Double standard on clinical rotations...watch out!!

Discussion in 'Clinical Rotations' started by carddr, Jul 17, 2002.

  1. carddr

    carddr Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2002
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    0
    :p
    Most of you all ready know this, but I found out a little late...an allopathic student doing rotations at an Osetopathic hospital may or maynot get credit for said rotations for State licensing purposes. Best to do your homework here and find out before you match in a state whether or not this is the case.

    However, here is the double standard...an Osteopathic student will receive credit (don't know of a state where they won't) for his/her rotations whether it is an Osetopathic or allopathic program.

    Would love to know the logic behind all this nonsense. Does it mean DO hospitals are not qualified to train, can't train as well as MD hospitals, why the double standards.. Seems antiquated to me. Show me the difference or is this just another idiot's version of elitism? State licensing boards are making these kinds of decisions and opening themselves up for full blown lawsuits. One is going on in CA right now.

    Pray tell me why is Va Tech building a first-class DO hosp. to the tune of 30mil, if only for DO and no MDs' allowed(if they want credit for licensing purposes.????).
     
  2. Note: SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic!
    Staff Member Administrator Physician Faculty Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 15+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2000
    Messages:
    38,534
    Likes Received:
    26,711
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Its happening here in PA (no suprise, its a real pain sometimes to get licensed here). Heard tell of an allopathic student who did most of his clinicals at osteo hospitals - PA is refusing to accept those rotations as eligible for licensure (38 weeks!!) :eek:
     
  4. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic!
    Staff Member Administrator Physician Faculty Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 15+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2000
    Messages:
    38,534
    Likes Received:
    26,711
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    BTW, moving to Clinical Rotations Forum where it will find more interested parties...
     
  5. DOnut

    DOnut Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2001
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Wow that's absolutely crazy!!!!! Why do you think such a double standard exists?? I mean by now everyone should be able to agree the DO's and MD's practice very similar medicine. There should be no reason for that type of nonsense. Elitism is the best word to describe this. I'm finding more and more minute differences between DO's and MD's. For example, in Pennsylvania, a nurse practitioner can not prescribe medication when working for a DO, but can when working for an MD. This will cause NP's to not want to work for a DO physician. Similarly, if MD students are not receiving credit for rotations at primarily DO hospitals, then this will lead MD students to believe that the DO hospital is inferior in some way.

    This sounds like a Plessy vs. Ferguson issue. "Lets say that the DO's are equal.....but separate."

    Well like you said, the state boards are setting themselves up for a massive lawsuit. We'll see what the courts say.
     
  6. droliver

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Messages:
    1,556
    Likes Received:
    72
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    I don't know why people are surprised that a situation like this would occur. Osetepathic medicine has a completely different set of accredidation begining with acceptance to school, curriculum, standards & practices, liscencing, etc... I would feel uneasy about automatically rubber-stamping osteopathic experiences for allopathic med school credit without more scrutiny. This reflects on a failure of the student or possibly the student & the med school (in the scenario Kimberli describes) for closely examing the eligibility of these clinical rotations for academic credit.
     
  7. carddr

    carddr Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2002
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    0
    No excuse but sometimes you are so involved with the process you forget the bottom line...and in some cases the med. school makes the arrangements for you and you comply.

    Next, did I miss something here? Where was race mentioned? Could that be Plessy vs Ferguson? if so, I agree, bad comparsion.

    Also, I do believe as the market demands the two parallel lines of training are beginning to converge and the powers that be are going to be forced to re-visit this issue. Take the valuable conclusions from both appoarches and wed the two, o la, the perfect med. doctor.

    While I have to admit I am not up on DO's requirements, training, etc. I do know for a fact the public is beginning to recognize and seek treatment from osetopathic hospitals, and they are continuing to open new schools and hospitals that surprise many. Therefor, one would have to conclude the demand for such is a reality. All I'm saying is the licensing boards may have to reevluate their assumptions,that DO training hosptials are not meeting their standards of training requirements. Hate to see this get tied up in our legal system and if it continues that is exactly where it is heading. Any gung-ho attorney out there ready for the challenge and the opportunity this presents???
     
  8. I don't think the intent is to discriminate or to make a grand statement about the quality of osteopathic hospitals. It's not really a question of whether or not the rotations are acceptable for licensure purposes either. If they weren't acceptable, then osteopathic students wouldn't be receiving credit for them as well.

    A similar situation exists with regards to board certification. DOs can become board certified FPs or Orthopods via osteopathic or allopathic residencies; however, MDs can only become BC/BE through allopathic residencies.
     
  9. vietcongs

    vietcongs Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2000
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why can't we all just get along?
     
  10. X Ray Vision

    X Ray Vision Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2002
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    IMHO ...

    It's all bureaucratic BS. If it really was important, it wouldn't vary so much from state to state. Just let us doctors practice medicine.
     
  11. UHS2002

    UHS2002 Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 1999
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    0
    As a DO doing an allopathic residency, I beg to differ from the statement above.

    1) For standards of acceptance into med school, this subject was beaten worse than the proverbial "dead horse", but here I go again- to gain admission into a DO school you need a 4 year degree, you need to take the MCAT, you need good grades and a good score, etc, etc. The difference in MCAT scores and grades is very school dependent. I would say that, on average, DO schools accept applicants with 0. 2 - 0.3 points lower GPA, and MCATS in the mid 20's. Again, this is school dependent. There are several MD schools with admission averages lower than many DO schools. Personally, I attended a DO school with a MCAT of 29 and a GPA of 3.7, which is pretty average entrance stats for many MD schools. Conversely, I was about 10 years older than your average MD student and had a family and a career before entering medical school and applied during a year when application to med school were at a all time high.

    2) Curriculum. Yes, there are differences in curriculum, which boil down to DO students having 250 more class hours than their MD counterparts, because of the Osteopathic Manipulation requirement. Least you think this comes at the expense of other subjects such as path or pharm, you would be sorely mistaken. This comes at the expense of extra study time. DO students are in class, on average from 8 am to 4-5 pm every day, for the two pre-clinical years.

    3) Standards and practices. I can't even begin to imagine what do you mean by that. KC is a pretty integrated city as DO/MDs are concerned and I challenge you to tell them apart from one another in the wards or in the private practice setting.

    4) Licensing - I agree with you that there are some differences there, but they depend more on what you specialize in and where. As I mentioned, I am in an allopathic residency program, in a state where there is only one licensing board for both MDs and DOs. Unless you are in PA, WV, MI, FL and OK, which have separate licensing boards, the licensing requirements are the same for both MDs and DOs. When I got my medical license, it came from the same State Board of Healing Arts which issued the license to the MD residents in my program. When I take my specialty boards, I will be taking the exact same boards as they will. I beg your pardon, but I fail to see the difference. The problem with the individual in question on this tread, is that the events took place in PA, one of the only 5 states which happen to have separate Boards of Healing Arts . I assure you the reason for that is purely political, rather than a matter of competency or qualifications. And the ones pushing for the separation, unfotunately, are the "old guard" DOs. Just as when the AMA wanted to unify both MDs and DOs under the same organization...there are lots of people out there afraid of loosing their "status".

    6) Lastly, I will readily concede the point that many osteopathic hospitals and residency programs are not ideal places to train, mostly because they do not have the volume and variety of pathology to provide the experiences needed for residents or students. I would venture to say, however, that this is true of many smaller allopathic community programs. If you do not believe this to be the case, just go to Scutwork and read some of the reviews of many allopathic programs by their residents. By and large, I do believe this to be a weakness of osteopathic education and, as such I have personally decided to pursue an allopathic residency. I also did most of my rotations, as a medical student, at large university hospitals, side by side with allopathic students, and received an Honor grade at 15 out of 19 rotations at these institutions. That certainly made me feel like my curriculum was not different or lacking.The fact that these hospitals were more than willing to have a DO student rotate through their institution, allied with the fact that I was invited to interview at every single allopathic program I applied to, should give some credit to my statement that there isn't much difference in the training DOs and MDs receive these days.
     
  12. Neurogirl

    Neurogirl Resident Extraordinaire
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2000
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    1
    To Darth Vader,

    You stated "your degree actually says something about your intelligence and qualifications"?!?!?!?! You've got to be kidding...right? That's the most ignorant statement I've heard in quite a while! Tell me...just how many DOs have you worked with? I've worked with plenty in both groups (MD and DO) and can tell you that, in general, there isn't ANY difference in intelligence or qualifications.

    To Droliver,

    How did you come to these conclusions? I attended an osteopathic medical school, rotated at both osteopathic and allopathic institutions and am now completing an allopathic residency. Your statements are based on opinion and anecdotal evidence, not fact.

    To Carddr,

    You are correct! It is medical elitism at its most embarrassing extreme.:mad:

    Neurogirl DO, MPH
     
  13. droliver

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Messages:
    1,556
    Likes Received:
    72
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Again - it should not be surprising that similar or competing accrediting organizations do not recognize standards set by each other. Why is this concept so hard to understand? Yeah, the education is similar,etc... but @ the end of the day there are 2 very different organizations governing the allopathic & osteopathic communities. Similar non-accredidation issues go on within medicine all the time with the hodge-podge of "board specialties" that are not recognized by the Amer. Board of Medical Specialties (ie. Plastic Surgery which is recognized vs. "facial" Plastic Surgery which is not).

    There was no criticism of Osteopathy implied there BTW, just pointing out on the # of levels that are seperately audited,reviewed, & accredited (seperately) by each organization.
     

Share This Page