Duke Med school curriculum.....what!!??

[Chris127]

http://dukemed.duke.edu/Curriculum/index.cfm

After clicking on that link, you will discover that at Duke you have all of your basic sciences in the first year.

It says the 4th year is an elective, so what does that actually mean? You get to pick which fields you want to make rounds in?

Can anyone comment on this setup at Duke? Effective, noneffective? Anyone actually go to Duke?

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[WhoisJohnGalt]

http://dukemed.duke.edu/Curriculum/index.cfm

After clicking on that link, you will discover that at Duke you have all of your basic sciences in the first year.

It says the 4th year is an elective, so what does that actually mean? You get to pick which fields you want to make rounds in?

Can anyone comment on this setup at Duke? Effective, noneffective? Anyone actually go to Duke?

I didn't go to Duke, so I'm not the BEST person to answer your question, but I did apply/interview there. I'm confused because I was actually told that the 3rd year is the elective year... and that students may take it to work on a combined degree, do research, or whatever they want to do. So if they've restructured the curriculum, you're going to have to ask the MSI's at Duke. Anyway, hope that helps, if not, Duke has a really nice dean of admissions who'd be happy to answer your question.

 

[Wiggy73]

I interviewed at Duke, too. They claim they don't really smush two years' worth of material into one, they just cut out the stuff you don't need to know for the basic sciences. Second year is like most places' third year and fourth year is basically the same as it is anywhere.

 

[DeLaughterDO]

I didn't go to Duke, so I'm not the BEST person to answer your question, but I did apply/interview there. I'm confused because I was actually told that the 3rd year is the elective year... and that students may take it to work on a combined degree, do research, or whatever they want to do. So if they've restructured the curriculum, you're going to have to ask the MSI's at Duke. Anyway, hope that helps, if not, Duke has a really nice dean of admissions who'd be happy to answer your question.

Nice Ayn Rand reference!

Sorry, nothing to add

 

[Primum est non]

I live near Duke. Points?

 

[Uncle Izzy]

http://dukemed.duke.edu/Curriculum/index.cfm

After clicking on that link, you will discover that at Duke you have all of your basic sciences in the first year.

It says the 4th year is an elective, so what does that actually mean? You get to pick which fields you want to make rounds in?

Can anyone comment on this setup at Duke? Effective, noneffective? Anyone actually go to Duke?

To the OP... I'm a MS3 at Duke and the curriculum here is really different than elsewhere. The curriculum is very basically as follows:

MS1- 11 months of basic sciences plus the practice course which is a humanities and patient skills course. The practice course continues through years 1-2.

MS2- Core clinical clerkships, along with 5 intersessions between major blocks that cover topics from geriatrics to disaster preparedness. There are Two 2 week electives and 1 four week elective to get good exposure to subspecialties.

MS3- Individual scholarship. Approximately 30% or so of the class pursues dual degrees including MD/PhD, MD/JD, MD/MPH, MD/MBA, MD/MS, etc.. The MPH program is through UNC and can be done in one year so you get an MD/MPH in 4 yrs total. The rest of us do a year of research which can be in the basic sciences, clinical sciences, etc.. Regardless of the route you take, everyone is required to hand in a thesis. Many people apply for one year research scholarships such as the Howard Hughes fellowship, Doris Duke Clinical Research Fellowship, etc. Duke is extremely opent to letting you pursue just about anything you want as long as you can justify how it will benefit your medical education (and meet the requirements which are relatively loose). Many people go away to other schools/labs to do there work such as the NIH, etc.. There is also one year of continuity clinic where you go to a particular clinic once a week.

MS4- This year is reserved for clinical electives. You are required to do at least one sub-internship, one acute care (i.e. ER, anesthesia, ICU), and 5 clinical electives of your choice. Many people do away electives where they may want to apply for residency. There is also a 1 month capstone course which includes ACLS training, internship prep, life skills, legal issues in medicine, etc..

SO, to answer your question, there are some requirements, but you spend most of the 7-8 month year in clinical electives (such as sub specialties, etc.). Remember that during fourth year, you do a bit of traveling for interviews and applying for residency, not to mention taking step 2 at some point, so the year stays relatively busy.

The questions people usually have is how can Duke students be prepared with only one yr of basic sciences, but we consisitently do very well on step 1, so i guess it all works out in the end. It also helps that we take step 1 at some point during 3rd year which gives you tons of time to study relatively stress free of clinical responsibilities. At this point in third year, you have seen the material twice... once during first year and clinical presentations during second year. In essence, after you have studied, you have seen the material multiple times which makes it easier to study (or so I've heard from 4th yrs). I plan on taking step 1 at some point in late January and will be studying while I do my clinical research.

I personally love the curriculum and couldnt imagine doing it any other way. Each year is a finite period of time and there is always something new and different to look forward to in each year. Duke has had the third year research for about 30 years and with the new revisions in the curriculum, I think they have really gotten it right. The atmosphere is very laid back and non competitive and the classes are very tight knit especially during first year when everyone is in the same boat and working hard for those exams.

With that said, the curriculum is not for everyone. Duke expects alot of research and academic pursuit from its students. It is especially great if you are interested in academic medicine, although there are tons of Duke med grads who have pursued private practices as well. If you have any questions about it, drop me a line.

IZZY

 

[TommyGunn04]

I'm a 4th year student at Duke Med. I think Uncle Izzy covered the details pretty well, so I won't re-hash curricular specifics here. But if anyone has specific questions please feel free to post them here, or PM me, and I'm sure other Duke students will respond as well...there are a number of us who frequent SDN forums.

As a 4th year, I've been through over 3/4 of the Duke curriculum now, and I can't imagine doing it any other way. I came to Duke specifically because of the curriculum, because I didn't want to be sitting in class for the first two years learning passively (and then forgetting most of it), and I didn't want to waste my time doing PBL and lots of small group learning where time is not utilized efficiently. As others have said, the Duke curriculum is NOT for everyone, but if you're more of a hands on learner, as I am, then I highly recommend that you take a look. Furthermore, it enabled me to get a second degree during my 3rd year, our "research year," without having to spend an extra year in school, which is a huge bonus as well.

Many people are concerned about how Duke teaches what needs to be learned in just one year. As others have said, lots of material is simply cut out, and I think rightly so. For example, we only had two or three lectures on embryology...it's really not all that important for the vast majority of medicine, and it's not tested much on the boards either. And speaking of which, Duke's USMLE Step 1 average is reported to be the 2nd highest in the country! (234 was the last I heard) And that tells me that we're doing more than enough in the first year! But don't think it's somehow "twice as tough" as other schools...our daily schedule is no more rigorous than most other medical schools. Duke is really a phenomenal place! I really can't say enough great things about my experience here. And if you take a look at recent match lists you'll realize how well Duke students really do. It's quite unbelievable!

I also happen to love living in Durham. This area gets a bad wrap, but it's changed a LOT over the past 5 years, and most of the negativity is based on misconceptions, bad assumptions, and old information. I'd be happy to speak about Durham a bit as well if you're interested.

Anyway, I hope that's helpful.

 

[Chris127]

Izzy and Tommy, wow, great posts!!! I really appreciate it.

1) So in your 3rd year, you have the opportunity to do research or pursue another degree, yet you must produce a thesis at the end. Would either of you mind expatiating on this a bit? Is this a presentation you give, or is it an extensive paper than you simply hand in? Also, how can one pursue another degree in just (1) year? Wouldnt it take longer? Or does this pursuit of say, an MBA, start in your 3rd year and then carry on to your senoir and residency years?

2) Since you are learning all the basic sciences in 1 year, do you feel that the MS1 year at Duke is more intense than other MS1 years at other schools?

3) Lastly, I am a premed undergrad, yet it is never too soon to start looking. I lived in NC for 10 years (Winston Salem), so I really love the area. So naturally, I am looking at WFU as well. Does WFU have a similar academic structure ( somone mentioned that WFU originally initiated this class structure)

Thanks for any responses.

 

[Uncle Izzy]

Izzy and Tommy, wow, great posts!!! I really appreciate it.

1) So in your 3rd year, you have the opportunity to do research or pursue another degree, yet you must produce a thesis at the end. Would either of you mind expatiating on this a bit? Is this a presentation you give, or is it an extensive paper than you simply hand in? Also, how can one pursue another degree in just (1) year? Wouldnt it take longer? Or does this pursuit of say, an MBA, start in your 3rd year and then carry on to your senoir and residency years?

To clartify a bit, yes, the thesis is basically an extended paper of your main project. I must be original and written by the student, based on your work from the entire year. The only program you can do in 4 yrs is the MD/MPH as UNC will allow you to finish the program in 2 semesters while you do your research concurrently.
The other programs are done in the conventional amount of time but you still get a yr of your time back, i.e. MBA is a 2 yr program, and as such, MD/MBA is 5 yrs. The way that program specifically works is that people do 3 semesters of MBA to complete the required course work for the degree then do a full summer plus one semester to complete their research (many times in health care finance, or such). After getting your masters, you then return for your fourth year and apply to residency.
Many students also do "side" projects such as retrospective clinical papers or case reports to start getting some publications out there and further develop relationships with the clinical faculty. Hey... padding your stats with some publications is always a good thing for residency apps.
For all the info you can handle on the third year including dual degree programs, research mentors, requirements, etc., I refer you to the third year website:
http://thirdyear.mc.duke.edu/

2) Since you are learning all the basic sciences in 1 year, do you feel that the MS1 year at Duke is more intense than other MS1 years at other schools?

I really dont think so. The only way that the year is more intense is that it's about 11 or so months long. Remember that it's probably less inclusive than most other basic science curricula out there so it's do-able. The actual schedule is from about 8 or 9 to 4PM or so. Almost all classes are not mandatory. Also, there are well dispersed breaks, holidays and long weekends to keep from getting burned out. There is never more than one exam a week, although sometimes you go 3 or 4 weeks on a row with an exam every monday. It's med school. Nobody said it would be cake. I just broke it into chunks and did them as three week "pieces." There is always a light at the end of the tunnel. Besides, it's only based on three grades, one is P/F, the other 2 are H/P/F. P = MD, and Duke does not disclose class rank.

The best thing about the condensed year is that there are so many ways to study given all of the resources. These resources include:
1. Profs notes and outlines, huge course packs
2. previous yrs student notes and outlines
3. The text book (usually written by the prof... for example our neuro course is taught by Dale Purves, et al)
4. All lectures are streamed online (watch at double speed from the comfort of your own couch... 55 min lecture in 27 mins is a blessing when cramming)
5. A monstrous test bank
6. The actual lecture should you chose to go.
7. Study groups- the atmosphere is extremely non competitive.
Everyone finds what works best for them and goes with it.

3) Lastly, I am a premed undergrad, yet it is never too soon to start looking. I lived in NC for 10 years (Winston Salem), so I really love the area. So naturally, I am looking at WFU as well. Does WFU have a similar academic structure ( somone mentioned that WFU originally initiated this class structure)

Thanks for any responses.

To my knowledge, I dont believe Wake has a similar curriculum. I cant speak on their behalf though and if there is a Wake Med person out there, maybe they can answer... I know Penn has a related curriculum where I think they do 18 months of basic science and find time to dedicate to research. I'm not sure.

Keep looking around. You're on the right track researching different schools and finding what might work for you. I know it seems early, but next thing you know, you're doing your first GYN exam.

 

[TommyGunn04]

I agree with Uncle Izzy...it really is NOT any more intense than any other medical school curriculum, and it's a fantastically supportive environment. Regardless of what people say (and I hear this a LOT), I can assure you that Duke does NOT "cram two years into one." And who better to comment on this than current students like us, right? We've been through it, and we can vouch for this fact.

By the way, it's also possible to do other dual-degree programs in just one year, besides just the MPH, which is the most popular option. I know someone who got a master's degree in another department at the University during his third year, and there's a newly-approved master of arts degree in "liberal studies" (called "MALS") that's a one-year program if I understand it correctly. But you're correct that with the MBA it does take two years. However, at most other schools it would take you 4 years of med school PLUS two years of business school, whereas at Duke it takes you 5 years total, so you save a whole year! That's one of the huge benefits of the Duke curriculum. It works for MD/PhD students too, who get to count their PhD work to satisfy the 3rd year requirements, effectively saving a whole year and thus graduating a year sooner than MD/PhD students at most other schools! And it's not like we're missing out on anything. In fact, I'd argue that Duke students have an advantage in that we get significant clinical exposure a whole year sooner than most of our counterparts. This allows us to have a better integration of basic science and clinical knowledge by the time we graduate, positioning us to be great residents. Based on how well Duke students do in the residency match, it would seem that program directors wholeheartedly agree!

 

[quideam]

Out of curiousity, during your 3rd year, do you still have to pay Duke tuition? Do you pay anything at all that year?

 

[TommyGunn04]

Out of curiousity, during your 3rd year, do you still have to pay Duke tuition? Do you pay anything at all that year?

It totally depends on what you choose to do with your 3rd year. If you're doing research, you just pay Duke tuition as usual. However, most students who do basic science research get some sort of scholarship/grant support, whether it be from the NIH, the ADA, or even some of the internal Duke scholarships for 3rd year research. This helps defray the cost quite a bit for many students. For those who choose the dual-degree path, it's also variable. If you choose the MPH, Duke generally pays your tuition to UNC, and you just pay the usual Duke tuition. If you choose the MBA, I think you end up paying one year of Duke Med tuition and one year of Fuqua School of Business tuition. But Duke Med will NEVER make you pay more than 4 years of tuition to them, even if you choose to spend an extra year doing research. This has been a popular option in the past, with a number of students effectively spending 2 years on their "3rd year" research, because things were going well, they enjoyed it, or perhaps just to boost their residency applications, or even for other reasons. Some students have opted to take a leave of absence for a year or two to pursue a degree elsewhere, such as at the Harvard School of Public Health, and those students obviously don't pay Duke Med tuition while they're "on leave."

 

[TommyGunn04]

Out of curiousity, during your 3rd year, do you still have to pay Duke tuition? Do you pay anything at all that year?

By the way, for those who don't know, Duke Med's financial aid is just about the best in the country, if not THE best. Duke students average debt on graduation is on par with state schools rather than private schools (well under $100,000), and they literally DOUBLED the amount of grant money they offered me as compared to schools of similar caliber like Penn.

 

[Pinesinger]

3) Lastly, I am a premed undergrad, yet it is never too soon to start looking. I lived in NC for 10 years (Winston Salem), so I really love the area. So naturally, I am looking at WFU as well. Does WFU have a similar academic structure ( somone mentioned that WFU originally initiated this class structure)

I'm an MSIII at Wake, and our curriculum is very different than Duke's. The first two years are basic clinical sciences with a lot of emphasis on PBL. We also take the "Foundations of Clinical Medicine" class which includes physical exam, interviewing etc, in addition to "Medicine as a Profession" which is basically our medical ethics class. Clerkships begin in late April of the second year and go for one year. Fourth year includes some mandatory rotations as well as clinical electives.

I'm a big fan of the Wake curriculum, it is highly integrated and I think quite progressive. PBL is not for everyone but I love it, it's a great way for me to learn and retain. I've been told our Step 1 scores are near the average, and our Step 2 scores are significantly above the average.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any other questions about Wake

 

[quideam]

Hmm.... okay, but say you want to do your MPH at Harvard during your third year. Can you 'take leave' during third year and just pay the Harvard tuition, or would you have to pay Harvard tuition plus Duke tuition for the year? Or can you not take a leave of a year - just between years? (as in, if you leave for Harvard for a year, you'll still have that 'elective third year'?)

Q

 

[Uncle Izzy]

Hmm.... okay, but say you want to do your MPH at Harvard during your third year. Can you 'take leave' during third year and just pay the Harvard tuition, or would you have to pay Harvard tuition plus Duke tuition for the year? Or can you not take a leave of a year - just between years? (as in, if you leave for Harvard for a year, you'll still have that 'elective third year'?)

Q

Interesting you ask the question because I have a classmate doing exactly that... He is doing his MPH in 1 yr at Harvard and is paying Harvard tuition. He is also responsible for that year of Duke tuition as well.

While I have no idea what scholarship/aid status he has nor am I about to speculate, remember that Duke's average debt is extremely low and third year counts towards aid/scholarships as well so you can actually get a chunk of that money back.

I have another friend doing MD/MBA and is doing his MBA at UNC. Since he is not at Fuqua (Duke's business school) he is responsible for both tuitions for one year, but only UNC for year 2 of his MBA. He is an in state resident and as such pays public school in-state tuition which in the end, 1 yr of Duke med tuition plus 2 yrs of UNC MBA tuition comes out to about the same as 1 yr of Duke Med tution plus 1 yr of Fuqua tuition.

The finances are not as simple as one would think mainly because of the great financial aid situation and the availability of scholarships (bith for med school as well as other grad programs and independent research).

The bottom line though is that you are at the end responsible for 4 years of tuition to Duke Med, regardless of how you finance it. HOWEVER... You are only responsible for 3rd year tuition once. You do not have to pay tuition for subsequent yrs of research or multiple years of a second degree.

If you want specifics on the details of the situation you present, PM me and I will get you in touch with that student so he can explain it to you better.

 

[quideam]

Ah, thanks! No, no, I was just curious - I had considered Duke, but decided not to even apply because of the location (family/friends in NY/NJ area), and was just curious about how the 3rd year works. My school also has 'amazing' financial aid (supposedly some of the best in the country), but I don't get any help at all because my family makes too much $ (I suppose). I'm kind of in that position where my family makes too much for me to ever get fin. aid. from anywhere, but isn't willing to pay my tuition (not that I would ask - they help me out with rent/food as it is).

Anyway, thanks for the info - satisfied my curiousity . Now, if Duke let you not pay your 3rd year tution - meaning an MPH at Harvard would, essentially, be free - THEN that would be an amazing bargain and I would be kicking myself right now .

Q

 

[Dulcina]

question specifically about the third year...

I'm interested in an MPH, but worried about cramming a 2yr program into 1yr, and on top of that having to do a research thesis.

Quoting a site, ""A thesis manuscript for publication in a peer-reviewed journal or a grant application following the prescribed guidelines of the Third Year Committee is required of all students."

Does the MPH research often cover this? Sometimes? Rarely? It scares me to see a 2yr degree + additional research stuck in 1 yr.

thanks

 

[diosa428]

question specifically about the third year...

I'm interested in an MPH, but worried about cramming a 2yr program into 1yr, and on top of that having to do a research thesis.

Quoting a site, ""A thesis manuscript for publication in a peer-reviewed journal or a grant application following the prescribed guidelines of the Third Year Committee is required of all students."

Does the MPH research often cover this? Sometimes? Rarely? It scares me to see a 2yr degree + additional research stuck in 1 yr.

thanks

The MPH curriculum usually requires a research project, which satisfies the research requirement at Duke. The MPH at UNC has several tracks, all of which can be done, but most of which do take 2 years. You should check out their website for specifics on which tracks can be completed in one year. Some other schools (JHU, Harvard) seem to offer more one year programs under a variety of topics, but you would have to pay the tuition to attend one of those schools.

 

[MrBurns10]

Does the MPH research often cover this? Sometimes? Rarely? It scares me to see a 2yr degree + additional research stuck in 1 yr.

Your MPH thesis, or the one you do for any other masters degree, does count for your thesis requirement. Also, if you end up doing research, you can either use a first author publication (which everyone hopes to get), a grant you wrote, or just a 10-20 page non-published summary of your work.

Also, the MPH isn't usually a 2 year degree, or at least not always. There are plenty of one-year degrees out there.

Edit: diosa, as usual, beat me to it.

 

[diosa428]

Edit: diosa, as usual, beat me to it.

Get with the program man.

 

[Dulcina]

thanks diosa and mr burns =)

there goes duke back onto my list!

 

[SoCuteMD]

The MPH curriculum usually requires a research project, which satisfies the research requirement at Duke. The MPH at UNC has several tracks, all of which can be done, but most of which do take 2 years. You should check out their website for specifics on which tracks can be completed in one year. Some other schools (JHU, Harvard) seem to offer more one year programs under a variety of topics, but you would have to pay the tuition to attend one of those schools.

Just wanted to note that as I understand it, Duke Med students are free to take the extra year to finish up the MPH at UNC if they pick a two year track. One of my friends did and said the cost was minimal. I'm sure MrBurns or diosa know better than I do, though.

A number of my friends have gone to Duke Med and really liked it. As I understand it, they take their Step 1 in third year. One of my friends mentioned that was a little stressful. However, it's something Duke students won't have to worry about for too much longer since the NBME is redesigning the Step 1/Step 2 sequence into 1 test.

 

[njbmd]

Medical school curriculum discussions are pre-med issues and this thread is moved to Pre-Allo. Allopathic medical students read and reply to threads in preallo and may follow and repond to this one if desired.

 

[diosa428]

Just wanted to note that as I understand it, Duke Med students are free to take the extra year to finish up the MPH at UNC if they pick a two year track. One of my friends did and said the cost was minimal. I'm sure MrBurns or diosa know better than I do, though.

This is correct, it's just a matter of personal preference as to whether or not you want to extend your third year to be 2 years long. Students have also taken multiple "third years" in the past and done extended research projects or two totally different research projects.

 

[TommyGunn04]

Also, unless the policy has changed in the last couple of years, at Duke Med you never pay more than 4 years of tuition, no matter how many years you take to graduate. So if you do a second "research year" or take an extra year to do a 2-year dual degree, you won't have to pay an extra year of Duke Med tuition at least. It's a pretty good deal.