Double Suicide ~ Med Student & Her Mom

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Please stop telling me you disagree; I got it the first time.

There's nothing wrong with that and I understand that you and I feel differently about what is relevant and what is not.

Obviously I would've closed the thread had I felt that this was not a worthwhile discussion but I am somewhat bothered by the fact that you seem to continue to insist that I am trying to stifle discussion.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I had one post in response. Maybe it came up on your phone differently or something? I don't know what you mean by "continue to insist that I am trying to stifle discussion". I did have another post in response to someone else which was not directed at you at all.

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I think much of it is a fascade. Schools are required to offer counseling, but beyond that, how are they addressing the stressors that students have to endure at their school that forces them to seek counseling? Much of the stress, especially during preclinical years, are related to the onslaught of constant tests (I had multiple exams in a week at times in med school) and constant required classes often with little added educational value. On top of that, the culmination of your preclinical years and what will determine your career choice is based on a test you take before you even step foot in the clinic. You are taught to be empathetic to patients in medicine but it's sad that administrations often do not offer that same courtesy to students.
I think this is a very key post. Schools offer counseling services bc I believe it's an LCME requirement not bc they want to. The quality of those services can vary and students are probably so afraid of having any record of it, they go to a psychiatrist outside the system.

The first 2 years have a LOT of exams, covering a lot of material, not necessarily well spaced out, many times within the same week, of which at many schools you are graded in some way to differentiate who is at the top, who is in the middle, and who is at the bottom. Then you take a Step 1 exam, which also does the same with respect to which specialties are still open and which are effectively closed (although the latter can be mitigated by other factors somewhat).

This is all before you even step foot into real clinicals (not the once a week shadowing stuff you might do in the first 2 years). During your entire time, you are told to be empathetic, caring, and professional 100% of the time, while not having the same done to you or have residents/attendings/med school admins who won't necessarily be any of the above.

I think the disconnect between the 2 is what jades students.
 
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I would actually argue otherwise. Although not totally on topic, remembering that these alternate routes exist for those people who aim for something and then have their already existing depression exacerbated by effectively being "shut out" of a specialty they want to go into is very relevant. Being aware of the current medical climate and the relative independence one could have in a field of your choice as something besides a physician could actually be very helpful. Take the young woman above who worked her whole medical school career for a dermatology residency, failed to match and then committed suicide. Even Kaitlyn had, if I remember correctly, taken Step 1 about a month or so before her passing. It's not unreasonable to wonder if her Step 1 score might have had something to do with exacerbating an underlying disorder. Might these lives have taken a different path if their disorder was identified early and they were not thrown into the grinder of medical school/the absolute stress of the Steps which can effectively shut you out of career paths you may have been aiming for since first year? Perhaps they could have been guided towards less stressful paths that could still allow them to work in a field they truly enjoyed.

Also, I would say that forums are meant to be places of discussion. If we simply wanted to leave posts of sympathy or sorrow, Mrs. Elkins has a memorial page which you linked to previously which anyone can post on to share their condolences.
I think you may be misinterpreting my intention which was not to stifle discussion. However the conversation about whether medicine or dental is more elite is off topic.

The OP started this thread because she wants to talk about the crisis of suicides in medical school so I think out of respect to her, the Elkins family and others affected we should try to keep it as much on topic as possible. A discussion of alternative options for those who
I'm not sure what you're talking about. I had one post in response. Maybe it came up on your phone differently or something? I don't know what you mean by "continue to insist that I am trying to stifle discussion". I did have another post in response to someone else which was not directed at you at all.
YOU ARE NOT THE FATHER!!!

I MEAN YOU ARE CORRECT!!!

Yes, it appeared on my phone as you responded to me twice which is why it felt like to me that you had "insisted that I was trying to stifle discussion.

I am sorry, I was wrong and will delete my post above.
 
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Meanwhile all the obstructions laid in front of med students don't exist for PAs and NPs. I know many med students who would kill to do Derm and yet an NP and PA doesn't even have to do a residency to practice it. Just a certain number of "contact" hours, maybe take a dinky cakewalk certfication exam for brownie points, and they can go off and do it. Once an NP/PA is done with school, they are "ready on Day 1" and that's how they sell themselves, while saying look at those stupid physicians, even at the end of 4 years of med school, they still can't practice anything.
I regret not doing dentistry or PA school.
 
I regret not doing dentistry or PA school.

I think now that I'm essentially done, I don't regret doing this. On the way up the mountain though, I definitely have had second thoughts.

This is a great discussion. I'm convinced we have incredibly intelligent people in this field. Unfortunately, we lack leadership - both in general and in unity.

So we've been manipulated by corporations/academia to do their bidding - look good on rotations, follow orders, jump through the hoops, out compete the next guy, score high on exams. It's all a game. And most will mindlessly obey like lab rats running through an endless maze only to get a the occasional piece of cheese before we start running again.
 
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I think you may be misinterpreting my intention which was not to stifle discussion. However the conversation about whether medicine or dental is more elite is off topic.
My underlying point, which I agree I didn't articulate (since he was talking about elite profession) was that those who are predisposed early on to anxiety or depression who go into medicine in part bc it is "elite" or for some level of self-esteem boost, would have been much better off in other alternative pathways. That's what I was getting at and was my point in bringing those other fields/alternative paths that are still "elite" that virtually end at the same place. 4 years of medical school + 3-7 years of residency training + 1-3 years of fellowship is a long time to be unhappy. I personally believe a lot of the suicides that happened could have possibly been avoided if another much shorter pathway had been taken.

Kelly, the medical student mentioned by Dral above, who pursued Dermatology, failed to match, and committed suicide, would likely have been saved if she had done an alternative pathway in the same specialty. Ok, now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
 
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Quoted:

To feel that you are falling short, every day, saps the spirit of even the most dedicated of physicians. We feel as though we have been set up to fail. Even when we do manage to preserve the joy of connecting with patients and helping improve lives, the festering stress of trying to achieve the impossible takes its toll—compromised family life, drug and alcohol addictions, depression, and thoughts of suicide.

I do believe that medical school's stresses are a large part of it. It's likely that some of the people who are gone would still be here if they were in a friendly 40 hr a week job with less obstacles and endless requirements.
 
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I do believe that medical school's stresses are a large part of it. It's likely that some of the people who are gone would still be here if they were in a friendly 40 hr a week job with less obstacles and endless requirements.
And the requirements for physicians are being tacked on more and more long after medical school: residency, in-training exams, specialty boards, maintenance of certification and maintenance of licensure till the day you quit practicing. The stresses of practicing don't just stop even after residency is over. The stresses are inherent to medical education. You can cut around the edges, but you still have the same thing in the end.

"During medical school, at least one-half of students experience burnout, and some 10 percent contemplate suicide."
 
That's great. I'd like to see them apply a match.com or e-harmony-like approach so that peers are 99% matched if possible so that they bond well and can be supports for one another rather than just pairing female hispanic med students. Do you know if mentoring programs have done this? In Kaitlyn's case she would have not truly opened up to someone unless she really felt bonded. I'd like to see peer mentors become lifelong supports, BFF, and that is more likely to happen with a matching process similar to dating sites.

are you talking about mandating something like this at the school level or just having a service available
 
What can/should medical students do that are struggling with these issues? I know that there are "services" available at the school but as mentioned earlier these are required by the LCME and are just a facade. Ever since second year started I've felt less and less trusting of my school/admin. I just don't believe they would help and just want to flag my file if I sought help.
 
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What can/should medical students do that are struggling with these issues? I know that there are "services" available at the school but as mentioned earlier these are required by the LCME and are just a facade. Ever since second year started I've felt less and less trusting of my school/admin. I just don't believe they would help and just want to flag my file if I sought help.

ok so have you sought out 3rd party help?
 
ok so have you sought out 3rd party help?

No I have not, I suppose that's my question. A private practice psychiatrist I guess is my answer if I don't want to go to the school.
 
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Quoted:



I do believe that medical school's stresses are a large part of it. It's likely that some of the people who are gone would still be here if they were in a friendly 40 hr a week job with less obstacles and endless requirements.

I feel this way quite often. Though I must say, despite how difficult some patients can be, one of the constants I've found throughout med school is that there is much joy in medicine. I've found it to be extremely rewarding to be able to connect with patients, to be there when they are frustrated, sick, in despair. It reminds me that there is so much humanity in all of us. But, just as we see patients on hospital gurneys that are suffering, there are those around us that are suffering as well. Try to keep this in the back of your mind; we need to look out for each other because no one is looking out for us.
 
No I have not, I suppose that's my question. A private practice psychiatrist I guess is my answer if I don't want to go to the school.

it's not like you have to see a physician.. there are counselors, psychologists and all kinds of other people you could talk to.
 
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Wow, this thread is making me really want to approach medicine with a much more detached outlook and spend my efforts completely de-connecting from it in my spare time.
Sees status --> Says "Pre-Dental" --> :whoa:
 
I'm pre-med. I want to see people in more serious clinical situations.
I was only being facetious with the emoticon. Regardless, always helpful to know what each pathway involves, emotionally, financially, etc.
 
it's not like you have to see a physician.. there are counselors, psychologists and all kinds of other people you could talk to.

When I was suffering, I figured I wouldn't get the help I needed through the very profession that wounded me in the first place so I went to a counselor in town. When she asked how I found her, I said "Yellow Pages." (this was way back!). She responded, "There are so many counselors in the Yellow Pages, how did you end up picking me?" I said, "You were the only one without a big ad and a bunch of initials after your name." She was awesome!
 
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What can/should medical students do that are struggling with these issues? I know that there are "services" available at the school but as mentioned earlier these are required by the LCME and are just a facade. Ever since second year started I've felt less and less trusting of my school/admin. I just don't believe they would help and just want to flag my file if I sought help.

Very disturbing to feel scrutinized and potentially victimized and punished when you need help (and in the helping profession!!)
 
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I think it's much easier for medical schools and residency programs to shove it under the rug for PR reasons. Talking about the destabilizing forces eventually leads to what is contributing to those destabilizing forces, which then leads back to the school or the residency program and the last thing they want is fingers pointed at them, rightfully or wrongfully. Which then can affect the number of students/MD applicants who apply. The schools/programs surely won't be mentioning it on their websites.

I think we reflexively even do that now:
Was it bc she got a low boards score (oh then that must be why he/she committed suicide - not the school/program's fault!)
Was she not doing well academically in school? (oh then that must be why he/she committed suicide - not the school/program's fault!)
Was it bc he/she had a prior history of anxiety/depression (oh then that is definitely why he/she committed suicide - not the school/program's fault!)

I think in the 3 cases you mentioned - when it isn't academics or board scores, when we realize there is no excuse we can hide behind to push it under the rug which is when the conversation gets very uncomfortable.


To take on physician suicide in a real way will take American medicine to its knees. Our entire medical education system would need to be restructured. That said, there are simple things that can be done now to save lives of med students & docs.
 
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I think it's much easier for medical schools and residency programs to shove it under the rug for PR reasons. Talking about the destabilizing forces eventually leads to what is contributing to those destabilizing forces, which then leads back to the school or the residency program and the last thing they want is fingers pointed at them, rightfully or wrongfully. Which then can affect the number of students/MD applicants who apply. The schools/programs surely won't be mentioning it on their websites.

I think we reflexively even do that now:
Was it bc she got a low boards score (oh then that must be why he/she committed suicide - not the school/program's fault!)
Was she not doing well academically in school? (oh then that must be why he/she committed suicide - not the school/program's fault!)
Was it bc he/she had a prior history of anxiety/depression (oh then that is definitely why he/she committed suicide - not the school/program's fault!)

I think in the 3 cases you mentioned - when it isn't academics or board scores, when we realize there is no excuse we can hide behind to push it under the rug which is when the conversation gets very uncomfortable.

love, love, love, love your insight here!!!!!
 
Regarding med student & physician suicides: Any other blame-the-victim questions?

1) Was he not doing well academically?

2) Did she got a low board score?

3) Did she have a prior history of depression?

4) Are we selecting the wrong candidates? (I hear this one a lot. We need to just pick the right people for med school)

These questions focus blame on the victim and not the med school, residency program, health care system, hospital, clinics.
 
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These questions focus blame on the victim and not the med school, residency program, health care system, hospital, clinics.

No one is purely a "victim" here though. The truth is that some students may have been ill-advised to pursue medical training or perhaps gone for the wrong reasons AND were subject to abuses and stress. Discussions about "victim blaming" are not fruitful, IMO, because they imply that the other party is solely responsible for the entire situation. While I do empathize with students struggling in medical school and residency, I think it's inaccurate to absolve them entirely of their own responsibility to choose a profession that suits their personality. There's issues on both sides of the equation here.
 
No one is purely a "victim" here though. The truth is that some students may have been ill-advised to pursue medical training or perhaps gone for the wrong reasons AND were subject to abuses and stress. Discussions about "victim blaming" are not fruitful, IMO, because they imply that the other party is solely responsible for the entire situation. While I do empathize with students struggling in medical school and residency, I think it's inaccurate to absolve them entirely of their own responsibility to choose a profession that suits their personality. There's issues on both sides of the equation here.

Victim = a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime accident or other event.

Examples: Suicided med student, raped teenage girl, abused wife.

Blame = Assign responsibility for fault or wrong.

While these issues are certainly complex and I believe all suicides deserve investigation in the form of psychological autopsies, I believe that your comment that these students may have been ill-advised to pursue medical training or that they went into medicine for the wrong reasons is a bit like saying the raped teenage girl shouldn't have gone to that party in that particular skirt and the abused wife was ill-advised to marry that All-American guy who promised he'd love her forever.

Fact is they are victims. What else would be an appropriate label for a dead medical student from suicide?
 
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What would lead to the highest participation among students do you think?

well if it were mandatory that seems like it would however I'd definitely not support that concept, so I was just trying to understand what was being advocated
 
Victim = a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime accident or other event.

Examples: Suicided med student, raped teenage girl, abused wife.

Blame = Assign responsibility for fault or wrong.

While these issues are certainly complex and I believe all suicides deserve investigation in the form of psychological autopsies, I believe that your comment that these students may have been ill-advised to pursue medical training or that they went into medicine for the wrong reasons is a bit like saying the raped teenage girl shouldn't have gone to that party in that particular skirt and the abused wife was ill-advised to marry that All-American guy who promised he'd love her forever.

Fact is they are victims. What else would be an appropriate label for a dead medical student from suicide?

Yeah but in both of your examples, the victims are both being directly and intentionally harmed (raped/abused).

Im not sure this is a valid comparison unless you truly believe that medical training in itself involves the direct and intentional harming of medical students/residents. If that were true then most likely there wouldn't be any happy medical students/residents and everyone would be suffering.

There are those medical students who do truly enjoy med school. You can't say the same thing about being abused or raped.

I do agree that the issue is very complex.

Here's a question:

If someone chooses to sign up for an 80 hr a week job in northern Alaska far from family and friends for 4 years then becomes depressed and commits suicide, is it all the company's fault (for having those job conditions and not detecting their depression) or should the person share some of the blame?
 
Yeah but in both of your examples, the victims are both being directly and intentionally harmed (raped/abused).

Im not sure this is a valid comparison unless you truly believe that medical training in itself involves the direct and intentional harming of medical students/residents. If that were true then most likely there wouldn't be any happy medical students/residents and everyone would be suffering.

There are those medical students who do truly enjoy med school. You can't say the same thing about being abused or raped.

I do agree that the issue is very complex.

Here's a question:

If someone chooses to sign up for an 80 hr a week job in northern Alaska far from family and friends for 4 years then becomes depressed and commits suicide, is it all the company's fault (for having those job conditions and not detecting their depression) or should the person share some of the blame?

what if someone signs up for that job and he/she is consistently treated like crap? the fact of the matter is that this is a multifaceted problem with a myriad of different contributing factors, but for some reason people are trying to over-simplify it. i don't really think you can blame someone for becoming depressed or suicidal. i can, however, blame a school that has tests every week or multiple times a week on subjecting their students to unnecessary amounts of stress that can contribute to depression and suicidality amongst its students.
 
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what if someone signs up for that job and he/she is consistently treated like crap? the fact of the matter is that this is a multifaceted problem with a myriad of different contributing factors, but for some reason people are trying to over-simplify it. i don't really think you can blame someone for becoming depressed or suicidal. i can, however, blame a school that has tests every week or multiple times a week on subjecting their students to unnecessary amounts of stress that can contribute to depression and suicidality amongst its students.

unnecessary? the fact that becoming a physician is hard is the reason it is compensated as it is. if the employer treats their workers like crap, then potential employees will evaluate if the perks are worth dealing with the crap or not. you don't need any other interventions than that. becoming a physician puts you into the 99th percentile in life achievement. newsflash: that will never be easy.
 
If someone chooses to sign up for an 80 hr a week job in northern Alaska far from family and friends for 4 years then becomes depressed and commits suicide, is it all the company's fault (for having those job conditions and not detecting their depression) or should the person share some of the blame?

I think this was mentioned earlier in the thread, but a big part of the problem is that by the time you realize you're not cut out for medicine you're trapped. By loans and by societal and familial pressure. And people are very eager to tell you when you're miserable that it will get better - just wait till 3rd year, just wait till residency, just wait till you're an attending.
 
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I think this was mentioned earlier in the thread, but a big part of the problem is that by the time you realize you're not cut out for medicine you're trapped. By loans and by societal and familial pressure. And people are very eager to tell you when you're miserable that it will get better - just wait till 3rd year, just wait till residency, just wait till you're an attending.

cool happens to people in other professions all the time wah wah wah
 
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Hmmm. Not sure I'm quite on board with equating the level of victim-hood of someone who was raped and someone who committed suicide.
 
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Hmmm. Not sure I'm quite on board with equating the level of victim-hood of someone who was raped and someone who committed suicide.

i mean posts like this are living proof that these people are trying to shape policy off emotion. the fact that a student committed suicide has nothing to do with the idea of help being needed or not. I'd love to see how many people were pushing for more active measures for help before this happened and then after. it's the same thing as gun control after a school shooting.
 
unnecessary? the fact that becoming a physician is hard is the reason it is compensated as it is. if the employer treats their workers like crap, then potential employees will evaluate if the perks are worth dealing with the crap or not. you don't need any other interventions than that. becoming a physician puts you into the 99th percentile in life achievement. newsflash: that will never be easy.

you're right, it's necessary to have tests every 2 weeks (even though places like Yale don't even have mandatory tests in preclinicals). second, how can a potential employee know how they are going to be treated prior to taking a job? third, no one said it was easy, i'm just saying there could be a little bit more attention paid to how to improve med students' quality of life. administrators clearly don't give a crap, though.
 
you're right, it's necessary to have tests every 2 weeks (even though places like Yale don't even have mandatory tests in preclinicals). second, how can a potential employee know how they are going to be treated prior to taking a job? third, no one said it was easy, i'm just saying there could be a little bit more attention paid to how to improve med students' quality of life. administrators clearly don't give a crap, though.

because yale has all stud students and can trust that they're diligently working, not to mention those high prestige schools have insane resources to hold other activities for the student's learning that lower schools can't.. these schools with 30 MCAT averages? No, can't say the same thing.

They aren't going to know how they will be treated, they can have a reasonable expectation though. "there could be a little more attention paid to how to improve med students' quality of life." What does this statement mean and in what context did you generate it. that's so arbitrary. My life would be better if they had someone give me a massage every time I had to sit through one of their stupid lectures, yet I realize when I made a commitment to the school, I stated that I'd follow all the crap they asked of me, within reason. You chose to sign up for it, you aren't being grossly violated, so deal with it.
 
because yale has all stud students and can trust that they're diligently working, not to mention those high prestige schools have insane resources to hold other activities for the student's learning that lower schools can't.. these schools with 30 MCAT averages? No, can't say the same thing.

They aren't going to know how they will be treated, they can have a reasonable expectation though. "there could be a little more attention paid to how to improve med students' quality of life." What does this statement mean and in what context did you generate it. that's so arbitrary. My life would be better if they had someone give me a massage every time I had to sit through one of their stupid lectures, yet I realize when I made a commitment to the school, I stated that I'd follow all the crap they asked of me, within reason. You chose to sign up for it, you aren't being grossly violated, so deal with it.

Honestly, I feel like we're going in circles; I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you.
 
Honestly, I feel like we're going in circles; I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you.

you keep saying something without actually saying anything
 
Yeah but in both of your examples, the victims are both being directly and intentionally harmed (raped/abused).

Im not sure this is a valid comparison unless you truly believe that medical training in itself involves the direct and intentional harming of medical students/residents. If that were true then most likely there wouldn't be any happy medical students/residents and everyone would be suffering.

There are those medical students who do truly enjoy med school. You can't say the same thing about being abused or raped.

I do agree that the issue is very complex.

Here's a question:

If someone chooses to sign up for an 80 hr a week job in northern Alaska far from family and friends for 4 years then becomes depressed and commits suicide, is it all the company's fault (for having those job conditions and not detecting their depression) or should the person share some of the blame?

No perfect analogy, but preparing a 45 minute talk on solutions. Will post some soon. And yes, medical institutions could be doing a lot better at creating resilient among docs and students rather than destabilizing them. So could individual docs and med students. We could have a culture of compassion if we wanted it (rather than competition and abuse).
 
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No perfect analogy, but preparing a 45 minute talk on solutions. Will post some soon. And yes, medical institutions could be doing a lot better at creating resilient among docs and students rather than destabilizing them. So could individual docs and med students. We could have a culture of compassion if we wanted it (rather than competition and abuse).

What does that mean though? Like that statement sounds nice, but in actuality, what changes would you make for your vision of a culture? You're naturally going to have competition because everything is relative and if everyone is a winner, then everyone is also a loser. Same thing as grade inflation with rotations. With competition, abuse is also going to happen. Compassion = not business smart and in the end, this is a business. If you aren't being compassionate enough for your business model to continue, then you should focus on it, however it's never going to be the primary goal.
 
No perfect analogy, but preparing a 45 minute talk on solutions. Will post some soon. And yes, medical institutions could be doing a lot better at creating resilient among docs and students rather than destabilizing them. So could individual docs and med students. We could have a culture of compassion if we wanted it (rather than competition and abuse).

Comparing this issue to rape will make people take you less seriously. It's not a logical comparison, and makes you look like you're overselling. Eyes will be rolling throughout your audience. This is an important issue worth discussing, and there's no use employing a rhetorical tactic similar to Godwin's law. Just my $0.02.
 
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Comparing this issue to rape will make people take you less seriously. It's not a logical comparison, and makes you look like you're overselling. Eyes will be rolling throughout your audience. This is an important issue worth discussing, and there's no use employing a rhetorical tactic similar to Godwin's law. Just my $0.02.

No intention of doing that. I was referring to blaming the victim phrases which are unhelpful overall in any case.
 
What does that mean though? Like that statement sounds nice, but in actuality, what changes would you make for your vision of a culture? You're naturally going to have competition because everything is relative and if everyone is a winner, then everyone is also a loser. Same thing as grade inflation with rotations. With competition, abuse is also going to happen. Compassion = not business smart and in the end, this is a business. If you aren't being compassionate enough for your business model to continue, then you should focus on it, however it's never going to be the primary goal.

Ah . . . I'll share details after October 24. Promise. Really beyond what I can easily discuss on a thread like this.
 
I think this was mentioned earlier in the thread, but a big part of the problem is that by the time you realize you're not cut out for medicine you're trapped. By loans and by societal and familial pressure. And people are very eager to tell you when you're miserable that it will get better - just wait till 3rd year, just wait till residency, just wait till you're an attending.

Right. It's like one of the boss battles where the door shuts behind you, and the door ahead doesn't open until you win.

Except this boss battle is never ending, and all too real.
 
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Right. It's like one of the boss battles where the door shuts behind you, and the door ahead doesn't open until you win.

Except this boss battle is never ending, and all too real.
Life's not a video game, Ark. No matter how much you may think it is.
 
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He doesn't understand any other way to relate to reality
Yeah, I know. It's really very sad. I can't imagine seeing everything as a video game and seeing things or people as an obstacle in my path to destroy.
 
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No I have not, I suppose that's my question. A private practice psychiatrist I guess is my answer if I don't want to go to the school.
Our school gives us a tele-paych line if we don't want to see the faculty/staff
 
Hmmm. Not sure I'm quite on board with equating the level of victim-hood of someone who was raped and someone who committed suicide.
I'm okay with it. Especially given the high rates of suicide amongst rape victims.

But really I think she was giving other examples of victim blaming logic which happens a lot for victims of rape (she was asking for it) abuse (why didn't she leave?) And suicide (she was selfish)
 
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I'm okay with it. Especially given the high rates of suicide amongst rape victims.

But really I think she was giving other examples of victim blaming logic which happens a lot for victims of rape (she was asking for it) abuse (why didn't she leave?) And suicide (she was selfish)

I see no problem with you having an opinion on the matter but your first statement here does not make sense logically. I said A does not equal B. You said it does because sometimes people with B, do A. While it may be true (I don't know if the prevalence for suicide is higher in rape victims, I'll take your word for it), that people who have had B (rape) happen to them often do A (suicide), that is not the same as equating the degree of accountability in them. At some point we have to make people accountable to a degree for their actions. She had a disease (depression/suicidality) which for whatever social/professional/financial stressors she was unable to treat effectively. While it is unfortunate and tragic and I wish it upon no one, it is not the same as being raped/killed/abused. There is a difference in accountability/control in the two situations.
 
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