Elimination of advanced standing MD? OMS Armagedon?

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OMSKooK

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With the seemingly growing tensions between dual degree and single degree OMS tracts (ie recent AMA Scope of Practice attack etc) there seems that one day there may come an OMS armageddon/civil war. I have already heard talk about the future generations of OMS splitting into oral surgeons (restricted to dentoalveolar and single degree) and maxillofacial surgeons (full scope and double degree). This dissolution of the specialty would be disasterous in my opinion and I have a hard time believing that AAOMS would stand by and let that happen. But a certain reality remains that there is a growing number of dual degree OMS and dwindling number of single degree OMS. Currently dual degree surgeons are the minority, but what will happen when they become closer to a majority? On the other side of the coin, going back to the tensions 2/2 competitions, is there any reality that the AMA will ever campaign to their medical schools to stop privileging OMS residents to advanced standing to take the USMLE I and essentially skip 2 of the 4 years of med school? This would essentially kill the fast tract to an MD. Any thoughts?
 
With the seemingly growing tensions between dual degree and single degree OMS tracts (ie recent AMA Scope of Practice attack etc) there seems that one day there may come an OMS armageddon/civil war. I have already heard talk about the future generations of OMS splitting into oral surgeons (restricted to dentoalveolar and single degree) and maxillofacial surgeons (full scope and double degree). This dissolution of the specialty would be disasterous in my opinion and I have a hard time believing that AAOMS would stand by and let that happen. But a certain reality remains that there is a growing number of dual degree OMS and dwindling number of single degree OMS. Currently dual degree surgeons are the minority, but what will happen when they become closer to a majority? On the other side of the coin, going back to the tensions 2/2 competitions, is there any reality that the AMA will ever campaign to their medical schools to stop privileging OMS residents to advanced standing to take the USMLE I and essentially skip 2 of the 4 years of med school? This would essentially kill the fast tract to an MD. Any thoughts?

Well, what if we got banned from MD programs all together and had to resort to DO programs. What that limit us to intraoral cervical spine adjustments? I'm don't know about you guys but I am both scared and disturbed. Any thoughts?
 
Isn't this something that pops up every so often and then falls to the wayside? Seems like there will always be some degree of bickering between the fields, medical and dental alike. I find it hard to believe that there will be an "armaggedon" in the near future. From my understanding, aside from the AMA letter not too long ago, single degree surgeons have been receiving less resistance in hospitals...
 
As I have posted before, I think it is a big mistake to move away from our dental backgrounds. These duel degree sxs that may be pushing for the division also advocating that the MD degree should be primary degree and there should be an "abbreviated" Dental School. They also believe OMFS clinics should be in the hospital, not based in the dental school. Again I think this is a big mistake. It is the clinics in the Dental school that gives an immediate patient pool to draw from. The hospital presence is important, but if OMFS move out of dental schools perio will become even more advanced in the DA world. Which raises the question as why even divide the field into DA-->single degree guys and Everything else-->duel degree guys when perio is already the DA guys that are not OMFS? MD OMFS are still OMFS with an MD degree. They are note superior to single degree OMFS. Unless they completed an MD based residency/fellowship program they are still an Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon. Just like Ellis, Marx, Tucker, etc, etc, etc. It is great that the MD guys are the ones advancing the field, publishing, going into academics, but does that make a 4year guys training inferior to theirs? I say no. But it does seem that AAMOS is concerned about the possible division now that the field is nearly 50/50 graduating every year.
 
With the seemingly growing tensions between dual degree and single degree OMS tracts (ie recent AMA Scope of Practice attack etc) there seems that one day there may come an OMS armageddon/civil war. I have already heard talk about the future generations of OMS splitting into oral surgeons (restricted to dentoalveolar and single degree) and maxillofacial surgeons (full scope and double degree). This dissolution of the specialty would be disasterous in my opinion and I have a hard time believing that AAOMS would stand by and let that happen. But a certain reality remains that there is a growing number of dual degree OMS and dwindling number of single degree OMS. Currently dual degree surgeons are the minority, but what will happen when they become closer to a majority? On the other side of the coin, going back to the tensions 2/2 competitions, is there any reality that the AMA will ever campaign to their medical schools to stop privileging OMS residents to advanced standing to take the USMLE I and essentially skip 2 of the 4 years of med school? This would essentially kill the fast tract to an MD. Any thoughts?

Gary "Armageddon was a terrible moive and that Aerosmith song has been played at too many weddings" Ruska here,

GR can see why those aspiring to be an OMFS would be concerned about the current political rumblings - it is only natural to be worried about what, externally, appears to be an uncertain future.

As always, reassurance can be, to some measure, found in history.

Two giants in OMFS come to mind when thinking about this debate (though there are many others): Daniel Laskin and Walter Guralnick.

Dan Laskin has, historically, been a proponent of the single-degree surgeon as full-scope practitioner. Walter Guralnick, who designed the first MD-integrated program, is at the opposite end of the spectrum. Interestingly, Guralnick is giving a keynote address on this very topic at the 2010 AAOMS meeting in Chicago.

When the concept was first introduced in the 1970s, there was significant resistance to the MD-integrated format. OMFS of the time were stating that the dual-degree concept would sever ties with dentistry, lessen OMFS and dental education in the eyes of medical counterparts and, functionally, serve as "armageddon" for the specialty. Sound like anything you've heard recently?

Fast forward 40 years and nothing has changed. Both types of surgeons exist and thrive in their communities. Trainees have a multitude of options for training pathways and flexibility in pursuing career options. There are practices with both single- and degree-surgeons under the same roof, the sun still rises in the East and settles out West.

The strength of OMFS has always been in its dental roots and that's where the $$$$ is. Unless this changes, OMFS will never turn its back on dentistry.

Read for yourself (just a handful of the dozens of articles and letters on the subject, key articles in bold):

1970s:
Guralnick WC. The combined oral surgery-MD program: the Harvard plan. J Oral Surg. 1973 Apr;31(4):271-6.

Hall HD. Current tracks in advanced educational programs in oral surgery. J Oral Surg. 1973 Apr;31(4):260-5.

Hillenbrand H. The past, present, and future status of oral surgery in the United States. J Oral Surg. 1973 Apr;31(4):290-4.

Eisenbud L. An analysis of the potential impact of oral surgery-MD programs. J Oral Surg. 1973 Apr;31(4):277-82.

The double-degree dilemma. J Oral Surg. 1977 May;35(5):347, 430.

Alling CC. Defense of MD option. J Oral Surg. 1977 Aug;35(8):619.

1980s:

Barber HD, Sejud P. Double-degree oral and maxillofacial surgeons: was it worth it? J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1988 Oct;46(10):872-4.

To what degree can we change our future? J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1989 Oct;47(10):1124-6.

The double-degree debate continues. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1989 Oct;47(10):1123-4.

1990s:

Punjabi AP, Haug RH. The development of the dual-degree controversy in oral and maxillofacial surgery. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1990 Jun;48(6):612-6.

Bailey WK. Medical training for oral and maxillofacial surgeons: a resident's perspective. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1990 Jun;48(6):667.

Laskin DM. The MD degree: a panacea or a problem? J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1997 Mar;55(3):209.

Laskin DM. Double degree members and their importance to AAOMS. American Association of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1997
Sep;55(9):911.

Leonard MS. The MD degree: problem or solution? J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1997 Aug;55(8):899-900.

2000s:
Kaban LB, Guralnick WC. Massachusetts General Hospital/Harvard MD Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Program. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 2005 Aug;63(8):1069-72

Dodson TB, Guralnick WC, Donoff RB, Kaban LB. Massachusetts General Hospital/Harvard Medical School MD oral and maxillofacial surgery program: a
30-year review. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 2004 Jan;62(1):62-5.


Herford AS. Integration of the medical degree in oral and maxillofacial surgery: a 10-year follow-up. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 2002 Jul;60(7):844.

Mettner J. To MD or not to MD? Minn Med. 2005 Aug;88(8):8-9.

2010:

Assael LA. The view from the third rail. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 2010 Apr;68(4):713-4.

Take home points:
1. Not a new controversy and certainly not one that hasn't been dissected from every viewpoint.
2. OMFS scope of practice is determined by Dental Practice Acts -- State Dental Associations are powerful entities, often more powerful than their medical counterparts and have been successful at ensuring that ALL OMFS have the same practice privileges. The last time this debate ramped up was in response to a NYTimes article on OMFS doing cosmetic surgery.
3. Many will maintain that the MD does add some degree of security. GR would just point out the following: if everyone in OMFS had a medical degree, PRS/ENT would still try to limit scope of practice, just via a different mechanism (e.g. Board Certification by an ABMS-certified board). If OMFS became a member of the ABMS, they would try something else - do not underestimate one's creativity when their livelihood is threatened.
4. PRS/ENT look at OMFS the way that OMFS look at perio. Think about that the next time you rag on a periodontist for taking out thirds.
 
Last edited:
why do you always refer to yourself in the third person??

Gary "Armageddon was a terrible moive and that Aerosmith song has been played at too many weddings" Ruska here,

GR can see why those aspiring to be an OMFS would be concerned about the current political rumblings - it is only natural to be worried about what, externally, appears to be an uncertain future.

As always, reassurance can be, to some measure, found in history.

Two giants in OMFS come to mind when thinking about this debate (though there are many others): Daniel Laskin and Walter Guralnick.

Dan Laskin has, historically, been a proponent of the single-degree surgeon as full-scope practitioner. Walter Guralnick, who designed the first MD-integrated program, is at the opposite end of the spectrum. Interestingly, Guralnick is giving a keynote address on this very topic at the 2010 AAOMS meeting in Chicago.

When the concept was first introduced in the 1970s, there was significant resistance to the MD-integrated format. OMFS of the time were stating that the dual-degree concept would sever ties with dentistry, lessen OMFS and dental education in the eyes of medical counterparts and, functionally, serve as "armageddon" for the specialty. Sound like anything you've heard recently?

Fast forward 40 years and nothing has changed. Both types of surgeons exist and thrive in their communities. Trainees have a multitude of options for training pathways and flexibility in pursuing career options. There are practices with both single- and degree-surgeons under the same roof, the sun still rises in the East and settles out West.

The strength of OMFS has always been in its dental roots and that's where the $$$$ is. Unless this changes, OMFS will never turn its back on dentistry.

Read for yourself (just a handful of the dozens of articles and letters on the subject, key articles in bold):

1970s:
Guralnick WC. The combined oral surgery-MD program: the Harvard plan. J Oral Surg. 1973 Apr;31(4):271-6.

Hall HD. Current tracks in advanced educational programs in oral surgery. J Oral Surg. 1973 Apr;31(4):260-5.

Hillenbrand H. The past, present, and future status of oral surgery in the United States. J Oral Surg. 1973 Apr;31(4):290-4.

Eisenbud L. An analysis of the potential impact of oral surgery-MD programs. J Oral Surg. 1973 Apr;31(4):277-82.

The double-degree dilemma. J Oral Surg. 1977 May;35(5):347, 430.

Alling CC. Defense of MD option. J Oral Surg. 1977 Aug;35(8):619.

1980s:

Barber HD, Sejud P. Double-degree oral and maxillofacial surgeons: was it worth it? J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1988 Oct;46(10):872-4.

To what degree can we change our future? J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1989 Oct;47(10):1124-6.

The double-degree debate continues. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1989 Oct;47(10):1123-4.

1990s:

Punjabi AP, Haug RH. The development of the dual-degree controversy in oral and maxillofacial surgery. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1990 Jun;48(6):612-6.

Bailey WK. Medical training for oral and maxillofacial surgeons: a resident's perspective. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1990 Jun;48(6):667.

Laskin DM. The MD degree: a panacea or a problem? J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1997 Mar;55(3):209.

Laskin DM. Double degree members and their importance to AAOMS. American Association of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1997
Sep;55(9):911.

Leonard MS. The MD degree: problem or solution? J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1997 Aug;55(8):899-900.

2000s:
Kaban LB, Guralnick WC. Massachusetts General Hospital/Harvard MD Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Program. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 2005 Aug;63(8):1069-72

Dodson TB, Guralnick WC, Donoff RB, Kaban LB. Massachusetts General Hospital/Harvard Medical School MD oral and maxillofacial surgery program: a
30-year review. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 2004 Jan;62(1):62-5.


Herford AS. Integration of the medical degree in oral and maxillofacial surgery: a 10-year follow-up. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 2002 Jul;60(7):844.

Mettner J. To MD or not to MD? Minn Med. 2005 Aug;88(8):8-9.

2010:

Assael LA. The view from the third rail. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 2010 Apr;68(4):713-4.

Take home points:
1. Not a new controversy and certainly not one that hasn't been dissected from every viewpoint.
2. OMFS scope of practice is determined by Dental Practice Acts -- State Dental Associations are powerful entities, often more powerful than their medical counterparts and have been successful at ensuring that ALL OMFS have the same practice privileges. The last time this debate ramped up was in response to a NYTimes article on OMFS doing cosmetic surgery.
3. Many will maintain that the MD does add some degree of security. GR would just point out the following: if everyone in OMFS had a medical degree, PRS/ENT would still try to limit scope of practice, just via a different mechanism (e.g. Board Certification by an ABMS-certified board). If OMFS became a member of the ABMS, they would try something else - do not underestimate one's creativity when their livelihood is threatened.
4. PRS/ENT look at OMFS the way that OMFS look at perio. Think about that the next time you rag on a periodontist for taking out thirds.
 
Gary "Armageddon was a terrible moive and that Aerosmith song has been played at too many weddings" Ruska here,


4. PRS/ENT look at OMFS the way that OMFS look at perio. Think about that the next time you rag on a periodontist for taking out thirds.

GR is the man!

In terms of order of life/hierarchy of the specialties, I propose the following order:

PRS/ENT = Cardiologist/Gastroenterologist > OMFS > ophtho =radiologist > Internist/Anesthesiologist > perio

Now in terms of sexiness of the specialties, how about

PRS/ENT > cardio > OMFS = Orthodontist = ophtho > Internist/gas men > perio

OMFS guys get it good cuz it's at least a surgical specialty. And ortho people got the sexy factor from $$$.

Please enlighten me GARY RUSKA!!
 
GR is the man!

In terms of order of life/hierarchy of the specialties, I propose the following order:

PRS/ENT = Cardiologist/Gastroenterologist > OMFS > ophtho =radiologist > Internist/Anesthesiologist > perio

Now in terms of sexiness of the specialties, how about

PRS/ENT > cardio > OMFS = Orthodontist = ophtho > Internist/gas men > perio

OMFS guys get it good cuz it's at least a surgical specialty. And ortho people got the sexy factor from $$$.

Please enlighten me GARY RUSKA!!

How did Cardio and GI, etc got in the picture??????? and if anything, anesthesia is way more prestigious and respected than internal...
 
so Gary, distill for us the conclusions that those articles have come to in the past 20 years (i'd read them but i don't have a membership with any of those journals). will there be a DDS/MD OMFS res in the next 10 years?
 
so Gary, distill for us the conclusions that those articles have come to in the past 20 years (i'd read them but i don't have a membership with any of those journals). will there be a DDS/MD OMFS res in the next 10 years?

Not GR but both 4 and 6 year tracks will be around for probably the next 15-20 years. By then, all of the academic leaders will have MD's and training programs will convert to MD integrated one by one until MD integrated is the only option. Book it.
 
Not GR but both 4 and 6 year tracks will be around for probably the next 15-20 years. By then, all of the academic leaders will have MD's and training programs will convert to MD integrated one by one until MD integrated is the only option. Book it.

Tough to call - I'd agree with the above, but would add that this change would surely require AAOMS and the ABOMS to be on board, which may take longer, as the powers that be in those groups are overwhelmingly single-degree.

Also don't discount the possibility that the specialty may fracture into oral surgery (4-year) and maxillofacial surgery (6-year). I think this is as likely as a uniform training pathway.

I think when the split happened in Europe, single-degree guys were grandfathered in as maxillofacial surgeons, but everyone training after the split was required to have an MD (or MBBS, MBBCh) to be certified as a maxillofacial surgeon.
 
GR is the man!

In terms of order of life/hierarchy of the specialties, I propose the following order:

PRS/ENT = Cardiologist/Gastroenterologist > OMFS > ophtho =radiologist > Internist/Anesthesiologist > perio

Now in terms of sexiness of the specialties, how about

PRS/ENT > cardio > OMFS = Orthodontist = ophtho > Internist/gas men > perio

OMFS guys get it good cuz it's at least a surgical specialty. And ortho people got the sexy factor from $$$.

Please enlighten me GARY RUSKA!!

Yeah, so this makes absolutely no sense.

Prestige is in the eye of the beholder - what the public thinks as prestigious, the medical community may not, and vice versa.

In terms of income and lifestyle, this is also widely variable. There are plastic surgeons who make 200k (though the public thinks that every plastic surgeon is a millionaire) and there are anesthesiologists who make in the high six figures. I don't know where you're getting your info, but most plastic surgeons have not-so-great lifestyles. They are constantly in demand by hospitals to take hand/face/butt ulcer call and certainly work more hours than many other specialties (derm, ophtho).
 
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