EAST Asian premeds/doctors around?

[takeurmeds02]

Anyway.. to get back to the topic of the thread. My personal opinion is that it can definitely feel a little unfair when you hear that people want to discount your achievements and your work based on the fact that your culture traditionally emphasizes education, and that there are certain stereotypes that may affect how you are perceived on paper. However, I think that there are probably getting to be more asians (and other diverse people) on admissions committees and such who understand when someone truly special comes along. The burden probably rests on ourselves as applicants to learn how to express ourselves better. I certainly get the feeling that many east asians struggle to write about themselves in a way that stands out!

I honestly believe everyone's achievements are discounted to a certain degree. ORM for reason that you described above, the majority for reasons that you described above, and URM who, "only got in to reach a quota" in some people's eyes. In a super competitive field like this with the type of socioeconomic disparity that exists in this country, that's the nature of the beast. Absolutely not saying it's right though.

However, I think that there are probably getting to be more asians (and other diverse people) on admissions committees and such who understand when someone truly special comes along.

And this is why cultural diversity across the board is so necessary...then you can really start to tease out merit without your race being held against you.

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[magicdock]

Consider this for what its worth: When I didn't get in last cycle, I went all out going from school to school trying to find out what had happened. Sure, I got a few adcoms on the phone telling me how I needed more of this and that... etc. you know, your generic answers to why they rejected you. One school did allow me to come into their office to do a face-to-face with one of their adcoms, during which they actually pulled your file and went over what the committee thought about your application. There were three others with me during my time slot (all non-asian btw) and, because I'm a very curious individual, when the adcom was flipping through their files I saw extensive notes on their application from the committee. When she flipped to mine, the only thing I saw was the "Asian American" label underneath race/ethnicity circled in pencil. Nothing else. I cannot help but think what kinds of assumptions come with applying as an Asian, and how would my cycle been different had I been of another race.

How many interviews did u get and stats?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[oshanimalia]

Consider this for what its worth: When I didn't get in last cycle, I went all out going from school to school trying to find out what had happened. Sure, I got a few adcoms on the phone telling me how I needed more of this and that... etc. you know, your generic answers to why they rejected you. One school did allow me to come into their office to do a face-to-face with one of their adcoms, during which they actually pulled your file and went over what the committee thought about your application. There were three others with me during my time slot (all non-asian btw) and, because I'm a very curious individual, when the adcom was flipping through their files I saw extensive notes on their application from the committee. When she flipped to mine, the only thing I saw was the "Asian American" label underneath race/ethnicity circled in pencil. Nothing else. I cannot help but think what kinds of assumptions come with applying as an Asian, and how would my cycle been different had I been of another race.

Is this for real? If so, then there's absolutely no reason AA should not be discussed when it comes to the Asian American experience in medicine. Otherwise it'd be like women from the 1880s not talking about suffrage when asked to talk about their experiences during that time.You lose out on all the context

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[md-2020]

Consider this for what its worth: When I didn't get in last cycle, I went all out going from school to school trying to find out what had happened. Sure, I got a few adcoms on the phone telling me how I needed more of this and that... etc. you know, your generic answers to why they rejected you. One school did allow me to come into their office to do a face-to-face with one of their adcoms, during which they actually pulled your file and went over what the committee thought about your application. There were three others with me during my time slot (all non-asian btw) and, because I'm a very curious individual, when the adcom was flipping through their files I saw extensive notes on their application from the committee. When she flipped to mine, the only thing I saw was the "Asian American" label underneath race/ethnicity circled in pencil. Nothing else. I cannot help but think what kinds of assumptions come with applying as an Asian, and how would my cycle been different had I been of another race.

As much of a problem as I have with affirmative action and how understand how tough it is for fellow Asians out there, I highly doubt this is the full/true story. Please elaborate as this is simply impossible. This school would be opening themselves up to all sorts of lawsuits if that's how their adcoms operate.

 

[bahdahboom]

What about us Mongolians?

I am not any sort of Asian, but this is the cutest flippin picture I've seen in a while.

So happy I clicked on this thread.

 

[GrapesofRath]

As much of a problem as I have with affirmative action and how understand how tough it is for fellow Asians out there, I highly doubt this is the full/true story. Please elaborate as this is simply impossible. This school would be opening themselves up to all sorts of lawsuits if that's how their adcoms operate.

I believe this story. I also believe there were many other factors that went into him not getting accepted and that this is an oversimplification of things. If schools were more public in disclosing what exactly went into some of the decisions behind admissions there wouldnt be a week that went by without someone trying to file a lawsuit against them. So no, there is no law suit issue that would ever emerge from this or even more egregious things in admission if they were highlighted.

I'll make a few general side notes

1) Ive always felt the ORM stigma in admission was overdone. Much of it is just geography: Asians tend to cluster in the most competitive states and are rarities in the luckiest states. 1/4 of all Asian applicants are from CA: for whites it's 6%. There are actually more blacks than asians at a school like U of Miss. At a school like Marshall it's 6% Asian 4% Black. That's going to affect those "% of Asians vs Whites accepted with X GPA/X MCAT" significantly.

2)In general I often try to stray away from this type of topic both on here and in general because of the lack of nuance of it as well as how cyclical and fruitless it ends up being. Alot of the discussion I find to be somewhat lazy and with flawed generalizations that dont show proper understanding of the issues of race in america, race in medicine and how it relates to Asians specifically. Do these stereotypes(amongst other things) from time to time venture into the process of medical school admission? Without being in admission at multiple schools no way can I give close to a good answer. What Ill say i from the people in admission Ive talked to who I know personally when this has come up there has been a consistent response amongst them of yes they have said occasionally seen instances of things like what the OP is referring to. Those stories we see wont ever 100% go away. The race problem in this country that exists doesnt just exclude Asians. This is particularly true in certain parts of the US. I lived for example in the south for years and this was blatantly obvious in a way now that is kind of hard to imagine now living in the north. And that will continue to be in spite of how many lazy arguments youll hear about that often revolve in some form of another of "Well Asians dont really have it so bad look at how many successful ones there are" or "What's wrong with being stereotyped as smart and hard working".

3) Maybe the best thing to do is simply acknowledge them at face value for what they are and what are certain things that can be done that might trigger others to be quicker to make these kind of lazy generalizations. Beyond that, if these things arent going to go away, it stands to reason that the Asians who recognize these stereotypes and do things to try and show how they are the opposite of such will stand to benefit. Thereve been people involved in undergrad admissions at Ivies whove said over the past 5-10 years even publicly sometimes some form or another A key to being successful is being less "Asian" in your app. While obviously that is taking things to an extreme and not the most correct phrasing by any means, there is a general point that can be taken away from that I think we can all implicitly understand even if we dont openly admit it. If there is in fact sometimes an ORM disadvantage, play against the stereotypes and use them to your advantage to stand out amongst the Asian crowd and do things Asians are perceived as usually not doing. Create your own luck when life gives you a ****tier hand.

 

[oshanimalia]

I believe this story. I also believe there were many other factors that went into him not getting accepted and that this is an oversimplification of things. If schools were more public in disclosing what exactly went into some of the decisions behind admissions there wouldnt be a week that went by without someone trying to file a lawsuit against them. So no, there is no law suit issue that would ever emerge from this or even more egregious things in admission if they were highlighted.

I'll make a few general side notes

1) Ive always felt the ORM stigma in admission was overdone. Much of it is just geography: Asians tend to cluster in the most competitive states and are rarities in the luckiest states. 1/4 of all Asian applicants are from CA: for whites it's 6%. There are actually more blacks than asians at a school like U of Miss. At a school like Marshall it's 6% Asian 4% Black. That's going to affect those "% of Asians vs Whites accepted with X GPA/X MCAT" significantly.

2)In general I often try to stray away from this type of topic both on here and in general because of the lack of nuance of it as well as how cyclical and fruitless it ends up being. Youll even see ADCOMs on here in this topic sometimes make what I find to be lazy and flawed generalizations that dont show proper understanding of the issues of race in america, race in medicine and how it relates to Asians specifically. Do these stereotypes(amongst other things) from time to time venture into the process of medical school admission? Without being in admission at multiple schools no way can I give close to a good answer. What Ill say i from the people in admission Ive talked to who I know personally when this has come up there has been a consistent response amongst them of yes they have said occasionally seen instances of things like what the OP is referring to. And those stories we see wont ever 100% go away. The race problem in this country that exists doesnt just exclude Asians. This is particularly true in certain parts of the US. I lived for example in the south for years and this was blatantly obvious in a way now that is kind of hard to imagine now living in the north. And that will continue to be in spite of how many lazy arguments youll hear about that often revolve in some form of another of "Well Asians dont really have it so bad look at how many successful ones there are" or "What's wrong with being stereotyped as smart and hard working".

3) Maybe the best thing to do is simply acknowledge them at face value for what they are and what are certain things that can be done that might trigger others to be quicker to make these kind of lazy generalizations. Beyond that, if these things arent going to go away, it stands to reason that the Asians who recognize these stereotypes and do things to try and show how they are the opposite of such will stand to benefit. Thereve been people involved in undergrad admissions at Ivies whove said over the past 5-10 years even publicly sometimes some form or another A key to being successful is being less "Asian" in your app. While obviously that is taking things to an extreme and not the most correct phrasing by any means, there is a general point that can be taken away from that. If we are going to believe there can be forms of asian stereotyping in admission occasionally (and again emphasis on if, like I said above I think alot the ORM disadvantage is overblown to a fair extent) then perhaps look at it from the med schools perspective. If a medical school has 100 asians and is looking to offer interviews to 15 of them imagine in this hypothetical situation 75 of them largely spend much of their time for ECs on research or whatever EC that might be more likely to be "stereotyped" or associated with Asians. How will the applicant who doesnt make that a focus of their app and instead focuses their app on things that many Asians dont(or at least are perceived as not focusing their app on) such as say service with the less fortunate you could argue they have a chance of standing out and that such an activity has a way of helping them distinguish themselves in ways other races like whites can't. In other words if this is going to happen(and again the emphasis is on if) create your own luck and know the way the game of admission works and plan accordingly. In general this type of thing is really what life requires when if it deals you an unfortunate circumstance.

Partially agree on number 3, because I think awareness for the sake of dealing with the issue is of utmost importance, especially if it gets obviously worse. However, to go against things that is stereotyped to be Asian just because "a party" deems it stereotypical just runs wrong to me. It's like Asians have to cater to these people to distance themselves from the things they want to do, and that the things they do are just to appease the adcoms, and even more importantly, this will lead to a loss of the sense of self because you are doing things to supposedly counter your own race...which is messed up.

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[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

It's my understanding that diversity essays pertain to diversity of experience, not ethnicity.

One could argue that diversity in ethnicity naturally confers a diverse persective because of upbringing, exposure etc.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

I want to pose a question to you all. Do you think that if interviewers conducted interviews while blind to the applicant's race, that we will really see that much of an increase in % of Asians in medical school?

 

[salemstein]

How many interviews did u get and stats?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1 interview, LizzyM 68-69

 

[oshanimalia]

I want to pose a question to you all. Do you think that if interviewers conducted interviews while blind to the applicant's race, that we will really see that much of an increase in % of Asians in medical school?

Even so, some applicants essays may let slip of their race. That being said, if it was really blind, I am pretty much convinced that there would be an increase. We will never know though

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[Cyberdyne 101]

I want to pose a question to you all. Do you think that if interviewers conducted interviews while blind to the applicant's race, that we will really see that much of an increase in % of Asians in medical school?

I'm sure you recall the threads that touched on how Asians are likely impacted by the coastal-cluster effect. Rather than engaging in flame-baiting hypotheticals, it'd be more useful to discuss where Asians should apply in order to increase their chances.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

I'm sure you recall the threads that touched on how Asians are likely impacted by the coastal-cluster effect. Rather than engaging in flame-baiting hypotheticals, it'd be more useful to discuss where Asians should apply in order to increase their chances.

I have zero intention to flame bait, and I have every reason to believe we as a community has the aptitude to have a mature conversation. I'd hate to see SDN become a safe space where nothing that could gather opposing opinions can be discussed. Have some faith is us, have some faith in yourself.

 

[MemeFactory]

Asians - the only group that also faces racism/discrimination in society yet still needs considerably higher MCAT/GPA and better ECs than other minorities and even whites to be considered equal.

A common response on this forum when bringing up the fact that Asians have to have higher MCAT/GPA for equal chances is that admissions "is not all about MCAT and GPA." But what they really mean is "admissions is not all about MCAT and GPA, unless you are Asian, in which case you need to have an otherwise amazing application in addition to a high MCAT and GPA"

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I have zero intention to flame bait, and I have every reason to believe we as a community has the aptitude to have a mature conversation. I'd hate to see SDN become a safe space where nothing that could gather opposing opinions can be discussed. Have some faith is us, have some faith in yourself.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up the "safe space" thing. I simply want this thread to remain open but I'm afraid it will get locked if it morphs into a discussion about AA. I mean, have you not read Winged Scapula's post?

 

[salemstein]

I'm sure you recall the threads that touched on how Asians are likely impacted by the coastal-cluster effect. Rather than engaging in flame-baiting hypotheticals, it'd be more useful to discuss where Asians should apply in order to increase their chances.

I'll share a couple things I learned from last cycle.
1) Cali + asian = BAD. That's why when I apply this year, I'll be a MI resident (note: getting into med school was not the sole reason I moved here. Just one of many)
2) As ORM, you have to try extra extra hard. If we're average in terms of stats (like I was), there is somehow much less "luck" on our side. This may contribute to a negative spiral b/c when asians all go hard as a group, some adcoms may feel that we're a bunch of box-checkers. We're not. I accept the fact that I have to try harder, but I do not accept the possibility of being punished for trying harder.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

have amazing bedside manner/compassion

ohhhhhhkay there cowboy

 

[ZedsDed]

To help keep this thread from getting locked, I'll direct everyone who wants to discuss AA to another thread where SDN battled it out before the crackdown. We spent nearly 40 pages going back and forth on just about every aspect of URM admissions policies. The old adage "there is nothing new under the Sun" accurately describes URM threads on SDN. So, I doubt any of us are creative enough to come up with anything original tonight. Though I must say, I find it off-putting that conversations on the URM "boost" are generally tolerated in pre-allo as long as they are in favor of it (and I support said policy.) Alas, I'm not in charge.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I have zero intention to flame bait, and I have every reason to believe we as a community has the aptitude to have a mature conversation. I'd hate to see SDN become a safe space where nothing that could gather opposing opinions can be discussed. Have some faith is us, have some faith in yourself.

I didn't think you were intending to flame bait btw. Sorry if I came off that way. I think most people here are capable of having a civil discussion, but it only takes 2-3 posters to get a thread locked.

I'll share a couple things I learned from last cycle.
1) Cali + asian = BAD. That's why when I apply this year, I'll be a MI resident (note: getting into med school was not the sole reason I moved here. Just one of many)
2) As ORM, you have to try extra extra hard. If we're average in terms of stats (like I was), there is somehow much less "luck" on our side. This may contribute to a negative spiral b/c when asians all go hard as a group, some adcoms may feel that we're a bunch of box-checkers. We're not. I accept the fact that I have to try harder, but I do not accept the possibility of being punished for trying harder.

I hope you find success in MI.

 

[oshanimalia]

To help keep this thread from getting locked, I'll direct everyone who wants to discuss AA to this thread. We spent nearly 40 pages going back and forth on all of this. I doubt any of us are creative enough to come up with anything original tonight. Though I must say, I find it off-putting that conversations about the URM "boost" are generally tolerated in pre-allo as long as they are in favor of it (and I support said policy.) Alas, I'm not in charge.

Lol I remember this thread. My stance during that time was more ambiguous, but as more dismissive and gas lighting things were being said, the more I grew skeptical and decided to do my own research. I realized there is hardly anyone that would be my advocate or would vouch for someone like me, so my stance is now a bit more aggressive on this phenomena.

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[oshanimalia]

.double post

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

ohhhhhhkay there cowboy

How's the ortho residency going? Have you replaced any joints yet?

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

I am not Asian, but I lived in South Korea for two years, Nepal for 1.5 months, Thailand for a month and I will leave in India for about year.

I love Kpop, Kdrama and Korean food. Yum, gymdock and dalkalbi

I love Taeyang and G Dragon. I also love Junsu from JYJ

Miss Deagu/teagu and Deajeon/teajeon

 

[oshanimalia]

....

3) Maybe the best thing to do is simply acknowledge them at face value for what they are and what are certain things that can be done that might trigger others to be quicker to make these kind of lazy generalizations. Beyond that, if these things arent going to go away, it stands to reason that the Asians who recognize these stereotypes and do things to try and show how they are the opposite of such will stand to benefit. Thereve been people involved in undergrad admissions at Ivies whove said over the past 5-10 years even publicly sometimes some form or another A key to being successful is being less "Asian" in your app. While obviously that is taking things to an extreme and not the most correct phrasing by any means, there is a general point that can be taken away from that I think we can all implicitly understand even if we dont openly admit it. If there is in fact sometimes an ORM disadvantage, play against the stereotypes and use them to your advantage to stand out amongst the Asian crowd and do things Asians are perceived as usually not doing. Create your own luck when life gives you a ****tier hand.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifesty...-less-asian/Ew7g4JiQMiqYNQlIwqEIuO/story.html
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/08/opinions/yang-being-less-asian/
^It's gotten to the point where they have coaches, FREAKING COACHES, teaching asians students how to be less "asian". Idk about you, but having to 'start over' everytime you meet someone new just to prove to them how SUPER outgoing, creative, and "Unasian (wtf)" you are is tiresome and point blank WRONG. It's not the way to work around this issue. Can you imagine if there are coaches out there to help black/latino people "break their stereotypes" so they can get school acknowledgement? It's a sick concept. This can only be fixed if the mentality of society is changed.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

Anecdotal but I was given advice by a current med student to "tan at the beach as much as possible" before my interviews so I would look less East Asian. Of course that was meant as a half joke, but I coincidentally came back from spending a month in Dominican Republic and had a gnarly tan from swimming and wind surfing a ton at Cabarete. Suffice it to say I had a sneaking suspicion that I was being treated differently during my interviews......

 

[Lucca]

Chinese guy here. Born in Hong Kong but became a US citizen. I came to America to pursue a medical career because I was allured by the prospects in being the deus ex machina in human misery. SARS was one of my early childhood memories where I was convinced my knack for the sciences could do some good.

Ever since I read Tolstoy's 'Ivan Ilych', I was convinced that being a physician confers front row seating to a precocious conception of death and dying. Learning about mortality was intoxicating to me, a Chinese guy in his twenties who was always taught by my culture that death was a taboo subject that we would do best to avert our gaze from.

Sorry for the rant, but I guess what I'm trying to say is, even though I am Chinese, my reasons for practicing medicine have come from mostly Indian and Russian literary figures. It is convenient but decidedly inaccurate to generalize Asian premeds into one big hyperacademic, score chasing super group when some of us do this for wholly other reasons and would appreciate fair consideration without the ORM labeling.

De

https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifesty...-less-asian/Ew7g4JiQMiqYNQlIwqEIuO/story.html
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/08/opinions/yang-being-less-asian/
^It's gotten to the point where they have coaches, FREAKING COACHES, teaching asians students how to be less "asian". Idk about you, but having to 'start over' everytime you meet someone new just to prove to them how SUPER outgoing, creative, and "Unasian (wtf)" you are is tiresome and point blank WRONG. It's not the way to work around this issue. Can you imagine if there are coaches out there to help black/latino people "break their stereotypes" so they can get school acknowledgement? It's a sick concept. This can only be fixed if the mentality of society is changed.

There are coaches for black and Latino people to seem less black and Latino. The process you are describing is called "resume whitening" and it is the most common in the business school here but everyone knows about it or does it to some degree.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ial-discrimination-resume-whitening-callbacks

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/03/white-resume-diversity/475032/

Basically if you change your resume to use your whiter sounding middle name, remove race specific group membership, awards or activities and emphasize "whiter" activities like hiking, lacrosse or being part of a Christian ministry then you are 2x more likely to receive a callback for an interview after submitting your resume lol. Acting "whiter" in the interview can also help. Talking, acting, behaving "whiter" will usually make a candidate seem more "professional" even though what we actually mean by "professional" in this context is that we don't feel the candidate is alienating us and that actually has nothing to do with bonfide professionalism.

 

[oshanimalia]

De


There are coaches for black and Latino people to seem less black and Latino. The process you are describing is called "resume whitening" and it is the most common in the business school here but everyone knows about it or does it to some degree.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ial-discrimination-resume-whitening-callbacks

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/03/white-resume-diversity/475032/

I don't want to live here anymore.

Sent from my SM-G900V using SDN mobile

 

[Lucca]

I don't want to live here anymore.

Sent from my SM-G900V using SDN mobile

I have hope in our generation.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

I have hope in our generation.

I do too. I believe we will see med school admissions and UG admissions reform in our lifetime that will make our current practice seem barbaric. believe it!

 

[MemeFactory]

I want to pose a question to you all. Do you think that if interviewers conducted interviews while blind to the applicant's race, that we will really see that much of an increase in % of Asians in medical school?

Absolutely. It has already been done in the undergraduate admissions model and we can assume that something similar would happen for medical schools. When California banned affirmative action, the %Asian at UC Berkeley and other public california colleges soared. There is no doubt that applying as Asian effectively serves as a handicap.

In my opinion, it shouldn't matter if the Asian percentage at schools increases if the most qualified candidates happen to be Asian. People who are for using race as a factor in admissions will counter by citing a study saying that patients prefer doctors of their own race. However, in my opinion we should not let patients' racist preferences dictate who we admit into medical schools. If a hospital in the middle of Kentucky gave a disadvantage to black physicians who applied for a position by reasoning that their patient population is predominantly white that would be considered ridiculous. Yet people on this forum justify their fears of medical schools being dominated by the most qualified students, who just so may happen to be in large portions Asian, by citing patients' preferences for doctors of their own race.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

Absolutely. It has already been done in the undergraduate admissions model and we can assume that something similar would happen for medical schools. When California banned affirmative action, the %Asian at UC Berkeley and other public california colleges soared. There is no doubt that applying as Asian hinders one's application.

In my opinion, it shouldn't matter if the Asian percentage at schools increases if the most qualified candidates happen to be Asian?

This is getting more to AA territory so I'll be brief. The reason why AA is believed to be needed is because equality does not promise equity. URMs have less opportunity and are burdened from the starting line. If we were to race URMs and ORMs to the same finish line, we'd move URMs closer to the line because they have shoes that are crappier, and clothes that are too small so to speak.

 

[MemeFactory]

This is getting more to AA territory so I'll be brief. The reason why AA is believed to be needed is because equality does not promise equity. URMs have less opportunity and are burdened from the starting line. If we were to race URMs and ORMs to the same finish line, we'd move URMs closer to the line because they have shoes that are crappier, and clothes that are too small so to speak.

I understand where the reasoning for that comes from but it seems that opportunity is far more linked to socioeconomic status than it is to race. A rich African immigrant who is a practicing physician has more opportunity than a poor Vietnamese grocery store owner. Similarly, the African doctor's children are going to have much more opportunity than the grocery store owner's children. Doesn't seem to make much sense to give the poor Asian kids growing up in bad neighborhoods a disadvantage while giving their Black and Hispanic neighbors a boost. I am all for socioeconomic affirmative action, but NOT race based AA.

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

De


There are coaches for black and Latino people to seem less black and Latino. The process you are describing is called "resume whitening" and it is the most common in the business school here but everyone knows about it or does it to some degree.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ial-discrimination-resume-whitening-callbacks

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/03/white-resume-diversity/475032/

Basically if you change your resume to use your whiter sounding middle name, remove race specific group membership, awards or activities and emphasize "whiter" activities like hiking, lacrosse or being part of a Christian ministry then you are 2x more likely to receive a callback for an interview after submitting your resume lol. Acting "whiter" in the interview can also help. Talking, acting, behaving "whiter" will usually make a candidate seem more "professional" even though what we actually mean by "professional" in this context is that we don't feel the candidate is alienating us and that actually has nothing to do with bonfide professionalism.

My name sounds white, and over the phone (and often times in real life) people say I sound like a white girl
And when they actually meet me, they are surprised to find I'm black.

As for the the BSU thing, I always decide to keep it. But I agree with your sentiments.

 

[bandwagoner]

For anyone who is actually trying to get advice from this thread. I will say that I debated for a very long time whether or not to put my race in my AMCAS. I heard all the different reasoning for why its good or bad to put your race, I wondered what it was like for the person who was probably mostly white or black (lets just say 75%), but had an asian last name. And then I had a breakthrough. If a school was probably going to judge me on my race, and hold that against me, I probably wouldn't want to go there to learn anyway. I put my race down. Now I am fortunate to have gotten into medical school and got a few interviews, but it did take me a few years (I had many things I needed to learn about myself anyway).

I think the biggest factor medical schools need to address is socioeconomic difficulties and backgrounds where they come from, and URM/ORM is just barking up the wrong tree. Just because someone is monetarily poor, doesn't mean they come from a background where no one in there family has gone to college. There are probably so many asians, where they or their parents are the first to have gone to college, and just don't understand the system. I personally had that struggle, and I felt that it was quite unfair to be unable to navigate the system, but I suppose that is just the challenge in itself.

tl;dr : Put your goddamn race down and just be proud of who you are. If the medical school doesn't want to accept you for that reason, you probably don't really want to learn in that sort of toxic environment.

 

[ZedsDed]

You guys are dropping from being over represented by 600% to only 500%. It's the end days indeed.

I know you're half-joking, but I have to say I really hate this attitude. Asians shouldn't be mocked or belittled for having a culture that pushes the importance of education. That 500-600% "overrepresentation" didn't fall out of the sky, and it's ridiculous that people would be so dismissive of such admirable success. The thinly-veiled implications of "privilege" are even worse and likely what account for the anti-Asian phenomenon we are seeing at the undergraduate level.

 

[oshanimalia]

Absolutely. It has already been done in the undergraduate admissions model and we can assume that something similar would happen for medical schools. When California banned affirmative action, the %Asian at UC Berkeley and other public california colleges soared. There is no doubt that applying as Asian effectively serves as a handicap.

In my opinion, it shouldn't matter if the Asian percentage at schools increases if the most qualified candidates happen to be Asian. People who are for using race as a factor in admissions will counter by citing a study saying that patients prefer doctors of their own race. However, in my opinion we should not let patients' racist preferences dictate who we admit into medical schools. If a hospital in the middle of Kentucky gave a disadvantage to black physicians who applied for a position by reasoning that their patient population is predominantly white that would be considered ridiculous. Yet people on this forum justify their fears of medical schools being dominated by the most qualified students, who just so may happen to be in large portions Asian, by citing patients' preferences for doctors of their own race.

This is exactly what I meant by goal post changing. The constant tweaking of requirements that can drive one insane. It's the same type of behavior of an employer that is just finding excuses just because he or she doesn't want to promote a person

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I understand where the reasoning for that comes from but it seems that opportunity is far more linked to socioeconomic status than it is to race. A rich African immigrant who is a practicing physician has more opportunity than a poor Vietnamese grocery store owner. Similarly, the African doctor's children are going to have much more opportunity than the grocery store owner's children. Doesn't seem to make much sense to give the poor Asian kids growing up in bad neighborhoods a disadvantage while giving their Black and Hispanic neighbors a boost. I am all for socioeconomic affirmative action, but NOT race based AA.

I know too many affluent minorities that put their urm status and benefit greatly from it. Too real.

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

This is exactly what I meant by goal post changing. The constant tweaking of requirements that can drive one insane. It's the same type of behavior of an employer that is just finding excuses just because he or she doesn't want to promote a person

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I know too many affluent minorities that put their urm status and benefit greatly from it. Too real.

as people said before, it's not about the most disadvantaged student getting in, it's about the patient and lack of representation for them.

 

[oshanimalia]

as people said before, it's not about the most disadvantaged student getting in, it's about the patient and lack of representation for them.

I cannot tell if this is serious or not. Did you not read choppers post earlier on why that's kind of bs?

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[ZedsDed]

Guys... You're heading into dangerous "give the mods an excuse to lock the thread" territory.

 

[oshanimalia]

Guys... You're heading into dangerous "give the mods an excuse to lock the thread" territory.

I'm gonna go drink.

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[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

I know you're half-joking, but I have to say I really hate this attitude. Asians shouldn't be mocked or belittled for having a culture that pushes the importance of education. That 500-600% "overrepresentation" didn't fall out of the sky, and it's ridiculous that people would be so dismissive of such admirable success. The thinly-veiled implications of "privilege" are even worse and likely what account for the anti-Asian phenomenon we are seeing at the undergraduate level.

So do you support giving a boost to URMs in order to ensure they're "fairly" represented?

Because here is the reality of the situation. You can say let's do pure meritocracy and the result will be medical school classes that are almost entirely composed of whites and Asians.

But it sounds to me like you want it both ways. You want URMs to be given a boost so that they achieve at least a floor level of representation based on their share of the population, but you're also against capping Asians to a ceiling dictated by their population.

So who's going to eat the difference? Because if we have AA for URMs, that is going to come out of someone else's seats. You've made it very obvious you don't want that someone else to be Asians. So who does that leave? Oh, gee, let me guess...

 

[ZedsDed]

So do you support giving a boost to URMs in order to ensure they're "fairly" represented?

Because here is the reality of the situation. You can say let's do pure meritocracy and the result will be medical school classes that are almost entirely composed of whites and Asians.

But it sounds to me like you want it both ways. You want URMs to be given a boost so that they achieve at least a floor level of representation based on their share of the population, but you're also against capping Asians to a ceiling dictated by their population.

So who's going to eat the difference? Because if we have AA for URMs, that is going to come out of someone else's seats. You're made it very obvious you don't want that someone else to be Asians. So who does that leave? Oh, gee, let me guess...

I've been over this at least 2-3 times on the thread I posted a link to earlier. WS' warning prohibits me from giving you an answer here

I will say that you have misrepresented why I support the URM "boost."

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

I've been over this at least 2-3 times on the thread I posted a link to earlier. WS' warning prohibits me from giving you an answer here

I will say that you have misrepresented why I support the URM "boost."

Whatever. The reason you support the boost is completely irrelevant to the reality that medical school admissions is a zero sum game, so the boost is going to result in someone else not getting a slice of pie they were expecting. I'm going to end it here for the same reason you mentioned. Moral of story: multiculturalism leads to tension between different groups for their share of the "spoils."

For what it's worth, I visited China, Korea, and Japan and all doctors there were Asian. So there's that. Over and out.

 

[oshanimalia]

Whatever. The reason you support the boost is completely irrelevant to the reality that medical school admissions is a zero sum game, so the boost is going to result in someone else not getting a slice of pie they were expecting. I'm going to end it here for the same reason you mentioned. Moral of story: multiculturalism leads to tension between different groups for their share of the "spoils."

For what it's worth, I visited China, Korea, and Japan and all doctors there were Asian. So there's that. Over and out.

worst analogy ever.

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[MemeFactory]

as people said before, it's not about the most disadvantaged student getting in, it's about the patient and lack of representation for them.

This reasoning just doesn't make sense. If patients' have racist preferences then it should be up to them to get over their racist tendencies. It should not be the responsibility of the medical community to cater to those racist preferences and deny certain people admission into the medical profession for fear of further over-representing a race. As I mentioned earlier, imagine how ridiculous it would be if a hospital in Kentucky denied a black physician a position because their patient population was all white and he is black.

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

Whatever. The reason you support the boost is completely irrelevant to the reality that medical school admissions is a zero sum game, so the boost is going to result in someone else not getting a slice of pie they were expecting. I'm going to end it here for the same reason you mentioned. Moral of story: multiculturalism leads to tension between different groups for their share of the "spoils."

For what it's worth, I visited China, Korea, and Japan and all doctors there were Asian. So there's that. Over and out.

all the doctors in Asia were Asian?? Really??
lmao the demographics of china are : Han Chinese 91.9%, Zhuang, Uygur, Hui, Yi, Tibetan, Miao, Manchu, Mongol, Buyi, Korean, and other nationalities 8.1%
Japan: Japanese 99%; Korean, Chinese, Brazillian, Filipino, other 1% (2004)
Korea:
Korea, North racially homogeneous; small Chinese community, a few ethnic Japanese
Korea, South homogeneous (except for about 20,000 Chinese)

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

This reasoning just doesn't make sense. If patients' have racist preferences then it should be up to them to get over their racist tendencies. It should not be the responsibility of the medical community to cater to those racist preferences and deny certain people admission into the medical profession for fear of further over-representing a race. As I mentioned earlier, imagine how ridiculous it would be if a hospital in Kentucky denied a black physician a position because their patient population was all white and he is black.

I'm not talking about black people, I believe that the mod expressly told us not to.

 

[ZedsDed]

Hmm, I'm tempted to start a "URM boost" thread in the SPF and post the link here to get the thread back on track. The problem is if I mix premeds, the grouchy right-of-center SPF regulars, and affirmative action I might literally start WWIII.

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

Hmm, I'm tempted to start a "URM boost" thread in the SPF and post the link here to get the thread back on track. The problem is if I mix premeds, the grouchy right-of-center SPF regulars, and affirmative action I might literally start WWIII.

The thread will get closed most likely.
Edit: in any case, you won't get URMs to clickbait it. it will be just ORMs grumbling about it, and we have plenty of those threads already

 

[ZedsDed]

The thread will get closed most likely.

This thread or the hypothetical one?