Elephant Abuse in Ringling Bros. Cirucus

[Crazy Hippos]

You can watch the video here:

http://www.canada.com/news/PETA+says+elephants+abused+circus+video/1817182/story.html

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[rileyroo]

i would love to hit those guys in the face.

 

[Backwoods Boy]

I sure do not condone hitting the elephants but I also do not agree with PETA and their so-called "ideals".

 

[rugbychick16]

Ditto-I would sign, but not if PETA is the ones with the petition. Almost makes me want to go to a circus just to annoy them.

 

[sinker]

Ditto-I would sign, but not if PETA is the ones with the petition. Almost makes me want to go to a circus just to annoy them.

I know that was a joke, but I don't think there is anything funny about that video or animal abuse. That video makes me sick, and if signing a PETA petition will help those poor animals, I'll do it.

Again, I know Rugbychick16 wasn't trying to be cruel

 

[david594]

I know that was a joke, but I don't think there is anything funny about that video or animal abuse. That video makes me sick, and if signing a PETA petition will help those poor animals, I'll do it.

Again, I know Rugbychick16 wasn't trying to be cruel

No, I am willing to bet she was quite serious. The majority of us here do not support PETA.

Proof PETA and vets arn't always in agreement: http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/610393

 

[Backwoods Boy]

No, I am willing to bet she was quite serious. The majority of us here do not support PETA.

Proof PETA and vets arn't always in agreement: http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/610393

I have a feeling you are right about this one.

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

Apparently the Ringling Brothers Circus was aquitted in the ASPCA's case against them for that same elephant abuse. Hopefully this is not a case of double jeopardy. I am not a member of any extremist animal rights groups (like those that think horseback riding should be illegal), but nothing gets my blood boiling more than witnessing innocent, intelligent animals being abused in the name of frivolous human entertainment. Personally, I think all circus animal acts should be illegal. It is ironic that this subject was mentioned now because I am currently working on a painting involving an elephant about to step on the big top!!! (See attached)

 

[shortnsweet]

Animal abuse makes me absolutely sick. There was a case in Baltimore a month ago where two teenagers poured gasoline all over a dog and lit it on fire. I can't believe people can knowingly do that to an animal.


On the other hand, I agree with the above...I strongly dislike PETA and refuse to support their causes.

 

[susiewaits]

I am not going to say that I am for hitting any animal. But in terms of batting and the rear think about this..

many of you ride out here in pre-vet land horseback ride. I for one don't tend to use spurs, but do often carry a whip. Now consider the difference in skin toughness between a horse and an elephant, and consider what may be appropriate in terms of motivation to move forward. I certainly dont raise my arm high up in the air and crack down with the whip. But tap heavy enough to surprise, but light enough not to scare is quite common in riding.

The whips near the face are some cause for concern.

please dont jump all over me..just trying to give this some perspective..i know nothing about elephants

 

[susiewaits]

I am not going to say that I am for hitting any animal. But in terms of batting and the rear think about this..

many of you out here in pre-vet land horseback ride. I for one don't tend to use spurs, but do often carry a whip. Now consider the difference in skin toughness between a horse and an elephant, and consider what may be appropriate in terms of motivation to move forward. I certainly dont raise my arm high up in the air and crack down with the whip. But tap heavy enough to surprise, but light enough not to scare is quite common in riding.

The whips near the face are some cause for concern.

please dont jump all over me..just trying to give this some perspective..i know nothing about elephants

 

[EqSci]

I have to agree with you susie. Videos, when edited correctly, can be sooo misleading. Using the horseback example, someone could easily compile a video that 'shows' me being abusive to my horse if they followed me around for 5 months (this article says Jan to June I believe) and showed all the clips of me using the crop, smacking him in the nose when he tries to bite, and standing in the cross-ties pawing when he's bored. And I have sworn at him a few times in our 6 years together! But that is not representative of our relationship, which is trust and respect on both sides. He's an excellent horse and I love him to death.

The video did disturb me, and I don't particularly like circuses anyway simply because I think it's unfair for these undomesticated animals, but you have to keep in mind the power of video editing. Until you follow the trainers around in person for a month or two and learn elephant behavior, you can't really judge. There are rare times when a bit more force is needed when you are working with an animal much, much larger than you. Otherwise it can get dangerous fast. I'm all for positive reinforcement training, but there is a time and place for punishment/negative reinforcement IMO.

 

[rileyroo]

I am not going to say that I am for hitting any animal. But in terms of batting and the rear think about this..

many of you out here in pre-vet land horseback ride. I for one don't tend to use spurs, but do often carry a whip. Now consider the difference in skin toughness between a horse and an elephant, and consider what may be appropriate in terms of motivation to move forward. I certainly dont raise my arm high up in the air and crack down with the whip. But tap heavy enough to surprise, but light enough not to scare is quite common in riding.

The whips near the face are some cause for concern.

please dont jump all over me..just trying to give this some perspective..i know nothing about elephants

i don't care how tough the skin is, whipping an animal in the face and digging in/yanking down hard with a hook can not be justified. not to mention, you state you are using a whip to get your horse to go. they weren't whipping the elephants in the face to get them to go. if you watch the videos, most of the time they were smacking them in the face while they were just standing around in the back room). one of the elephants even turned its head away to avoid being hit and the guy stepped forward and continued whipping.

i know you address that the whips near the face are of concern, i'm agreeing with you on that.

 

[turnandburn]

The one trainer did look to me to be a little too 'whip happy.' But I agree it's really hard to make a true judgment call when all the clips are taken out of context. And of course, knowing it's PETA who did the video editing, who could make Mother Theresa look like a vicious abuser...

 

[rileyroo]

And of course, knowing it's PETA who did the video editing, who could make Mother Theresa look like a vicious abuser...

 

[twelvetigers]

I don't think that what is shown in the videos can be equivocated in any way with pouring gasoline on a dog and lighting it.

I know that's not what shortnsweet was saying, but it's a good way to express my opinion here. While I think that circuses (involving animals, i.e. not Cirque de Soleil) are stupid (because watching tigers jump around a ring and bow down to a master is not something I do for fun), I also have no idea what it would take to make a # ton elephant do what you want it to. Considering what it requires to make some horses cooperate (twitch, sedation, whips) I think that the stuff shown in the video is not as cruel as it appears. I'll certainly agree that the trainers seemed a bit heavy handed, and that I coudn't really tell why they were doing it for the most part. But I'm pretty sure I wouldn't label what happens in the video as downright abuse.

I just wish that circuses didn't use animals at all, and then this whole debate would be moot. Would't people still come to see the trapeze artists and stuff? Are elephants necessary?

Also, what about smaller circuses? I would imagine that the trainers in this video are some of the 'better' ones, if they work for huge thing like Ringling...

 

[Mistoffeles]

I just wish that circuses didn't use animals at all, and then this whole debate would be moot. Would't people still come to see the trapeze artists and stuff? Are elephants necessary?

Also, what about smaller circuses? I would imagine that the trainers in this video are some of the 'better' ones, if they work for huge thing like Ringling...

a lot of the smaller circuses in germany, which i saw when i was a child, do not use animals (with the exception of horses, who are ridden in formation, and heavily involved in the acrobatic acts). they focus on the "magic" and "spectacle". i loved these shows, and was always vaguely annoyed by the ringling bros. show when i saw it here in the US.

one of my favorites: Circus Roncalli. My apologies, i don't think their website has an english translation.

 

[susiewaits]

a lot of the smaller circuses in germany, which i saw when i was a child, do not use animals (with the exception of horses, who are ridden in formation, and heavily involved in the acrobatic acts). they focus on the "magic" and "spectacle". i loved these shows, and was always vaguely annoyed by the ringling bros. show when i saw it here in the US.

one of my favorites: Circus Roncalli. My apologies, i don't think their website has an english translation.

I saw Roncalli...ITS AMAZING!

Are you from Germany??! Ive lived in the US for a long time, but im still a citizen..was born in Ludwigshafen

 

[shortnsweet]

I wasn't trying to compare them at all!! I was just trying to point out how cruel people can be and that story jumped into my mind because a few people and I were discussing it the other day.

That video may very well be edited and made to look worse than it actually is, but it just breaks my heart to see any animal suffer at the hand of a person. At one point the elephant was just standing there and the guy insulted it and hit it for no reason that I could see...I have seen people work with elephants before (as I worked at the Maryland Zoo) but they never hit them. The had a stick to keep distance, but they only ever tapped them with it to indicate what they wanted them to do or pointed with the stick and touched the ground to show them where they wanted them to move to. I know they aren't performing elephants per say, but I feel like it is how the animal is trained.

 

[Mistoffeles]

I saw Roncalli...ITS AMAZING!

Are you from Germany??! Ive lived in the US for a long time, but im still a citizen..was born in Ludwigshafen

i was born in the US, but my father was born in Berlin, and his family lived in Hamburg (more precisely, Shenefeld in Schleswig-Holstein, but just barely over the border) while i was growing up. so, lots of time spent there. i'm actually going to spend about two weeks there before i head to london to start school - i haven't been back since the grandparents died about 15 years ago. sadly, my spoken german is woeful - i've been working with rosetta stone to try and bring it back to a modicum of respectability before i go. i can still read it reasonably well though.

and that's actually one of the reasons i chose RVC - i think that i'd like to explore the possibility of moving to germany after school, so a degree that the EU already recognizes is a good motivation.

i'm a little jealous of you, being from so close to Heidelberg. they have some of the best chamber orchestras in the world.

end

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

I am no pachyderm expert, but an elephant's skin can be up to one inch thick on some parts of its body, but is so sensitive and loaded with nerve endings that it can feel a fly land on it. I do understand that the videotape would have to be viewed in context and the prevalence of this "negative reinforcement" training would have to be studied in order to see the true reality of the situation. However, I get to wonder, if it takes bull hooks, whips, electric prods, and chains to manage these animals, then they don't belong in the "domesticated" circus in the first place.
After saying that, I am sure that I will get a response along the lines of "if it takes bits, girths, saddles, spurs, and whips to manage horses, then they shouldn't be ridden in the first place." I guess that the issue also involves the use of wild vs domestic animals, not that there should be any difference, I mean abuse is abuse. However, the use of these training methods among animals that have a long history of domestication seems to be more acceptable in our society.

 

[sinker]

Even though I agree with all the above posts that some of PETA's tactics and some of their views are a bit extreme, the above video still makes me upset. Elephant's skin may be very thick, but seeing them beaten like that makes me wonder what else is going on at Ringling Bros to the other animals...

Using animals in sports like horseback riding etc. seems great to me, but any situation where they are beaten like in that video just seems wrong.

 

[sumstorm]

If these are Asian Elephants (didn't watch the clip) then they are likely DOMESTICATED elephants. Asia has both wild and domesticated elephants. I have worked with both in zoos and in Asia as a volunteer for hill tribe village veterinary care. Domesticated elephants, for the most part, are born in captivity and will not/can not survive on their own. Some will manage fine, others get very sick, injure themselves, starve, etc. Part of the work I participated in involved a sanctuary where domestic elephants are reintroduced to the wild slowly, with the hopes that future generations of offspring may be wild. We also conducted studies on wild elephants. Elephants, once brought into captivity (and in Asia, that isn't a recent development) have no pack in the wild.

Just wanted to clarify that not all elephants are wild, and most entertainment venues use domesticated elephants.

The mahout hook is a traditional tool. It is as kind or as harsh as its handler, much the way a leash can be an implement of violence and death or a simple restraint between handler and dog.

I didn't watch the video because elephants are incredibly intelligent creatures. There isn't a need to use violence to train them. Even though their skin is thick, their tactile response is amazing. An elephant can detect the pressure of finger tips on the vast majority of their bodies. Their feet are so sensitive they can detect and avoid crushing an egg underfoot. Elephants can and do kill, but nearly every incident has involved an animal that was abused by a mahout. I spent many hours cleaning out the tusk cavity of a bull elephant whose ivory was taken because his mahout considered him 'horrible and lazy'...he lived through the torturous procedure, broke the legs of that mahout, and then was bought by the sanctuary to protect him. Even though the cleaning was painful (it never heals) he never even pushed us away. Positive reinforcement training is the most effective method with every animal I have worked for so far, including elephants. Use of punishment only raises the question of who has the most might...and some day the punished creature might challenge the status quo with disasterous results.

As far as PETA.....I can't go along with them...but I wanted to clarify whether thickness of skin requires harsher contact on elephants. I can, with all sincerity, testify that thickness isn't the same as tactile perception...and elephants have plenty of both.

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

No elephant has ever been truly domesticated due to the fact that no selective breeding or artificial selection has been performed on elephants.

 

[ImaJerseyGirl]

Whips and spurs with horses are used to reinforce leg aids. You apply leg pressure and the horse moves away, you reinforce if needed with artificial aids in the same area your leg is- not their face!
I watched the video, and kept asking WHY they were hitting them in the face?! I can see a light tap on the haunches or shoulder to give a directional cue, but repeatedly hitting in the face was uncalled for with in the same 10 or so sec. clip.
Now, assemble a video of me and my horse over 6 months and edit it down the the 0.1% of the time I DO reinforce or disciple and oh good gosh...
And how do they get the cameras in there! Peta magic!

 

[EqSci]

Use of punishment only raises the question of who has the most might

I disagree. Punishment is simply another method of training. Positive R is used to increase desired behaviors, while punishment is more effective in many situations for decreasing undesired behaviors. Raising your voice is a form of punishment, as is tugging on a leash. It doesn't have to be violent.

I think what you meant to say was use of manhandling and force only raises the question of who has the most might? In that case I completely agree with you.

I still say the videos are taken out of context. Using positive R to ask an elephant to hold still through a painful procedure is way different than working closely with the animal on a daily basis for hours at a time during times of high stress, new environments, in-depth training, etc. There may be a time or two in 6 months where punishment is needed. WE cannot see anything the elephant did, but WE cannot read elephant behavior and we don't see the few seconds before the punishment.

Again, personally I think the elephant was hit a bit hard and it seemed unnecessary. But I'm trying to reserve judgment because the video is taken out of context.

There have been times when I've jerked on the leadrope (making my horse raise his head and back away like the elephants in question) because my horse was crowding me... dangerous. But to onlookers it would seem as though I spun and jerked the leadrope for no reason. And my poor horse was just standing there getting his face jerked on. In reality, sometimes they need reminders to mind their manners, and it's not all kisses and treats.

As a disclaimer, I am not a violent trainer nor do I use punishment often. I clicker train and believe in a trusting relationship between human and animal, not one that is based on force. But that doesn't mean that forceful punishment is NEVER indicated, and it sometimes IS the best way to get your point across.

 

[pitbull lover]

I will not watch the video because it would get me so upset. I get that the video could be taken out of context, but I still feel like some of the posts are defending the actions of the circus. EVERYTIME there is talk about PETA (I don't necessarily believe in PETA and do think they are extreme and have there priorities out of order), people automatically justify whatever the org. is exposing. EVERYTIME a fellow SDNer shows concern about the welfare of animals, people get defensive and think that person is naive, weak, and uninformed. I am tired of future vets, my future comrads poo-pooing off animal welfare and ethics in your education as a veterinarian. Are we all that desensitized and cynical now to see that there are issues that need to be addressed and improved? Is everybody ok with the way things are now? That is what we should be talking about, the bigger picture. Where are my peeps?

Just because PETA is extreme, doesn't mean that they don't have a valid point on SOME of the things they expose-- farm animal conditions, lab animal treatment, shelter treatment etc. And yes, there are pre-vets on here that are going into this area of work. I know that people will always eat meat and there are vets that need to care for the food animals. There will always be a need to do research on animals for the benefit of humans, and there are vets that need to care for the lab animals and their welfare. But again, don't you think that we as vets need to make some improvements?

Forget about the minutiae of whether an elephant's skin is tough enough or if they are domesticated or not... Do you believe that elephants (or other animals such as lions, tigers, and bears oh my) belong in a circus??? I personally do not.

And please don't flame my post. If it seems extreme to you, it's because some of the posts seemed extreme to me and it is a reaction to the many other posts on animal welfare issues in the veterinary field.

Have a smiley face day.

 

[susiewaits]

some of us are realists.

and if you can't watch this video, how are you going to handle abuse situations when you do become a vet?


sorry bad mood today

 

[sinker]

but I still feel like some of the posts are defending the actions of the circus. EVERYTIME there is talk about PETA (I don't necessarily believe in PETA and do think they are extreme and have there priorities out of order), people automatically justify whatever the org. is exposing. ......

Just because PETA is extreme, doesn't mean that they don't have a valid point on SOME of the things they expose-- farm animal conditions, lab animal treatment, shelter treatment etc.

I TOTALLY agree with you!!! Let's not forget about the Hormel supplier incident; where undercover PETA agents videotaped employees sexually assaulting sows with sticks and beating and kicking them. In that case criminal charges were eventually laid against the employees, so we have to remember that PETA has helped farm and other animals in many ways. If nothing else, people will treat their animals better just to ward off negative attention from the group. For that I'm grateful, regardless of the tactics that may be over the top.

 

[pitbull lover]

some of us are realists.

and if you can't watch this video, how are you going to handle abuse situations when you do become a vet?


sorry bad mood today

See I knew someone would say something like that. I can watch the video, I choose not to. I have been in the veterinary field (SA) for 13 years as well as working with animal rescue groups and have seen some f***ed up s**t. I feel hurt that you would suggest that because I am sensitive towards animal abuse and feel compassion that I am not going to be strong enough for vet med. I won't watch 'Faces of Death' either--Does that make me incapable of being a competent vet?

And by the way, I am a realist too. I tend to be more on the pessimistic side myself but there is a part of my idealist nature that I will hold on to because that characteristic is not very common but necessary.

Sorry you are in a bad mood.

 

[hopefulvet21]

I will not watch the video because it would get me so upset. I get that the video could be taken out of context, but I still feel like some of the posts are defending the actions of the circus. EVERYTIME there is talk about PETA (I don't necessarily believe in PETA and do think they are extreme and have there priorities out of order), people automatically justify whatever the org. is exposing. EVERYTIME a fellow SDNer shows concern about the welfare of animals, people get defensive and think that person is naive, weak, and uninformed. I am tired of future vets, my future comrads poo-pooing off animal welfare and ethics in your education as a veterinarian. Are we all that desensitized and cynical now to see that there are issues that need to be addressed and improved? Is everybody ok with the way things are now? That is what we should be talking about, the bigger picture. Where are my peeps?

Just because PETA is extreme, doesn't mean that they don't have a valid point on SOME of the things they expose-- farm animal conditions, lab animal treatment, shelter treatment etc. And yes, there are pre-vets on here that are going into this area of work. I know that people will always eat meat and there are vets that need to care for the food animals. There will always be a need to do research on animals for the benefit of humans, and there are vets that need to care for the lab animals and their welfare. But again, don't you think that we as vets need to make some improvements?

Forget about the minutiae of whether an elephant's skin is tough enough or if they are domesticated or not... Do you believe that elephants (or other animals such as lions, tigers, and bears oh my) belong in a circus??? I personally do not.

Very true. There's certainly a lot of improvements that need to be made across the board in animal welfare.

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

I felt the same way when reading the responses to the OP. I was wondering where the empathy and sensitivity toward elephants was, but instead, was reading posts about defending the circus with explanations about a biased videotape. My first response is to defend the elephants and not the alleged animal abusers, until I learn differently. I do agree that we need to achieve a more accurate representation of the reality, but my first response is to support the animal's position until I know better. I am wondering why this animosity toward PETA seems to be so prevalent on this forum. By the way, I am not a member of PETA and think that some of their positions are extreme. However, knowing that their main concern is animal welfare, they have to be doing something right. Just the fact that we are discussing this video shows an increase in awareness of what occurs in animal training at circuses and if the general public sees this video, they may also have second thoughts about buying tickets to the circus. Circus makes no money, goes bankrupt, and the animal abuse will stop. I also agree that there should not be any animal acts in circuses (domestic, semi-domestic, wild, whatever) and feel that the perception of animal-rights advocates needs to change so that they are no longer viewed as being naive and out of touch with reality. Instead, they should be viewed with an appreciation that they are trying to protect these animal victims that cannot testify for themselves.

 

[DollyyLlama]

I am tired of future vets, my future comrads poo-pooing off animal welfare and ethics in your education as a veterinarian. Are we all that desensitized and cynical now to see that there are issues that need to be addressed and improved? Is everybody ok with the way things are now? That is what we should be talking about, the bigger picture. Where are my peeps?

 

[Chapelle]

a

 

[rugbychick16]

By the way, I am not a member of PETA and think that some of their positions are extreme. However, knowing that their main concern is animal welfare, they have to be doing something right.
QUOTE]

PETA's main focus is animal rights, not animal welfare. Big, big difference. If you tell a PETA member you support them in their animal welfare views, they will angrily tell you that their organization supports animal rights, not animal welfare (I've had this conversation). See as follows

http://www.peta.org/about/faq.asp

PETA is also against the AVMA, since they are only for "animal welfare", which isn't good enough.

 

[david594]

[YOUTUBE]7ZuT5mCvki0[/YOUTUBE]

 

[sumstorm]

Never mind. not relevant to the topic at hand.

 

[Parasitologist]

lyndaeylzoo wouldnt you consider hoseback riding frivolous human entertainment? Im going to the zoo today!

 

[david594]

I also agree that there should not be any animal acts in circuses (domestic, semi-domestic, wild, whatever) and feel that the perception of animal-rights advocates needs to change so that they are no longer viewed as being naive and out of touch with reality. Instead, they should be viewed with an appreciation that they are trying to protect these animal victims that cannot testify for themselves.

In supporting the "animal-rights advocates" you are also supporting the rest of the agendas that they are pushing. So I would take this to mean you are personally volunteering to be one of the guinea-pigs to replace all those "animal victims" human drugs are first tested on?

I don't appreciate that these advocates are opposed to the labs and the research that are at the core of medical advancements.

 

[Chapelle]

a

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

I knew that I was going to receive a response about the relationship between elephants in circuses and horseback riding and I think that the issue has to do with domestication. Horses have been artificially selected for performance purposes and elephants have not. Due to their long gestation periods, many elephants are wild-caught and then trained to perform completely unnatural acts (of course, then the response about how natural horseback riding is). The fact that electric prods, chains, and bull hooks need to be used just to manage these animals tells me that maybe they should not be circus performers. Having said that, I do think that zoos are important because many species may be extinct without them and they have adapted and become more involved in education, research, and conservation efforts and are not merely entertaining exhibits. The circus is not involved in any conservation efforts, until recently when the lawsuits started to appear . As for laboratory animal research, I am not against it either. I agree that lab animal use is imperative in medical research and development, however, I hope that one day lab animals will no longer be needed due to advanced biomimicry programs that can accurately simulate an animals physiological response. I know, some of you may think I am dreaming, but with virtual reality, you never know....I do feel that PETA may be somewhat extremist, but I think that they have the animal's interest at heart and I have to respect them for that. We should not just dismiss them as unrealistic radical extremists. Anyways, enough for now, I'm off to the zoo!!!!

 

[bakaduin]

No elephant has ever been truly domesticated due to the fact that no selective breeding or artificial selection has been performed on elephants.

No selective breeding in elephants? While I agree I wouldn't call elephants domesticated you can't say they haven't been selected. The Association of Zoos and Aquariums has been working in conjunction with zoos around the nation (like Disney's Animal Kindgom) to mate elephants. Elephants have been transferred from zoo to zoo to select certain matings and of course AI is used in many cases, though the technology to freeze elephant semen isn't quite there yet.

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

I meant to say the selective breeding of elephants for particular genetic traits. I know that zoos breed elephants and transport them to different zoos, but I thought the reason for that was to increase genetic diversity and to avoid a genetic drift, so to speak, in zoological institutions. I am not aware of any elephant breeding for particular traits, such as strength, ear size, weight, or thickness of skin. Horses are selectively bred for performance, color, conformation, and other genetic traits that humans find desirable.

 

[Bill59]

I am wondering why this animosity toward PETA seems to be so prevalent on this forum. ...However, knowing that their main concern is animal welfare, they have to be doing something right.

The animosity toward PETA among many veterinarians is because their main concern is not animal welfare. It's animal rights. This includes the right to not be kept as pets. PETA also works to stop all animal based medical research, the results of which veterinarians use every day to help their patients.

 

[chris03333]

I am wondering why this animosity toward PETA seems to be so prevalent on this forum. However, knowing that their main concern is animal welfare, they have to be doing something right.

PETA couldn't give a **** about animal welfare. They are an animal rights organization. Completely another ball game. It is an insult to all animal welfare organizations, and actually to PETA to call them concerned with animal welfare.

I have the extreme opinion (meaning I don't ususally comment because you can argue with me until you are blue in the face and I won't budge on this) that being a veterinarian and supporting animal rights (or believing in animal rights) is extremely hypocritical.

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

I am admitting to my ignorance about the differences between animal rights and animal welfare. In some cases I support PETA's positions, such as in this case of circus elephants, but in others, such as the use of animals in research, I do not.

 

[dyachei]

I am admitting to my ignorance about the differences between animal rights and animal welfare. In some cases I support PETA's positions, such as in this case of circus elephants, but in others, such as the use of animals in research, I do not.

Animal rights - animals should have the same rights as humans. Using them at all is a violation of their rights. Use includes pet ownership, food production, entertainment (zoos included), and research.

Animal welfare - essentially that animals shouldn't be mistreated in any way. This includes appropriate housing, handling, management, etc.

For anyone else that doesn't know, this is a commonly asked interview question.

http://www.animalwelfarecouncil.com/html/aw/rights.php

 

[EqSci]

My first response is to defend the elephants and not the alleged animal abusers, until I learn differently.

And I think this is what's wrong with the world. People jumping to conclusions, so eager to point a finger, ready to start throwing punches. It's mob mentality. People need to stop and think before reacting. Organizations like PETA count on people to think with their emotions and not their brains... it's how they've accomplished everything. They would have almost zero public support if they ran their org based on facts and truthfulness.

PETA aside, one day you could end up in a situation that looks very bad on your part, and I'm sure you would want people to stop and think and give you the benefit of the doubt before they start calling for the electric chair. Just something to think about.

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

EquiSci,

I agree that I may need some more emotional detachment in alleged animal abuse cases and learn to not make accusations until I have more evidence. It is very difficult for me, however to witness that videotape, or any other abuse animal abuse case without any emotional response. The fact that the ASPCA had also accused Ringling Brothers of the same animal abuse, however, provides more evidence than just this videotape produced by PETA. I was considering that as well when making my statements.

 

[sumstorm]

No selective breeding in elephants? While I agree I wouldn't call elephants domesticated you can't say they haven't been selected. The Association of Zoos and Aquariums has been working in conjunction with zoos around the nation (like Disney's Animal Kindgom) to mate elephants. Elephants have been transferred from zoo to zoo to select certain matings and of course AI is used in many cases, though the technology to freeze elephant semen isn't quite there yet.

Actually, selective breeding in elephants goes back to the campaigns of Alexander the Great. They are still selectively bred in India and SE Asia. Most elephants used for work, including logging and entertaining, were selectively bred in captivity. Many of those animals are more selectivly bred than the beef steers in the farms around where I grew up.