Duke vs UCSF vs Columbia

[9blade]

Hey yall, I took some time off the site for a bit but I'm back to help any premeds who need help. But I need you guys to help me with a decision on school. I'm extremely lucky to be in this position and very thankful for all the people, including here, who helped me get where I am today. Things to consider: a)I currently am interested in skull base tumors neurosurgery...other specialties I've thought about are Adult Heme/Onc, Derm Onc, Rad Onc, and ENT with a fellowship in, you guessed it, Head and Neck cancers. b) I am not interested in working in a university setting. Ideally, work private practice but do research one or 2 days per week for some biotech/pharma/industry. c) I would prefer to do residency and work anywhere in the south(except Florida), midwest, or west coast(California, Nevada, Arizona). d) I will not be taking any debt with these schools because I have some outside funding I received that would supplement any non loan financial aid received to the cost of attendance.

Duke
Coming into the cycle, Duke was my #1 choice because it's a place I had always dreamed attending and I love the area.

Pros:
- 1 year preclinical
- 1 full year of research
- Durham is great and I like the hiking/running trails
- Students seem really happy to be here
- Cost of living. I could get an apartment by myself and not feel broke

Cons:
- City is not as diverse as I'm used to
- I didn't get a vibe that the students care that much about social issues

UCSF
This is the one that pleasantly surprised me the most.

Pros:
- The students seem really happy to be here
- The students care a lot about social issues
- I love the food scene in SF
- No matter what specialty I may end up choosing, UCSF programs seem to be ranked highly on Doximity
- Proximity to the tech world. I've thought about novel ways to incorporate tech and medicine to change lives

Cons:
- Cost of living is extremely high. I'm a bit older than most incoming students, and I am done with the roommate life. I want an apartment to myself. From what I've seen, that would run me at least $1700/month

Columbia
I live in NYC and am very familiar with this school

Pros:
- I have friends at the school and am pretty familiar with the school. Used to study in the Vagelos building and I loved it.
- I have research already set up with some faculty in the Neurosurgery department
- Very diverse area

Cons:
- I've lived here and kinda want a change
- weather. I'm not a winter fan and this is where I've had the worst case of seasonal depression.
- expensive cost of living
- students seem really stressed.

Harvard
Honestly, not really a fan, but my parents and advisors are big fans and think I should choose here

Pros:
- It's Harvard and it has regular people prestige (my dad immigrated to this country and Harvard was the only American University he had heard of)
- Students seem really happy here
- Students seem to care about social issues
- 1 year preclinical

Cons:
- I hate Boston with a passion (even their sports teams annoy me)
- Expensive cost of living
- weather


Thank you guys in advance for any help/comments you may provide

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[MongutheDoggy]

Harvard bc it's Harvard, but you can't go wrong with either of these 4

 

[deleted1065184]

I'd say Duke. Durham isn't very diverse, but bordering Raleigh certainly is. You won't have trouble matching in the South from any of these schools, but Duke will likely give you an edge for their residency programs. The cost of living difference is also huge.

UCSF seems like the school you like next after Duke, but it's every bit as expensive as NYC (likely more). I'm also non-trad and can't do the roommate thing, so Duke seems like a clear winner to me. Last question though is what are your financial aid packages for each school?

 

[deleted1065184]

Harvard bc it's Harvard, but you can't go wrong with either of these 4

You're just gonna ignore the "I hate Boston with a passion" and "honestly, not really a fan"?!? lmfao

 

[treesarefrends]

From the way you wrote it, it sounds like Duke is the best one. I don't think you could go wrong with any of these and none of these would close any doors for you in terms of specialty, matching and for academia if you become more interested in it!

 

[Davidfromcali]

The COL in SF is crazy and renting a 1 bedroom apartment for 4 years is gonna ramp up your COL. Most students have housemates and that still puts the sticker price at 1200-1800 a month depending on the setup.

Something to defiantly consider if you really value having your own place because its gonna cost you.

 

[Banco]

From the sounds of it you like Duke and UCSF the most. These are all top tier programs. Go where you liked it most.

 

[deleted1020966]

Wow... I'm in a similar situation except replace Duke with UMich and Columbia with Cornell. I would probably wait for financial aid packages and update your post then. To me, it sounds like you're learning between Duke and UCSF, which may ultimately come down to the cost of living expenses. There was an article mentioning increased aid for students at UCSF posted last October here. With that being said, I'm not sure how that will change financial aid packages this year.

You also mentioned social issues as important in your pros/cons list. Are you interested in community service work with any specific populations or is this more of a general mission fit? No matter what decision you make, I'm sure you can't go wrong!

 

[9blade]

I'd say Duke. Durham isn't very diverse, but bordering Raleigh certainly is. You won't have trouble matching in the South from any of these schools, but Duke will likely give you an edge for their residency programs. The cost of living difference is also huge.

UCSF seems like the school you like next after Duke, but it's every bit as expensive as NYC (likely more). I'm also non-trad and can't do the roommate thing, so Duke seems like a clear winner to me. Last question though is what are your financial aid packages for each school?

Duke, UCSF, and Columbia haven't really said anything about financial aid. However, if you have an offer somewhere, I was told that Duke and Columbia can match. Even though some people say Harvard doesn't match COA, I met a first year who told me that Harvard matched COA for her. In the long run, I'm not too worried about what financial aid I will get because my church(outside fund) guaranteed to pay for everything that I'd ask loans for. So I'm blessed and happy for that.

Yes, you're right about Raleigh. I forgot that it's not too far. It is definitely a diverse city. Thank you for mentioning that.

The COL in SF is crazy and renting a 1 bedroom apartment for 4 years is gonna ramp up your COL. Most students have housemates and that still puts the sticker price at 1200-1800 a month depending on the setup.

Something to defiantly consider if you really value having your own place because its gonna cost you.

Wow... I'm in a similar situation except replace Duke with UMich and Columbia with Cornell. I would probably wait for financial aid packages and update your post then. To me, it sounds like you're learning between Duke and UCSF, which may ultimately come down to the cost of living expenses. There was an article mentioning increased aid for students at UCSF posted last October here. With that being said, I'm not sure how that will change financial aid packages this year.

You also mentioned social issues as important in your pros/cons list. Are you interested in community service work with any specific populations or is this more of a general mission fit? No matter what decision you make, I'm sure you can't go wrong!

Duke seems to be what I'm leaning towards, because I really like the cheaper cost of living. Space is a big issue for me. I lived in Dallas before moving to NYC, and I really didn't like the feel of staying in a tiny/cramped up apartment with roommates. This is why I'm leaning towards Duke. However the thought of a true p/f at UCSF with no AOA (I'm not sure if Duke got rid of AOA, I had heard they were in the process of getting rid of it), and the activism of the med students at UCSF(I plan on being involved in community service) are intriguing to me and why I still have UCSF in there. But you're right. I can't go wrong with any of these schools. I did not expect this at the beginning of the app cycle, so I'm definitely lucky and happy. Thank you all for your comments. Much appreciated

 

[7summers]

Follow your dream and go Duke! It's also the only school on your list without realistic cons. I think Duke actually strives to increase diversity within their class. They might not be as highly regarded as UCSF with their commitment to the underserved population, but I think this is a problem all prestigious private schools deal with (maybe with the exception of U Chicago).

I'd argue UCSF with your location preferences. Post-medschool UCSF will set you up the best for staying on the West Coast! The students have that joke UCSF= U Can Stay Forever, which I think also speaks to the sense of community that the school and hospital system upholds!

If you haven't visited in a while I would suggest a trip to both Durham and SF before you make your final choices!

Lastly Congratulations I've also been accepted to Duke and SF but i'm a cali native so I think I'm going SF if finances permit! Maybe well be classmates

**Don't go Harvard just because it's Harvard.

 

[deleted1065184]

Duke, UCSF, and Columbia haven't really said anything about financial aid. However, if you have an offer somewhere, I was told that Duke and Columbia can match. Even though some people say Harvard doesn't match COA, I met a first year who told me that Harvard matched COA for her. In the long run, I'm not too worried about what financial aid I will get because my church(outside fund) guaranteed to pay for everything that I'd ask loans for. So I'm blessed and happy for that.

Yes, you're right about Raleigh. I forgot that it's not too far. It is definitely a diverse city. Thank you for mentioning that.



Duke seems to be what I'm leaning towards, because I really like the cheaper cost of living. Space is a big issue for me. I lived in Dallas before moving to NYC, and I really didn't like the feel of staying in a tiny/cramped up apartment with roommates. This is why I'm leaning towards Duke. However the thought of a true p/f at UCSF with no AOA (I'm not sure if Duke got rid of AOA, I had heard they were in the process of getting rid of it), and the activism of the med students at UCSF(I plan on being involved in community service) are intriguing to me and why I still have UCSF in there. But you're right. I can't go wrong with any of these schools. I did not expect this at the beginning of the app cycle, so I'm definitely lucky and happy. Thank you all for your comments. Much appreciated

Gotcha, well it sounds like you don't want to be at Harvard or in the Boston area (I don't care for the area either, so I get it lol) so I'd cross them out. If finances aren't an issue, then I'd say it definitely sounds like it's between UCSF and Duke.

Looking back, I think I underestimated the diversity of Durham (just googled the population demographics). It and Raleigh are both every bit as diverse as SF, it seems. Since you're hoping to match in the South, Duke still seems like the better choice to me. But it sounds like you'd be super happy at either Duke or UCSF.

 

[MongutheDoggy]

You're just gonna ignore the "I hate Boston with a passion" and "honestly, not really a fan"?!? lmfao

it's Harvard doe

 

[deleted1065184]

it's Harvard doe

Lol Harvard is a great school but I can't imagine choosing it over other schools that will provide equally good medical training and a much more enjoyable surrounding environment....just to have the Harvard name. But if the name trumps all in your eyes, more power to ya and I hope you get into Harvard!

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Sounds like you thought this through a lot. You really can't go wrong with any of these. Ignore what advisors and SDN'ers say and go with your gut. I'm sure you already know the prestige ranking (Harvard >= UCSF > Columbia >= Duke), but they're all in the same ball park and in the medical community, people will be equally impressed. It's better to be happy than unhappy.

 

[jamminsalmon96]

First of all, congratulations! No one can begin to imagine the dedication you've put into your work to get to this point where you are able to make such a decision. From the sound of it, you already know exactly what your niche will be. All are great schools, I concur that I would not attend Harvard for the sake of being Harvard, I would look for more value in the opportunity to see where it can lead you along your desired career path. UCSF sounds like the most amazing option and would hands down be my choice, especially considering where you are ultimately trying to match. I think students frequently undervalue the importance the student life, because in the end this is not like undergraduate. You are a professional individual in a professional environment. Boston and SF are going to give you the most out of the experience and the student engagement at UCSF is very attractive. Durham is a much smaller and less diverse community so you really have to want to go there to make that choice. From your statement, I think UCSF would be extremely lucky to have a student like you in their incoming class. Best of luck on your journey

 

[9blade]

First of all, congratulations! No one can begin to imagine the dedication you've put into your work to get to this point where you are able to make such a decision. From the sound of it, you already know exactly what your niche will be. All are great schools, I concur that I would not attend Harvard for the sake of being Harvard, I would look for more value in the opportunity to see where it can lead you along your desired career path. UCSF sounds like the most amazing option and would hands down be my choice, especially considering where you are ultimately trying to match. I think students frequently undervalue the importance the student life, because in the end this is not like undergraduate. You are a professional individual in a professional environment. Boston and SF are going to give you the most out of the experience and the student engagement at UCSF is very attractive. Durham is a much smaller and less diverse community so you really have to want to go there to make that choice. From your statement, I think UCSF would be extremely lucky to have a student like you in their incoming class. Best of luck on your journey

oh wow, thank you for the kind words. I really appreciate it. My gut says I'd be happier at UCSF, but my brain says Duke is the logical choice for everything that I'm looking for. Also since living with no roommate is a big deal to me, I'm leaning towards Duke. Also, I think I'd be happy at Duke as well. It was my #1 choice going into the cycle. I had no interest in UCSF and only applied because my mentor went there and he told me to apply, but it pleasantly surprised me. The students I talked to through SNMA, Dansa Cervicalis, and the UCSF homeless clinic, made me feel like I want to be a part of the UCSF community. They really sold me on the school. Ideally, I'd have UCSF in a city with Durham cost of living, but that's not how the world works sometimes. lol. At the end of the day, I realize that I'd still be happy at Duke and on top of that, I'd have a big apartment to myself without feeling like I'm broke. If I hadn't been accepted to UCSF, Duke would be my choice without thinking about it. That's why unless something miraculously happens and rent in SF drops to $1400 for a 1br apartment, I will choose Duke. I do thank everyone for giving me their opinions. It was appreciated.

 

[Orims]

oh wow, thank you for the kind words. I really appreciate it. My gut says I'd be happier at UCSF, but my brain says Duke is the logical choice for everything that I'm looking for. Also since living with no roommate is a big deal to me, I'm leaning towards Duke. Also, I think I'd be happy at Duke as well. It was my #1 choice going into the cycle. I had no interest in UCSF and only applied because my mentor went there and he told me to apply, but it pleasantly surprised me. The students I talked to through SNMA, Dansa Cervicalis, and the UCSF homeless clinic, made me feel like I want to be a part of the UCSF community. They really sold me on the school. Ideally, I'd have UCSF in a city with Durham cost of living, but that's not how the world works sometimes. lol. At the end of the day, I realize that I'd still be happy at Duke and on top of that, I'd have a big apartment to myself without feeling like I'm broke. If I hadn't been accepted to UCSF, Duke would be my choice without thinking about it. That's why unless something miraculously happens and rent in SF drops to $1400 for a 1br apartment, I will choose Duke. I do thank everyone for giving me their opinions. It was appreciated.

As someone living in the Bay Area for the last 7 years I can 100% assure you that rent will not go down any lower, at least for the next 4 years. COVID reduced rent rates in SF, however I have already seen many places start to go back to normal. The rent you pay for a 1 bedroom apartment in SF will get you an incredibly nice condo/house in Durham!

 

[oatmilklatte]

Lifetime Bay Area resident popping in to add another pro-Duke voice! COL in SF is honestly obscene. $1400+ is about how much my friends in the city pay for a small bedroom in a shared apartment. All these schools are basically indistinguishable in terms of prestige imo and while UCSF may have more of a social justice focus, I'm confident you'll be able to find your niche in this area with great mentors, opportunities, and equally inspired individuals at any of these places. Your dollar will go much farther in Durham than in SF, and it sounds like that's something that's very important to you (and very understandably so).

 

[longhaul3]

If you want to go into neurosurgery, go to Harvard or Columbia.

BTW it's not very realistic right now to be a skull base surgeon outside of a university setting.

 

[9blade]

If you want to go into neurosurgery, go to Harvard or Columbia.

BTW it's not very realistic right now to be a skull base surgeon outside of a university setting.

I agree with the bolded. I was just saying in general what my preference would be. Why not UCSF? aren't they a big deal in NS? is the gap in NS between Duke and the other schools really that wide? I figured with a year of research at Duke, I'd have time to publish a crap ton.

 

[longhaul3]

I agree with the bolded. I was just saying in general what my preference would be. Why not UCSF? aren't they a big deal in NS? is the gap in NS between Duke and the other schools really that wide? I figured with a year of research at Duke, I'd have time to publish a crap ton.

None of them will hold you back at all. Harvard and Columbia (Columbia in particular) are part of the old guard and have all of the connections that go with it. You will have plenty of opportunity to publish at any of these schools.

UCSF is a big name these days. My sense is that the department is kind of an island unto itself. Their program has a reputation for malignancy and their med students in my (imperfect) recollection have not matched as well lately. Plus Berger, Lawton, and McDermott are all gone.

I don't want to discourage you from going to Duke if you want to go there. I would just say purely from a neurosurgery applicant standpoint that Harvard and Columbia are probably a step above the others.

 

[9blade]

None of them will hold you back at all. Harvard and Columbia (Columbia in particular) are part of the old guard and have all of the connections that go with it. You will have plenty of opportunity to publish at any of these schools.

UCSF is a big name these days. My sense is that the department is kind of an island unto itself. Their program has a reputation for malignancy and their med students in my (imperfect) recollection have not matched as well lately. Plus Berger, Lawton, and McDermott are all gone.

I don't want to discourage you from going to Duke if you want to go there. I would just say purely from a neurosurgery applicant standpoint that Harvard and Columbia are probably a step above the others.

Thank you for the information. I appreciate it and will definitely take that into consideration. I had heard about the malignancy of UCSF NS residency, but I was still under the impression that the faculty are big names in the field who would help students match. Thank you for that information.

 

[longhaul3]

Thank you for the information. I appreciate it and will definitely take that into consideration. I had heard about the malignancy of UCSF NS residency, but I was still under the impression that the faculty are big names in the field who would help students match. Thank you for that information.

They definitely still have plenty of big names in the field, and I have no idea what kind of support they provide to students, but as an outside observer in our small specialty that has just been what I remember from the recent past.