see them shutting it off, maybe. Your PSD must be real d*cks.

this isn't his psd this is Big Navy taking the money back. Those on conditional ACIP are now required to turn in flight hour verification to pers and if it isn't up to regs you get to pay back your flight pay.

I may have had 200 hours in 2yrs, but because they weren't in the "right" months I also got to pay some money back.
 
I knew lazy NFOs that were forced to pay back flight pay. At my command in 2006 the 2 star CO happened upon a conversation about how many empty back seats there are in the early morning and late evening flights. Obviously the pilots are required to be there, but the NFOs would frequently bail. He stopped giving flight time waivers for NFOs who didn't meet their annual mins after that.
 
I knew lazy NFOs that were forced to pay back flight pay. At my command in 2006 the 2 star CO happened upon a conversation about how many empty back seats there are in the early morning and late evening flights. Obviously the pilots are required to be there, but the NFOs would frequently bail. He stopped giving flight time waivers for NFOs who didn't meet their annual mins after that.

See, I just don't get that. I just don't get it. You're flying! How cool is that? Why would someone be so lazy or laissez-faire to not do it? Is it because their wings have two anchors instead of one?

A comparison would be me not doing procedures because they take time. What? I LOVE doing procedures, and I love my job, and realize that not everyone has had the opportunities or experiences that I have. I wouldn't sit back and not do the procedures, or only if they were in the mid-day.

These aren't staff pukes; these are line officers, with a star on the sleeve - not a millrind or an oak leaf. That's your JOB, and it's a cool-ass job to have. And, out at sea (presuming you were), what else is there to do?
 
this isn't his psd this is Big Navy taking the money back. Those on conditional ACIP are now required to turn in flight hour verification to pers and if it isn't up to regs you get to pay back your flight pay.

I may have had 200 hours in 2yrs, but because they weren't in the "right" months I also got to pay some money back.

So, there is no banking of hours? I know back in my USAF days, the flight docs could take a 12hr ride in a C-5, E-3, or some such, and cover three months of flight pay. Is there nothing similar in the Navy? Now, I'm a dive guy, so all our dives are logged in DJRS. But I haven't had anyone from Big Navy (or anywhere else) knocking down my door to validate my dive pay.
 
I had a very different flight surgeon experience than most people here and my billet defied most of the stereotypes associated with it. I am currently in a claimancy 18 billet. I have two squadrons (albeit small) to which I am responsible. I have larger load of aviators to which I am also responsible who are not under DIFOPS. I still get 50/50 squadron and clinic time and my command has reclama'd me twice for IA taskers. I believe that I have the best of both worlds in that my clinical skills have not gone totally to hell, I have learned a lot about running a military medicine clinic as a lowly O3, and I still get plenty of time to be with my two squadrons and fly when I want.

My point is each flight surgeon billet is very unique. My base is unique as it stands already and each flight surgeon there has a very different job than the man or woman next to him or her. All stories are valid when it comes to the Navy FS community because the one thing I have learned as I enter my last year as a FS and my last year in the Navy is that no billet is typical.

While I completely empathize with the original poster's comments (and realize I have had one of the most fortunate of careers in the Navy in exchange for free medical school) it is silly to have made it as far as he has in the FS community and not expected what he is currently dealing with. I go to work everyday prepared for my CO to tell me I am in clinic 5 days a week or that they are IAing me to Afghanistan. I just what anyone who is interested in flight medicine to know no experience is run of the mill.
 
Umm, so being a doctor interfered with you're being a pilot? I'm sorry you are frustrated, but the military paid your way through medical school so you could do doctor ****, not fly around like Maverick.

I agree with this sentiment to an extent, however by reg the flying + other misc operational unit duties are as much a part of a Flight Surgeon's job as doing 'doctor ****'. One could certainly argue that the whole concept of flight surgery is an anachronism in today's military, but it is what it is. I hate it too when I meet some ancillary member of the flying community who consider themselves pilots by association and shirk clinical responsibilities (on the AF side RAMs are notorious for this), but to me it sounds like the OP was pulling his weight in clinic and was taken advantage of by the system, which we all know happens.

Anyway, the predominant themes on this board are that 1) very few of us knew what we were getting into and 2) whatever we're 'into' can change on the whim of a commander, the ops tempo, or some new brain-dead policy letter. Which brings me back to the point that when someone tries to illustrate that fact with their own personal story, it just doesn't help anybody to be snarky and say, "Welp, guess you shoulda known better."
 
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