DO's and Specialties

[cfdavid]

Hello, there. I know there have been some other similar posts, but bear with me.

I've heard, among FP, IM, OB/Gyn, etc., that EM is an attractive specialty for DO's. Why is that? How does that work? Or is it simply a function of good residency positions available for DO's in that particular specialty. I know the whole DO-primary care thing, but why EM as well?

I volunteer in the ER at a non-Osteopathic hospital in a Detroit suburb, and the director of EM is a DO. So are about 50% of the DO's in the ER.(minimum, as it seems like they may be a clear majority, but I'm only there on Friday nights) Also, there are quite a few DO residents.

Being a Michiganian, there are many DO's in the state. Also, I did undergrad (8 yrs ago!) at Michigan State Univ. and they have both an MD and DO school there. I'm sure that's why Michigan has so many DO's. BUT, I've been asking the DO's in the ER where they went to school, and only the director went to MSUCOM. The others are from out of state DO schools (Cali, Penn etc).

Any insight? My experiences with the DO's have been incredible to say the least. So down to earth and cool as hell, to a doc. But, the MD's are good too, it's just that my interactions have been mainly with the DO's.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, and I KNOW THIS IS A SMALL SAMPLING POOL, but of the docs I've interacted with, I'd say the DO's seem more approachable, and generally more happy to be doing what they're doing. One MD seems arrogant (a consultant), another is a flamboyant individual that wears club clothes, has an earing, and bleached out hair (an IM consultant) and is very unhappy with medicine (and it shows). One MD cardiologist that was called in was totally cool, and a few others seem down to earth and approachable. But, I have yet to interact with a jerky DO.

It just seems that in my very limited experience, the DO's seem more approachable, happier, and down to earth. As a whole.

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[OSUdoc08]

Hello, there. I know there have been some other similar posts, but bear with me.

I've heard, among FP, IM, OB/Gyn, etc., that EM is an attractive specialty for DO's. Why is that? How does that work? Or is it simply a function of good residency positions available for DO's in that particular specialty. I know the whole DO-primary care thing, but why EM as well?

I volunteer in the ER at a non-Osteopathic hospital in a Detroit suburb, and the director of EM is a DO. So are about 50% of the DO's in the ER.(minimum, as it seems like they may be a clear majority, but I'm only there on Friday nights) Also, there are quite a few DO residents.

Being a Michiganian, there are many DO's in the state. Also, I did undergrad (8 yrs ago!) at Michigan State Univ. and they have both an MD and DO school there. I'm sure that's why Michigan has so many DO's. BUT, I've been asking the DO's in the ER where they went to school, and only the director went to MSUCOM. The others are from out of state DO schools (Cali, Penn etc).

Any insight? My experiences with the DO's have been incredible to say the least. So down to earth and cool as hell, to a doc. But, the MD's are good too, it's just that my interactions have been mainly with the DO's.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, and I KNOW THIS IS A SMALL SAMPLING POOL, but of the docs I've interacted with, I'd say the DO's seem more approachable, and generally more happy to be doing what they're doing. One MD seems arrogant (a consultant), another is a flamboyant individual that wears club clothes, has an earing, and bleached out hair (an IM consultant) and is very unhappy with medicine (and it shows). One MD cardiologist that was called in was totally cool, and a few others seem down to earth and approachable. But, I have yet to interact with a jerky DO.

It just seems that in my very limited experience, the DO's seem more approachable, happier, and down to earth. As a whole.

1. EM is considered primary care in many states
2. EM is readily available through AOA residencies
3. ACGME EM residencies readily accept DO's

 

[medicine1]

I should imagine people that go into medicine having misconceptions and illogical expectations will be unsatisfied and unhappy overall. I don't know if there really is a difference between DOs and MDs when it comes to happiness per se. Although, I do see a lot of MDs who went to med. school primarily to make mega bucks. I believe that most DOs follow a deeper philosophy in Total Wellness and Health, and look at the person/patient as a whole. Plus, DO schools look for people that are smart and personable. MD schools tend to choose people based heavily on grades/MCAT/Ethnicity/sex/social status...character and personality are not necessarily as important, nor really looked into. Obviously people that graduate from MIT are going to be smart, but poor in their social skills. This holds true in the medical world too. Some MD schools told me that I didn't have a chance because of my social status, ethnicity, and sex (middle-class/white boy). MD schools tend to be more discriminatory, and by the Supreme Court ruling several years back, schools are allowed to discrimate:

In Memoriam
Fourteenth Amendment - June 23, 2003

In a weak and fractured decision today, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that racial quotas may continue at the University of Michigan and, by extension, at all other colleges and universities in states which have not specifically outlawed such quotas.

On June 23, 2003 the Supremes outlawed the explicit racial point system in Michigan's undergraduate admissions, but they supported the law school's use of race to grant advantage to some skin colors and disadvantage to other skin colors.
http://www.adversity.net/UMich/MIMainFrame.htm

I would definitely be more satisfied knowing that I saved a life, and have made a larger impact on one's life as a whole. DOs don's simply treat and look at the superficial symptoms. DOs delve deeper into the root causes of a disease.
I would feel better knowing that I ultimately changed someone's life for the better, than simply prescribing a drug that masks the symptoms.

 

[EMTLizzy]

I should imagine people that go into medicine having misconceptions and illogical expectations will be unsatisfied and unhappy overall. I don't know if there really is a difference between DOs and MDs when it comes to happiness per se. Although, I do see a lot of MDs who went to med. school primarily to make mega bucks. I believe that most DOs follow a deeper philosophy in Total Wellness and Health, and look at the person/patient as a whole. Plus, DO schools look for people that are smart and personable. MD schools tend to choose people based heavily on grades/MCAT/Ethnicity/sex/social status...character and personality are not necessarily as important, nor really looked into. Obviously people that graduate from MIT are going to be smart, but poor in their social skills. This holds true in the medical world too. Some MD schools told me that I didn't have a chance because I of my social status, ethnicity, and sex (middle-class/white boy). MD schools tend to be more discriminatory, and by the Supreme Court ruling several years back, schools are allowed to discrimate.
I would definitely be more satisfied knowing that I saved a life, and have made a larger impact on one's life as a whole. DOs don's simply treat and look at the superficial symptoms. DOs delve deeper into the root causes of a disease.
I would feel better knowing that I ultimately changed someone's life for the better, than simply prescribing a drug that masks the symptoms.

And this one time...at band camp....

 

[DORoe]

I should imagine people that go into medicine having misconceptions and illogical expectations will be unsatisfied and unhappy overall. I don't know if there really is a difference between DOs and MDs when it comes to happiness per se. Although, I do see a lot of MDs who went to med. school primarily to make mega bucks. I believe that most DOs follow a deeper philosophy in Total Wellness and Health, and look at the person/patient as a whole. Plus, DO schools look for people that are smart and personable. MD schools tend to choose people based heavily on grades/MCAT/Ethnicity/sex/social status...character and personality are not necessarily as important, nor really looked into. Obviously people that graduate from MIT are going to be smart, but poor in their social skills. This holds true in the medical world too. Some MD schools told me that I didn't have a chance because I of my social status, ethnicity, and sex (middle-class/white boy). MD schools tend to be more discriminatory, and by the Supreme Court ruling several years back, schools are allowed to discrimate.
I would definitely be more satisfied knowing that I saved a life, and have made a larger impact on one's life as a whole. DOs don's simply treat and look at the superficial symptoms. DOs delve deeper into the root causes of a disease.
I would feel better knowing that I ultimately changed someone's life for the better, than simply prescribing a drug that masks the symptoms.

Are you kidding me?!? Do you really believe that MD's are only in medicine for money, have little or no social skills, and the MD schools are discriminatory! That is just plain crazy. You want respect from MD's and other members of the healthcare community, but in one post you disrespect and degrade them. How is this post constructive in any way. I could understand if you made a post that highlighted the benefits of attending a DO school such as increased palpatory skills, OMM, and the generally less competetive nature of the schools, but to insult allopathic physicians does nothing but give those that already don't like us more fuel for their rhetoric do you not understand this? Quite frankly this post was offensive and immature.

 

[medicine1]

Of course it is true that not all MDs go into medical school for money. I am saying I have met quite a few MDs that were in it for the money, and they turned out dissatisfied, and unhappy. Anybody, whether it be DO or MD that goes into medicine for just money will lose in the end. And of course OMM, primary care focus, etc. can feel very rewarding in the end. We could talk about some of the factors that DO schools look for...I think this would help us with our demarcation between MD and DO personalities and overall choices in the primary care field of medicine.

 

[DORoe]

Of course it is true that not all MDs go into medical school for money. I am saying I have met quite a few MDs that were in it for the money, and they turned out dissatisfied, and unhappy. Anybody, whether it be DO or MD that goes into medicine for just money will lose in the end. And of course OMM, primary care focus, etc. can feel very rewarding in the end. We could talk about some of the factors that DO schools look for...I think this would help us with our demarcation between MD and DO personalities and overall choices in the primary care field of medicine.

So because you have met a few MD's that were in it for money and were unhappy you feel confident that you can make broad generalizations about their profession? I have read your posts in the past and have found them to be overall pretty good. I can tell that you feel very strongly for the osteopathic profession and i commend you for that. In fact this second post has some very good discussion topics. I was pointing out that insulting people is not the way to further the cause. I will agree with you that you can't go into medicine for the money, but let's not kid ourselves who would do this for minimum wage? You should expect to be able to live well if you have spent the time, effort, and a large portion of your life on this career. I don't care what you do if your primary goal is money you will probably be unhappy. There are a lot of people stuck in jobs and careers that they hate because they put money over happiness.

Now to address your second point about what DO schools look for. I have time thinking that the applicants are all that much different at a DO school than an MD school. I think that a DO school wants to have students with great numbers and MD schools don't want students with malignant personalities. We often fall into the trap of DO schools look beyond the numbers and that MD schools are only out to get people with high stats with little regard to personality. I do believe that DO schools are more willing to "take a chance" on a student, but I don't care how great of a person you are if you have a 2.1 with a 13 MCAT you are not going to get in. I also believe that at the vast majority of MD schools if you have an absolute terrible personality and are a sociopath you will probably not get in even with great numbers. I think that often we see ourselves as somehow more personable and likable than our MD counterparts which is simply untrue. I would argue that your average MD student is not that much different than a DO student. Again we can talk about the advantages vs. disadvantages of an osteopathic education, but to speak of intrinsic differences in the students seems a bit dishonest to me. Like you, I often pontificated about the difference in the approach to patients and the differences in philosophy at one time, but now I have come to see that we aren't that different. Like I have already stated we can speak of the increased palpatory skills, use of OMM as an adjunct treatment modality, and the cooperative nature of the schools and students as true differences between us but that is only a result of the differences in the way the schools are set-up and a function of the education we recieve not a difference in personality per se.

 

[medicine1]

I appreciate your input DORoe. Thanks!

 

[JohnDO]

I've heard, among FP, IM, OB/Gyn, etc., that EM is an attractive specialty for DO's. Why is that? How does that work? Or is it simply a function of good residency positions available for DO's in that particular specialty. I know the whole DO-primary care thing, but why EM as well?

It's probably a combination of reasons. Many DO schools state that they place emphasis on primary care, and thus attract students who are interested in primary care. As you suggested, there are a lot of osteopathic residency programs in primary care. Also, ACGME (MD) primary care residency programs tend to be more receptive to osteopathic students than say ACGME neurosurgery programs. This is not as much of an issue as it used to be, but the allopathic primary care residencies were the first ones to open up to DOs.

But as to your overall point, your sampling size is indeed small. It's not really fair to apply it to MDs and DOs as a whole. There are many unhappy/egotistical DOs, and many unhappy/egotistical MDs. My experience has been very similar to yours, but again I was only exposed to a small subsection of the population.

Are you planning on applying to medical school (or have you already applied)?

 

[timtye78]

Some of the discussion here is absolutely silly. If you go through your careers believing MDs are in it for the money, I show you five DOs who are the same. The same goes for the philosophy of patient care. Many DOs have applied to MD school, and many MDs have applied to DO schools-guys, we all come from the same general pool of applicants.

Don't trust your initial perceptions, even though we are get them, as you go through, the best way to go is to assume the best in people at first, then let each person add or subtract from that. If you try to put MDs in boxes, then they will do the same for you later.

I think personality, professionalism, empathy are all things that are obtained independent of medical training philosophy or initials behind your name.
Unless you move to another planet, you will either work with or refer patients to MDs or you may even hope to get referrals from MDs, so you might as well just try to get along!

My two cents!

 

[cfdavid]

Are you planning on applying to medical school (or have you already applied)?

I'll be applying this summer. I take the MCAT in 7 weeks. I mentioned I'm from Michigan, so I'll apply to all in state MD schools, and of course MSUCOM. Not sure what other out of state DO schools to apply to. Most likely ones that aren't state chartered (like MSUCOM), and that have reasonable tuition fees.

 

[Vince]

The stuff about MD's going in to it for the money is ridiculous, as well as any suggestion that MD's are more personable than DO's. Although DO schools do tend to go for more non-traditional applicants, I don't think that always means they are more personable, etc.

I think Michigan is a DO friendly state, has a great DO school and lots of programs so you see more there. Consultants might not be in the greatest mood coming down to the ER for consults. I think that in general ER docs are more personable regardless of their medical education, and there is a wide variey of personalities at different hospitals.

Once you get into medical school and start rotating at different hospitals you will see wide varieties.

I do agree with one of the above posters about many ACGME residencies taking DO's, and competitive allopathic residencies are harder to come by as a D.O.

 

[JohnDO]

I'll be applying this summer. I take the MCAT in 7 weeks. I mentioned I'm from Michigan, so I'll apply to all in state MD schools, and of course MSUCOM. Not sure what other out of state DO schools to apply to. Most likely ones that aren't state chartered (like MSUCOM), and that have reasonable tuition fees.

Oooh, good luck with the MCAT! Getting nervous yet? I wish I lived in michigan, I would have gone to MSUCOM in a heartbeat. Their out of state tuition is just too much for me though. good luck!

 

[frank51]

I do agree with one of the above posters about many ACGME residencies taking DO's, and competitive allopathic residencies are harder to come by as a D.O.

Sad but true, we take the same classes, with the same intensity/difficulty, some of us take USMLE in addition to COMLEX, yet when it comes to difficult residencies, we are at a disadvantage. I remember a post on SDN about a D.O student who had made all the right moves, but couldn’t get into a good surgery program.

 

[cfdavid]

Oooh, good luck with the MCAT! Getting nervous yet? I wish I lived in michigan, I would have gone to MSUCOM in a heartbeat. Their out of state tuition is just too much for me though. good luck!

Truthfully, I'm looking forward to taking it. I'm a non-trad, and it's a big milestone for me (for everyone really). I still have a lot of preparing, but I can get a lot done in 7 weeks. I think I'll do o.k. We'll see.

Regarding the point made about consultants coming down to the ER; good point.

In general, and this of course applies to MD's, I feel that the more "heart" a person puts into a profession (the more they really want it), the better they will be at that given career. Not to say that the person that slides right into Harvard Med, is bound not to appreciate the profession etc. But, the more passion a person has, the better a physician they will make.

It's the difference between the FP that goes the extra mile, and the one that does not. The docs that think about their patients at home, and 'wonder' about a goofy symptom or condition, perhaps do some research or after-work consulting, are the one's that make the real difference. And med schools do not test for these kinds of attributes.

 

[cfdavid]

Oooh, good luck with the MCAT! Getting nervous yet? I wish I lived in michigan, I would have gone to MSUCOM in a heartbeat. Their out of state tuition is just too much for me though. good luck!

Yeah, MSUCOM seems like a really great school. I have an old buddy that I recently called up. He went there, and loved it. He said he met so many neat people that he's still friends with. He said he enjoyed going to class, and hanging out with his pals (mostly studying). It seems like they have a lot of comraderie at that school. Thanks for the 'good luck'.