Drop the MCAT from Medical School Admissions 2020-2021 Cycle?

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War of Arts said:
I know nothing about law school admission process, but this online mcat proposal is unfair for those who have taken the mcat prior to the pandemic
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It may seem unfair to those that have taken the exam, but how does it actually negatively effect us? We have nothing to lose or gain by the MCAT changing due to what’s going on (those of us that have matriculated). Are you saying that it would mostly be unfair to those that are applying with those that may have an at-home mcat? Who knows, it may effect scores negatively. . . In your pjs, but a camera in your face, the cars honking outside, too confortable maybe.
 
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OchemOficionado said:
It may seem unfair to those that have taken the exam, but how does it actually negatively effect us? We have nothing to lose or gain by the MCAT changing due to what’s going on (those of us that have matriculated). Are you saying that it would mostly be unfair to those that are applying with those that may have an at-home mcat? Who knows, it may effect scores negatively. . . In your pjs, but a camera in your face, the cars honking outside, too confortable maybe.
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What online MCAT proposal? It's not happening, at least not this year. AAMC is adding additional test dates, in testing centers, for this summer, right now. They will be released on Friday!
 
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KnightDoc said:
What online MCAT proposal? It's not happening, at least not this year. AAMC is adding additional test dates, in testing centers, for this summer, right now. They will be released on Friday!
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This thread is discussing hypotheticals.

erenyeager said:
I think it's a bit unfair because there is more opportunity for cheating. During designated breaks, people can easily leave their room to go to a laptop and look up amino acids for example right before the bio section. You could also easily slip a small note under your laptop or something. You also get scratch paper, so you know people can write down all the questions, void the exam, and retake. Free test that way.
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I agree that is possible, but there would be some anti-cheating measures in place, like a camera, but there’s always a way to cheat, yes. Looking up things on designated breaks wouldn’t help much because you wouldn’t be able to access a prior section. Looking up amino acids at lunch would be like looking them up right before the exam started. If you void and retake you wouldn’t get the same exam. The scratch paper trick may work though. So, you’re saying it’s unfair to the students they will be applying with? I’m not sure if the average score would increase though. The AAMC will do their part to prevent and punish cheating as much as they can.
 
OchemOficionado said:
This thread is discussing hypotheticals.



I agree that is possible, but there would be some anti-cheating measures in place, like a camera, but there’s always a way to cheat, yes. Looking up things on designated breaks wouldn’t help much because you wouldn’t be able to access a prior section. Looking up amino acids at lunch would be like looking them up right before the exam started. If you void and retake you wouldn’t get the same exam. The scratch paper trick may work though. So, you’re saying it’s unfair to the students they will be applying with? I’m not sure if the average score would increase though. The AAMC will do their part to prevent and punish cheating as much as they can.
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Just put an huge poster of physics equations in front of you on the wall behind the computer
 
OchemOficionado said:
This thread is discussing hypotheticals.
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My bad!! The way everyone is pouring so much energy into debating the pros and cons, I thought there was a proposal out there that I missed and/or people were unaware of what was going on with added test dates!

Please carry on!! :)
 
erenyeager said:
I think it's a bit unfair because there is more opportunity for cheating. During designated breaks, people can easily leave their room to go to a laptop and look up amino acids for example right before the bio section. You could also easily slip a small note under your laptop or something. You also get scratch paper, so you know people can write down all the questions, void the exam, and retake. Free test that way.
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Some of the online testing idea being floated are to have the exam taker have a camera showing not only at straight on view (ie from screen looking at taker) but also a second camera showing the exam testing area. No way one can cheat sheet that.

I can see you've never taken these exams. They have a massive bank, so they don't reuse the same questions. I believe that scratch paper will not be allowed in these formats either.
 
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erenyeager said:
I think it's a bit unfair because there is more opportunity for cheating. During designated breaks, people can easily leave their room to go to a laptop and look up amino acids for example right before the bio section. You could also easily slip a small note under your laptop or something. You also get scratch paper, so you know people can write down all the questions, void the exam, and retake. Free test that way.
Click to expand...
OchemOficionado said:
This thread is discussing hypotheticals.



I agree that is possible, but there would be some anti-cheating measures in place, like a camera, but there’s always a way to cheat, yes. Looking up things on designated breaks wouldn’t help much because you wouldn’t be able to access a prior section. Looking up amino acids at lunch would be like looking them up right before the exam started. If you void and retake you wouldn’t get the same exam. The scratch paper trick may work though. So, you’re saying it’s unfair to the students they will be applying with? I’m not sure if the average score would increase though. The AAMC will do their part to prevent and punish cheating as much as they can.
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what i meant unfair is just like what @erenyeager said it is so easy to cheat these days you never know and can't imagine how some can simply cheat in front of the camera, how about an amino acid list just on the wall behind the camera are you expecting a student to have a 360 camera? how about people project the entire screen to someone else (or simply have two screens) next to you and he is an MCAT expert who just told you all the answers? or how about someone with a mini-earpods and camera eyeglasses?
 
Goro said:
Some of the online testing idea being floated are to have the exam taker have a camera showing not only at straight on view (ie from screen looking at taker) but also a second camera showing the exam testing area. No way one can cheat sheet that.

I can see you've never taken these exams. They have a massive bank, so they don't reuse the same questions. I believe that scratch paper will not be allowed in these formats either.
Click to expand...
a second camera is nothing, to ensure an online MCAT at home AAMC needs to: 1 send a specific test-taking computer secured in a safe box with a code that is only given before the actual exam, a strict encrypted way to connect to the wifi or whatever network environment 2. a high definition camera that can see everything going on in the testing environment, 3. a metal detector or whatever stuff used to detect any possible apparatus a taker may use, 4. be nude
 
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They give multiple exams on the same day. I doubt they reuse them in such a way that someone can retake a month later and happen to get the same exam. We never are given our answers or the solutions either

I’m saying I don’t see how it impacts anyone. . . Especially not those that are already in medical school. Like, why do I can if someone else has it differently due to a pandemic? I can slightly understand why some may think it’s an unfair advantage but there’s no proof. The circumstances may make students do worse. No everyone studies for the MCAT at home. For me it was work, home, public libraries and Starbucks, lol.It was a relief to take it in the testing setting.

erenyeager said:
AAMC reuses questions/passages. Plus, a similar exam always gives you an advantage. I mean I don't trust the AAMC to make a cheat-proof exam tbh. On actual test day, we have to get pat down, glasses inspected, finger print scanned. Simply does not compare to online. It's unfair to everyone who has ever taken the MCAT imo. It's also unfair to honest test takers who take it online. I'd say the average score would increase! Even if there is 100% no cheating (not likely), at the very least, they get a psychological advantage: you do better when being tested in the same environment you studied. If you take the MCAT at home and you study at home, you'll do better! Part of the reason your score drops from your FL is due to the test taking environment. Multiple studies prove this, it's even an MCAT topic!

introductory-psychology-forgetting-21-728.jpg
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erenyeager said:
Not true Goro, this is directly from the AAMC: "Each of the four sections of the exam include some “field test” or experimental questions (i.e. questions that are being considered for future use and do not count toward your total score.)"

These questions or passages can potentially pop up on future exams depending on how people do on them.

Also, "The recycled MCAT questions are used periodically and in a random fashion to further minimize the potential for "leaks" of the old test questions to future test ..." (Source: Decisions of the United States Courts Involving Copyright, 1983).
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NBOME and NBME do that as well. They gather data on these for a few cycles. It's not "let's test this item on one and then use it." And I never said that items were retired. But anyone who tries to write items down and then hope that they see the same item on a retry is a fool.
 
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erenyeager said:
:unsure::unsure::unsure:
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Reusing test questions in the manner he's describing isn't the same as reusing test questions in what you're probably thinking. Sure they're reusing the same questions in the sense that they might display the same questions to people on different dates but they're not reusing test forms. They probably build a form for each day that everyone gets, or a set of them for a particular day built from a bank of passages/questions. If the MCAT works the way I think it works at least.

If your friend told you the content or exact answers to the questions on their form in advance, it would be unlikely that you would see many of those questions on your exam on a given day. Lets assume you had the best method to cheat which is just having an exact copy of the questions and the correct answers. You wouldn't even have that going in because it would be pretty hard to get that information. You might only see 25% of those on any given test day. It doesn't benefit you that much because you would've gotten roughly 55% of the questions right anyway just to get not dog score. Even then it doesn't benefit you that much. It would be the equivalent of just having an on-day. A direct result is that cheating in this way is almost worthless, the better you are at the MCAT; the less it does for you. The worse you are at the MCAT, the more it does for you, but we're talking a 496 vs. a 480.

The purpose of the experimental questions, at least how I would think they would work, is to approximate how the test is scored and if the questions are fair. If a question is valid for the MCAT, people in all skill brackets should score roughly the same as other people in their skill bracket. That's sort of the idea I would go for if I were asked to design a test that works allegedly how the MCAT works. In theory I guess.
 
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So does this mean I can’t use my type writer?
 
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If one person can build a "cheat proof" system, another can crack it. There are unscrupulous people everywhere and someone will find a way to cheat on an online exam.

I believe I did worse on my actual exam due to a lack of natural light and would have performed better elsewhere... Can't support my argument (especially since the score I was expecting was within the confidence internal).

Imagine if schools did not have MCAT and instead used another standardized test.... ACT or SAT to help differentiate..... After all, GPA is too subjective to be the major differentiator.

How's that for setting off neurosis?
 
Screen capture is very hard to detect. You have enough tests do that and distribute it, unfair advantage.
 
Some of you are also unaware that online testing programs will shut all other programs except the one running the exam. But hey, if you wish to engage in the mental frolics of figuring out non-existent ways to cheat for an event that so far, isn't happening, carry on.
 
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Goro said:
Some of you are also unaware that online testing programs will shut all other programs except the one running the exam. But hey, if you wish to engage in the mental frolics of figuring out non-existent ways to cheat for an event that so far, isn't happening, carry on.
Click to expand...

Some of us who are not software engineers should not comment on things they don't know about. It is impossible for an application to know what processes are essential and non-essential to the OS operations, so it cannot do so. Nor does the browser which the test is administered have the permissions to monitor or 'shut down' programs outside its scope. Do you know how malware background processes work, undetected to the user?

But hey, if those that don't know how computers work care to comment on how impossible it is to cheat, carry on.
 
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Goro said:
Some of you are also unaware that online testing programs will shut all other programs except the one running the exam. But hey, if you wish to engage in the mental frolics of figuring out non-existent ways to cheat for an event that so far, isn't happening, carry on.
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I think the fact that many are hypothesizing possible ways to cheat on an online MCAT, which as you mentioned isn’t even happening, is concerning in itself.
 
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emergencydancing said:
Some of us who are not software engineers should not comment on things they don't know about. It is impossible for an application to know what processes are essential and non-essential to the OS operations, so it cannot do so. Nor does the browser which the test is administered have the permissions to monitor or 'shut down' programs outside its scope. Do you know how malware background processes work, undetected to the user?

But hey, if those that don't know how computers work care to comment on how impossible it is to cheat, carry on.
Click to expand...

I am a software engineer. Any system is breakable, it's just really hard to do. It's just a never ending war between hackers and developers trying to figure out how whatever software can be works and the way it can be compromised without getting caught. Sure if you knew exactly how whatever checking software they're going to use works, you could probably do it. But you don't so it's basically a crapshoot. If it's on my box, I own it. But their software isn't mine until I own it, I can't just own it on the fly.

You could compromise the test on-site if I knew exactly how the test worked and what the security measures would be. The problem remains, as I've already pointed out, if you compromised the test in this manner, it would have minimal outcomes on the results. The way that the test is designed makes scores generalizable across different test forms and different test days, it doubles as a protection against cheating though what I would consider conventional means. If you're smart enough to come up with software to compromise the test through conventional means, you could easily just hack the AAMC and figure out what the questions and answers were going to be on test day, then just get a perfect score.

From a legal standpoint if you try and break the test by taking answers out of the test via sophisticated technical trickery if the test were done online (even temporarily) or just memorizing questions and answers then sending it to your friends. Best case, your friends might get a minor boost if any at all, and everyone would be none the wiser. Worst case you get caught and can kiss your dreams of medical school goodbye, though in spectacular fashion. Also the breach of contract lawsuits, oh the breach of contract lawsuits. If you take the hack the AAMC route, you could pull it off but were word to get out your 528 would be meaningless. If you get caught, you could look forward to enjoying your time in prison.

tl;dr: If it were moved online, it would only be slightly less secure than normal. The risk assessment for online and off are about the same, with online being slightly less secure if you covered all your bases. If you're smart enough to pull of any of this stuff, you're probably smart enough to realize it's a better idea to just study for the exam and get a good score anyway.

meronebib said:
I think the fact that many are hypothesizing possible ways to cheat on an online MCAT, which as you mentioned isn’t even happening, is concerning in itself.
Click to expand...



It's not that we're bad, it's just that we care.
 
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Mythoclast said:
I am a software engineer. Any system is breakable, it's just really hard to do. It's just a never ending war between hackers and developers trying to figure out how whatever software can be works and the way it can be compromised without getting caught. Sure if you knew exactly how whatever checking software they're going to use works, you could probably do it. But you don't so it's basically a crapshoot. If it's on my box, I own it. But their software isn't mine until I own it, I can't just own it on the fly.

You could compromise the test on-site if I knew exactly how the test worked and what the security measures would be. The problem remains, as I've already pointed out, if you compromised the test in this manner, it would have minimal outcomes on the results. The way that the test is designed makes scores generalizable across different test forms and different test days, it doubles as a protection against cheating though what I would consider conventional means. If you're smart enough to come up with software to compromise the test through conventional means, you could easily just hack the AAMC and figure out what the questions and answers were going to be on test day, then just get a perfect score.

From a legal standpoint if you try and break the test by taking answers out of the test via sophisticated technical trickery if the test were done online (even temporarily) or just memorizing questions and answers then sending it to your friends. Best case, your friends might get a minor boost if any at all, and everyone would be none the wiser. Worst case you get caught and can kiss your dreams of medical school goodbye, though in spectacular fashion. If you take the hack the AAMC route, you could pull it off but were word to get out your 528 would be meaningless. If you get caught, you could look forward to enjoying your time in prison.

tl;dr: If it were moved online, it would only be slightly less secure than normal. The risk assessment for online and off are about the same, with online being slightly less secure if you covered all your bases. If you're smart enough to pull of any of this stuff, you're probably smart enough to realize it's a better idea to just study for the exam and get a good score anyway.





It's not that we're bad, it's just that we care.
Click to expand...


I am also a software engineer. It is not difficult to screen record the whole session without anyone knowing. especially if the test is administered on the browser with limited permissions which I think it will be for distribution purposes. Now I'm not advocating this by any means, but saying that it is a possibility. A bad actor can get his friends who are not premed to sign up for consecutive tests. They screen record the whole session, he compiles a test bank. He sells this for profit. It is distributed, test becomes invalid.

Yes they have a huge question bank, but even if they don't reuse, having more test questions will be cheating. In the grand scheme of things, is it likely? I don't know, there are a lot of desperate premeds willing to pay money for that. Not only will one person's test be jeopardized, but potentially many if it gets leaked. Why do you think tests are so strict about having students not discuss exams? The test taker who leaks will probably have limited liability, since they probably don't care about the exam or med school.

When you run your software (especially a web page) on my computer, you lose your control.
 
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Mythoclast said:
I am a software engineer. Any system is breakable, it's just really hard to do. It's just a never ending war between hackers and developers trying to figure out how whatever software can be works and the way it can be compromised without getting caught. Sure if you knew exactly how whatever checking software they're going to use works, you could probably do it. But you don't so it's basically a crapshoot. If it's on my box, I own it. But their software isn't mine until I own it, I can't just own it on the fly.

You could compromise the test on-site if I knew exactly how the test worked and what the security measures would be. The problem remains, as I've already pointed out, if you compromised the test in this manner, it would have minimal outcomes on the results. The way that the test is designed makes scores generalizable across different test forms and different test days, it doubles as a protection against cheating though what I would consider conventional means. If you're smart enough to come up with software to compromise the test through conventional means, you could easily just hack the AAMC and figure out what the questions and answers were going to be on test day, then just get a perfect score.

From a legal standpoint if you try and break the test by taking answers out of the test via sophisticated technical trickery if the test were done online (even temporarily) or just memorizing questions and answers then sending it to your friends. Best case, your friends might get a minor boost if any at all, and everyone would be none the wiser. Worst case you get caught and can kiss your dreams of medical school goodbye, though in spectacular fashion. Also the breach of contract lawsuits, oh the breach of contract lawsuits. If you take the hack the AAMC route, you could pull it off but were word to get out your 528 would be meaningless. If you get caught, you could look forward to enjoying your time in prison.

tl;dr: If it were moved online, it would only be slightly less secure than normal. The risk assessment for online and off are about the same, with online being slightly less secure if you covered all your bases. If you're smart enough to pull of any of this stuff, you're probably smart enough to realize it's a better idea to just study for the exam and get a good score anyway.





It's not that we're bad, it's just that we care.
Click to expand...

Is that the TLDR for the video? Because I’m not going to watch it; it’s 40 minutes lol. But anyway, discussions of possible ways to cheat = material and ideas for actual cheaters. I’m not saying you all are cheaters.
 
meronebib said:
Oh got it. Nice, I just got owned by 2 software engineers. You learn something new everyday!
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Well just one, I think the other guy was on your side. No, it definitely should be talked about, if nothing else to prevent. It's like saying we should not prepare for a pandemic because it won't ever happen.
 
erenyeager said:
I think it's a bit unfair because there is more opportunity for cheating. During designated breaks, people can easily leave their room to go to a laptop and look up amino acids for example right before the bio section. You could also easily slip a small note under your laptop or something. You also get scratch paper, so you know people can write down all the questions, void the exam, and retake. Free test that way.
Click to expand...
If you have to try to "cheat" on the MCAT, frankly you have already failed the test when you walked in.
 
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I think that cheating would be easier on an online MCAT. You could have a hidden camera somewhere. Conceal an earpiece with long hair or something, and have an MCAT wizard or wizards looking up stuff and feeding answers to the cheater. Hell, if you really wanted to be sophisticated, get a crooked doctor to certify that you need hearing aids and make that earpiece look like a hearing aid. All kinds of cheat methods are now possible when you own the space you're taking the exam in.

Thankfully, they're well aware of the increased opportunity to cheat and have chosen a shortened, proctored exam in a space that is owned and controlled by proctors...
 
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BlackMathMajor said:
I think that cheating would be easier on an online MCAT. You could have a hidden camera somewhere. Conceal an earpiece with long hair or something, and have an MCAT wizard or wizards looking up stuff and feeding answers to the cheater. Hell, if you really wanted to be sophisticated, get a crooked doctor to certify that you need hearing aids and make that earpiece look like a hearing aid. All kinds of cheat methods are now possible when you own the space you're taking the exam in.

Thankfully, they're well aware of the increased opportunity to cheat and have chosen a shortened, proctored exam in a space that is owned and controlled by proctors...
Click to expand...

Of course, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but...

www.forbes.com

AP Exams And Colleges Go Online, Cheating Follows

Colleges have rushed online and cheating has already been reported at two colleges and on the AP exam. That was predictable.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com


Just FYI to those who were skeptical of online exam cheating.
 
Lee said:
References:


www.studentdoctor.net

The MCAT: A History and Current Overview - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.
www.studentdoctor.net www.studentdoctor.net

Based on COVID-19, should students advocate to have the MCAT removed from medical school admissions for the 2020-2021 admissions cycle?
Click to expand...

Nah, the MCAT is important and actually predictive unlike some of the other standardized tests out there. It allows students to wash away the sins of academic past, and let's everybody be on an even playing field big school small schools stem majors non-stem majors you name it

David D MD - USMLE and MCAT Tutor
Med School Tutors
 
With all due respect, why is this thread still going? A decision has already been made, modifications have been made to accommodate everyone who has to reschedule, the cycle has been pushed back a few weeks, and live testing has resumed!!!
 
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KnightDoc said:
With all due respect, why is this thread still going? A decision has already been made, modifications have been made to accommodate everyone who has to reschedule, the cycle has been pushed back a few weeks, and live testing has resumed!!!
Click to expand...
Boredom from WL is my guess
 
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