Dr. Benjamin Carson's Health Care Reform Ideas

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But how closed minded of you to insinuate that flat earth theory should be construed as negative.

On a side note has anyone here actually looked at he flat earth forums?
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/

To this day I'm still not sure if these people are really sincere in their beliefs, like to debate, get a fix from the attention that this get them or all of the above XDD

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His argument wasnt that we should give 10%. His argument was that we should have a simplified tax structure and one that is not aimed at "punishing the rich," instead attempt to be equitable.

A reasonable argument: We can't afford for everyone to get healthcare, taxing the rich to give everyone healcare hurts the economy, that giving away every necessity of life disincentivies employment. The short term gains of government charity masks longer term economic and cultural consequences of government dependancy. The best thing for this country, including the poor of this country, is a free market where the poor get their healthcare they can pay for. Government sponsored healthcare is a mistake.

Also a reasonable argument: We are rich enough as a nation for healthcare to be a universal right. The subsidized services of education, utilities, and roads, have not made us dependent but interdependent, we are strengthened through our unity. Also morally the rich are ultimately made rich not independently but with the coopearation of every member of this nation, and therefore the rich should pay what it takes to insure the entire nation from the surpluess which we have all earned, but which somehow they have come to exclusively own. Government sponsored healthcare makes sense

Not a reasonable argument: The rich shouldn't need to pay taxes, the poor should save the money they don't have in case they need medical care, and somehow the government will give the poor the money they need for healthcare but don't have despite the fact that the rich don't pay taxes. The government is bad, therefore we need to get rid of its burocrasy. Except for the burocracy that will let us transfer money directly into poor people's HSAs in exactly the amount they need with just the right amount of oversight. That's this guy's plan. And its stupid. Not 'different', but stupid. He takes the part of the first plan that everyone likes (you don't need to pay taxes!) and jams it together with the part of the second plan everyone like (everyone gets healthcare!) and tries to just ride on by the fact that those two things don't go together. The numbers don't add up, and his plan doesn't make sense.

When you say everyone is going to pay a lot less, and somehow everyone is magically going to get the same amount of stuff anyway, then chances are you didn't do the math.
 
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Yes there is. By stating this you are marginalizing the decades+ worth of repeatable scientific experimentation and research that has allowed us to progress.
Right. When you turn on your computer to type out these ridiculous replies I'm sure you're secretly pleading with it to work, as the electromagnetic theory the circuits are based on is so shaky and as equally unprovable as clown rope gravity that there's a chance it could all just fall apart due to our ignorance.

These hypothetical constructs you're throwing out there have no relevance in the real world, so exactly what point is your "philosophy minor" mind trying to make?

No relevance in the real world??? If you would like to take it that route then neither does the theory of evolution. In it's own standing, the theory of evolution says that evolution has no affect on the individual and would therefore be meaningless to both me and you and everyone living in the 'real world'. So what is the point of it? Knowing that Travis the chimp and I both came from the same ancestor does what for me?

My point is simple: do not refer to anything that cannot be proven as fact.

To believe in evolution requires faith in a system that controls all life. Atheist call it random mutations, Christians call it God. We all have faith in something, science or religion. Whether you would like to admit it or not, it is true.
 
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A reasonable argument: We can't afford for everyone to get healthcare, taxing the rich to give everyone healcare hurts the economy, that giving away every necessity of life disincentivies employment. The short term gains of government charity masks longer term economic and cultural consequences of government dependancy. The best thing for this country, including the poor of this country, is a free market where the poor get their healthcare they can pay for. Government sponsored healthcare is a mistake.

Also a reasonable argument: We are rich enough as a nation for healthcare to be a universal right. The subsidized services of education, utilities, and roads, have not made us dependent but interdependent, we are strengthened through our unity. Also morally the rich are ultimately made rich not independently but with the coopearation of every member of this nation, and therefore the rich should pay what it takes to insure the entire nation from the surpluess which we have all earned, but which somehow they have come to exclusively own. Government sponsored healthcare makes sense

Not a reasonable argument: The rich shouldn't need to pay taxes, the poor should save the money they don't have in case they need medical care, and somehow the government will give the poor the money they need for healthcare but don't have despite the fact that the rich don't pay taxes. The government is bad, therefore we need to get rid of its burocrasy. Except for the burocracy that will let us transfer money directly into poor people's HSAs in exactly the amount they need with just the right amount of oversight. That's this guy's plan. And its stupid. Not 'different', but stupid. He takes the part of the first plan that everyone likes (you don't need to pay taxes!) and jams it together with the part of the second plan everyone like (everyone gets healthcare!) and tries to just ride on by the fact that those two things don't go together. The numbers don't add up, and his plan doesn't make sense.

When you say everyone is going to pay a lot less, and somehow everyone is magically going to get the same amount of stuff anyway, then chances are you didn't do the math.

+1

Couldn't have said it better myself!
 
My point is this: if someone says "Christianity is demonstrably untrue and subsequently all Christians are fools." no one bats an eye. If someone says "I believe there are some obvious flaws in theory of evolution. I believe there is, based on my life experience, studies and observation of the world around me, a higher power and Christianity seems the most plausible." that person is immediately dismissed.
No one? How about all those christians that make up the majority or the US population? just because you in the minority on an internet forum doesnt mean that's at all indicative of the real world. And I would cringe at that statement as well, just like I cringe at things like "pastafarianism" and other stupid **** some other atheists do. For your other proposed statement, if you stop at higher power, neither I nor anyone can really say much of anything beyond we couldn't rely on your personal experiences as they are your own, but we can't really say anything more.


Thanks for proving my point. People consider themselves tolerant and pride themselves on diversity while categorically dismissing those with dissimilar views from there own.
Fair enough; it happens.
 
My point is this: if someone says "Christianity is demonstrably untrue and subsequently all Christians are fools." no one bats an eye. If someone says "I believe there are some obvious flaws in theory of evolution. I believe there is, based on my life experience, studies and observation of the world around me, a higher power and Christianity seems the most plausible." that person is immediately dismissed.



Thanks for proving my point. People consider themselves tolerant and pride themselves on diversity while categorically dismissing those with dissimilar views from there own.

No one bats an eye because that statement is true, and the second set of ideas is false.

Who said I'm tolerant? I'm incredibly intolerant of bad ideas.
 
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No one bats an eye because that statement is true, and the second set of ideas is false.

Who said I'm tolerant? I'm incredibly intolerant of bad ideas.

This. I don't say "Christians are fools", but I would say that Christianity is foolish, even if it is not PC. Sorry, but open-mindedness does not obligate us to patronize poor reasoning.

Someone, I forget who, mentioned "obvious flaws" in the theory of evolution. Perhaps it would be more constructive for this thread if you were to mention the ones that come to mind, and we can discuss them rationally? I've expressed awareness of reams of evidence that I am happy to share with skeptics.
 
Watch it. It's only a half hour and definitely worth the time.

He is a proponent of a simplified tax code, investing in education to hopefully decrease penale expenditures, increased HSAs with the ability to pass them on to your children, giving indigent people HSAs instead of Medicaid so that there would be some personal responsibility and (hopefully) decreased overhead. He is also not fond of political correctness. Of note, he says nothing about creationism, vaccinations, etc, yet people have gone off on that tangent and not talked about any of his ideas.
.

Sounds like conservative talking points to be perfectly honest. Simplified tax code is code-speak for implementing an even regressive tax structure. The US already has the most regressive tax code in the developed world. When the GOP primary candidates were putting out their "simplified tax plans" they were invariably incredibly regressive and would fail to meet the basic needs for revenue. At one point, Rick Perry put out a plan that could fit on a postcard and consisted of a flat tax with no capital gains tax. Yes, our tax code isn't perfect, but there are far more things we can do to it than scrap the entire thing and place the burden of taxes on the lower and middle classes, as would be the case for hte majority of these simplified proposals. For example, the SS tax is only applicable on the first 110k you earn, making it one of the most regressive taxes on the books. Simply reversing this, making the first 110k exempt, would fund Social Security for another generation. Closing these sorts of regressive structures and rolling back capital gains tax (which are nominally at 15%) to their Clinton-era equivalents would drastically alter the deficit debate.


An HSA plan for everyone sounds great but it really fails to comprehend the magnitude of the problem. Why are we placing even more burden on those who can least afford it by forcing them to put 10-15% of their income into an HSA when they already live paycheck to paycheck. What is that telling the single mother, who is single because the father ran off when he learned she was pregnant (and who got pregnant because states aren't allowed to teach about safe sex anyways) who works 2 jobs to sustain her family about personal responsibility? The whole notion of the welfare queen has been dead for 20 years ever since welfare reform in the '90s, which again, is the trigger code for "poor people". And an HSA still doesn't protect against major procedures anyways. That 500-1000 bucks you have saved in your HSA goes poof when you need a broken bone reset. And the talk about reducing overhead for Medicare/Medicaid shows how out of touch Dr. Carson is, because both of programs are literally an order of magnitude less in overhead costs than private insurance.


This is a bigger issue than just healthcare. Those who profess to be the most religious are also those most ignorant of what their religion actually says. The "party of Jesus", as the GOP likes to call itself, would have driven Jesus out of the party 40 years ago for heresy. The GOP is a like a grim, Orwellian parody of what a true Christian party would look like. Their one claim to that title is their opposition to abortions and that proclaimation only exists because of modern attitudes and is not supported by anything in the Bible. In fact, the Bible's sole mention of abortion is in the Old Testament (which Christians don't even care about unless it's condemning gays) and the punishment for inducing an abortion (which in those days could only reliably come by beating the absolute **** out of the woman) was a fine of a few shekels. Other than that, there is no biblical basis to opposition to abortion. On nearly every issue, the GOP/conservatives/evangelicals/born-again Christians would stand in stark opposition to Jesus' teachings. Those who claim to be devout Christians today would have been cast out of Jesus' circle for being antithetical to his teachings.
 
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Sounds like conservative talking points to be perfectly honest. Simplified tax code is code-speak for implementing an even regressive tax structure. The US already has the most regressive tax code in the developed world. When the GOP primary candidates were putting out their "simplified tax plans" they were invariably incredibly regressive and would fail to meet the basic needs for revenue. At one point, Rick Perry put out a plan that could fit on a postcard and consisted of a flat tax with no capital gains tax. Yes, our tax code isn't perfect, but there are far more things we can do to it than scrap the entire thing and place the burden of taxes on the lower and middle classes, as would be the case for hte majority of these simplified proposals. For example, the SS tax is only applicable on the first 110k you earn, making it one of the most regressive taxes on the books. Simply reversing this, making the first 110k exempt, would fund Social Security for another generation. Closing these sorts of regressive structures and rolling back capital gains tax (which are nominally at 15%) to their Clinton-era equivalents would drastically alter the deficit debate.


An HSA plan for everyone sounds great but it really fails to comprehend the magnitude of the problem. Why are we placing even more burden on those who can least afford it by forcing them to put 10-15% of their income into an HSA when they already live paycheck to paycheck. What is that telling the single mother, who is single because the father ran off when he learned she was pregnant (and who got pregnant because states aren't allowed to teach about safe sex anyways) who works 2 jobs to sustain her family about personal responsibility? The whole notion of the welfare queen has been dead for 20 years ever since welfare reform in the '90s, which again, is the trigger code for "poor people". And an HSA still doesn't protect against major procedures anyways. That 500-1000 bucks you have saved in your HSA goes poof when you need a broken bone reset. And the talk about reducing overhead for Medicare/Medicaid shows how out of touch Dr. Carson is, because both of programs are literally an order of magnitude less in overhead costs than private insurance.


This is a bigger issue than just healthcare. Those who profess to be the most religious are also those most ignorant of what their religion actually says. The "party of Jesus", as the GOP likes to call itself, would have driven Jesus out of the party 40 years ago for heresy. The GOP is a like a grim, Orwellian parody of what a true Christian party would look like. Their one claim to that title is their opposition to abortions and that proclaimation only exists because of modern attitudes and is not supported by anything in the Bible. In fact, the Bible's sole mention of abortion is in the Old Testament (which Christians don't even care about unless it's condemning gays) and the punishment for inducing an abortion (which in those days could only reliably come by beating the absolute **** out of the woman) was a fine of a few shekels. Other than that, there is no biblical basis to opposition to abortion. On nearly every issue, the GOP/conservatives/evangelicals/born-again Christians would stand in stark opposition to Jesus' teachings. Those who claim to be devout Christians today would have been cast out of Jesus' circle for being antithetical to his teachings.
this post made me throw up in my mouth
 
No one bats an eye because that statement is true, and the second set of ideas is false.

Who said I'm tolerant? I'm incredibly intolerant of bad ideas.

This. I don't say "Christians are fools", but I would say that Christianity is foolish, even if it is not PC. Sorry, but open-mindedness does not obligate us to patronize poor reasoning.

Someone, I forget who, mentioned "obvious flaws" in the theory of evolution. Perhaps it would be more constructive for this thread if you were to mention the ones that come to mind, and we can discuss them rationally? I've expressed awareness of reams of evidence that I am happy to share with skeptics.

This is incredibly sad and bigoted, that at this point in time people are OK publicly bashing religion. This really is not OK. What is worse is that I suspect the next several posts will simply be going against my following statements as opposed to other SDN members saying "wow, I can't believe you would just agree with the statements that 'all Christians are fools' and 'Christianity is foolishness.' that's not OK and theres no place for bashing a religion on this forum.". Please, prove me wrong.

To say that there aren't obvious flaw in the theory of evolution would be foolish and short sided. It certainly takes a leap of faith to take our knowledge of evolution on a microbiological scale and extrapolate that to say that a single cell organism came to life spontaneously and slowly grew into multicellular organisms, then vertebrates, the monkeys, then self-aware people. I understand that many people believe this to be true, and that's fine, and it is plausible, but to say "well, this is the most obvious thing in the world, there's no way anyone could poke holes in this argument and if you don't believe it you're wrong and stupid" is obviously foolish. It's a theory. There is evidence behind it and I respect your freedom to believe it and talk about it. There is a substantial portion of the population that believes it. Even still, it's a theory. People act like it's an ultimate truth and if you don't believe it, then you are a toothless redneck - that's just not true. All I ask is that you respect my belief and my freedom to talk about it.

Please note, I have no interest in debating evolution vs. creationism on an Internet forum, it just seems worth mentioning that you should not treat your own beliefs as an undeniable truth while categorically dismissing others' beliefs.


Sounds like conservative talking points to be perfectly honest. Simplified tax code is code-speak for implementing an even regressive tax structure. The US already has the most regressive tax code in the developed world. When the GOP primary candidates were putting out their "simplified tax plans" they were invariably incredibly regressive and would fail to meet the basic needs for revenue. At one point, Rick Perry put out a plan that could fit on a postcard and consisted of a flat tax with no capital gains tax. Yes, our tax code isn't perfect, but there are far more things we can do to it than scrap the entire thing and place the burden of taxes on the lower and middle classes, as would be the case for hte majority of these simplified proposals. For example, the SS tax is only applicable on the first 110k you earn, making it one of the most regressive taxes on the books. Simply reversing this, making the first 110k exempt, would fund Social Security for another generation. Closing these sorts of regressive structures and rolling back capital gains tax (which are nominally at 15%) to their Clinton-era equivalents would drastically alter the deficit debate.


An HSA plan for everyone sounds great but it really fails to comprehend the magnitude of the problem. Why are we placing even more burden on those who can least afford it by forcing them to put 10-15% of their income into an HSA when they already live paycheck to paycheck. What is that telling the single mother, who is single because the father ran off when he learned she was pregnant (and who got pregnant because states aren't allowed to teach about safe sex anyways) who works 2 jobs to sustain her family about personal responsibility? The whole notion of the welfare queen has been dead for 20 years ever since welfare reform in the '90s, which again, is the trigger code for "poor people". And an HSA still doesn't protect against major procedures anyways. That 500-1000 bucks you have saved in your HSA goes poof when you need a broken bone reset. And the talk about reducing overhead for Medicare/Medicaid shows how out of touch Dr. Carson is, because both of programs are literally an order of magnitude less in overhead costs than private insurance.


This is a bigger issue than just healthcare. Those who profess to be the most religious are also those most ignorant of what their religion actually says. The "party of Jesus", as the GOP likes to call itself, would have driven Jesus out of the party 40 years ago for heresy. The GOP is a like a grim, Orwellian parody of what a true Christian party would look like. Their one claim to that title is their opposition to abortions and that proclaimation only exists because of modern attitudes and is not supported by anything in the Bible. In fact, the Bible's sole mention of abortion is in the Old Testament (which Christians don't even care about unless it's condemning gays) and the punishment for inducing an abortion (which in those days could only reliably come by beating the absolute **** out of the woman) was a fine of a few shekels. Other than that, there is no biblical basis to opposition to abortion. On nearly every issue, the GOP/conservatives/evangelicals/born-again Christians would stand in stark opposition to Jesus' teachings. Those who claim to be devout Christians today would have been cast out of Jesus' circle for being antithetical to his teachings.

There is certainly a sad reality to some of your statements. I disagree with some of your statements about taxation, but that won't get settled here.

The republican party does claim to be the 'Christian' party, but I suspect Jesus wouldn't be a member of the republican party. In fact, I'm sure he wouldn't. Even a lot of Churches are pretty far removed from the Gospel. It's really quite sad. Unfortunately you can't assume that the modern church represents Christianity. That's why I went to the church I went to in undergrad - it was a place where the preacher preached grace, unconditional love, care for the poor and widows and forgiveness - and the church practiced what they preached. I believe this is sadly the minority, but don't assume that because many people are practicing a non-biblical version of Chritianity that the faith is useless. I would challenge you to read through the four gospels and see if you agree with what Jesus said, not with what most modern Christians do or say that Jesus said.

Concerning abortion, the verse most applied to the topic is not what you referenced, it's where God says "I knew you before the womb.". Regardless, the tragedy is that modern Christianity fails to recognize that women who undergo abortions are hurting and, although I think that abortion is a sin based on how I read the Bible, it doesn't mean that the woman is condemned, it doesn't mean you are better than her, it means she had an abortion. Period.



Sorry if any of those sentences were poorly formed/run-ons. I try not to type anything this long on my iPad.
 
To say that there aren't obvious flaw in the theory of evolution would be foolish and short sided. It certainly takes a leap of faith to take our knowledge of evolution on a microbiological scale and extrapolate that to say that a single cell organism came to life spontaneously and slowly grew into multicellular organisms, then vertebrates, the monkeys, then self-aware people.

I have identified your problem with evolution. You don't understand it.
 
No relevance in the real world??? If you would like to take it that route then neither does the theory of evolution. In it's own standing, the theory of evolution says that evolution has no affect on the individual and would therefore be meaningless to both me and you and everyone living in the 'real world'. So what is the point of it? Knowing that Travis the chimp and I both came from the same ancestor does what for me?

My point is simple: do not refer to anything that cannot be proven as fact.

To believe in evolution requires faith in a system that controls all life. Atheist call it random mutations, Christians call it God. We all have faith in something, science or religion. Whether you would like to admit it or not, it is true.

:smack:

Just to be clear, your view fails to account for literally all of the progress of science, medicine, and technology. You might want to make a point of brushing up on the important differences between induction and deduction. As another user said earlier in the thread, the only things we can "prove," or deduce, are mathematical and/or logical problems. I.e. reducing a logical argument to modus tollens or modus ponens. We can't "prove" anything else in this way. Not gravity, the laws of thermodynamics, or anything else empirical. The mistake you're making is that you're assuming that because we can't deduce anything with empirical observation (or "prove" it in the same sense as we can prove a logical argument that can be reduced to modus tollens) that everything automatically has the same level of plausibility.
 
All I know is that Jesus will come in on a white horse during the rapture and take me to paradise.
 
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:smack:

Just to be clear, your view fails to account for literally all of the progress of science, medicine, and technology. You might want to make a point of brushing up on the important differences between induction and deduction. As another user said earlier in the thread, the only things we can "prove," or deduce, are mathematical and/or logical problems. I.e. reducing a logical argument to modus tollens or modus ponens. We can't "prove" anything else in this way. Not gravity, the laws of thermodynamics, or anything else empirical. The mistake you're making is that you're assuming that because we can't deduce anything with empirical observation (or "prove" it in the same sense as we can prove a logical argument that can be reduced to modus tollens) that everything automatically has the same level of plausibility.

And even then, Godel proved that mathematics isn't an absolute nor logically-infallible field of study.
 
All I have gotten out of this thread is that it is poor in taste to write about religion on forums....or in general.
 
Right. When you turn on your computer to type out these ridiculous replies I'm sure you're secretly pleading with it to work, as the electromagnetic theory the circuits are based on is so shaky and as equally unprovable as clown rope gravity that there's a chance it could all just fall apart due to our ignorance.

I don't think so.

I am an EE major.

For circuits, we have:

Kirchhoff's Current Law (KCL)
Kirchhoff's Voltage Law (KVL)

Electromagnetics:

Coulomb's Law
Faraday's Law


.....

Along with a large assortment of other laws.

Plus, I don't think we would have 3.0 GHz processors doing the calculations for our computers in this day and age if we were relying just on "theory".

Stop BSing and being a dips***.
 
I don't think so.

I am an EE major.

For circuits, we have:

Kirchhoff's Current Law (KCL)
Kirchhoff's Voltage Law (KVL)

Electromagnetics:

Coulomb's Law
Faraday's Law


.....

Along with a large assortment of other laws.

Plus, I don't think we would have 3.0 GHz processors doing the calculations for our computers in this day and age if we were relying just on "theory".

Stop BSing and being a dips***.

Sarcasm.
 
I don't think so.

I am an EE major.

For circuits, we have:

Kirchhoff's Current Law (KCL)
Kirchhoff's Voltage Law (KVL)

Electromagnetics:

Coulomb's Law
Faraday's Law


.....

Along with a large assortment of other laws.

Plus, I don't think we would have 3.0 GHz processors doing the calculations for our computers in this day and age if we were relying just on "theory".

Stop BSing and being a dips***.

The poster quote was simply taking the colloquial definition of theory instead of the scientific one to prove a point. Theory, in the layman's sense, means a conjecture or guess. In contrast, in science, everything is a theory because, ultimately, nothing is definitively provable.
 
I don't think so.

I am an EE major.

For circuits, we have:

Kirchhoff's Current Law (KCL)
Kirchhoff's Voltage Law (KVL)

Electromagnetics:

Coulomb's Law
Faraday's Law


.....

Along with a large assortment of other laws.

Plus, I don't think we would have 3.0 GHz processors doing the calculations for our computers in this day and age if we were relying just on "theory".

Stop BSing and being a dips***.
I completely agree with what you're saying. I was being sarcastic in my reply to the OP I quoted.
 
You can believe whatever you want. I entirely agree. At the same time, I have every right to believe whatever I want about your beliefs themselves. I went out of my way to assure no personal offense.

I love talking about one of my very best friends as an example - he is formidably intelligent. He is an outstanding engineer who is doing great work on deep brain stimulation for his Ph.D., and at this point he can solve math problems I can't even comprehend...and I, unlike him, was a math major in undergrad. Yet, he is devoutly religious. How do I resolve this apparent paradox? After talking to him enough about his beliefs (respectfully, the same way he treats mine), I noticed a vein of circular reasoning running through his logic. While his argument was certainly self-consistent, I realized that he had never taken seriously the possibility that maaaaaaybe there was nothing supernatural at all, and his arguments became very feeble in this light. It also "helps" that he hadn't studied evolution, biogenesis, and the like nearly as much as I had, and could not discuss these topics as fluently as I can. All his effort was subtly redirected to confirming the theistic beliefs he grew up with (which, by the way, include guided evolution - he thinks people who deny the reality of evolution altogether are *****s). While I would certainly not cite this as evidence of his intelligence, I don't see it as evidence against it either - the sum total of his achievements drowns out his flawed reasoning here. I just think he's too distracted by everything he has going on (and he does a LOT) to seriously re-examine this part of his belief system...and why should he? It works for him!

As for your second point: it was certainly quite a sensational theory when Darwin first posited it! As Sagan points out, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", and science has risen to the occasion. We have the fossil record and its breathtaking display of "intermediates" between familiar species. We have the profound universality of the genetic code, and countless other molecular artifacts of our shared heritage. We have examples of evolution occurring in human history, when we remapped the canine psyche and made dogs our most loyal friends (and similar experiments have demonstrated in foxes as well). Really, the evidence amassed is indisputable at this point, and you have no basis to dismiss it without rolling up your sleeves and digging around in it for a while. I don't "believe" in evolution - I look at the evidence, I think about the theory, and I accept its reality. You cannot just "not believe" in evolution. The reality of evolution is not an opinion - one of us is wrong. Unfortunately, you are not interested in working to either rectify your own beliefs, or trying to fix mine. I am very open-minded, when it comes to actual evidence and logical reasoning. I absolutely will NOT stand by silently while you talk about evolution being "just" an unfounded theory, out of some ill-conceived notion of "tolerance". You may be entitled to ignorance if that is your choice, but you are certainly not entitled to promulgating it.

This is incredibly sad and bigoted, that at this point in time people are OK publicly bashing religion. This really is not OK. What is worse is that I suspect the next several posts will simply be going against my following statements as opposed to other SDN members saying "wow, I can't believe you would just agree with the statements that 'all Christians are fools' and 'Christianity is foolishness.' that's not OK and theres no place for bashing a religion on this forum.". Please, prove me wrong.

To say that there aren't obvious flaw in the theory of evolution would be foolish and short sided. It certainly takes a leap of faith to take our knowledge of evolution on a microbiological scale and extrapolate that to say that a single cell organism came to life spontaneously and slowly grew into multicellular organisms, then vertebrates, the monkeys, then self-aware people. I understand that many people believe this to be true, and that's fine, and it is plausible, but to say "well, this is the most obvious thing in the world, there's no way anyone could poke holes in this argument and if you don't believe it you're wrong and stupid" is obviously foolish. It's a theory. There is evidence behind it and I respect your freedom to believe it and talk about it. There is a substantial portion of the population that believes it. Even still, it's a theory. People act like it's an ultimate truth and if you don't believe it, then you are a toothless redneck - that's just not true. All I ask is that you respect my belief and my freedom to talk about it.

Please note, I have no interest in debating evolution vs. creationism on an Internet forum, it just seems worth mentioning that you should not treat your own beliefs as an undeniable truth while categorically dismissing others' beliefs.
 
Ben Carson is a creationist? Damn that's disappointing. I had no idea.
 
After thinking about how this messy argument got started, I feel like I owe FSU and other posters who agree with him/her a partial apology. Evolution supporters "started it" in this thread, and it is antithetical to my beliefs to reject Carson's argument just because he is a creationist.
 
Note that I never said evolution was entirely unfounded, quite the contrary. I explicitly said there is evidence behind it and that it is plausible. It also seems like a poor choice to call me ignorant - you know nothing about me, my knowledge base or my intellect. I've studied both sides quite a bit. I suspect I would be similar to your friend in many regards and I would most closely align myself with those called "guided evolutionists." Even still, the complete dismissal and disrespect of religious beliefs shown by several members on this site is just plain wrong.

My problem was that the entire thread was derailed to dismiss some interesting ideas because of something entirely unrelated, the fact that Dr. Carson is a Christian. The attitude that Christians are of inferior intellect, the open contempt shown towards those who believe differently from some posters and the fact that no non-Christians said "whoa guys, this isn't cool - they may not agree with us, and I think they're wrong, but that's the foundation of someone's belief system. Maybe we should have some hint of respect" is offensive.
 
Note that I never said evolution was entirely unfounded, quite the contrary. I explicitly said there is evidence behind it and that it is plausible. It also seems like a poor choice to call me ignorant - you know nothing about me, my knowledge base or my intellect. I've studied both sides quite a bit. I suspect I would be similar to your friend in many regards and I would most closely align myself with those called "guided evolutionists." Even still, the complete dismissal and disrespect of religious beliefs shown by several members on this site is just plain wrong.

My problem was that the entire thread was derailed to dismiss some interesting ideas because of something entirely unrelated, the fact that Dr. Carson is a Christian. The attitude that Christians are of inferior intellect, the open contempt shown towards those who believe differently from some posters and the fact that no non-Christians said "whoa guys, this isn't cool - they may not agree with us, and I think they're wrong, but that's the foundation of someone's belief system. Maybe we should have some hint of respect" is offensive.

That's because people are trying to ignore us, not because they silently condone our posts. To that end, this is my last post in the thread on this topic - this is going nowhere. I do apologize for any personal offense - despite my (well-founded and carefully considered) dismissal of your beliefs, it was never my intent to suggest you were anything other than a presumably well-read, intelligent person who was wrong on this particular topic.

This is a textbook example of a non-apology apology XD

I apologized for sounding like I was personally attacking him. I am not very sorry for calling his beliefs out and being dismissive of them. This is not hypocritical.
 
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That's because people are trying to ignore us, not because they silently condone our posts. To that end, this is my last post in the thread on this topic - this is going nowhere. I do apologize for any personal offense - despite my (well-founded and carefully considered) dismissal of your beliefs, it was never my intent to suggest you were anything other than a presumably well-read, intelligent person who was wrong on this particular topic.
This is a textbook example of a non-apology apology XD
 
Note that I never said evolution was entirely unfounded, quite the contrary. I explicitly said there is evidence behind it and that it is plausible. It also seems like a poor choice to call me ignorant - you know nothing about me, my knowledge base or my intellect. I've studied both sides quite a bit.

You say that, but then you go and state that accepting evolution requires a "leap of faith" based on extrapolation of knowledge from a "microbiological scale." And that we allegedly evolved from monkeys. If you had actually studied the topic to the extent you imply, your foot would not slip so readily in to your mouth.
 
My problem was that the entire thread was derailed to dismiss some interesting ideas because of something entirely unrelated, the fact that Dr. Carson is a Christian.

Dr. Carson's Christian faith is irrelevant. It is his status as a young earth creationist (YEC) that calls into question his capacity for objective reasoning.
 
I am agnostic. Dr. Carson is a 7th day adventist, young earth creationist...but can I separate those things from his brilliance and all of the things that he has done in medicine? why yes I can..because his ideas are much more common sense than our current healthcare system. Dr. Carson may be a christian , but even he separates that from his job....do any of you think you are smarter than he is? gfto. doesn't matter if he's christian/10
 
Sounds like conservative talking points to be perfectly honest. Simplified tax code is code-speak for implementing an even regressive tax structure. The US already has the most regressive tax code in the developed world. When the GOP primary candidates were putting out their "simplified tax plans" they were invariably incredibly regressive and would fail to meet the basic needs for revenue. At one point, Rick Perry put out a plan that could fit on a postcard and consisted of a flat tax with no capital gains tax. Yes, our tax code isn't perfect, but there are far more things we can do to it than scrap the entire thing and place the burden of taxes on the lower and middle classes, as would be the case for hte majority of these simplified proposals. For example, the SS tax is only applicable on the first 110k you earn, making it one of the most regressive taxes on the books. Simply reversing this, making the first 110k exempt, would fund Social Security for another generation. Closing these sorts of regressive structures and rolling back capital gains tax (which are nominally at 15%) to their Clinton-era equivalents would drastically alter the deficit debate.


An HSA plan for everyone sounds great but it really fails to comprehend the magnitude of the problem. Why are we placing even more burden on those who can least afford it by forcing them to put 10-15% of their income into an HSA when they already live paycheck to paycheck. What is that telling the single mother, who is single because the father ran off when he learned she was pregnant (and who got pregnant because states aren't allowed to teach about safe sex anyways) who works 2 jobs to sustain her family about personal responsibility? The whole notion of the welfare queen has been dead for 20 years ever since welfare reform in the '90s, which again, is the trigger code for "poor people". And an HSA still doesn't protect against major procedures anyways. That 500-1000 bucks you have saved in your HSA goes poof when you need a broken bone reset. And the talk about reducing overhead for Medicare/Medicaid shows how out of touch Dr. Carson is, because both of programs are literally an order of magnitude less in overhead costs than private insurance.


This is a bigger issue than just healthcare. Those who profess to be the most religious are also those most ignorant of what their religion actually says. The "party of Jesus", as the GOP likes to call itself, would have driven Jesus out of the party 40 years ago for heresy. The GOP is a like a grim, Orwellian parody of what a true Christian party would look like. Their one claim to that title is their opposition to abortions and that proclaimation only exists because of modern attitudes and is not supported by anything in the Bible. In fact, the Bible's sole mention of abortion is in the Old Testament (which Christians don't even care about unless it's condemning gays) and the punishment for inducing an abortion (which in those days could only reliably come by beating the absolute **** out of the woman) was a fine of a few shekels. Other than that, there is no biblical basis to opposition to abortion. On nearly every issue, the GOP/conservatives/evangelicals/born-again Christians would stand in stark opposition to Jesus' teachings. Those who claim to be devout Christians today would have been cast out of Jesus' circle for being antithetical to his teachings.

sorry bro, urine ijet
 
No relevance in the real world??? If you would like to take it that route then neither does the theory of evolution. In it's own standing, the theory of evolution says that evolution has no affect on the individual and would therefore be meaningless to both me and you and everyone living in the 'real world'. So what is the point of it? Knowing that Travis the chimp and I both came from the same ancestor does what for me?

My point is simple: do not refer to anything that cannot be proven as fact.

To believe in evolution requires faith in a system that controls all life. Atheist call it random mutations, Christians call it God. We all have faith in something, science or religion. Whether you would like to admit it or not, it is true.

Your post has caused me physical pain. I just thought you should know.
 
I am agnostic. Dr. Carson is a 7th day adventist, young earth creationist...but can I separate those things from his brilliance and all of the things that he has done in medicine? why yes I can..because his ideas are much more common sense than our current healthcare system. Dr. Carson may be a christian , but even he separates that from his job....do any of you think you are smarter than he is? gfto. doesn't matter if he's christian/10

I don't think anyone would mind if he was a Christian. I myself believe a higher power (God, if you will) created the universe, but within that universe, all that can be assumed is what can be proven with observable evidence. I can't take anyone who calls themselves a scientist seriously if they subscribe to a belief (YEC) which completely ignores mountains of evidence that denies it. If you want to believe in God, that's all well and good, but believing in something that is counter intuitive to everything we can observe about the universe, and at the same time have the intelligence to get where he is today, well...It seems like hypocrisy to me.
 
why yes I can..because his ideas are much more common sense than our current healthcare system.

Common sense does not equal good. Relying on HSAs would cause a litany easily foreseeable of problems. Even the least complicated health care structure (single payer) rapidly becomes mind numbingly complex when you attempt to manage it. When someone is peddling an idea, the apparent simplicity of it is usually proportional to the amount of BS behind it.
 
Firstly, enough of the creationism crap. The good doctor not believing in evolution says much more about his undergrad's biology department than it does about his ability to create health care policy.

I watched a shortened video of his speech.

What I'm gathering he is proposing is that instead of typical insurance policies, all Americans pay a certain amount, untaxed into their HSAs, which can compound over their lifetime, be allocated for healthcare when needed, and rolled over to offspring if some funds are not needed. He is also suggesting combating the bureaucracy of government meddling in healthcare by removing current programs and simply allocating funding from those programs (probably a smaller amount) into the HSAs of individuals/families under a certain income level. He also suggests that putting the money in the hands of the consumer will give them the motivation to make cost-saving choices (i.e. making a clinic appt with PCP rather than hitting up the expensive ER).

Here are my issues with the ideas he laid out in his speech:
1) He is trying to replace a bureaucracy with a system that would be responsible for determining who gets federal funds in the HSAs. Which would take a lot of number crunching and staff I would imagine, considering this is on a national scale. So he's replacing one bureaucracy with another in my eyes.
2) While he has a very valid point that putting the money in the hands of the consumer could lead to cost saving practices, it could also exacerbate damaging habits already present in the population. If people are paying out of their HSA for a PCP visit they may avoid the doc until they get really sick, especially if their HSA isn't very large (saving for possible emergencies).
3) Issues getting more serious now. There seems to be a disregard for the scale of payments into HSAs. Individuals making 100k or so a year could easily put enough aside to cover basic healthcare costs, but individuals making 25k a year might not be able to. This is where he suggests redirecting current funding to cover the difference. But the math gets silly fast. To what extent do we subsidize? Say the gov't determines that 10k (arbitrary) a year should be put into an HSA. For the person with a 100k salary, that is 10% of their earnings. 10% is a reasonable contribution probably. But 10% is only $2500 for the guy making 25k a year. Does the gov't put up 7500 a year to make sure everyone has an equitable amount going into their HSA? I doubt that. Especially considering populations with the lowest incomes often present serious health conditions (or at least just as often as wealthy populations) this should be something looked at very seriously in any plan.
4) The most serious issue. The whole point of insurance is missed. For basic healthcare the HSA would work just fine. Healthy people could put away 10% of their income a year and have plenty to spare and save up. But how many people are totally healthy? What about medical emergencies? What about serious illnesses like cancer? Even if the average person has been putting away their average amount year after year, if they come down with cancer, it is entirely possible that it will all be gone very quickly. How would young families plan to have children, how much money should they have saved up in an HSA for the baby? What if the baby is seriously ill upon birth? Insurance is designed for this reason. You create a pool of people, everyone pays their set amount per year. The majority of people in that pool in a given year will not use as much as they pay for in their premiums, so that the small number who do (medical emergencies, serious illness, etc) can be absorbed by the insurance company. This means the insurance company still profits and exists, and people are protected from out of pocket (or out of HSA in his plan) payment for medical services.

I agree with above posters that the simplicity speaks volumes. The doctor raises some good points and his goals are not off-base at all, but I think his ideas lack the depth of serious health care reform ideas.

If I have misunderstood his stances in my first paragraph, please point it out.
 
I am agnostic. Dr. Carson is a 7th day adventist, young earth creationist...but can I separate those things from his brilliance and all of the things that he has done in medicine? why yes I can..because his ideas are much more common sense than our current healthcare system. Dr. Carson may be a christian , but even he separates that from his job....do any of you think you are smarter than he is? gfto. doesn't matter if he's christian/10

No, not really, they aren't common sense. They are incredibly regressive, would punish those at the margins of society and not do anything to control healthcare costs at any rate.
 
I don't think anyone would mind if he was a Christian. I myself believe a higher power (God, if you will) created the universe, but within that universe, all that can be assumed is what can be proven with observable evidence. I can't take anyone who calls themselves a scientist seriously if they subscribe to a belief (YEC) which completely ignores mountains of evidence that denies it. If you want to believe in God, that's all well and good, but believing in something that is counter intuitive to everything we can observe about the universe, and at the same time have the intelligence to get where he is today, well...It seems like hypocrisy to me.

right...i dont think we could call anyone a scientist who fits in your criteria...carson is an exception though, since hes a neurosurgeon...and a lecturer on neuro...at johns hopkins..i think the jury is in that this guy can be called a scientist. I have read his newest book and it is awesome...i just skip the god stuff and read the other...still a great book for everyone. I think it's childish to ignore pragmatic ideas from somebody just because they believe ( in their personal,private life) in a God or what have you...especially in Carson's case. I think hes pretty badass.
 
No, not really, they aren't common sense. They are incredibly regressive, would punish those at the margins of society and not do anything to control healthcare costs at any rate.

can you give me an example of what you are talking about?
 
right...i dont think we could call anyone a scientist who fits in your criteria...carson is an exception though, since hes a neurosurgeon...and a lecturer on neuro...at johns hopkins..i think the jury is in that this guy can be called a scientist. I have read his newest book and it is awesome...i just skip the god stuff and read the other...still a great book for everyone. I think it's childish to ignore pragmatic ideas from somebody just because they believe ( in their personal,private life) in a God or what have you...especially in Carson's case. I think hes pretty badass.

I'm not saying no one should listen to him based on his beliefs, so I'm sorry if it came off that way. Plenty of people who subscribe to that view on the origin of life have provided countless scientific advances for society and humankind. I'm just saying that, for people so vastly accomplished and who have clearly demonstrated strong critical thinking skills, it seems strange that they would be able to completely believe in such an idea. As possible as it is to completely disprove something, young earth creationism has been disproven.

Now, the reason I don't agree with this man's health care ideas are because I don't believe with them. Regardless about whatever else I might think of him, I can safely say that my ideal healthcare system and his ideal healthcare system are two separate entities. If I was unable to agree with anyone who shared a different belief system than me, well that pretty much eliminates 99.9% of the world's population. I mean, there are probably countless reasons he believes what he does; I just happen to think it's completely ludicrous. I don't mean to say he's incapable, and I was incorrect in extrapolating from his faith what I did about his abilities as a professional.

I just think everything about that kind of creationism is absolutely ridiculous, looking from the outside in, and I doubt anyone who didn't grow up with those beliefs would ever be able to look at them objectively and conclude that they had very much merit.
 
Thank goodness we live in a country where we are allowed to believe in whatever we want and be successful by our own merit in anyway we see fit. If I was a neurosurgeon of Dr. Carson's magnitude, the last thing on my mind would be the fact that there are premeds here that saw my personal beliefs as strange, nonobjective and hypocritical. It's ridiculously laughable. I believe in evolution, am not a YEC and the fact that Dr. Carson doesn't hold these views means absolutely nothing to me.


It is his status as a young earth creationist (YEC) that calls into question his capacity for objective reasoning.

Can someone really be a neurosurgeon with a questionable capacity for objective reasoning? (Serious question, not trying to be sarcastic).
 
Can someone really be a neurosurgeon with a questionable capacity for objective reasoning? (Serious question, not trying to be sarcastic).

Yes. One can be brilliant in some aspects but crazy in others - cognitive dissonance is a crazy thing.

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The idea of a medical savings plan is foolish. It doesn't address current issues of health inequities and is a slap in the face to any concept of justice that I'm familiar with other than a strict libertarian one.

What's more just than accepting people are responsible for their actions, successes, and failures? I think our current system is much more insulting to people when we say that we have to take from the successful to give to the unsuccessful because they're incapable of fending for themselves. Libertarianism assumes you're an adult and has faith in you to take care of yourself. It's a beautiful concept, but unfortunately we've squashed that part of a big demographic by propping them up regardless of their efforts.

Dr. Carson's story is an example of this: poor, minority family raised by an uneducated single mother, who saw the learned helplessness associated with the welfare system and wanted no part of it. She held her children to a higher standard, and instilled a good work ethic in them, enabling him to rise above his surroundings and do things that essentially all of us, who on SDN almost universally had greater access to economic and educational resources, will come nowhere close to achieving. Sure, he has to have been dealt a good intellectual genetics card, but I believe there's very few people out there who are incapable of learning and working at a level to support themselves and their families. Certainly less than are currently failing to do so. We just have to get to a place where we reward the good behaviors and punish the bad so we can get there.

But as the next poster says, it's not "strict libertarian" justice.

You missed the line where he said, (paraphrase) "For those that don't have money to contribute to their HSA we can add money for them since we are no longer wasting it with bureaucracy. They will learn to be responsible for their own healthcare."

Strict libertarian? No. Its called responsibility.

As idealistic as his ideas may be...my pessimism takes over. The fiscal irresponsibility of our government is woven into the fiber of the People and is not going to be reversed. Healthcare is a right, but not a responsibility most people are willing to assume until req'd.

I agree with this, except for the point about healthcare being a right. If something demands that a person labors for free to give that service to another, it's not a right. But that's another digression from the topic of the thread, so maybe I shouldn't even throw that in...

Healthcare is closing in on 25% of our GDP and he wants to pay for it by having everyone put 10% of their savings into a healthcare savings account. He wants poor people to get the money they can't put in from the government but very specifically says he doesn't want the rich people to give that money TO the government. Do you see where that math doesn't add up?

10% was an arbitrary number relating to his example of tithing. And he's not saying the rich don't give their money, just that we're not looking to hurt anyone with their tax burdens.

I'm not opposed to paying a higher rate when I'm earning what I will as a physician. But it is awfully distateful to contribute far more, both grossly and as a percentage of total income, than the people who are benefitting from those tax dollars. Sure, I get roads and national defense, but how many times are the police being dispatched to deal with me? How many times are they coming to protect me? Will I be in jail, or will I be getting government support to raise my kids and pay my bills? No, typically the people who are contributing the bulk of the money for these services aren't utilizing them. It's a perfectly reasonable argument, though too simple to be effective in reality.

When you say everyone is going to pay a lot less, and somehow everyone is magically going to get the same amount of stuff anyway, then chances are you didn't do the math.

I don't think the goal is that everyone gets the same amount of stuff as they do now. I think some of the appeal to having people contributing and seeing what things are actually costing their plan is that they become more reluctant to spend it. When something's free to you, it ceases to have value. When you're footing the bill, you start to say "Maybe I can wait until Monday to see my doctor in his office instead of going to the ED," or "Maybe my friend can drive me to the hospital rather than calling an ambulance," or "I'm 90 and I probably don't have that much time left. Maybe I should help my children and grandchildren out by accepting the inevitable and going into hospice care and passing down the remainder of my account balance rather than riding out every last second and every last penny in the ICU."

To respond to the OP, I'll just quote what I wrote in another thread. I've spent far more time typing this up instead of studying to be willing to type out an original response ;):

I agree, it's too simplistic. I think his comments on healthcare were the most off-base things he said.

But it's an interesting idea, and he didn't say that the government wouldn't pitch in. Maybe the government contributes a certain amount based on your income, multiplied by how much you contributed. Just to throw out arbitrary numbers to help explain (and as a medical student, I don't have much more of an idea of what many of these things cost than the patients do), maybe the destitute people in our country get $40 tossed in by the government for every $1 they contribute. If you're making a million a year, your multiplier is lower. Then you look at what each chronic illness diagnosis a person has tends to cost in treatment, and you assign an additional multiplier on that. And if it was contributed to from birth and invested, that money would hopefully grow quite a bit by the time you were elderly and consuming a lot of medical resources. I still don't know how you'd fund a week's stay in the ICU (what is it, something like $5K-$10K every 24 hours there?) when you're paying as an individual rather than scattered across a bunch of people paying premiums to an insurance company.

But if it was a system where you were actually paying real money for care, maybe we could get away from this system where prices don't accurately reflect what tests and treatment cost, since the payments are only a fraction of the quoted price and we have to have a way to recoup some of the losses of all this "charity care." Then perhaps that $5K-$10K ICU figure becomes more like $1K-$2K. Still difficult to afford, but more reasonable. Plus, since these people have a little skin in the game, and can see those deductions coming out of their account, maybe they'll be inclined to make more reasonable decisions about how and where they get their care.

But then we've essentially gone to a government-funded system, which is what many people would like to avoid. Perhaps there's a way to privatize it, but it's not immediately obvious to me. Maybe include some employer matching, or encourage the creation of systems like one of my previous employers had where they essentially functioned as their own insurance company (though I think they had catastrophic coverage through a major insurer) and created financial incentives to see PCPs or urgent cares rather than EDs.

Plus, it completely ignores those who have severe medical problems early on that are expensive to treat and make it impossible for them to work. And there'd have to be policy changes that would enact real consequences for not having the funds you need to get care, while not causing innocent miscalcuations to cause a person to die on the street from an MI and still accounting for those who decided that they weren't going to work and they weren't going to contribute any money. It seems tough, maybe impossible, to recognize all these variables and design a system that makes every individual responsible for him/herself.

If we could implement the other parts of his speech and get away from all the "politically correct" cowardice, we could have a discussion about making meaningful reforms that we don't have to worry about spending so much on welfare, medicaid, police patrols, and the penal system. Reward good academic behaviors (which doesn't have to be expensive, as evidenced by Dr. Carson's own early life and the work of his fund), and start increasing the percentage of parents who hold their children to higher standards by reducing the number that are having kids so they can collect a bigger welfare check or out of sheer irresponsibility/laziness/stupidity. I'm sure we could wipe out most, if not all, of our country's most pressing domestic concerns if we were willing to be honest about what's going on and do something about it. Many of the problems facing our healthcare system are symptoms of a larger societal problem. There's problems here too, but we're forgetting about the forest and dealing with a few trees.

But any politician who would talk about that would be committing career suicide, and any attempt at the kinds of reforms many of us would like to see would be sued into the Stone Age. So we'll either work out some kind of half-measure, or slide downhill enough that major change is the only option.
 
Watch it. It's only a half hour and definitely worth the time.

He is a proponent of a simplified tax code, investing in education to hopefully decrease penale expenditures, increased HSAs with the ability to pass them on to your children, giving indigent people HSAs instead of Medicaid so that there would be some personal responsibility and (hopefully) decreased overhead. He is also not fond of political correctness. Of note, he says nothing about creationism, vaccinations, etc, yet people have gone off on that tangent and not talked about any of his ideas.

Really, he's a brilliant man who gave an interesting speech (also interesting to see the juxtaposition of Carson and Obama) and its sad that people are dismissing him because his religious views. If someone who was Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist or whatever gave the same speech and was being discredited for their faith, there would be a different conversation on this board....
HSAs, at face value, sound reasonable, pragmatic even. Give indigents money and they'll use the money as they see fit (personal responsibility you say). The problem with that is fact that healthcare costs are rising at a much faster clip than people's income, and funding these accounts will not reduce the costs of healthcare. I can pull HSAs out of the air and say, oh, that's a great idea, but how much would you put into these accounts? How do you come up with how much to allocate? How much do you add each year? If ever? Do we replenish it if someone goes through a course of chemo, to then relapse? Is it fair to add more for the chemo patient that the diabetic one?.....

And that the problem with the solutions Dr Carson is promulgating. He broaches his ideas as common sense and enlightening, when in fact they aren't rigorous.

The problem, Dr. Carson and fellow conservatives, is the medical cost machine. From the insane amount of profits generated by pharma and insurance companies, to the payment model that rewards certain physicians for the number of procedures they perform rather than providing quality preventive care (plus other things). We know the facts: America spends more on healthcare than any other country in the world, and the outcomes aren't necessarily better. We know the root of it: Corporate healthcare and waste. We can't have our cake and eat it, if we want private, corporate healthcare, we have to live with high, and ever increasing costs. We can talk policy, but that'll be a substantial debate rather than one line zingers.
 
I don't think the goal is that everyone gets the same amount of stuff as they do now. I think some of the appeal to having people contributing and seeing what things are actually costing their plan is that they become more reluctant to spend it. When something's free to you, it ceases to have value. When you're footing the bill, you start to say "Maybe I can wait until Monday to see my doctor in his office instead of going to the ED," or "Maybe my friend can drive me to the hospital rather than calling an ambulance," or "I'm 90 and I probably don't have that much time left. Maybe I should help my children and grandchildren out by accepting the inevitable and going into hospice care and passing down the remainder of my account balance rather than riding out every last second and every last penny in the ICU."

While I agree with much of what you're saying, typically it's the families that push for end-of-life interventions, not necessarily the patients. This is why POLSTs, advance directives and the like are really important. Patient families going AMA because they want grandma to have a PEG tube put in despite her <20 EF and end-stage renal disease because they KNOW she WILL get better if she is force-fed nutrition...yeah. There's more to it than just assuming a limited availability of funds will make uneducated (for lack of a better term) citizens behave rationally.

A bit of a tangent with the end of life care, sorry.

In terms of Dr. Carson's solutions would require a complete shift in structure (very improbable). I'm more supportive of the cost reduction and quality efforts by guys like Brent James and Jim Reinertsen.
 
While I agree with much of what you're saying, typically it's the families that push for end-of-life interventions, not necessarily the patients. This is why POLSTs, advance directives and the like are really important. Patient families going AMA because they want grandma to have a PEG tube put in despite her <20 EF and end-stage renal disease because they KNOW she WILL get better if she is force-fed nutrition...yeah. There's more to it than just assuming a limited availability of funds will make uneducated (for lack of a better term) citizens behave rationally.

A bit of a tangent with the end of life care, sorry.

That's another side of it that I chose not to use as an example, since it's distasteful to some, though I'd expect our system will eventually have to accept it: The family, who currently has no financial stake in brain dead grandma's extremely expensive and absolutely futile end-of-life care, is able to tell her doctor to "do everything" so they don't have the guilt of "putting her down" and can go on hoping she'll magically get better. When the remaining funds in her HCA can be passed down to her children's accounts (or if continuing to treat her was taken out of her children's accounts if they wanted everything done), then they may opt to quit maintaining someone who is essentially "dead except for the polite fiction of ongoing organ perfusion" (to use a gem of a line written by Panda Bear MD). There is now a cost involved, and they begin to judge the value of the care she's receiving.
 
That's another side of it that I chose not to use as an example, since it's distasteful to some, though I'd expect our system will eventually have to accept it: The family, who currently has no financial stake in brain dead grandma's extremely expensive and absolutely futile end-of-life care, is able to tell her doctor to "do everything" so they don't have the guilt of "putting her down" and can go on hoping she'll magically get better. When the remaining funds in her HCA can be passed down to her children's accounts (or if continuing to treat her was taken out of her children's accounts if they wanted everything done), then they may opt to quit maintaining someone who is essentially "dead except for the polite fiction of ongoing organ perfusion" (to use a gem of a line written by Panda Bear MD). There is now a cost involved, and they begin to judge the value of the care she's receiving.

Sure, that's one way at looking at it, but what about the kid diagnosed with leukemia at age 5? What happens when this person's HSA runs out? What about someone who gets into a car accident and his HSA can't cover the costs? HSA is a simplistic model that doesn't work in the real world. The costs are too high and the risk too great for people to rely solely on HSA. So we would still need some sort of insurance to cover those major expenditures anyways and then we are back to the same problem instead now we have to pay both insurance premiums AND contribute to our HSA accounts.
 
Just wanted to hear some opinions on Dr. Benjamin Carson's health care reform ideas, after he talked recently at the National Prayer Breakfast. This has been on the news and just thought it'd be an interesting topic to bring up.

Here's a video clip of the talk you're referring to. I quite enjoyed it and agree with him on many topics he discussed.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFb6NU1giRA[/YOUTUBE]
 
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