Drug test for pharmacy school?

iceman132

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    Call it whatever you want. It really does not matter if you differentiate the two. That is not the subject that is being debated.

    Life beginning at fertilization is not a fact. And trust me - I wish it was a fact just as much as you do, but it is not a "scientific fact".

    I have two children of my own, so I have been there and done that, and I agree 100% that life begins at fertilization. But, as far as the "scientific facts go" it is not an established fact. If it is a fact, I would like you to please prove me wrong by citing a scientific journal that has been peer reviewed and widely accepted as fact by the scientific community that life begins at fertilization. I would appreciate if you could do this so that I can use this material in future debate.

    Anyway, as much as we do not like it - people are free to make the moral decision for themselves.

    http://www.prolifephysicians.org/lifebegins.htm

    Just google "life begins at fertilization. Even the most ridiculous liberal realizes this simple fact.

    It's like you're telling me the Simpsons are not a cartoon. It's a defined fact.
     
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    iceman132

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      Ok.. That is a blog, not a scientific journal.

      You make a good point. This should be approached differently than what I am saying. I guess the issue is this - When does "human" life start?

      That's a little better. I'll help you out a bit.

      You are definitely a life. The question is if we consider that life to be of human worth.

      US law sine Roe v. Wade has said the right to kill you before you are born is more important than your life.
       

      Pojman

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        That's a little better. I'll help you out a bit.

        You are definitely a life. The question is if we consider that life to be of human worth.

        Thanks for helping me out. That was really nice of you.

        So yea - answer your question. Can we define the exact moment that we consider life of "human worth"? And, can this answer satisfy every individual moral sensibility?
         

        Pojman

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          Ok then - I guess that ends our debate. The moment that "human life" is created is a moral decision that individuals can make for themselves.

          The moral decision that abortion of the "biological mass" is not OK at any point in time is a decision that an individual can make.

          The moral decision that abortion of the "biological mass" is OK, as long as it is before a set time is a decision that an individual can make.

          Some would argue that those that choose the latter have a firey abyss called hell awaiting them. Or - some could choose that such nonsense does not exist.

          I figure - it ain't my problem! I learned how to practice safe sex from the love scene in "The Naked Gun".

          For those of you who need a lesson in safe sex, please watch this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YFC0O393DQ
           

          iceman132

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            Ok then - I guess that ends our debate. The moment that "human life" is created is a moral decision that individuals can make for themselves.

            The moral decision that abortion of the "biological mass" is not OK at any point in time is a decision that an individual can make.

            The moral decision that abortion of the "biological mass" is OK, as long as it is before a set time is a decision that an individual can make.

            Some would argue that those that choose the latter have a firey abyss called hell awaiting them. Or - some could choose that such nonsense does not exist.

            I figure - it ain't my problem! I learned how to practice safe sex from the love scene in "The Naked Gun".

            For those of you who need a lesson in safe sex, please watch this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YFC0O393DQ

            No, the question isn't when human life is created. THAT is at fertilization. This is a fact of basic biology.

            The question is when that life is of human worth.
             
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            seaswim

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              This is kinda silly.

              Has anyone read a journal stating that life begins at fertilization?

              Has anyone read a journal stating that life does not begin at fertilization?

              It is up to you to form an opinion.

              For me - life starts at the moment that the man and woman begin thinking about the act of making babies. That way, I am extra safe about it. And no - there are no scientific journals that support this.

              This is exactly my point. He spelled fact wrong. It's actually spelled o-p-i-n-i-o-n. Do I need to go slower so he can understand me?


              I can tell just by looking at this domain name that this site will clearly be unbiased, and give me 100% of the facts. :rolleyes:
               

              iceman132

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                This is exactly my point. He spelled fact wrong. It's actually spelled o-p-i-n-i-o-n. Do I need to go slower so he can understand me?



                I can tell just by looking at this domain name that this site will clearly be unbiased, and give me 100% of the facts. :rolleyes:

                No, life begins at fertilization. This is a scientific fact. When I give a subjective opinion I state it as such.

                The quotes given on the website are from biology textbooks and leaders in the scientific community. Of course, you think you know better than people with PHDs :laugh:
                 

                owlegrad

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                  I really have no interest in this topic, but just because the word FACT keeps getting thrown out there, I feel compelled to point out that many, many people that life begins at implantation, not fertilization. I can't help but think we have a troll here. There is no such thing as the "fact" of when life begins.

                  That, or someone who fundamentally misunderstands what a fact is.
                   

                  iceman132

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                    I really have no interest in this topic, but just because the word FACT keeps getting thrown out there, I feel compelled to point out that many, many people that life begins at implantation, not fertilization. I can't help but think we have a troll here. There is no such thing as the "fact" of when life begins.

                    That, or someone who fundamentally misunderstands what a fact is.

                    Who exactly believes a life begins at implantation? Here is the definition of a fact:

                    A truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true

                    Again, http://www.prolifephysicians.org/lifebegins.htm

                    http://www.acpeds.org/When-Human-Life-Begins.html

                    "The difference between the individual in its adult stage and in its zygotic stage is not one of personhood but of development."

                    http://www.healingtheculture.com/lifebegins.php
                    Since the mechanism by which mammals reproduce has been known for at least the last 150 years, any biologist in the world can tell you that a mammal's life begins when the sperm from the father unites with the egg from the mother. This process is called fertilization, and when the DNA from the father and mother have combined, the egg is called a fertilized egg, or zygote. When the zygote splits into two cells, it is called a two-celled embryo. When it splits into four cells, it is called a four-celled embryo, etc. The definition of "embryo" is "the youngest form of a being."

                    If this being is nourished and protected, it will proceed uninterrupted through the developmental stages of embryo, fetus, newborn, toddler, child, teen, adult and aged adult: one continuous existence. This being never develops into a pig, a frog or a tree, but only into a human. This being is therefore, by definition, a living human being
                    Dr. Micheline M. Mathews-Roth, Harvard medical School, gave confirming testimony, supported by references from over 20 embryology and other medical textbooks that human life began at conception.
                    The "Father of Modern Genetics" Dr. Jerome Lejeune told the lawmakers: "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion ... it is plain experimental evidence."
                    Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at the Mayo Clinic, added: "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."
                    Dr. McCarthy de Mere, medical doctor and law professor, University of Tennessee, testified: "The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception."
                    Dr. Alfred Bongiovanni, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, concluded, "I am no more prepared to say that these early stages represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty ... is not a human being."
                    Dr. Richard V. Jaynes: "To say that the beginning of human life cannot be determined scientifically is utterly ridiculous."
                    Dr. Landrum Shettles, sometimes called the "Father of In Vitro Fertilization" notes, "Conception confers life and makes that life one of a kind." And on the Supreme Court ruling _Roe v. Wade_, "To deny a truth [about when life begins] should not be made a basis for legalizing abortion."
                    Professor Eugene Diamond: "...either the justices were fed a backwoods biology or they were pretending ignorance about a scientific certainty."

                    "That is, in human reproduction, when sperm joins ovum, these two individual cells cease to be, and their union generates a new and distinct organism. This organism is a whole, though in the beginning developmentally immature, member of the human species. Readers need not take our word for this: They can consult any of the standard human-embryology texts, such as Moore and Persaud's The Developing Human, Larsen's Human Embryology, Carlson's Human Embryology & Developmental Biology, and O'Rahilly and Mueller's Human Embryology & Teratology." – Dr. Robert George

                    "Human embryos, whether they are formed by fertilization (natural or in vitro) or by successful somatic-cell nuclear transfer (SCNT — i.e., cloning), do have the internal resources and active disposition to develop themselves to the mature stage of a human organism, requiring only a suitable environment and nutrition. In fact, scientists distinguish embryos from other cells or clusters of cells precisely by their self-directed, integral functioning — their organismal behavior. Thus, human embryos are what the embryology textbooks say they are, namely, human organisms — living individuals of the human species — at the earliest developmental stage." – Dr. Robert George






                    I'll continue to believe the PHD scientists. Unless you have better explanations. (Which I'm happy to hear) Though I'm far more inclined to believe a biology book than anything else.

                    It's like you're trying to convince someone The Simpsons aren't factually a cartoon when by every definition they are.

                    Is it a fact that the Simpsons are yellow? Of course, there is SOME doubt (I could be psychotic or perhaps some study hasn't been done or some other ridiculous reasoning) but by every definition THEIR COLOR IS YELLOW. It isn't my choice to say they are pink (I've been watching a lot of Simpsons if you haven't noticed :) )
                     
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                    seaswim

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                      I'm really done with this, because I've seen some of this troll's other posts and I now realize this is clearly not a rational person.

                      Ice, please let me know when you graduate and I'll make sure to go out of my way to avoid your pharmacy. Thanks, bye.
                       

                      iceman132

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                        I'm really done with this, because I've seen some of this troll's other posts and I now realize this is clearly not a rational person.

                        Ice, please let me know when you graduate and I'll make sure to go out of my way to avoid your pharmacy. Thanks, bye.

                        Great argument my friend.

                        I cite research articles, quote well known PHD professors, medical doctors, biology books and then get called a troll. Looks like I've truly lost this round. :rolleyes:

                        I have and will continue to lose arguments and learn from them. However, the liberal media has brainwashed you into thinking think "Everyone's opinion is valid" and that is just wrong. There is time for subjective opinion and time for objective truth. Again, it's like I'm trying to convince someone "The Simpsons are yellow and it's a fact" while you are trying to convince me "No, some people think the Simpsons are pink and their opinion is valid"
                         
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                        dancingallday

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                          So long as we're jumped into the abortion debate...

                          And those websites were totally not biased in any way! :rolleyes: Really? prolifephysicians.org? healingtheculture.com's pro-life issues page? acpeds.org, which upon a brief examination reveals itself to be a highly conservative club for pediatricians? You'll forgive me if I'm not convinced. :laugh:
                           

                          iceman132

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                            So long as we're jumped into the abortion debate...

                            And those websites were totally not biased in any way! :rolleyes: Really? prolifephysicians.org? healingtheculture.com's pro-life issues page? acpeds.org, which upon a brief examination reveals itself to be a highly conservative club for pediatricians? You'll forgive me if I'm not convinced. :laugh:

                            Yup, what do reason and logic have to do with it when you can just laugh it away :laugh: Of course YOU know far more than any educated scientist or embryology book :).

                            Another great argument though!!!


                            Isn't this thread topic called "Drug test for pharmacy school?" and not "Does life begin at fertilization or implantation?"
                            You may as well be asking if Obama or Katy Perry is President of the United States :laugh:
                             
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                            owlegrad

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                              They didn't drug test us for pharmacy school... but some rotation sites require it.

                              My first rotation site made it a point to say they don't require it and a classmate had a preceptor send a HUGE email saying they do not drug test, like size 28 font. I think it is funny, like what are we going to do with that information? Lol
                               

                              owlegrad

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                                Smoke your last doobie?

                                Apparently. :laugh:

                                Imagine getting an email like this:

                                Dear rxlea,

                                We are very excited to have you at our blah blah blah. Also,

                                WE DO NOT DRUG TEST!

                                Thank You,
                                Rotation Site

                                I mean goodness, what do they think of us that we need that information presented to us in that way? :lol:

                                 

                                iceman132

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                                  I have a question.....

                                  I had a roommate who stopped smoking Mary J because he said pharm school checked for it. However, he still took adderall.

                                  I'm guessing that pharmacy schools would only check for THC and not amphetamines?

                                  Just out of curiosity as I would never take that stuff.
                                   

                                  xtsukiyox

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                                    In the interest of responding to a post way up thread that apparently picked apart my post...

                                    The torah prohibits birth control? Or prohibits selling birth control? These are two different things. Though you may not have the critical thinking skills to distinguish the difference. (Read more!)

                                    You've hit on my point. This is the argument that the religious folks / pro-lifers make. "Because I / my religion don't (doesn't) believe in abortion, but I believe Plan B is abortion, I can't sell it to others." There is no argument to be made about whether one moral judgement is right over another - the entire point here is that I don't believe one person has the right to tread on another's rights in the name of religiosity, especially as a professional. Call me naive, but I believe there is some sort of solution that preserves both parties' rights.

                                    PS, the Torah does not prohibit birth control & in fact the pill is suggested in certain cases (although I can't be bothered to look up whether that is Torah or another place). It prohibits condoms. Talk about critical thinking skills.

                                    (Stuff where iceman decides I'm attacking him personally) ... However you act as if I am cramming religion down your throat when I am just giving another side of the story SUBJECTIVELY.

                                    This is where you misread my point. I stated my personal opinion, to the general "you." Unfortunately, English does not have a pronoun that fits the "general you" versus the specific "you." I was in no way responding to you, iceman, personally in that paragraph. I dig how you chose to respond to only this section, rather than the entire solution / opinion I proposed. Talk about needing context. Plus, who said I was responding to the whole thread? The only specific section I responded to is how the phrase "you will be a horrible pharmacist because" automatically loses the argument, because it's bunk. I think it's the Pre-Pharm board's version of calling up Hitler. Oh dang, I just lost by default.

                                    Of course, most of your points are just kind of rambling as you have already said. Point out specific instances (Like when I said disrespecting religion would create a horrible pharmacist) and then I would be happy to argue them.

                                    Again, assuming my points are personal attacks. Way to go. Not everything everybody posts is about you bro... Plus, why would I be limited to arguing the points you've made? :laugh:
                                     
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