Double Suicide ~ Med Student & Her Mom

[PamelaWibleMD]

med student mental health was a topic that I took a fair amount of interest in over the past few years. To that end, a classmate/friend and I helped put two different ideas into motion at our school:

1) mandatory mental health panel ~1/2way through first year (when things really ramp up for us): short lecture about mental health in medicine and the resources available to students (which are actually quite good, except people don't know about them or don't want to use them) followed by a panel of 3rd/4th years students, residents, and attendings who talk about their struggles with mental illnesses and how they've dealt with them --- our student health physician did note an uptick in students coming to her about mental health issues after these. The feedback that we got was quite positive, especially at having an attending be open & honest about his/her issues.

2) death rounds: a voluntary, monthly meeting for 3rd & 4th years students led by 2-4th years, a social worker/chaplain, and a palliative care physician where students talk about cases they've been involved with regarding patient suffering and death. we're just getting this started but again we're getting good feedback. getting med students to talk about emotions feels like pulling teeth sometimes, but everyone wants to know that what they're feeling is both acceptable and normal. again, having an attending talk about how hard her cases hit her at times and how much she's struggled with things is very popular with the students.

...In the end, we're the tired, overwhelmed med students who are organizing these things that perhaps the administration should be doing, but it's totally worth it knowing that it's helping even a few students a year. The key is getting attendings who are willing to take off the stoic mask for a few moments talk openly about how they've struggled and overcame or at least tolerated those struggles --- med students will never accept the negative emotions they're having or seek help for them until those feelings have been validated and normalized by the people in power over them.

AWESOME Feedback & ideas. What school is this?

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[DermViser]

Whaaaaaaa? No, that's not true.



#sarcasm

Nothing shuts up a student faster than being called (accused) of being unprofessional.

 

[Entadus]

PamelaWible was banned? Whaaaa?


Gotta be kidding me.

EDIT: Oh, account on hold.... hmmm

 

[DermViser]

Why was Pamela Wible, banned?

 

[Promethean]

Mods felt she was self-promoting too much.

I understand that we have to keep spammers out, but I don't see what she does as self-promotion.

 

[W19]

These mods have been very sensitive lately...

 

[Entadus]

If PamelaWible was "self-promoting" somebody needs to ban 'Mr. 265 265 265 radiology usmle tutor guy'. LOL

 

[DermViser]

Mods felt she was self-promoting too much.

I understand that we have to keep spammers out, but I don't see what she does as self-promotion.

I understand regarding possibly being seen as self-promoting by posting one's blog link, but I think in this instance, such a grave topic as medical student/resident/attending suicide, which is a real problem and will only increase bc of match numbers, Obamacare, etc. - Dr. Wible is actively doing something about the problem herself and dedicating her time to actively help people. It's not like she's selling USMLE Step 1 studying thru Skype like some other people have done.

I'm sure though someone will complain that she got to post it, so why not their blog, yada yada.

 

[Microshaft]

i dont know why she always says it like suicide is exclusive to physicians
there are plenty of jobs out there that make u want to off yourself dude

 

[DermViser]

i dont know why she always says it like suicide is exclusive to physicians
there are plenty of jobs out there that make u want to off yourself dude

Stop trolling, dude.

 

[FIREitUP]

Why was Pamela Wible, banned?

that's unfortunate. while i believe that her cause is very important, i do think she was a bit outspoken on these forums

 

[W19]

I have heard that suicide is high among dentists as well, so this not only a physician issue.

 

[DermViser]

I have heard that suicide is high among dentists as well, so this not only a physician issue.

And u would be wrong.

 

[DermViser]

that's unfortunate. while i believe that her cause is very important, i do think she was a bit outspoken on these forums

Yes, bc if anything the rest of us aren't, it is being outspoken. Perish the thought.

 

[fancymylotus]

whoa what tf? she got banned?

 

[DermViser]

whoa what tf? she got banned?

Her picture says banned but I believe her account is on hold.

 

[W19]

And u would be wrong.

Do you have stats to prove that statement?

 

[DermViser]

Do you have stats to prove that statement?

Do you have stats to prove yours? The onus is on you to prove the affirmative, not for me to prove the converse.

 

[FIREitUP]

Yes, bc if anything the rest of us aren't, it is being outspoken. Perish the thought.

i think she might have hit the threshold tolerated as we've seen in previous instances

 

[DermViser]

i think she might have hit the threshold tolerated as we've seen in previous instances

She was maybe outspoken (whatever that means in this case), but not arrogant.

 

[FIREitUP]

She was maybe outspoken (whatever that means in this case), but not arrogant.

agreed. mods still may have thought she overstepped her boundaries

 

[Microshaft]

ok trolling aside
i think theres actually very little stats on suicide by profession

i think this article has some valid points:
http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan01/suicide.aspx
generally, it says most studies are inconclusive/not enough data/biased
the study that says medical field suicide rate is higher was done almost 20 years ago

i just dont think this job in particular causes people to suicide more.
yeah, treating terminal patients and watching people die suck. combine that with huge responsibilities and crazy hours and it might be enough to crack someone. but at the same time there might be the gratification of actually curing diseases and actually helping people some of the time
people in finance and law might even have it worse sometimes

 

[W19]

Do you have stats to prove yours? The onus is on you to prove the affirmative, not for me to prove the converse.

Did you read my post? I said 'I heard'; that was not a statement of facts. You are the one who told me that I was wrong, but did not provide any stats to back up your claim...

 

[Winged Scapula]

Dr Wibles account was removed at her request.

 

[DermViser]

Dr Wibles account was removed at her request.

I'm confused - removed or on hold?

 

[touchpause13]

I appreciated what Dr. Wible brought to SDN and I hope that she comes our school eventually

 

[UnderGrad]

Wait, what? You're saying Dr. Wible asked for her account to be removed? Why would she do that? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Wait, what? You're saying Dr. Wible asked for her account to be removed? Why would she do that? That doesn't make sense.

That's what I'm saying but I'm not at liberty to discuss the reasons why. Depending on the option used to close an account, the verbiage will change ("Banned vs Account on Hold" etc).

I suggest you guys let it go and move on.

 

[FIREitUP]

That's what I'm saying but I'm not at liberty to discuss the reasons why. Depending on the option used to close an account, the verbiage will change ("Banned vs Account on Hold" etc).

I suggest you guys let it go and move on.

Thanks for letting us know.

I think most of us are surprised because of the great effort she put in to reach out to the SDN community, and encourage discourse on a very important topic that is all-too-often ignored.

 

[DermViser]

Thanks for letting us know.

I think most of us are surprised because of the great effort she put in to reach out to the SDN community, and encourage discourse on a very important topic that is all-too-often ignored.

Yes. That's what is so weird about it. If your wish is to educate people on this topic, why would you just leave?

 

[Promethean]

Dr Wibles account was removed at her request.

I stand corrected. That is another way to read what I was told about it. She said that there was some disagreement about her posting habits, and that the end result was that she won't be posting here any more.

I respect the difficult job the moderators have, and that unchecked self-promotion would quickly ruin this site, which is so useful. I appreciate all that they must do in order to make this place run.

While I adore Dr. Wible, she doesn't have to be here personally in order for her work to be discussed or for others to speak here about the cause of psychological support for distressed physicians. If anyone needs to reach out to her, she is quite approachable.

As @Winged Scapula advised, I'm leaving this matter alone.

 

[DermViser]

I stand corrected. That is another way to read what I was told about it. She said that there was some disagreement about her posting habits, and that the end result was that she won't be posting here any more.

I respect the difficult job the moderators have, and that unchecked self-promotion would quickly ruin this site, which is so useful. I appreciate all that they must do in order to make this place run.

While I adore Dr. Wible, she doesn't have to be here personally in order for her work to be discussed or for others to speak here about the cause of psychological support for distressed physicians. If anyone needs to reach out to her, she is quite approachable.

As @Winged Scapula advised, I'm leaving this matter alone.

That's what I figured happened.

 

[NontradCA]

That's what I'm saying but I'm not at liberty to discuss the reasons why. Depending on the option used to close an account, the verbiage will change ("Banned vs Account on Hold" etc).

I suggest you guys let it go and move on.

Why can't we have anything nice? Well, guess it's back to berating each other.

 

[NontradCA]

That's what I'm saying but I'm not at liberty to discuss the reasons why. Depending on the option used to close an account, the verbiage will change ("Banned vs Account on Hold" etc).

I suggest you guys let it go and move on.

Dats wut u saying? Wuts really gud. Cum at me Breh

 

[circulus vitios]

Dats wut u saying? Wuts really gud. Cum at me Breh

You drunk, brah?

 

[DermViser]

Dats wut u saying? Wuts really gud. Cum at me Breh

Are you intoxicated?

 

[seminoma]

Anyone know if OP is doing talks at schools other than the ones mentioned in the OP?

Dats wut u saying? Wuts really gud. Cum at me Breh

You drunk, brah?

Now we just need Ark and it's a party.

 

[touchpause13]

Anyone know if OP is doing talks at schools other than the ones mentioned in the OP?




Now we just need Ark and it's a party.

I think it's more of a job for vintage ark aka hughmyron

And I know you can contact Dr. Wible through her website and ask if she will come to ur school.

 

[DermViser]

Anyone know if OP is doing talks at schools other than the ones mentioned in the OP?

You can contact her on her website. She's recruited by med students, themselves, to talk to them.

 

[QuietOne]

As a physician with a history of depression and a prior suicide attempt, I was curious about Dr.Wible and happy to hear that someone was trying to help advocate for mental health issues in medical professionals. However, after reading all of these posts I am left feeling uncomfortable. I knew the young derm resident who committed suicide. It sounded cold and self serving when she asked what method Kelly used. I was sick enough that my sister intervened in my suicide attempt, though I did end up on life support... and after many years of fighting with my illness, I am better. I also know of another resident (I met later) who attempted suicide using very specific, lethal means and had left enough people worried about him that he was found near death but recovered. And is happy and healthy now. I know of another medical student who murdered a fellow medical student... my niece is her namesake as she was close to my family. These are horrors in my memory. I know too many successful professionals, bright and well educated with loving families and the best access to mental health care.... who lost their battle with depression. I know them because of all of the treatment I got following my suicide attempt... they were peers of mine. I know Kelly's father, and I am sure he wouldn't want Kelly to be a statistic in someone's national tour. No matter what her good intentions. I think there is a more empathetic way to go about things. I do believe that the area of physician suicide needs attention.... I am less sure it needs to be strictly physician suicide and more certain attention needs to be placed on mental health advocacy in pre med/medical school/residency. I wish it did not make my blood boil to see Dr. Wible fishing for details about Kelly's death. In order to further her own personal recognition. I have been thinking about this for a couple of days. I hope she sees this somehow.

 

[Siggy]

I do believe that the area of physician suicide needs attention.... I am less sure it needs to be strictly physician suicide and more certain attention needs to be placed on mental health advocacy in pre med/medical school/residency. I wish it did not make my blood boil to see Dr. Wible fishing for details about Kelly's death. In order to further her own personal recognition. I have been thinking about this for a couple of days. I hope she sees this somehow.

I wonder how much of the suicidal ideation among that group isn't a problem of clinical depression per say (in terms of a permanent disease process) and the fact that sometimes it's just hard to keep on swimming when the stress mounts... especially when that stress comes from failure and uncertainty of the future (med school admissions/residency matching/specialty isn't what you expected). Some times it's harder or next to impossible to look at tomorrow, next month, or next year and say, "It'll be better, I just need to get through today," and I openly wonder how much of that can be solved short of developing internal defense mechanisms and external support systems... and medication or a couple of counseling sessions aren't necessarily those things.

 

[DermViser]

As a physician with a history of depression and a prior suicide attempt, I was curious about Dr.Wible and happy to hear that someone was trying to help advocate for mental health issues in medical professionals. However, after reading all of these posts I am left feeling uncomfortable. I knew the young derm resident who committed suicide. It sounded cold and self serving when she asked what method Kelly used. I was sick enough that my sister intervened in my suicide attempt, though I did end up on life support... and after many years of fighting with my illness, I am better. I also know of another resident (I met later) who attempted suicide using very specific, lethal means and had left enough people worried about him that he was found near death but recovered. And is happy and healthy now. I know of another medical student who murdered a fellow medical student... my niece is her namesake as she was close to my family. These are horrors in my memory. I know too many successful professionals, bright and well educated with loving families and the best access to mental health care.... who lost their battle with depression. I know them because of all of the treatment I got following my suicide attempt... they were peers of mine. I know Kelly's father, and I am sure he wouldn't want Kelly to be a statistic in someone's national tour. No matter what her good intentions. I think there is a more empathetic way to go about things. I do believe that the area of physician suicide needs attention.... I am less sure it needs to be strictly physician suicide and more certain attention needs to be placed on mental health advocacy in pre med/medical school/residency. I wish it did not make my blood boil to see Dr. Wible fishing for details about Kelly's death. In order to further her own personal recognition. I have been thinking about this for a couple of days. I hope she sees this somehow.

To be fair, I believe the reason Dr. Wible wanted to know the method used is to be able to relate real-life examples to medical students in her talks with them in which she is invited by their students to talk. It isn't due to some morbid curiosity on her part and an attempt to pry or gain pleasure in wanting to know how she died. I could very well see medical students compartmentalize and just believe it doesn't exist if one were to say they just committed suicide and leave it at that - and they have every reason due to the already inherent stress of medical school. Knowing HOW they committed suicide in a weird way crystallizes it for medical students. It's not something you can just wave your hand and easily dismiss and forces the audience to confront it. These real life examples: the 2 interns in New York (I'm leaving out their names on purpose - however she says them in her talk which she had recorded), Kaitlyn Elkins, and Kelly Werlinger are real life examples of this. I would not try to divine the motivations of someone based on posts on an SDN thread. Go to Dr. Wible's blog instead and you can see for yourself what her true intentions are and reach your own conclusions. While I understand your underlying feelings on this, I don't think you should immediately attribute bad intentions without actual proof - there's enough negativity in medicine as it is esp. on topic like this that almost gets swept under the rug by all parties involved.

Also, Dr. Wible's blog addresses a lot more topics than just med student/physician suicide. This is one of many issues that she discusses, it just so happens that she's very passionate about this subject as it has affected Dr. Wible personally both in terms of her medical school classmates and even herself. While I think it is easy to classify her mentioning Kelly in future talks as some type of self-aggrandizement/personal recognition or Kelly as some sort of statistic - I do not believe that to be the case. She has been talking about this issue long before these cases ever came to light. Would you rather these cases never be talked about at all and just talk about med student/physician suicide in general?

While this may be an inadvertent mistake on your part (but is quite relevant in this case), Kelly didn't actually match into Dermatology. She then committed suicide in the first month of her internship year. Kelly has actually been discussed in detail in the Dermatology forum. I will leave out my personal opinions with regards to Kelly and all that she's accomplished with respect to her not even matching at her home program, but I believe she truly would have accomplished great things in academic Dermatology if only she had been given a chance. Her CV was spectacular in terms of demonstrating her very real, genuine commitment to the field.

If you are indeed friends with Kelly's father, please let him know that his daughter's national organization, the Dermatology Interest Group Association has helped countless medical students in helping to elucidate the process better esp. for those who don't have a home Dermatology program to mentor them. Kelly would be so proud to know that her organization she founded and was President of on the national level has become such a great success, with active Dermatology PD involvement and even getting corporate sponsorship.

 

[Mass Effect]

As a physician with a history of depression and a prior suicide attempt, I was curious about Dr.Wible and happy to hear that someone was trying to help advocate for mental health issues in medical professionals. However, after reading all of these posts I am left feeling uncomfortable. I knew the young derm resident who committed suicide. It sounded cold and self serving when she asked what method Kelly used. I was sick enough that my sister intervened in my suicide attempt, though I did end up on life support... and after many years of fighting with my illness, I am better. I also know of another resident (I met later) who attempted suicide using very specific, lethal means and had left enough people worried about him that he was found near death but recovered. And is happy and healthy now. I know of another medical student who murdered a fellow medical student... my niece is her namesake as she was close to my family. These are horrors in my memory. I know too many successful professionals, bright and well educated with loving families and the best access to mental health care.... who lost their battle with depression. I know them because of all of the treatment I got following my suicide attempt... they were peers of mine. I know Kelly's father, and I am sure he wouldn't want Kelly to be a statistic in someone's national tour. No matter what her good intentions. I think there is a more empathetic way to go about things. I do believe that the area of physician suicide needs attention.... I am less sure it needs to be strictly physician suicide and more certain attention needs to be placed on mental health advocacy in pre med/medical school/residency. I wish it did not make my blood boil to see Dr. Wible fishing for details about Kelly's death. In order to further her own personal recognition. I have been thinking about this for a couple of days. I hope she sees this somehow.

With all due respect, I think it's unfair to assign nefarious motives to posters based on a few posts (and saying that she was asking for details to further her own national recognition is nefarious, in my opinion). I agree with DermViser. I believe her motives are genuine.

 

[sealford]

I just wanted to say that it has been interesting to read these comments. As the sister/daughter who was left behind, I am certainly happy to answer any questions about Kaitlyn or Rhonda ( my sister and mother, respectively). I plan to post more when time permits; I'm actually being a very bad student by typing this in class, but wanted to respond before I forgot. Now back to learning about chest tubes and that nasty 'ole hemothorax

-Stephanie

 

[drdisney]

Stephanie I realize this is weird, given that I'm a stranger on an internet message board, but I think about you a lot and was actually just talking about you with someone a week or two ago. I was so touched and affected by your mother's blogging about Kaitlyn, and I was heartbroken when she died, not only for her, but also (especially) for you and your father, who surely needed her even more about Kaitlyn's death. I hope you're doing OK.

 

[sealford]

Stephanie I realize this is weird, given that I'm a stranger on an internet message board, but I think about you a lot and was actually just talking about you with someone a week or two ago. I was so touched and affected by your mother's blogging about Kaitlyn, and I was heartbroken when she died, not only for her, but also (especially) for you and your father, who surely needed her even more about Kaitlyn's death. I hope you're doing OK.

Thank you so much for responding. My mother's blog was so heartfelt and poignant that it often reduced me to tears. She passed away right as I was starting my Labor and Delivery rotation, which was extremely difficult. I was also starting a psych rotation, and was actually switched to a different facility instead of the psychiatric hospital here because they thought it would be too harmful for me. Interestingly enough, it's the place I plan to work at...go figure. I guess I love psych so much because I understand it all too well. It meant a lot to me that you responded; for that, I am deeply grateful.

 

[TheDBird90]

Um, why is Pamela Wible banned?