drug use in medical school

[Bacchus]

True, goes to show how one-laned the discussion is.

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[Meatwad]

Legit question that I've had for a while, hopefully one of the residents has an answer (although I doubt anyone's thought of this scenario before):

Let's say I'm an attending surgeon, and I get a week off one year (yeah... unrealistic already, but bear with me). I go to a country where it's legal to smoke weed, so I go all out Cheech & Chong style and bake out for the whole week.

I come back to the US, and one of my patients happens to die when I operate on them a few days after being back. I'm obviously not affected by the maryjane anymore at this point. Do they drug test you when they think you f***ed up a case and the family wants to sue? If they get your blood it will come back saying you were smoking, and I doubt they can accurately gauge if you smoked 3 days ago (when still in whatever country) vs. that morning (back in the US). If they test you, sounds like you'd be f***ed, even though you never did anything illegal (you were only high and doing drugs in a country it was legal). Any ideas?

 

[Femme Fatale]

*

 

[PT2MD]

Law2Doc's post seems to have gone nearly completely unheeded by folks reading this thread. BTW, why is pot no big deal but cocaine is wayyyy off base? The answer is it doesn't matter: they are both illegal.

I am amazed how much this type of thread get's going.

 

[armybound]

Law2Doc's post seems to have gone nearly completely unheeded by folks reading this thread. BTW, why is pot no big deal but cocaine is wayyyy off base? The answer is it doesn't matter: they are both illegal.

I am amazed how much this type of thread get's going.

Weed's seen as harmless and coke is seen as hardcore.

 

[DrReo]

Here, at undergraduate, they're common. I'm sure there's a few that sneak by. I know a few pre-med stoners and they put up some stellar grades...

 

[KublaiKhan]

Law2Doc's post seems to have gone nearly completely unheeded by folks reading this thread. BTW, why is pot no big deal but cocaine is wayyyy off base? The answer is it doesn't matter: they are both illegal.

I am amazed how much this type of thread get's going.

Marijuana is a schedule III drug whereas cocaine is schedule II. Greater penalties for possession of coke than weed.

 

[PT2MD]

Marijuana is a schedule III drug whereas cocaine is schedule II. Greater penalties for possession of coke than weed.

Would either get you kicked out of medical school or put in jail? If the answer is "yes", you may want to shelf the bong for a few years and grow up. You may even discover there is life without the chronic and that most functioning adults struggle through life without legal or illegal drug use.

n.b. by "you", I wasn't referring to you specifically KK.

 

[Dr.Pdizzle]

Would either get you kicked out of medical school or put in jail? If the answer is "yes", you may want to shelf the bong for a few years and grow up. You may even discover there is life without the chronic and that most functioning adults struggle through life without legal or illegal drug use.

Since when does not smoking = maturity?

And I was waiting for the typical "smoking pot makes you a dolt" comment; it came soon enough, thanks tinkerbell. Perhaps smoking doesn't make you slow, but that many people who are slow choose to smoke?

 

[PT2MD]

Since when does not smoking = maturity?

As soon as you realize your career is not worth a bong hit.

 

[SketchLazy]

Rule #1 of the trade:

Never get high on your own supply...

Of course the person with a Tony Montana handle would come out of obscurity to quote that famous Michelle Pfeiffer line.

 

[paranoid_eyes]

honestly, we are all recreational drug users. alcohol is pretty fckin bad for your body (much worse -in the large quantities we drink- than illegal drugs like marijuana). cigarettes are also horrible. if you're against drug use, you should be against ALL drugs (alcohol included). if not, it should all be fair game...

 

[umean2tellme]

Anyone who uses drugs while in medical school should be kicked out and let someone who's clean take their place.

 

[armybound]

honestly, we are all recreational drug users. alcohol is pretty fckin bad for your body (much worse -in the large quantities we drink- than illegal drugs like marijuana). cigarettes are also horrible. if you're against drug use, you should be against ALL drugs (alcohol included). if not, it should all be fair game...

cigarettes and alcohol are legal, though. there's a difference.

 

[brsboarder]

If it doesn't affect their performance then there is no reason they shouldn't use it. I know countless people who will use marijuana in medical school. Maybe not on a daily basis, but after an exam. They are making the decision to use an illegal drug, so don't judge them because they might lose their license. Judge them on whether or not you think it is wrong. Statistically, doctors will use recreational drugs more so than most people in this world. They will be fairly wealthy and have access. It just means that they have to be reasonable. And, cops usually don't care about a joint, or a gram so they do not have too much to worry about unless they are being foolish.

 

[brsboarder]

in terms of the legal issue. Well, there are places where you aren't allowed to get an abortion in this world, does that mean that the women shouldn't be allowed to get them in those areas. Sometimes we have to break the law, and sometimes the law isn't the best it can be. Its not our fault that our country is run by lobbyists, maybe then marijuana would be legal and we wouldn't be having this debate

 

[Polynikes]

Isn't it commonly accepted that Kary Mullis is a big time drug user and discovered PCR while driving high?

That's what I heard dudes...

I heard that Mullis was driving while high and the concept of PCR just popped into his head.

He has also popped large quantities of LSD, and still won the Nobel Prize...

So....whatever.....

 

[armybound]

Freud was coked out of his mind. What's your point?

 

[kronickm]

From a legal standpoint this is obvious.

From a non-legal standpoint to each his own. Would I care particularly if my internist was stoned...not really...my surgeon during the operation...absolutely. Double standards abound.

btw that story about PCR and pot is great if true.

"PCR just popped into my head, go figure"

 

[Meatwad]

Freud was coked out of his mind. What's your point?

Freud is an irrelevance these days.

The point is you keep saying "it's illegal, enough said," but that logic will only take you so far. Partial-birth abortion is legal; does that mean you'd perform it?

I'm sure it's legal somewhere in the world to kill your wife if she cheats on you; so what? Is it the "right," thing to do? I'm sure it's illegal somewhere to speak freely against a ruling government party, does that mean you are "wrong," or a bad person for breaking this law?

Yeah, alcohol is legal and weed isn't, we get that. But the topic has seemed to have shifted towards "should we tolerate doctor's who smoke weed?" I'd say the answer is yes, because I don't see it having any more of a damaging effect on their work than alcohol does. Plenty of doctors drink, and I don't see our quality of medical services deteriorating because of it. If the argument was pertaining to them losing their licenses for smoking weed, well that's pretty much open and shut; no need to argue that. They committed a crime, so they are screwed. I wouldn't take pity on them, but I wouldn't condemn them as bad at their job because of it.

 

[Meatwad]

From a legal standpoint this is obvious.

From a non-legal standpoint to each his own. Would I care particularly if my internist was stoned...not really...my surgeon during the operation...absolutely. Double standards abound.

btw that story about PCR and pot is great if true.

"PCR just popped into my head, go figure"

Protect yourself and your family, know your reefer addict! These fiends are rapists, thieves, and murderers!

 

[Wylde]

do med schools or any kind of adcoms (etc., you get the point) do drug screenings?

A hospital I'm applying to volunteer at said they do drug screens when you want to apply...

 

[easilydoctor]

It depends on what types of recreational drugs you mean. Many people believe what a person does in their free time is a correlation to their competency but just as some people who would have made great doctors don't get into medical school, some drug-using citizens become physicians and are also great doctors. Maybe not a great person but I believe most are just as competent and if you were to record all of druggydocs' performances, drug-using doctors would create a similar stat'd bell curve as nondrug-using doctors.

 

[phantom limb]

Marijuana is a schedule III drug whereas cocaine is schedule II. Greater penalties for possession of coke than weed.

Marijuana is actually Schedule I.

 

[pakbabydoll]

I don't understand how can you be a medical student or even a pre med and smoke pot or do drugs? I mean every one knows that those things are bad for you but an every day person does not know what it really does to your body.
Its just like doctor and nurses who smoke. I see at the hospital all the time. Half of the nurses there smoke and I can't stand it.
How can you help some one else when you are destroying your self.


just my 2 cents.

 

[da8s0859q]

Marijuana is actually Schedule I.

Tell 'im what he's won, Johnny! I would've completely overlooked that.

DEA #7360. Bracketed by our favorites, LSD and mecloqualone, on the DEA's own schedule page.

I don't understand how can you be a medical student or even a pre med and smoke pot or do drugs? I mean every one knows that those things are bad for you but an every day person does not know what it really does to your body.
Its just like doctor and nurses who smoke. I see at the hospital all the time. Half of the nurses there smoke and I can't stand it.
How can you help some one else when you are destroying your self.

just my 2 cents.

I hate that little cliché about "do as I say, not as I do" and all that. Medicine just so happens to lend itself well. I wouldn't recommend that a patient go jump out of a plane and plummet towards unforgiving ground at ~120mph with the only hope being a big sheet of synthetic material attached to you by more synthetic material, but I love doing it despite the fact that it is a hugely unnecessary risk that can easily kill you.

'Tis a risk that I accepted when I first got the hairbrained (or so spoke almost everyone I know) idea to try it the first time. Y'know, kinda like that first syringe full o' the good stuff. Just seems like there's far more to medical practice - and life - than traditionally wise personal choices.

 

[leviathan]

How can you help some one else when you are destroying your self.

just my 2 cents.

I'm pretty sure someone's smoking habits don't hinder their ability to do their job.

 

[Dr.Pdizzle]

I don't understand how can you be a medical student or even a pre med and smoke pot or do drugs? [...]
How can you help some one else when you are destroying your self.

Ah yes, I am destroying myself . I'll probably die tomorrow due to the deleterious effects of pot. And if I didn't smoke, I'd surely live forever. If you're pre-med or a med student, you scare me.

 

[GoldShadow]

Eh, personally I think it's stupid to intentionally inhale any particulate matter (be it marijuana, cigarette smoke, or dust at a construction site) that can lodge itself permanently in the lungs and decrease the ability of the blood to obtain oxygen while simultaneously increasing my risk of various diseases and most types of cancer.

I'm just a premed though, what do I know?

 

[45408]

Also, a lot of people don't realize that marijuana is a highly addictive drug

Funny, in our med school psych class, they lumped it in with the non-addictive hallucinogens.

BTW, why is pot no big deal but cocaine is wayyyy off base?

A coronary artery vasospasm would probably seem like a big deal to you if it happened after snorting a line. Cocaethylene (coke + alky) is cardiotoxic as well.

 

[PT2MD]

A coronary artery vasospasm would probably seem like a big deal to you if it happened after snorting a line. Cocaethylene (coke + alky) is cardiotoxic as well.

It was a rhetorical question...both indicate bad judgement if they place your license at risk.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Funny, in our med school psych class, they lumped it in with the non-addictive hallucinogens.

Lol, our psych guy who taught us about marijuana dug up the one random study he could find to show it might maybe be addictive. He wasn't at all biased or anything.

I've got to say I actually do think it can be addictive just because I've known people who've displayed pretty classic addictive behavior with it. I've got no clue what causes the addiction and whether it's chemical or psychological (or even whether that's a meaningful distinction). I sincerely doubt it's "highly addictive" since it's a drug so many people have tried and even used regularly without addiction issues. If I really cared I'd do research.

But I still think the main risk is getting caught, not getting addicted.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Eh, personally I think it's stupid to intentionally inhale any particulate matter (be it marijuana, cigarette smoke, or dust at a construction site) that can lodge itself permanently in the lungs and decrease the ability of the blood to obtain oxygen while simultaneously increasing my risk of various diseases and most types of cancer.

I'm just a premed though, what do I know?

some bypass this health concern via the "magic brownie"

 

[Meatwad]

some bypass this health concern via the "magic brownie"

Or the vaporizer.

 

[crunchymilk]

marijuana is NOT addictive. Some people have addictive personalities and so they can become "addicted" to french fries or ice cream. Hell I work out everyday, I feel bad when I miss a workout, I guess that means working out is addictive

there is either a chemical dependence or there isn't. I choose not to smoke, but several of my friends do, and several of my friends have stats that would put even SDN to shame. To say that marijuana is addicting is....dumb

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

marijuana is NOT addictive. Some people have addictive personalities and so they can become "addicted" to french fries or ice cream. Hell I work out everyday, I feel bad when I miss a workout, I guess that means working out is addictive

there is either a chemical dependence or there isn't. I choose not to smoke, but several of my friends do, and several of my friends have stats that would put even SDN to shame. To say that marijuana is addicting is....dumb

But both chemical and psychological dependencies utilize the same neural "reward" pathways and the same biochemical signal.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

But both chemical and psychological dependencies utilize the same neural "reward" pathways and the same biochemical signal.

that argument can lead to almost any substance or thing, legal or illegal, accepted or fringe, into something that can be 'addictive.' Physiological addictiveness is really the only thing that can be measured objectively.

 

[crunchymilk]

that argument can lead to almost any substance or thing, legal or illegal, accepted or fringe, into something that can be 'addictive.' Physiological addictiveness is really the only thing that can be measured objectively.

that's what I was thinking but didn't want to type it out

 

[paranoid_eyes]

cigarettes and alcohol are legal, though. there's a difference.

only because of the ridiculously strong tobacco lobby and because tobacco companies sponsor so many of the studies that claim tobacco is safer

 

[Revenant]

only because of the ridiculously strong tobacco lobby and because tobacco companies sponsor so many of the studies that claim tobacco is safer

Let us not forget the pharmaceutical lobby that works hard to keep marijuana illegal so they can charge an arm and a leg for crappy painkillers that may or may not to more bodily harm than mary J.

 

[Meatwad]

only because of the ridiculously strong tobacco lobby and because tobacco companies sponsor so many of the studies that claim tobacco is safer

While I agree with you, you are ignoring his main point, which is that it does not matter whether or not its harmful. What matters is that its illegal, right or wrong. If drinking orange juice was all of a sudden deemed illegal, for no good reason, should a doctor be fired/med student kicked out of school for drinking it? Armybound's argument would be yes, because it is illegal. Therefore, it sounds like he has less of an issue with doctor's who make poor lifestyle decisions and more of an issue with a doctor who breaks a law, regardless of how much sense it makes.

And this is not to say I agree with him, but I do understand where he is coming from.

 

[tdkneo]

i'm a premed student and i'm curious how common recreational drug/prescription drug abuse is among medical students or residents.

i'm sure med students pop these pills like it's candy...

 

[Concubine]

For future doctors, some people in here are pretty damn stupid. Why would you put something into your body that you know will harm you or others (or potentially your future patients)? You keep telling yourself it's ok, but deep inside, you know it's not good.

 

[biobukowski]

It's actually a very troubling problem in medicine. Read the book The Tennis Partner by Abraham Verghesse. It's a book about something that is kept hush hush--the fact that doctors actually tend to be the worst kind of addicts out there. The book is autobiographical, and its about a 3rd year medical student (David) who comes to do his internal med rotation with him. David is an awesome guy but he was a meth and IV cocaine addict in the past, while in med school and before. And his addiction resurfaces. He even goes to an addiction clinic for doctors only where he hears of a surgeon that didn't think he had an addiction until he passed out face first into an open patient...it is a scary thought and something that everyone who wants to be a doctor should think about: how as a medical professional sometimes we can rationalize a small habit or we think we can decide when an addiction is actually influencing our life. These doctors thought that as long as they could work, they would be ok but the thing is that the last thing that goes is the ability to work...everything else will go first---family, friends, etc. And it is too late when you find yourself unable to perform medicine due to your addiction.

 

[tdkneo]

For future doctors, some people in here are pretty damn stupid. Why would you put something into your body that you know will harm you or others (or potentially your future patients)? You keep telling yourself it's ok, but deep inside, you know it's not good.

i know some doctors that are dependent on adderrall and medicinal marijuana to keep them focused and clear.......

 

[167649]

only because of the ridiculously strong tobacco lobby and because tobacco companies sponsor so many of the studies that claim tobacco is safer

And because the cigarette taxes help overcome the defecit when general and sales tax falls short. Imagine if marijuana was legal, how much money "Pot Corporations" would be pulling and how much money captiol hill would make taxing us for it. Weed corporations would be up there with oil and tobacco as far as lobbying power goes. Although one previous poster was right, the pharmaceutical industry would loose billions in painkiller profit margins, so they would throw down a storm.

 

[biobukowski]

Marijuana is a schedule III drug whereas cocaine is schedule II. Greater penalties for possession of coke than weed.

Oh Im pretty sure they're both Sched 1 (no medical use) since we dont use coke as an anesthetic anymore.

 

[Concubine]

i know some doctors that are dependent on adderrall and medicinal marijuana to keep them focused and clear.......

Again, they are fooling themselves.

 

[Meatwad]

For future doctors, some people in here are pretty damn stupid. Why would you put something into your body that you know will harm you or others (or potentially your future patients)? You keep telling yourself it's ok, but deep inside, you know it's not good.

What about alcohol? Unless you are restricting yourself to one glass of wine, alcohol is doing nothing but harming you. Who are you to say that a doctor is wrong for drinking alcohol, then?

 

[8744]

The thing is, if it's so easy to give up and none of you are addicted, that is, you can take it or leave it and only light up for mild recreation, why not give it up as the consequences can be disasterous to your career? You are guaranteed after all, to lose any malpractice suit no matter how frivolous or no matter how blameless you are if the plaintiff's attorney can demonstrate that you smoke weed or use any other drugs.