You can watch the video here:
http://www.canada.com/news/PETA+says+elephants+abused+circus+video/1817182/story.html
http://www.canada.com/news/PETA+says+elephants+abused+circus+video/1817182/story.html
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Ditto-I would sign, but not if PETA is the ones with the petition. Almost makes me want to go to a circus just to annoy them.
No, I am willing to bet she was quite serious. The majority of us here do not support PETA.I know that was a joke, but I don't think there is anything funny about that video or animal abuse. That video makes me sick, and if signing a PETA petition will help those poor animals, I'll do it.
Again, I know Rugbychick16 wasn't trying to be cruel![]()
I have a feeling you are right about this one.No, I am willing to bet she was quite serious. The majority of us here do not support PETA.
Proof PETA and vets arn't always in agreement: http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/610393
I am not going to say that I am for hitting any animal. But in terms of batting and the rear think about this..
many of you out here in pre-vet land horseback ride. I for one don't tend to use spurs, but do often carry a whip. Now consider the difference in skin toughness between a horse and an elephant, and consider what may be appropriate in terms of motivation to move forward. I certainly dont raise my arm high up in the air and crack down with the whip. But tap heavy enough to surprise, but light enough not to scare is quite common in riding.
The whips near the face are some cause for concern.
please dont jump all over me..just trying to give this some perspective..i know nothing about elephants
And of course, knowing it's PETA who did the video editing, who could make Mother Theresa look like a vicious abuser...![]()
a lot of the smaller circuses in germany, which i saw when i was a child, do not use animals (with the exception of horses, who are ridden in formation, and heavily involved in the acrobatic acts). they focus on the "magic" and "spectacle". i loved these shows, and was always vaguely annoyed by the ringling bros. show when i saw it here in the US.I just wish that circuses didn't use animals at all, and then this whole debate would be moot. Would't people still come to see the trapeze artists and stuff? Are elephants necessary?
Also, what about smaller circuses? I would imagine that the trainers in this video are some of the 'better' ones, if they work for huge thing like Ringling...
a lot of the smaller circuses in germany, which i saw when i was a child, do not use animals (with the exception of horses, who are ridden in formation, and heavily involved in the acrobatic acts). they focus on the "magic" and "spectacle". i loved these shows, and was always vaguely annoyed by the ringling bros. show when i saw it here in the US.
one of my favorites: Circus Roncalli. My apologies, i don't think their website has an english translation.
i was born in the US, but my father was born in Berlin, and his family lived in Hamburg (more precisely, Shenefeld in Schleswig-Holstein, but just barely over the border) while i was growing up. so, lots of time spent there. i'm actually going to spend about two weeks there before i head to london to start school - i haven't been back since the grandparents died about 15 years ago. sadly, my spoken german is woeful - i've been working with rosetta stone to try and bring it back to a modicum of respectability before i go. i can still read it reasonably well though.I saw Roncalli...ITS AMAZING!
Are you from Germany??! Ive lived in the US for a long time, but im still a citizen..was born in Ludwigshafen
I disagree. Punishment is simply another method of training. Positive R is used to increase desired behaviors, while punishment is more effective in many situations for decreasing undesired behaviors. Raising your voice is a form of punishment, as is tugging on a leash. It doesn't have to be violent.Use of punishment only raises the question of who has the most might
but I still feel like some of the posts are defending the actions of the circus. EVERYTIME there is talk about PETA (I don't necessarily believe in PETA and do think they are extreme and have there priorities out of order), people automatically justify whatever the org. is exposing. ......
Just because PETA is extreme, doesn't mean that they don't have a valid point on SOME of the things they expose-- farm animal conditions, lab animal treatment, shelter treatment etc.
See I knew someone would say something like that. I can watch the video, I choose not to. I have been in the veterinary field (SA) for 13 years as well as working with animal rescue groups and have seen some f***ed up s**t. I feel hurt that you would suggest that because I am sensitive towards animal abuse and feel compassion that I am not going to be strong enough for vet med. I won't watch 'Faces of Death' either--Does that make me incapable of being a competent vet?some of us are realists.
and if you can't watch this video, how are you going to handle abuse situations when you do become a vet?
sorry bad mood today![]()
Very true. There's certainly a lot of improvements that need to be made across the board in animal welfare.I will not watch the video because it would get me so upset. I get that the video could be taken out of context, but I still feel like some of the posts are defending the actions of the circus. EVERYTIME there is talk about PETA (I don't necessarily believe in PETA and do think they are extreme and have there priorities out of order), people automatically justify whatever the org. is exposing. EVERYTIME a fellow SDNer shows concern about the welfare of animals, people get defensive and think that person is naive, weak, and uninformed. I am tired of future vets, my future comrads poo-pooing off animal welfare and ethics in your education as a veterinarian. Are we all that desensitized and cynical now to see that there are issues that need to be addressed and improved? Is everybody ok with the way things are now? That is what we should be talking about, the bigger picture. Where are my peeps?
Just because PETA is extreme, doesn't mean that they don't have a valid point on SOME of the things they expose-- farm animal conditions, lab animal treatment, shelter treatment etc. And yes, there are pre-vets on here that are going into this area of work. I know that people will always eat meat and there are vets that need to care for the food animals. There will always be a need to do research on animals for the benefit of humans, and there are vets that need to care for the lab animals and their welfare. But again, don't you think that we as vets need to make some improvements?
Forget about the minutiae of whether an elephant's skin is tough enough or if they are domesticated or not... Do you believe that elephants (or other animals such as lions, tigers, and bears oh my) belong in a circus??? I personally do not.
I am tired of future vets, my future comrads poo-pooing off animal welfare and ethics in your education as a veterinarian. Are we all that desensitized and cynical now to see that there are issues that need to be addressed and improved? Is everybody ok with the way things are now? That is what we should be talking about, the bigger picture. Where are my peeps?
By the way, I am not a member of PETA and think that some of their positions are extreme. However, knowing that their main concern is animal welfare, they have to be doing something right.
QUOTE]
PETA's main focus is animal rights, not animal welfare. Big, big difference. If you tell a PETA member you support them in their animal welfare views, they will angrily tell you that their organization supports animal rights, not animal welfare (I've had this conversation). See as follows
http://www.peta.org/about/faq.asp
PETA is also against the AVMA, since they are only for "animal welfare", which isn't good enough.
In supporting the "animal-rights advocates" you are also supporting the rest of the agendas that they are pushing. So I would take this to mean you are personally volunteering to be one of the guinea-pigs to replace all those "animal victims" human drugs are first tested on?I also agree that there should not be any animal acts in circuses (domestic, semi-domestic, wild, whatever) and feel that the perception of animal-rights advocates needs to change so that they are no longer viewed as being naive and out of touch with reality. Instead, they should be viewed with an appreciation that they are trying to protect these animal victims that cannot testify for themselves.
No selective breeding in elephants? While I agree I wouldn't call elephants domesticated you can't say they haven't been selected. The Association of Zoos and Aquariums has been working in conjunction with zoos around the nation (like Disney's Animal Kindgom) to mate elephants. Elephants have been transferred from zoo to zoo to select certain matings and of course AI is used in many cases, though the technology to freeze elephant semen isn't quite there yet.No elephant has ever been truly domesticated due to the fact that no selective breeding or artificial selection has been performed on elephants.
The animosity toward PETA among many veterinarians is because their main concern is not animal welfare. It's animal rights. This includes the right to not be kept as pets. PETA also works to stop all animal based medical research, the results of which veterinarians use every day to help their patients.I am wondering why this animosity toward PETA seems to be so prevalent on this forum. ...However, knowing that their main concern is animal welfare, they have to be doing something right.
PETA couldn't give a sh!t about animal welfare. They are an animal rights organization. Completely another ball game. It is an insult to all animal welfare organizations, and actually to PETA to call them concerned with animal welfare.I am wondering why this animosity toward PETA seems to be so prevalent on this forum. However, knowing that their main concern is animal welfare, they have to be doing something right.
I am admitting to my ignorance about the differences between animal rights and animal welfare. In some cases I support PETA's positions, such as in this case of circus elephants, but in others, such as the use of animals in research, I do not.
And I think this is what's wrong with the world. People jumping to conclusions, so eager to point a finger, ready to start throwing punches. It's mob mentality. People need to stop and think before reacting. Organizations like PETA count on people to think with their emotions and not their brains... it's how they've accomplished everything. They would have almost zero public support if they ran their org based on facts and truthfulness.My first response is to defend the elephants and not the alleged animal abusers, until I learn differently.
Actually, selective breeding in elephants goes back to the campaigns of Alexander the Great. They are still selectively bred in India and SE Asia. Most elephants used for work, including logging and entertaining, were selectively bred in captivity. Many of those animals are more selectivly bred than the beef steers in the farms around where I grew up.No selective breeding in elephants? While I agree I wouldn't call elephants domesticated you can't say they haven't been selected. The Association of Zoos and Aquariums has been working in conjunction with zoos around the nation (like Disney's Animal Kindgom) to mate elephants. Elephants have been transferred from zoo to zoo to select certain matings and of course AI is used in many cases, though the technology to freeze elephant semen isn't quite there yet.