Eating Disorders

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soaringheights

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Hi
What is the essential difference between the DSM IV criteria for Anorexia Nervosa, Binging/Purging type, and Bulimia Nervosa?
Is it that AN/BP type has BMI less than 17.5, whereas no such BMI has been specified for BN? And consequently, AN patients are already below weight, and BN may be of normal wt/someway below normal?

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I don't know if a bmi of 17.5 corresponds to 85% of ideal body weight for their height, but yes this is the essential difference in terms of diagnosis. As to etiology I don't know what the differences are.
 
soaringheights said:
Hi
What is the essential difference between the DSM IV criteria for Anorexia Nervosa, Binging/Purging type, and Bulimia Nervosa?
Is it that AN/BP type has BMI less than 17.5, whereas no such BMI has been specified for BN? And consequently, AN patients are already below weight, and BN may be of normal wt/someway below normal?

I believe you and Psyclops are right that the main difference is body weight and I think an aditional consideration is amenorrhea in anorexia but not in bulimia. It becomes interesting when thinking about the appropriate diagnosis for someone in treatment for anorexia, binging/purging type, who may reach appropriate body weight or whose menses become regular, but who continues to have that intense fear of weight gain and exhibit the same behaviors.
 
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MeghanHF said:
It becomes interesting when thinking about the appropriate diagnosis for someone in treatment for anorexia, binging/purging type, who may reach appropriate body weight or whose menses become regular, but who continues to have that intense fear of weight gain and exhibit the same behaviors.

Does the diagnosis have to continue in such cases based only on the perception of body image? If I remember, there are no specifiers mentioned e.g. in partial remission, etc.
Another thing thats blurry is the differential diagnosis between Delusional Disorder, Somatic type andAN/BN, concerning the intensity of distortion of the perception of body image. It sometimes seems to me that the patient is just pushed from one diagnosis to the next coz the diagnostic criteria for AN/BN is rather grey, and not black n white as it it for the rest of the disorders. I guess I'm very conditioned to the DSM spelling out the disgnostic criteria very clearly, unlike the ICD, which for a majority of part, calls for more clinical judgment than the DSM
 
soaringheights said:
Does the diagnosis have to continue in such cases based only on the perception of body image? If I remember, there are no specifiers mentioned e.g. in partial remission, etc.
Another thing thats blurry is the differential diagnosis between Delusional Disorder, Somatic type andAN/BN, concerning the intensity of distortion of the perception of body image. It sometimes seems to me that the patient is just pushed from one diagnosis to the next coz the diagnostic criteria for AN/BN is rather grey, and not black n white as it it for the rest of the disorders. I guess I'm very conditioned to the DSM spelling out the disgnostic criteria very clearly, unlike the ICD, which for a majority of part, calls for more clinical judgment than the DSM

Hmmm...well, I certainly don't consider myself an expert on diagnosis but my opinion is that the DSM gives us a standardized language to communicate in and roughly the same base line to coordinate tx from. I don't personally find any of the categories to be black and white (even though some proponents like to argue they are) and think a diagnosis always requires clinical judgement.

I agree with you that there is some blurr between Delusional Disorder, Somatic Type and AN/BN but on the other hand there is significant enough difference in criteria and recommended treatments that, with good use of clinical jusdgement and peer consultation, one can make a justifiable determination. I think it's one of those things that you may not know or be able to determine until you're working with a specific patient in the field. Until then it's just an interesting mental exercise.

Also, personally, I am not interested in diagnosis for diagnosis sake but rather how it can help me formulate a tx plan. When I wrote about the anorexic's fear of gaining weight, I was in part thinking of inpatient tx programs whereing the patient is nourished through an iv and/or their weight is maintained at a healthy level for them. So, even though they may start gaining weight, it's not actually because they are overcoming the thinking underlying the disorder and that would be a vital tx consideration.

Good luck... ;)
 
SH, this is the problem with the DSM. These artificial categories don't help the clinican much beyond billing.
 
Is it frustrating working with people with eating disorders as opposed to other disorders and such? I definitely need to learn more about the subject b/c I think I might find the topic somewhat annoying. That is due to my self acclaimed ignorance I'm sure. I have heard others speak about how frustrating it is working with these types and how even after prolonged treatment and therapy, these patients almost enjoy their disorders and hold on to them when they have made such great progress. Is it true that this is a very very difficult disorder to treat, and very difficult to see results or deal with in therapy? Can anyone give me some insight as to why this might be, if it really is? Thanks.
 
Psyclops, and that is the purpose of the DSM. MeghanHF you are right on. I am always mystified as to why people belive the DSM reflects real clinical dx/tx; it is only a means to an end...common language and billing. ;)
 
Shucks, psisci…glad we agree. Psychmom, I’d be really interested to hear other people’s opinions since I think your questions are difficult and great. In my limited experience, eating disorders are very difficult to treat and fall somewhat within the realm of addiction - in a sense that holding on to the disorder is built into the disorder itself.
 
I haven't come across any eating disorder case. But I think it'll be interesting to examine the cognitions of the patients: how does it start? What might be the point where they develop psychopathology? What are the neural correlates of their pathological cognitions? How might this be altered? Where does it stop being an eating disorder and develop into a Delusiional disorder, somatic symptoms? Or might it be a prodrome of the delusional disorder? Fascinating area, but then so is general psychopathology.
 
I can highly recommend Addicted to perfection: The still unravished bride by Marion Woodman to anyone interested in reading more about eating disorders. Be forwarned though, Marion Woodman is a Jungian Analyst, so if that's not your cup of tea...
 
pschmom1 said:
Is it frustrating working with people with eating disorders as opposed to other disorders and such? I definitely need to learn more about the subject b/c I think I might find the topic somewhat annoying. That is due to my self acclaimed ignorance I'm sure. I have heard others speak about how frustrating it is working with these types and how even after prolonged treatment and therapy, these patients almost enjoy their disorders and hold on to them when they have made such great progress. Is it true that this is a very very difficult disorder to treat, and very difficult to see results or deal with in therapy? Can anyone give me some insight as to why this might be, if it really is? Thanks.

As someone with an eating disorder, I can tell you that trying to recover has been very difficult. Your eating disorder kind of becomes a part of you ... letting go of it can be very scary. I've had an ED for a very long time, and it's hard to imagine what life would be without it. That's not to say that I don't want to get better ... it's just not as easy as it seems ... Then there's also the fact that in order to overcome my ED, I have to gain weight ... that in and of itself is terrifying. There's a lot of anxiety associated with eating normally ... there's a lot of anxiety associated with going out in public ... especially after you start gaining weight. It's all very complex.

I'm not sure what else to say ... I hope that the doctors who are involved in my recovery don't find it frustrating or annoying ... I, like many others, am trying hard to get better ... but it's kind of like an addiction ... except it's more difficult to overcome than your "ordinary" addiction because you need food to survive ... you can never get away from it ... but anyway ...
 
The U.S. Department of Health & Human Services' Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ) just issued the following which finds no effective medications for anorexia nervosa, but behavioral therapy may have a limited benefit. The report entitled "The Management of Eating Disorders" can be found at:

<http://www.ahrq.gov/downloads/pub/evidence/pdf/eatingdisorders/eatdis.pdf>
Copies of the report are available free of charge by calling the AHRQ
Publications Clearinghouse at 800-358-9295 or by sending an e-mail to
<[email protected]>.
 
Interesting Kristi, thanks for the reply :) I am not a doc yet, and like I said, I have little knowledge on the subject. If I were, which I am sure I will, deal with eating disorders, I will do everything that I can to help the patient and and myself understand and deal with what ever the underlying problem may be. I can see how it takes over you as I mentioned and as you explained, not to say that I understand, I can see. It is a very intriguing situation b/c of the "why" factors, if ya know what I mean. Thanks for the bit of insight on the subject and I wish you the best of luck throughout your treatment. :) Take care.
 
soaringheights said:
Does the diagnosis have to continue in such cases based only on the perception of body image? If I remember, there are no specifiers mentioned e.g. in partial remission, etc.

It sometimes seems to me that the patient is just pushed from one diagnosis to the next coz the diagnostic criteria for AN/BN is rather grey, and not black n white as it it for the rest of the disorders.

In my experience, dx will change based on body weight in AN/BP pts. At 84% of body weight, it's 307.1, but three pounds heavier it's 307.5. None of which seems terribly helpful to me, but what do I know? There must be a really good reason for doing it this way. :rolleyes:

There do seem to be some differences, though, between the two that carry over regardless of weight: BN is more associated with impulse control issues, and BPD (or other Cluster B PDs); while AN is more along the anxiety/OCD spectrum. (Although a friend of mine made a very interesting comment to me recently: AN is an impulse control disorder, in that there is too much impulse control. I'd never thought of it that way.)

psychmom said:
Is it frustrating working with people with eating disorders as opposed to other disorders and such? I definitely need to learn more about the subject b/c I think I might find the topic somewhat annoying. That is due to my self acclaimed ignorance I'm sure. I have heard others speak about how frustrating it is working with these types and how even after prolonged treatment and therapy, these patients almost enjoy their disorders and hold on to them when they have made such great progress. Is it true that this is a very very difficult disorder to treat, and very difficult to see results or deal with in therapy? Can anyone give me some insight as to why this might be, if it really is? Thanks.
Yes, eating disorders are very difficult to deal with, especially in adults, and many clinicians will not treat clients with EDs. Adults with non-purging AN have a hard time finding anyone to treat them, since even CEDS often exclude them from their practice. (Although a lot of the same practitioners won't treat BN with BPD symptomology, either. Kinda makes you wonder why they got the certification in the first place?)

There are a lot of reasons these pts are so frustrating. One is that they tend to be very intelligent, they do tend to recognize that they're sick -- but there's still that disconnect between intellectually knowing that they're sick, and actually recognizing the sickness in themselves. Add in the physical changes that take place, such as the loss of hunger/satiety sensations, gastroparesis, etc, (and the atrophy of the brain), and it's a very hard thing to treat. And frustrating because -- again -- these tend to be very intelligent young women, many of whom could be very likeable. (Many are likeable, but many are just so isolated within their pathology that it's hard to feel much connection.)

Walter Kaye at UPMC has done some studies showing disorders of the 5HT system that might shed some light on EDs. It may be that the 5HT anomolies are premorbid, and the EDs are attempts at self-medication. If so, that would also explain some of why ED pts hold on to their disorders so closely. On the purely psychological side, though, my own ED made me feel special, somehow. I was doing something right, finally -- I was in control of myself, my impulses, I wasn't indulging myself with food, I only ate enough to "satisfy my hunger," etc. And every commercial for diet products triggered me to lose more weight, so that I wouldn't have to face the shame of obesity; comments from others that I looked great (!), etc. Even those who knew that I was sick still gave mixed messages -- "You're sick -- how can I do it just a little?"

Well, I've said way too much. I hope someone found it helpful.
 
Could you explain how EDs would be an attempt at self medication?
 
Psyclops said:
Could you explain how EDs would be an attempt at self medication?

Sorry -- that was a bit cryptic, wasn't it? The studies showing abnormal levels of 5HT in the CNS suggested that the starvation might be a way of reducing the amount of tryptophan available, thus reducing 5HT. Since the excess 5HT is associated with anxiety, reduced dietary tryptophan resulting in reduced 5HT would reduce anxiety. So, self starvation as an anxiolytic, however crazy that might sound.

It's late, I'm brain dead anyway this week, and my bookmarks are screwed up. Otherwise, I'd try to post the links to those articles. I guess googling Walter Kaye is one option, or maybe PubMed?
 
Demosthenes said:
Sorry -- that was a bit cryptic, wasn't it? The studies showing abnormal levels of 5HT in the CNS suggested that the starvation might be a way of reducing the amount of tryptophan available, thus reducing 5HT. Since the excess 5HT is associated with anxiety, reduced dietary tryptophan resulting in reduced 5HT would reduce anxiety. So, self starvation as an anxiolytic, however crazy that might sound.

It's late, I'm brain dead anyway this week, and my bookmarks are screwed up. Otherwise, I'd try to post the links to those articles. I guess googling Walter Kaye is one option, or maybe PubMed?

I'd have to take a look at those articles but that is pretty far fetched in my opinion. My question would be, why aren't ED patients just limiting the intake of food that are high in tryptophan such as chocolate, milk, turkey, etc. ?

Of course if they just had a hightened level of anxiety and they somehow associated that with food....

But how does that account for the disparate # of cases of AN for example in different cultures, my understanding is that EDs are almost non-existant in non-developed nations.
 
Hey all
My comp's been giving me trouble for the past 2 weeks so couldn't reply earlier.
I read up on eating disorders from the Oxford Book of Psychopathology, and the difference became much clearer to me. Off hand I remember that some difference relates to impulse control. I'll put up the other differences in a few days.
 
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