Drug test for pharmacy school?

iceman132

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    Patient centered care > pharmacists' religiosity

    Oh yes, the patient is far more important than God or his church/temple/mosque and doctrine. Especially obvious among the Jews/Christians/Muslims. How silly of them.

    You realize that to religious people it's God first and everything else second correct? You are spitting on a vast majority of the population with a statement like this and you are going to have a hard ass time interacting with the religious community with an attitude like this. I'm not even arguing whether they SHOULD give it out or not.... However to say that Patient> Than their religion is just about the most blasphemous and flat out ignorant thing I've ever heard.

    For the record I'm not even against giving out contraception since it is material cooperation. However, to say that the pharmacist should be forced to give out contraception is a violation of freedom of religion.
     
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      Oh yes, the patient is far more important than God or his church/temple/mosque and doctrine. Especially obvious among the Jews/Christians/Muslims. How silly of them.

      You realize that to religious people it's God first and everything else second correct? You are spitting on a vast majority of the population with a statement like this and you are going to have a hard ass time interacting with the religious community with an attitude like this. I'm not even arguing whether they SHOULD give it out or not.... However to say that Patient> Than their religion is just about the most blasphemous and flat out ignorant thing I've ever heard.

      For the record I'm not even against giving out contraception since it is material cooperation. However, to say that the pharmacist should be forced to give out contraception is a violation of freedom of religion.

      Is the religious community as mean as you are? If so, then I don't give a crap what they think. I'm going to take care of my patients and give them what they need. I don't "agree" with drug abuse but that doesn't mean I'm not going to do needle exchanges or dispense methadone. You can practice your religion in your church. Quit forcing it on others. Regardless of what I say, it's like talking to a brick wall anyway. If you don't want to dispense Plan B, do something else. There are going to be many things in practice that challenge your beliefs and view of the world. In the end, taking care of patients is the most important thing. Not your interests. Get used to it.
       

      iceman132

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        Is the religious community as mean as you are? If so, then I don't give a crap what they think. I'm going to take care of my patients and give them what they need. I don't "agree" with drug abuse but that doesn't mean I'm not going to do needle exchanges or dispense methadone. You can practice your religion in your church. Quit forcing it on others. Regardless of what I say, it's like talking to a brick wall anyway. If you don't want to dispense Plan B, do something else. There are going to be many things in practice that challenge your beliefs and view of the world. In the end, taking care of patients is the most important thing. Not your interests. Get used to it.

        How am I forcing my views on others? I'm asking you to be respectful of religion (Which you are doing a horrendous job of and will make you a terrible pharmacist if you continue this habit).

        Saying you don't give a "crap" about a religious person's idea is just completely unprofessional. This isn't just a niche group. There are billions of people who follow some sort of religion and have some sort of God who mean more to them than their profession. While I totally disagree with you on this subject I will be cordial.

        I'm not talking about YOU. I'm talking about the pharmacist who refuses contraception. You should be respectful of THEM and understand their viewpoint. (Even if you disagree)

        BTW doing something which is best for the church and the patient aren't mutually exclusive. Some people think a bit deeper than you do.
         
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        Incitatus

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          So then a pharmacist who objects to selling plan B should also object to selling regular oral contraceptives and condoms. What about a pharmacist who believes in eugenics?
          Where do you draw the line?

          In this profession, the sole focus must always remain on patient care. The personal views of the pharmacist should be respected within reason, but never imposed on the patient.
           

          rxlea

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            How am I forcing my views on others? I'm asking you to be respectful of religion (Which you are doing a horrendous job of and will make you a terrible pharmacist if you continue this habit).

            Saying you don't give a "crap" about a religious person's idea is just completely unprofessional. This isn't just a niche group. There are billions of people who follow some sort of religion and have some sort of God who mean more to them than their profession. While I totally disagree with you on this subject I will be cordial.

            I'm not talking about YOU. I'm talking about the pharmacist who refuses contraception. You should be respectful of THEM and understand their viewpoint. (Even if you disagree)

            BTW doing something which is best for the church and the patient aren't mutually exclusive. Some people think a bit deeper than you do.

            It's you that needs to think a bit deeper, my friend. I don't care if there are billions of people that believe in allah, God, or the flying spaghetti monster; I don't owe them the respect to deny care to people in need. I should respect the church's beliefs when they don't respect me for being me? Whatever. I'm done. I will continue to do the best for my patients. Good luck on your PCAT.
             

            iceman132

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              It's you that needs to think a bit deeper, my friend. I don't care if there are billions of people that believe in allah, God, or the flying spaghetti monster; I don't owe them the respect to deny care to people in need. I should respect the church's beliefs when they don't respect me for being me? Whatever. I'm done. I will continue to do the best for my patients. Good luck on your PCAT.

              Thank you for the luck.

              Me for being me? What? I'll admit that you'd make a good politician. I hope you do the best for your patients.... What that means is very very ambiguous.

              I'd argue that not giving out contraceptives may help people think twice before having sex when they can't afford a baby.

              So then a pharmacist who objects to selling plan B should also object to selling regular oral contraceptives and condoms. What about a pharmacist who believes in eugenics?
              Where do you draw the line?

              In this profession, the sole focus must always remain on patient care. The personal views of the pharmacist should be respected within reason, but never imposed on the patient.

              Eugenics? If you can give me a real world example then I might be able to go into this more. If the person is upfront and honest about his views and the drugs he gives out then sure (However I'm sure the pharmacist wouldn't have a job for too long)

              The definition of best patient care is the question. Is it best to give out these contraceptives when (In the minds of a religious pharmacist) it would be killing a child. It seems that the person has a constitutional right to not sell these products.
               
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              Pojman

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                Is it best to give out these contraceptives when (In the minds of a religious pharmacist) it would be killing a child. It seems that the person has a constitutional right to not sell these products.

                I am a Mormon. I would argue that me dispensing a contraceptive is not myself killing a child, it is the patient that is making the decision to kill the child.

                There are a lot of things in this world that I can not control, and the availability of products and services that I do not morally agree with is one of those things. I consider it my job to take the item, put it into a bag, and hand it to the customer with a fake smile on my face.

                I can not put my life on hold because the rest of the world is not as good as me.
                 

                iceman132

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                  I am a Mormon. I would argue that me dispensing a contraceptive is not myself killing a child, it is the patient that is making the decision to kill the child.

                  There are a lot of things in this world that I can not control, and the availability of products and services that I do not morally agree with is one of those things. I consider it my job to take the item, put it into a bag, and hand it to the customer with a fake smile on my face.

                  I can not put my life on hold because the rest of the world is not as good as me.

                  I agree with you completely. Is this what your church believes or is this just your personal view. (Just out of curiosity for expanding my theological knowledge)

                  However, should the pharmacist be FORCED to sell these products. Is it in their job description (From what I have read the answer is obviously no since pharmacists frequently make their own drug stores so they don't have to sell the product)

                  This is the question that I am honestly wanting an answer for.
                   

                  Pojman

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                    I agree with you completely.

                    However, should the pharmacist be FORCED to sell these products. Is it in their job description (From what I have read the answer is obviously no since pharmacists frequently make their own drug stores so they don't have to sell the product)

                    This is the question that I am honestly wanting an answer for.

                    If the pharmacist works for a corporation that offers the product then absolutely! A pharmacist is also a retail manager, any retail manager that refuses to sell the product that is offered by the corporation is hindering business.

                    It is not the Pharmacists business to manage the stock of the company unless they are the owner themselves.

                    Sometimes people put religious zeal over common sense. This would be a pretty good case in my opinion.

                    If a Pharmacist starts their own business, they can manage their products any way they want. In this case, they are within their rights. Either that, or they should seek out companies that do not offer the medications that they take issue with.
                     

                    Pojman

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                      I agree with you completely. Is this what your church believes or is this just your personal view. (Just out of curiosity for expanding my theological knowledge)
                      .

                      Hmmm... I am not exactly sure. I do not believe that the LDS church takes an official stance on this issue. For most issues of a personal nature like this - The church lets the individual be guided by the spirit that leads them.
                       
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                      owlegrad

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                        I'd argue that not giving out contraceptives may help people think twice before having sex when they can't afford a baby.

                        In general I think most things are too complicated to boil down to "you are wrong". On this point, you are simply wrong. You think one pharmacist refusing to dispense plan b is going to stop anyone from having sex? :laugh:
                         

                        dancingallday

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                          I agree with you completely. Is this what your church believes or is this just your personal view. (Just out of curiosity for expanding my theological knowledge)

                          However, should the pharmacist be FORCED to sell these products. Is it in their job description (From what I have read the answer is obviously no since pharmacists frequently make their own drug stores so they don't have to sell the product)

                          This is the question that I am honestly wanting an answer for.

                          You do know that as a pharmacist, there are many situations in retail (and to a lesser extent in hospital) where you'll be responsible for dispensing birth control. If you choose not to do so, you're quite simply neglecting your duty as a pharmacist as well as disrespecting the needs of your patients. Jobs often require that you set aside your own personal agenda and emotions. Perhaps you might consider this before you commit to pharmacy?
                           

                          iceman132

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                            In general I think most things are too complicated to boil down to "you are wrong". On this point, you are simply wrong. You think one pharmacist refusing to dispense plan b is going to stop anyone from having sex? :laugh:

                            Yes. The fear of having a baby could deter a reasonable person. You may be right that the majority wouldn't stop though.

                            You do know that as a pharmacist, there are many situations in retail (and to a lesser extent in hospital) where you'll be responsible for dispensing birth control. If you choose not to do so, you're quite simply neglecting your duty as a pharmacist as well as disrespecting the needs of your patients. Jobs often require that you set aside your own personal agenda and emotions. Perhaps you might consider this before you commit to pharmacy?

                            So the pharmacists who are having their own independent pharmacies and refusing contraception are not doing their DEFINED duty as a pharmacist? It is ALWAYS in the best interest of the consumer to get birth control? You're obviously very wrong or else the pharmacists would have their license revoked (Who refuse this product). It does not seem to be so clearly defined.

                            I'M NOT EVEN AGAINST GIVING OUT BIRTH CONTROL AS I HAVE ALREADY EXPLAINED (Damn, I love how people jump to their own conclusions without reading the thread) It is material cooperation with sin. HOWEVER I have a huge objection to breaking the constitutional right of freedom of religion.

                            Edit: I would really be interested to see a pharmacy student or pharmacist give out a CLEAR view of what the SPECIFIC and DEFINED duty of a pharmacist is. Because it seems a bit ambiguous right now. If you NEED to give out birth control without a shadow of a doubt then my opinion will change. (However, since some pharmacists already don't dispense birth control.....)
                             
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                            xtsukiyox

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                              First, I feel you are wrong the instant that you throw "and you will be a horrible pharmacist because" for a personal opinion. Dude, that is not cordial in the slightest. Plus, you aren't even a pharm student, much less in charge of arbitrary judgements of pharmacist quality. I notice this phrase is used with an astounding difference in frequency between this prepharm board & the pharmacy board.

                              Second, how many jewish pharmacists are there? (The correct answer is a whole lot.) The Torah prohibits condoms as birth control, but not the pill. How many jewish pharmacists refuse to sell condoms? I have never met one, and I even know a few orthodox pharmacists.

                              The problem is when these issues pass from actual "religious folks" into the mainstream, where a slow news day sensationalizes and those outside the situation absolutely have to add their two cents. This sort of discussion (as far as what an individual should do) should take place between that person, his/her religious advisor, and his/her boss.

                              The only reason this is such a huge issue now is that the plan b controversy has been on the news. Unfortunately, I feel people who have incompletely thought through their actual morality on the subject are hiding behind religious tolerance to practice discrimination. The trouble is, it has not yet been defined what is required of a pharmacist in terms of dispensing plan b. I find it interesting that before the era of 24-hour news channels, folks with religious objections worked it out with their employers.

                              Personally, on a business level, I feel religious requirements should be dealt with in the same manner as other protected statuses. The easiest to point to is physical disability - reasonable accommodation must be made, but if it isn't possible to do the job, action would be taken as if the person were unfit. This takes any fire out of the argument and places the onus on the employer to define the job / the employee to clearly communicate limits. Can't sell birth control? Fine, have another pharmacist verify & a tech accept the money. (The eventual fallout would clearly end up in the judicial system.)

                              Beyond that, if you feel you need to push your agenda on me, religious or not, you're not going to like the results. We preserve the rights of religion in this country, but also the rights of others not to participate or be trampled by the majority (or vociferous minority).

                              There is a separate assumption here I find a bit distasteful. In terms of cvs/wags/chain pharmacy, I would hope as a consumer that corporate policy would be consistent. However, that company (no matter how big or small) should have the choice as to what policies it makes. Just because the big chains put customer demands over anything else doesn't mean that a) other pharmacies can't choose based on other rationale or b) customers should feel they can walk over any pharmacy. Retail pharmacy is currently the fast food drive up of the medical world, and that casual disrespect needs to stop if we have any chance of maintaining any shred of respect. Respect is truly at the heart of the issue. Customers need to be treated with respect (and treated consistently, one way or the other) and customers need to act respectfully. Post your policies & stick to them.

                              Because it's late & I'm rambling horribly, I'll leave you with food for thought. McDonalds in my area has a policy of a specific number of sauces for specific chicken nugget orders. Their employees have been coached & stay consistent, with no personal judgement. Would a McDonalds employee refuse to serve honey to someone who looks diabetic? No. But neither would they give the mother of 4 extra sauce for free. (This is of course a flawed comparison, and I don't endorse McDonalds as a general rule.) Consistent treatment eliminates (sane) customers from feeling mistreated or discriminated against. Customers also can respect consistent policies (perhaps by going elsewhere to meet their needs). However, when individuals are refused services in subsequent trips, it makes the news.

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                              WISBadger

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                                iceman132, If you don't want people to think you are some uneducated d-bag, don't talk or act like one. Nobody on this forum asked what the your personal beliefs on religion and contraceptives are, so when you give an even more ridiculous and idiotic opinion, you will feel the brunt of educated individuals. Im not saying you are smart or not (although I have may guesses), but you do a great job acting like you're not.
                                 

                                iceman132

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                                  iceman132, If you don't want people to think you are some uneducated d-bag, don't talk or act like one. Nobody on this forum asked what the your personal beliefs on religion and contraceptives are, so when you give an even more ridiculous and idiotic opinion, you will feel the brunt of educated individuals. Im not saying you are smart or not (although I have may guesses), but you do a great job acting like you're not.

                                  This is far too ambiguous for me to pick out what you're talking about. I am giving an opinion of a very vocal minority (Maybe even the majority since it would't be unfair to say that religious people are the majority in the USA).

                                  You're not giving me an argument.... You're rambling because of your unjustified hatred of religion. (Sign of an uneducated d-bag though I don't know if you are,)

                                  First, I feel you are wrong the instant that you throw "and you will be a horrible pharmacist because" for a personal opinion. Dude, that is not cordial in the slightest. Plus, you aren't even a pharm student, much less in charge of arbitrary judgements of pharmacist quality. I notice this phrase is used with an astounding difference in frequency between this prepharm board & the pharmacy board.

                                  A sign of a horrible pharmacist would be calling other opinions "crap" He wasn't giving a subjective opinion. He was disrespecting religion as if it was an objective truth. I countered by saying this reaction would make a horrible pharmacist. (If you stand in your pharmacy and start blasting everyone who has a religious view you will make a horrible pharmacist) You need the whole context of the conversation.


                                  Second, how many jewish pharmacists are there? (The correct answer is a whole lot.) The Torah prohibits condoms as birth control, but not the pill. How many jewish pharmacists refuse to sell condoms? I have never met one, and I even know a few orthodox pharmacists.

                                  The torah prohibits birth control? Or prohibits selling birth control? These are two different things. Though you may not have the critical thinking skills to distinguish the difference. (Read more!)

                                  Beyond that, if you feel you need to push your agenda on me, religious or not, you're not going to like the results. We preserve the rights of religion in this country, but also the rights of others not to participate or be trampled by the majority (or vociferous minority).

                                  You see, this is where I know your just not reading the thread. My problem was with disrespecting religion and giving a few side points which I would think would be fun to argue. However you act as if I am cramming religion down your throat when I am just giving another side of the story SUBJECTIVELY.

                                  Of course, most of your points are just kind of rambling as you have already said. Point out specific instances (Like when I said disrespecting religion would create a horrible pharmacist) and then I would be happy to argue them.
                                   
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                                  WISBadger

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                                    The mere fact that a bunch of clowns lacking the knowledge of science got together and wrote a governing book explaining in ridiculous tales and throwing in a little aged wisdom, in a desperate effort to explain why it is that they exist, should absolutely not (in any circumstance) be used to decide which individuals are allowed access to basic healthcare. How some people think that they can not offer contraceptive options to young individuals because they blindly believe an old old old story, makes me chuckle really f*cking hard. Regardless of what you truly believe, keep it out of any decisions that affect the well-being (or even happiness) of people around you. Just because you read a book and are willing to believe something told to you by someone hundreds of years displaced from the "events", doesn't give you an all-abiding "moral standard". I hope you remain a pre-pharmacy student your whole life.
                                     

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                                      I should have mentioned earlier - some states do have legislature that either specifically protect or specifically do not protect pharmacists from refusing to dispense Plan B on moral objections. Many states have no specific legislation on the issue though.

                                      A google search will get you a list of which states are which.
                                       

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                                        Hmmm... I am not exactly sure. I do not believe that the LDS church takes an official stance on this issue. For most issues of a personal nature like this - The church lets the individual be guided by the spirit that leads them.

                                        There are fewer officials stances than most people believe there to be. None would prevent the sale (or use) of plan B.
                                         

                                        dancingallday

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                                          The torah prohibits birth control? Or prohibits selling birth control? These are two different things. Though you may not have the critical thinking skills to distinguish the difference. (Read more!)

                                          Ok, so if you want to look at it that way, is there a verse in the Bible which specifically says "Thou Shalt Not Sell Contraceptives"? I was raised Christian, and the last time I checked, there wasn't. It all boils down to pushing a personal agenda and beliefs on others; the mentality that "if I live MY life this way, then YOU should too!!"
                                           
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                                            The point is that as professionals, we should be understanding of others' viewpoints. I personally see nothing wrong with selling Plan B. I've witnessed pharmacy staff making several derogatory remarks as a girl walks away with it, and that is unacceptable behavior.

                                            If the pharmacist believes that the drug is an abortifacient and refuses to sell it because he considers it being a party to sin, then that is his belief. I do think he should at the very least be required to direct them to where it is sold. When our pharmacist would lie (I would keep the place stocked with the stuff) and say we were sold out, I would direct the person to the closest planned parenthood. Incidentally, it was something like $15 cheaper there than at our pharmacy.
                                             
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                                            rxlea

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                                              The point is that as professionals, we should be understanding of others' viewpoints. I personally see nothing wrong with selling Plan B. I've witnessed pharmacy staff making several derogatory remarks as a girl walks away with it, and that is unacceptable behavior.

                                              If the pharmacist believes that the drug is an abortifacient and refuses to sell it because he considers it being a party to sin, then that is his belief. I do think he should at the very least be required to direct them to where it is sold. When our pharmacist would lie (I would keep the place stocked with the stuff) and say we were sold out, I would direct the person to the closest planned parenthood. Incidentally, it was something like $15 cheaper there than at our pharmacy.

                                              The problem is that some people can't just get to another pharmacy if they don't have the transportation to do so. Some just go to the pharmacy near their house, especially in lower income areas. They walk there.
                                               

                                              iceman132

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                                                Ok, so if you want to look at it that way, is there a verse in the Bible which specifically says "Thou Shalt Not Sell Contraceptives"? I was raised Christian, and the last time I checked, there wasn't. It all boils down to pushing a personal agenda and beliefs on others; the mentality that "if I live MY life this way, then YOU should too!!"

                                                Wow, it's like talking to an obese person. Of course you should push your agenda if its within reason. You think it's best for the community so you push that agenda. (You think it's best to sell contraceptives and they don't think so)

                                                Stop trying to force pharmacists to sell products they don't believe in. Again, it's freedom of religion. I don't know where you're getting this idea that their forcing you not to get contraception when their just refusing to sell it.


                                                The mere fact that a bunch of clowns lacking the knowledge of science got together and wrote a governing book explaining in ridiculous tales and throwing in a little aged wisdom, in a desperate effort to explain why it is that they exist, should absolutely not (in any circumstance) be used to decide which individuals are allowed access to basic healthcare. How some people think that they can not offer contraceptive options to young individuals because they blindly believe an old old old story, makes me chuckle really f*cking hard. Regardless of what you truly believe, keep it out of any decisions that affect the well-being (or even happiness) of people around you. Just because you read a book and are willing to believe something told to you by someone hundreds of years displaced from the "events", doesn't give you an all-abiding "moral standard". I hope you remain a pre-pharmacy student your whole life.


                                                Alright gangstaaaaaaa. You keep thinking like that. You're not really arguing anything but just rambling how much you hate religion.
                                                 
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                                                iceman132

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                                                  The problem is that some people can't just get to another pharmacy if they don't have the transportation to do so. Some just go to the pharmacy near their house, especially in lower income areas. They walk there.

                                                  And is it the pharmacists fault?

                                                  Look, if I run a hospital and I don't feel like building an emergency room should I be forced to?

                                                  Supply and demand... This is AMERICA. Supply and demand baby. If I don't feel like supplying it then I don't have to..... UNLESS it is specifically detailed in my DUTY as a pharmacist. .... Which obviously it's not since pharmacists don't sell contraceptives quite blatantly.
                                                   

                                                  Pojman

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                                                    And is it the pharmacists fault?

                                                    Look, if I run a hospital and I don't feel like building an emergency room should I be forced to?

                                                    Supply and demand... This is AMERICA. Supply and demand baby. If I don't feel like supplying it then I don't have to..... UNLESS it is specifically detailed in my DUTY as a pharmacist. .... Which obviously it's not since pharmacists don't sell contraceptives quite blatantly.

                                                    Iceman, your a brave man for standing up for what you believe in. Good for you!

                                                    I have decided that Iceman is right, and everyone else is wrong. Case closed!
                                                     

                                                    seaswim

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                                                      I have not seen the term "Judge-y" used since I was a teenager..

                                                      Is it just me, or does the word Judge-y make anyone else think of pudding?

                                                      ...pudding? I thought I just tacked on an ending to an applicable word.


                                                      Supply and demand... This is AMERICA. Supply and demand baby. If I don't feel like supplying it then I don't have to.....

                                                      Supply and demand? There is demand for plan B, yet you choose not to supply. I don't follow your logic.
                                                       

                                                      iceman132

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                                                        ...pudding? I thought I just tacked on an ending to an applicable word.




                                                        Supply and demand? There is demand for plan B, yet you choose not to supply. I don't follow your logic.

                                                        Ehhhh, you're right. More like you don't have to supply even if there is a demand. Because THIS IS AMERICA!! NOT COMMUNIST RUSSIA! F YEAH!!
                                                         
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                                                        romylove

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                                                          Wow, it's like talking to an obese person. Of course you should push your agenda if its within reason. You think it's best for the community so you push that agenda. (You think it's best to sell contraceptives and they don't think so)

                                                          Stop trying to force pharmacists to sell products they don't believe in. Again, it's freedom of religion. I don't know where you're getting this idea that their forcing you not to get contraception when their just refusing to sell it..
                                                          Your agenda is within reason? Only by your standards. As a science major, I try to look at things from a scientific standpoint. To me, your agenda is unreasonable. Most people are just fine with the sale and use of contraceptives. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many options.

                                                          People are going to have sex. It's a basic biological urge. Why restrict their options and add to the world's population problem? Or cause children to be born to people who don't want them or can't afford them? That would just lead to higher rates of abortion, abandonment, and child abuse.

                                                          Also, products they don't believe in? It's science, not magic. Drugs have very specific methods of action, as you really ought to know, seeing as you plan to be a pharmacist. Hormonal birth control prevents ovulation. Without an egg, no "life" can be created or destroyed. Plan B prevents ovulation, and possibly implantation. It's only death if you believe that life begins at fertilization, which is just stupid. Going down this road means that scientologists would be allowed to refuse psych meds to people who need them, because they "don't believe" in mental illness.
                                                           

                                                          iceman132

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                                                            Your agenda is within reason? Only by your standards. As a science major, I try to look at things from a scientific standpoint. To me, your agenda is unreasonable. Most people are just fine with the sale and use of contraceptives. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many options.

                                                            People are going to have sex. It's a basic biological urge. Why restrict their options and add to the world's population problem? Or cause children to be born to people who don't want them or can't afford them? That would just lead to higher rates of abortion, abandonment, and child abuse.

                                                            Also, products they don't believe in? It's science, not magic. Drugs have very specific methods of action, as you really ought to know, seeing as you plan to be a pharmacist. Hormonal birth control prevents ovulation. Without an egg, no "life" can be created or destroyed. Plan B prevents ovulation, and possibly implantation. It's only death if you believe that life begins at fertilization, which is just stupid. Going down this road means that scientologists would be allowed to refuse psych meds to people who need them, because they "don't believe" in mental illness.

                                                            *Yawn* It's getting pretty boring seeing people twist my words over and over. I'm fine with people selling contraceptives also.

                                                            My problem is with people saying you should be forced to sell contraception when there is this little thing called freedom of religion.
                                                             
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                                                            romylove

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                                                            Amarillo, TX
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                                                              *Yawn* It's getting pretty boring seeing people twist my words over and over.

                                                              If I don't want to sell something then where do you get off telling me that I have to.
                                                              If you don't want to sell them, go open your own pharmacy. Good luck competing with the chains. I am glad that I work at a chain and their policy is to sell Plan B to anyone 17 or older. And I do mean anyone. I'm more than happy to sell it to them.
                                                               

                                                              iceman132

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                                                                If you don't want to sell them, go open your own pharmacy. Good luck competing with the chains. I am glad that I work at a chain and their policy is to sell Plan B to anyone 17 or older. And I do mean anyone. I'm more than happy to sell it to them.

                                                                So am I. If you read the thread you would realize I said this three times.

                                                                Stop jumping to conclusions. It's almost hilarious if it wasn't so annoying.
                                                                 

                                                                iceman132

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                                                                  People are going to have sex. It's a basic biological urge. Why restrict their options and add to the world's population problem? Or cause children to be born to people who don't want them or can't afford them? That would just lead to higher rates of abortion, abandonment, and child abuse..

                                                                  Yup, cause there's no way to not have sex.

                                                                  Also, products they don't believe in? It's science, not magic. Drugs have very specific methods of action, as you really ought to know, seeing as you plan to be a pharmacist. Hormonal birth control prevents ovulation. Without an egg, no "life" can be created or destroyed. Plan B prevents ovulation, and possibly implantation. It's only death if you believe that life begins at fertilization, which is just stupid. Going down this road means that scientologists would be allowed to refuse psych meds to people who need them, because they "don't believe" in mental illness

                                                                  Life does begin at fertilization. That's a scientific fact.
                                                                   

                                                                  Pojman

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                                                                    It's only death if you believe that life begins at fertilization, which is just stupid.

                                                                    Bummer.. Your post was very good until I read this. Telling someone that they are stupid for their opinion on something that clearly allows the individual to form their own point of view is just plain stupid.

                                                                    I guess my point is, I think that the above quote is stupid. When it comes to issues like this, the individual can make their own opinion because there is no way to prove one way or the other. It is kinda like evolution.

                                                                    Crap - did I contradict myself?
                                                                     

                                                                    NaOH

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                                                                      Pojman

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                                                                        This is kinda silly.

                                                                        Has anyone read a journal stating that life begins at fertilization?

                                                                        Has anyone read a journal stating that life does not begin at fertilization?

                                                                        It is up to you to form an opinion.

                                                                        For me - life starts at the moment that the man and woman begin thinking about the act of making babies. That way, I am extra safe about it. And no - there are no scientific journals that support this.
                                                                         

                                                                        iceman132

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                                                                          This is kinda silly.

                                                                          Has anyone read a journal stating that life begins at fertilization?

                                                                          Has anyone read a journal stating that life does not begin at fertilization?

                                                                          It is up to you to form an opinion.

                                                                          For me - life starts at the moment that the man and woman begin thinking about the act of making babies. That way, I am extra safe about it. And no - there are no scientific journals that support this.

                                                                          No, as soon as that Sperm hits the egg you are starting life (You then go through the morula-->blastula-->implantation--> gastrula process). That is basic human biology.
                                                                           
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                                                                          Pojman

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                                                                            No, as soon as that Sperm hits the egg you are starting life. That is basic human biology.

                                                                            Have you ever rode on the back of a sperm while approaching an egg examining the exact moment when life occurs? I doubt that you have.

                                                                            At most, you have read about it in a standard text book and now you can state a few facts, mixed with a few big words, and now you think that you have a better opinion because it is "educated".

                                                                            The basic fact here is that there is a relative answer to this question depending on who you ask. The exact moment that life occurs is not an established fact, because there is no real way to know the exact moment that consciousness happens.

                                                                            So please - put your biology book away. You will not change any minds.
                                                                             

                                                                            iceman132

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                                                                              Have you ever rode on the back of a sperm while approaching an egg examining the exact moment when life occurs? I doubt that you have.

                                                                              At most, you have read about it in a standard text book and now you can state a few facts, mixed with a few big words, and now you think that you have a better opinion because it is "educated".

                                                                              The basic fact here is that there is a relative answer to this question depending on who you ask. The exact moment that life occurs is not an established fact, because there is no real way to know the exact moment that consciousness happens.

                                                                              So please - put your biology book away. You will not change any minds.

                                                                              Are we talking about consciousness or when a life begins?

                                                                              Because you can't seem to differentiate the two.

                                                                              Life beginning at fertilization IS A FACT.
                                                                               

                                                                              Pojman

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                                                                                Are we talking about consciousness or when a life begins?

                                                                                Because you can't seem to differentiate the two.

                                                                                Life beginning at fertilization IS A FACT.

                                                                                Call it whatever you want. It really does not matter if you differentiate the two. That is not the subject that is being debated.

                                                                                Life beginning at fertilization is not a fact. And trust me - I wish it was a fact just as much as you do, but it is not a "scientific fact".

                                                                                I have two children of my own, so I have been there and done that, and I agree 100% that life begins at fertilization. But, as far as the "scientific facts go" it is not an established fact. If it is a fact, I would like you to please prove me wrong by citing a scientific journal that has been peer reviewed and widely accepted as fact by the scientific community that life begins at fertilization. I would appreciate if you could do this so that I can use this material in future debate.

                                                                                Anyway, as much as we do not like it - people are free to make the moral decision for themselves.
                                                                                 
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