PhD/PsyD Easiest countries to transfer to with psych licensure?

[PsychNLife]

My husband and I are considering not living in the US anymore due to the chaos of the last few years. However, I’m in graduate school and would like to finish before we go (if possible), and get my license.

Are there many other countries that accept psych degrees and psych licensure easily? Has anybody tried this?

Has anybody done this mid-grad school? Or is it best to wait it out?

I know the UK and many other regions things set up very differently in terms of licensure.

I figure the easiest would be Canada, but I wanted to look into my options especially in Europe.

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[WisNeuro]

Canada is the closest, with the APA/CPA reciprocity stuff. Also easier to get citizenship if you are a doctoral provider and can secure a job in a high need area. In Europe, most psych practitioners are masters level. In many places the doctoral level stuff is mostly for researchers. If you're serious about Europe, I'd narrow it down to the places you could actually emigrate to and check their specific requirements.

 

[MiniLop]

New Zealand has a perpetual shortage of psychologists (it's on their long-term skill shortage list). My understanding is that a doctoral degree in clinical psych from the US would be considered valid in NZ. There would be quite a pay cut compared to the US, though, plus a small island may not be the best place to live in the coming decades, but it's such a lovely country!

 

[PsyDr]

A. Easiest? Central African Republic.

1) There’s a need: 4.6 million people; one psychologist.
2) So they probably aren’t too strict about license requirements.
3) Ranked as one of the most dangerous countries in the world. So probably lots of work to be had.
4) If you’re anywhere near the average life expectancy, you won’t have to save for retirement or old age.

B. Syria also has some stuff with WHO.

C. If you’re looking for an approximation of western life and fluently speak another language: New Zealand (always jobs online hit expensive), Canada, Argentina (they LOVE psychoanalysis), Brazil. Most Western European countries have extreme restrictions for visas.

 

[Sanman]

A. Easiest? Central African Republic.

1) There’s a need: 4.6 million people; one psychologist.
2) So they probably aren’t too strict about license requirements.
3) Ranked as one of the most dangerous countries in the world. So probably lots of work to be had.
4) If you’re anywhere near the average life expectancy, you won’t have to save for retirement or old age.

B. Syria also has some stuff with WHO.

C. If you’re looking for an approximation of western life and fluently speak another language: New Zealand (always jobs online hit expensive), Canada, Argentina (they LOVE psychoanalysis), Brazil. Most Western European countries have extreme restrictions for visas.

If World Bank statistics are to be believed, the murder rate in Central African Republic is still below the worst 10 cities in the U.S., so maybe just move to Baltimore or St Louis if you don't want to learn another language but want to live dangerously.

 

[bluecolourskies]

Being a psychologist seems highly unregulated in Russia, people call themselves “psychologists” or “therapists” with any qualifications. Gestalt and psychoanalysis is very popular there. Also, those in the Slavic community sometimes prefer doing telehealth with a therapist from Russia+other former Soviet Union countries because they will do it for $25-30 per session (from the rates I’ve seen).

 

[foreverbull]

I think this is just good info to know in general, for folks who enter grad school thinking they want to travel out of the country after getting their doctorate or licensure. People ask this from time to time, and sometimes people want to go to Western Europe, which is a much bigger cultural shift than Canada. UK has its own rules and system around therapy, as mentioned, so it’s not a seamless transition by any means for any who want to go that route.

Stand up or nothing changes. Take some responsibility instead of cutting and running. Harden up and do some work.

I mean sure, we can judge people without knowing what they’ve been through and how much they may have already “stood up,” but that’s a bit reductionistic to assume and also a bit much to use shaming.

 

[WisNeuro]

I would also caution people against thinking the grass is always greener. Unfortunately, nationalistic and white nationalistic tendencies are also seeing a surge in Western European countries. Just look at La Pen in France, a very extreme right wing authoritarian figure, who got a 42% vote share in recent elections, a nearly 10 point jump from the first time she ran. So, not only are you facing a huge cultural and possible language barrier with this potential move, you may be moving into a very similar, if not worse, emergent political environment.

 

[albatross_at_crossroads]

My husband and I are considering not living in the US anymore due to the chaos of the last few years. However, I’m in graduate school and would like to finish before we go (if possible), and get my license.

Are there many other countries that accept psych degrees and psych licensure easily? Has anybody tried this?

Has anybody done this mid-grad school? Or is it best to wait it out?

Many people have tried, with various degrees of success. What I can say from my experience (as someone who worked in various psych roles/environments in US, Europe and now Canada) is that it's best that you at least finish your degree. Leaving mid-grad school might put you in no man's land, in many cases forcing you to restart training/ education in that country. Unless you want to do that, of course.

I know the UK and many other regions things set up very differently in terms of licensure.

I figure the easiest would be Canada, but I wanted to look into my options especially in Europe.

The "easiest" (and plenty of people pointed out this term is relative) would indeed be Canada. For Europe, you need to make a short list of countries, since licensure requirements vary wildly from one to another. UK also has specific requirements but I have seen anecdotes online of people moving there successfully - usually the transition from UK to US is seen as more difficult.

My opinion - finish your degree, and keep a working list of countries where you want to go. Contact their licensing bodies and ask about what you would need to transition there - in many cases, you would need letters of reference, confirmation of clinical hours from the DCT, and a bunch of other things that you should gather before making the move (don't underestimate this step, in many cases it is quite difficult to obtain these things after you leave). This would also give you some time to get a better understanding of the cultural and social aspects of your target countries and give you some time to ponder whether they are a good match for you and your family.

With some effort, it should be possible to find a suitable place to move if you really want to. However, please keep in mind that even if you are really well prepared for the move, it is never easy and adaptation takes time. In many ways you escape one set of problems just to be faced with a brand new one There are also many upsides, of course. Best of luck!

 

[Ollie123]

Genuinely thinking about this for the first time now. Not in a "leaving tomorrow" kind of way, but my wife and I do feel like we need a clearer get-out-of-dodge plan in place than I ever would have imagined. She's lived through a collapse once and has little desire to do so again. I don't truly believe we're headed there, but it certainly crossed my mind for the first time recently.

Canada and New Zealand/Australia topping our list. Wife hates cold so isn't thrilled about the Canada option, though I grew up near the border and love the idea We can very easily move to Eastern Europe, but that isn't exactly the place to go for stability. Licensure wasn't exactly topping the list of priorities, but seems at least theoretically plausible in all those locations.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Almost without exception, the advice you will receive is to complete your training first, get licensed, and THEN relocate. Many countries have loose rules around training and standards, with the USA and Canada having some of the strictest anywhere. Australia is pretty strict too. I don't know about New Zealand, but I suspect they would be similar. UK the Ph.D / equivalent is a research degree. Often people will want to train internationally and come back to the USA, which adds a plethora of hurdles I wouldn't want to navigate; it's just not a feasible approach. I'm not sure how national healthcare impacts private practice and salaries, but that is also a consideration.

I briefly considered relocation (I had some recruiting calls from Canada), but I was already a handful of years into licensure and I was tired of moving and navigating university politics. There was also this rule in Canada (& a lot of countries, US included) where int'l applicants may not even be considered for a position, unless they can show they don't have sufficient options from the country. As a neuropsych, they could argue I provided unique services not easily available locally, but it was definitely a consideration that applicants often don't know is out there.

 

[quickpsych]

New Zealand has a perpetual shortage of psychologists (it's on their long-term skill shortage list). My understanding is that a doctoral degree in clinical psych from the US would be considered valid in NZ. There would be quite a pay cut compared to the US, though, plus a small island may not be the best place to live in the coming decades, but it's such a lovely country!

Heard the same. They actually have a website set up about this. Apparently you need a job lined up to move there (or at least money in the bank , a place to live, and a clear path to employment).

Interestingly if you have a partner or spouse coming with you they need at least a Bachelors degree level of education.

Canada also seems to be a solid choice as others have said.

 

[PsyDr]

I’ve put 5 figures into this.

1) The biggest hurdle is the work visa. Without this, nothing else matters. You could show up with bags of cash, an active license, a free house, and it doesn’t matter because you’ll have to leave in 90 days.

2) The second biggest hurdle is language. You have to have fluency AND fluency in technical language. Ive attended some foreign conferences and have no idea what some terms meant. It can be done, but I’m guessing it would take a year. Unless you’re moving to Russia or Iceland. Those languages are impossible.

3) The third biggest is an interaction between licensing and pay (I.e., UK and Ireland pay BS amounts of money, because their psychologists are masters level). It’s not worth my while to get licensed, only to get a $30k lifestyle.

And ask European people about Gypsies, and Canadian people about natives. Racism takes different forms.

 

[theSteppenwolf]

Stand up or nothing changes. Take some responsibility instead of cutting and running. Harden up and do some work.

This seems like a really inappropriate response to the OP. Aside from the fact that it doesn’t actually address the question posed, it suggests that only one course of action is acceptable for a multitude of potential circumstances. Many of us are making decisions based not only on our own needs but those of our families. I am rethinking my list of internship sites right now because I have a child with medical issues and potential gender orientation issues. The current spate of anti-LGBTQIA legislation in conservative states makes this reconsideration necessary. Likewise, I don’t know that I want to train or practice in a state that forces providers to to ignore client needs in order to protect their professional livelihood. I’m in an interracial marriage and even in so called liberal states we run into issues regularly. The current political climate has real and pressing impacts on many of us and to dismiss this as being weak or unwilling to fight is just wrong. Each of us has decisions to make that best suit our circumstance.

 

[Sanman]

I’ve put 5 figures into this.

1) The biggest hurdle is the work visa. Without this, nothing else matters. You could show up with bags of cash, an active license, a free house, and it doesn’t matter because you’ll have to leave in 90 days.

2) The second biggest hurdle is language. You have to have fluency AND fluency in technical language. Ive attended some foreign conferences and have no idea what some terms meant. It can be done, but I’m guessing it would take a year. Unless you’re moving to Russia or Iceland. Those languages are impossible.

3) The third biggest is an interaction between licensing and pay (I.e., UK and Ireland pay BS amounts of money, because their psychologists are masters level). It’s not worth my while to get licensed, only to get a $30k lifestyle.

And ask European people about Gypsies, and Canadian people about natives. Racism takes different forms.

I have also looked into this thoroughly and spent significant sums figuring it out. I have a back up plan in place, though it was not meant for a collapse and the truth is that one is unlikely without significant worldwide repercussions. However, I was thinking more along the lines of geoarbitrage and early retirement.

1. If you are a U.S. citizen, you will still need to pay/file taxes. Relinquishing citizenship is very difficult.
2. Obama era laws have made holding international bank accounts a lot more difficult.
3. There are countries where you can purchase citizenship, but is will cost $500k to $1million USD minimum (and you still risk double taxation)
4. As PsyDr mentioned, pay rate may decrease significantly.
5. It takes time and significant money to maintain a foreign residency status even if you are not allowed to work there. It is often is not worth the headache.

 

[WisNeuro]

I’m not the enemy. You will never hear conservative saying “I just want to run away from America“ when things don’t go their way. The conservative movement has been really good at playing a gritty long chess game and it is working. There is a saying “conservatives are stupid and liberals are losers.“ This is one reason why the left gets out of politics at every freaking chance. You’re talking about changing states, which is completely different than running away from America. By the way, half of the things you are doom scrolling about will not happen. And I don’t think it’s fair to say that all legislation is anti-lgb. It sure as hell anti-trans is it though?).

No, because a majority of them will simply construct an delusional reality to compensate. Say, like believing that Trump won the 2020 election


Also, If Thomas not calling for a reconsideration of Obergefell isn't anti-LBGT, I'm not sure what would be.

 

[WisNeuro]

No other justice signed his concurrence.

Considering how they just shat all over the concept of stare decisis, they didn't have to.

 

[WisNeuro]

They also pooped over stare decisis in Brown vs Board of Education… it’s not always a bad thing.

Btw- the great RBG opined that Roe was too broad and felt that activism of the court fueled the issue more from a political perspective.

Overturning precedent to give rights a little apples and oranges to the taking away of rights.

 

[WisNeuro]

OMG - this why discoursing with you can be so frustrating. You and I agree on the principles. I’m just taking a slightly different position. Irregardless - the cut an run thing is chicken **** and as someone with conservative proclivities, when we hear that we roll our eyes. But basically, as the Great philosopher Ronald Coleman opines “Everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but nobody wants to lift no heavy-ass weight.”

Btw - if reports are true, Thomas is partly doing stuff in spite because liberals are pretty obnoxious in messaging. If liberals wanted things better - they would work on their messaging.

I'm not sure I agree on the principle here. When someone's way of life, or the way of life of that of their family is at stake, I wouldn't call it chicken**** to want to be somewhere where the act of them simply being is not illegal. If some want to stay and fight, I applaud them. If someone would rather live a more comfortable life where they are welcomed, I applaud that person as well.

As for Thomas, a man elected to the highest court in the land, it's ok because he's "just trolling?"

 

[WisNeuro]

I’m sorry - where did I say it was okay?

If you weren't condoning it or explaining it away in some way, I'm not sure how the comment about Thomas was relevant otherwise.

 

[WisNeuro]

So where did I say it was okay or condone it? (Read the whole thing again). I’m saying liberals need to work (be more diplomatic) on their messaging because they make people spiteful.

And, in saying so, it carries an implication that it's ok for a member of the SCOTUS to do so simply because he doesn't like the messaging of a political group, when he is supposed to be a non-partisan actor.

 

[WisNeuro]

You’re being silly, wiz and putting words in my mouth. I’m done with this convo. Personally, I don’t think this is in good faith. Adults don’t put words in peoples mouths.

"’I'm saying liberals need to work (be more diplomatic) on their messaging because they make people spiteful."

You are literally saying that Thomas did this because of liberals messaging' And, there is simply no way to take that as anything else but an implication that it explains Thomas' actions, which is doesn't. Adults own up to what they say and do. Feel free to take that in whatever faith you choose to interpret.

 

[WisNeuro]

You’re wrong.

You're welcome.

 

[WisNeuro]

do you feel good now?

Now? Always

 

[foreverbull]

"’I'm saying liberals need to work (be more diplomatic) on their messaging because they make people spiteful."

You are literally saying that Thomas did this because of liberals messaging' And, there is simply no way to take that as anything else but an implication that it explains Thomas' actions, which is doesn't. Adults own up to what they say and do. Feel free to take that in whatever faith you choose to interpret.

Has hell frozen over? WisNeuro and I are actually in agreement on this thread!

 

[foreverbull]

I’m not the enemy. But, you will seldom hear conservative saying “I just want to run away from America“ when things don’t go their way. The conservative movement has been really good at playing a gritty long chess game and it is working. There is a saying “conservatives are stupid and liberals are losers.“ This is one reason why the left gets out politicked at every freaking chance. You’re talking about changing states, which is completely different than running away from America as a whole - most other euro countries have more restrictive abortion access in than us. By the way, most of the things you are doom scrolling about will not happen. Stop catastrophizing - it’s time to do work.

As for the appropriateness of my response, I’m just a guy on the Internet. But I roll my eyes when my liberal colleagues who are over educated say they’re gonna leave America. If you want to go run, fine. America will go on without you.

As for the current political climate, liberals are just as much to blame as conservatives. Both sides are really good at using stuff like this to drive polarization. Instead of going into a silo, maybe you should look up the literature on contact and what that does for bias, racism, and prejudicial beliefs.

If this were “doom scrolling,” multiple states wouldn’t have immediately enacted abortion bans after the decision because they had trigger laws just waiting for this ruling to go into effect.

There are also trigger laws in states over LGBT rights as well. They’re just waiting for a reversal to ban same sex marriage, etc.

Also, many said Roe would never fall because it was such an important precedent. And here we are. In 2016 everyone said “Trump is a clown and won’t get into office.” Yet he did, and he stacked the nation’s courts with over 200 extremely conservative judges that will have serious ramifications for decades to come.

So what you see as doomscrolling, others see as the writing on the wall for future possibilities.

 

[WisNeuro]

Has hell frozen over? WisNeuro and I are actually in agreement on this thread!

I'd be willing to bet we agree on quite a bit, actually

 

[BuckeyeLove]

I remember the New Zealand thing coming up in discussions even when i was in grad school years and years ago.

 

[Shiori]

There is something very freeing about having a plan b even if you have no desire to leave. There aren't many experiences more overwhelming than feeling trapped, at least for me. I have found this thread helpful.

 

[taylortaylor164]

To the OP, I know that there are multiple therapists out there who relocated to a different country but still see American clients over telehealth living in the states they are licensed in. This still makes it likely you will be taxed from both countries, and you will need to figure out the regulations of the country you have relocated to. There are some facebook groups regarding this topic.

 

[SerenityNow555]

To the OP, I know that there are multiple therapists out there who relocated to a different country but still see American clients over telehealth living in the states they are licensed in. This still makes it likely you will be taxed from both countries, and you will need to figure out the regulations of the country you have relocated to. There are some facebook groups regarding this topic.

Could you point me to some of these FB groups? This is exactly the kind of info I need. Thank you!

 

[taylortaylor164]

Could you point me to some of these FB groups? This is exactly the kind of info I need. Thank you!

Sure!

Location Independent Therapists

Online therapists living that RV life

The Traveling Therapist

There are also some forum posts every so often in other groups like therapists supporting therapists.

 

[SerenityNow555]

Sure!

Location Independent Therapists

Online therapists living that RV life

The Traveling Therapist

There are also some forum posts every so often in other groups like therapists supporting therapists.

Thank you so much!

 

[futureapppsy2]

So, I've posted this before, but keep in mind that some countries have incredibly strict health requirements for visas. Look carefully at the health requirements for Australia and New Zealand, specifically, because their guidelines are incredibly strict and include even minor chronic illnesses. They will also kick you out of the country unceremoniously if you or your dependent (including spouse, if they don't have their own visa) develop a chronic health condition while you are there on a visa. There's been well-documented cases of immigrants who have lived in Australia for years giving birth to child (born in Australia) with a relatively minor congenital issue and being informed that they all have to leave the country.

Canada has recently eased their medical restrictions a bit, but they are still there, so read up on them.

The best country to try to move to is a country where you are already eligible for citizenship--many Americans are eligible for citizenship by descent but don't realize it. Italy and Germany have perhaps the most liberal citizenship by descent laws, and Germany has some new pathways related to gender discrimination that are only available through August 2031. Ireland is fairly straightforward if your parent or grandparent was born on the island, but locks down pretty quickly after that.

Keep in mind that visas and citizenship both take a lot of time, and you'll be very, very lucky if it only takes 1-2 years to get citizenship or a visa from the time of submitting your documents (which also takes time). Some visas can move quickly depending on the country and type, but many a prospective employee has lost out on a job due to visa processing delays.