EM Pain Fellowship vs CC? Kind of want out of EM. Any advice?

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D McF

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Hey guys,

I'm reaching out for a little help and advice. I'm in a pretty rough place personally/emotionally and am not sure that I can do 20-30 years of EM.

A little about me:

I'm a pgy2 at a very good 3 year EM program. I had great board scores (245+ step 1/2), grades (3.6 H/HP/P), and was top 1/4 of my class. I'm a US MD from the standard state school. My medical school interests included orthopedics and pain management. I initially felt emergency medicine was a great crossroads field and would allow me to do a little of everything I enjoyed. In ortho, I enjoyed the reductions and non-operative management of acute fractures. I liked, but didn't love the OR. My personal hell was a day in the OR doing 4 TKA's. I really liked the chronic pain patients because many had very complex anatomic causes of their pain. I enjoyed the instant gratification of nerve blocks and injections and watching people walk out of the office.

I really loved EM at first. I loved the crashing patient and doing procedures (dropping lines, chest tubes, and so on). In reflection, I found that I was "protected" from the "bad learning" BS cases that we see day-to-day, so my patient population and acuity expectations may have been incorrect.

After 1.5 years I've grown to find EM very fatiguing. I'm struggling with our breath of knowledge and having the patience to deal with our patient population. I also wish I was doing more procedures. I often drive home from a shift wondering If I've done anything to help anyone that day. I really enjoy managing the crashing patient, but am less interested in the non-sick patient (and despise ped's).

If I could have done it over, I probably would have just done ortho. But its probably not realistic to do another residency and have lost of my contacts and recommendations from med school.

Long story short: I love crashing sick patients and dislike the primary care stuff. I love procedures, but often feel too busy to do them in the ED. I feel like I'm not having an impact on people. I'm struggling with the breath of our field and wish to narrow the knowledge that I'm responsible for. I'm also not dealing well with the constant distractions on shift. Looking for a way out.

Is it viable to view critical care and pain management as a possible road out? I've been reading a lot about neuro-CC and think It could be a very fulfilling career. I've currently trying to gear up my application to be competitive for either. Still doing some personal exploration prior to committing to either.

So far, everyone that I have talked to about this has been less than understanding and have brought up the "your not gonna quit are you?" line. Trying to have a better plan before meeting with the PD to discuss.

My questions for you guys:

1) Has anyone completed the CC or Pain management fellowship and transitioned their careers into predominantly CC/Pain?

I know I'll probably make less $$ and lose a lot on opportunity cost, but I think i'll personally feel more fulfilled.

I was advised to consider working in the community for a few years to see if my mind changes, but am wondering if it will just hinder my application and would lose out of LOR's. I also think it would be hard to turn down 300+K to go back to fellow salary.

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A better question would be, "what programs take EM grads for pain?" Sure, some do, but is there a list anywhere? can't be many.
 
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Move to an area near a ski resort (or fly to one to work) and you will do reductions all day every day. Pay won’t be amazing but holy crap those jobs are awesome. C arms in the hallway waiting to see your bonified masterpiece.
 
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Being a pgy2 just kind of sucks. You’re expected to do a lot but you’re not competent yet.

I do CCM. It’s good, but still tough. Pay is good. Easy to do 100% CCM.

Don’t make any rash decisions.
 
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Hey guys,

I'm reaching out for a little help and advice. I'm in a pretty rough place personally/emotionally and am not sure that I can do 20-30 years of EM.

A little about me:

I'm a pgy2 at a very good 3 year EM program. I had great board scores (245+ step 1/2), grades (3.6 H/HP/P), and was top 1/4 of my class. I'm a US MD from the standard state school. My medical school interests included orthopedics and pain management. I initially felt emergency medicine was a great crossroads field and would allow me to do a little of everything I enjoyed. In ortho, I enjoyed the reductions and non-operative management of acute fractures. I liked, but didn't love the OR. My personal hell was a day in the OR doing 4 TKA's. I really liked the chronic pain patients because many had very complex anatomic causes of their pain. I enjoyed the instant gratification of nerve blocks and injections and watching people walk out of the office.

I really loved EM at first. I loved the crashing patient and doing procedures (dropping lines, chest tubes, and so on). In reflection, I found that I was "protected" from the "bad learning" BS cases that we see day-to-day, so my patient population and acuity expectations may have been incorrect.

After 1.5 years I've grown to find EM very fatiguing. I'm struggling with our breath of knowledge and having the patience to deal with our patient population. I also wish I was doing more procedures. I often drive home from a shift wondering If I've done anything to help anyone that day. I really enjoy managing the crashing patient, but am less interested in the non-sick patient (and despise ped's).

If I could have done it over, I probably would have just done ortho. But its probably not realistic to do another residency and have lost of my contacts and recommendations from med school.

Long story short: I love crashing sick patients and dislike the primary care stuff. I love procedures, but often feel too busy to do them in the ED. I feel like I'm not having an impact on people. I'm struggling with the breath of our field and wish to narrow the knowledge that I'm responsible for. I'm also not dealing well with the constant distractions on shift. Looking for a way out.

Is it viable to view critical care and pain management as a possible road out? I've been reading a lot about neuro-CC and think It could be a very fulfilling career. I've currently trying to gear up my application to be competitive for either. Still doing some personal exploration prior to committing to either.

So far, everyone that I have talked to about this has been less than understanding and have brought up the "your not gonna quit are you?" line. Trying to have a better plan before meeting with the PD to discuss.

My questions for you guys:

1) Has anyone completed the CC or Pain management fellowship and transitioned their careers into predominantly CC/Pain?

I know I'll probably make less $$ and lose a lot on opportunity cost, but I think i'll personally feel more fulfilled.

I was advised to consider working in the community for a few years to see if my mind changes, but am wondering if it will just hinder my application and would lose out of LOR's. I also think it would be hard to turn down 300+K to go back to fellow salary.


First of all, let me start by saying that your feelings are totally valid. It is very possible that switching specialties is the right option for you. However, I'd encourage you to consider how much of what you are feeling is just residency grinding you down? Lots of thing become A LOT less annoying once you are done with residency, and you are half way there.

I'm struggling with our breath of knowledge.
This definitely gets better with time. While EM is very broad, and there are lots of new things to learn all the time (as in any medical specialty), you will very soon get to the point where you are comfortable with all the bread and butter stuff. Practice changing updates happen, but not so often that you wouldn't be able to keep up by listening to EM:RAP and going to a good CME conference once a year, if that's all you wanted to do. It may seem impossible, but I promise somewhere between your PGY3 and first couple of years as an attending you will notice that your learning is really mostly about honing the stuff you know rather than about learning completely new things all the time.

...and having the patience to deal with our patient population.
This gets a lot less annoying once you are done with residency. A lot of the stress of the BS cases and annoying patient as a resident is that you have to balance managing the patient and managing your attending. Like if a patient demands something unreasonable you are never quite sure whether you can do what you think is right at the moment because you have to guess whether your attending would find that acceptable. Once you are done, you do what you want. Want to just give the meds to the drug seeker? You can do that. Want to kick a patient out? You can do that too. Don't want to work up that clearly BS complaint? Discharge them if you want. Don't want to call a stupid consult? Don't. You might not change your practice that much from whatever you do now, but knowing that you are free to do whatever you want frees up so much mental energy, it's night and day.

I also wish I was doing more procedures.
You can if you want once you are done. Right now you have attendings pushing you to see more patients rather than get stuck in procedures, but that's a choice you will be able to make once you are done. Even if you don't end up deciding to work in the community, you can just decide to do procedures yourself rather than consult.

I often drive home from a shift wondering If I've done anything to help anyone that day.
I have a suspicion that's true of most physicians. But honestly, I think as EM docs we have a tremendous opportunity to help people. Probably more than most other specialties. There is the sometimes over used trope of 'saving lives', and while it's true that it doesn't happen that often, it probably happens in the ER a lot more than anywhere else. Also, in terms of helping people, you learn that its often not about changing the disease course. Sometimes its being in the moment with the family of the cardiac arrest patient you did not manage to resuscitate and grieving with them for a few minutes. Or specifically avoiding doing lots of tests and an admission on a patient you know it was unnecessary on. Sometimes its picking up a subtle diagnosis in a patient that would normally be brushed off. Or just reducing a nurse maid's elbow.

I really enjoy managing the crashing patient, but am less interested in the non-sick patient.
I think that's true for a lot of EM docs. You don't have to be more interested in the non-sick. But they will be easier to manage once you are done with residency.

...and despise ped's.
If you want, you can take a job that doesn't see any peds. Those kinds of things are more common in academia. Although I suspect, as with a lot of ER docs, you don't hate peds as much as you hate pediatricians :)
 
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I'm a little bit confused... Wouldn't doing pain medicine mean dealing with the worst of the worst patients that we routinely see in the ED?

I'm a PGY-2 resident as well, and I have to admit I have often shared your similar sentiments. I was between a surgical specialty and switched into EM at the last possible moment in medical school. Most of my second year has been spent feeling fatigued, frustrated, feeling like I am drowning in bureaucracy as opposed to actually taking care of patients. At my program, the second year EM resident is trained to "move the meat" and manage the pod. I feel like I care more about dispos that I care about the patient and addressing their concerns. It's mentally and physically exhausting.

When the pod is blowing up and you are expected to see as many patients as possible (some of whom are critically ill) it becomes very easy to start farming out procedures to consultants because you simply do not have time. For instance, one of the reasons I was drawn to EM was because I was in love with doing lac repairs. There's few things in medicine better than approximating a bad lac and seeing it all come together. When your triage nurse is slotting in 6 new patients at once (including 3 chest pains, a vaginal bleeder, a shoulder dislocation and a someone withdrawing from heroin) all of a sudden that laceration seems a bit more complicated. Even though I have told my attendings at times that I will get to that lac repair once I lay eyes on all the other patients, they often times want you to just call the plastics consultant to take care of it, especially when you are a major academic medical center like me and your consultants are an arms reach away. This is not only bad training, dumps on our consultants, but it takes away the satisfaction you get from actually doing something for a patient and making a difference.

From talking with the recent grads at my program, this changes immensely once you get out into practice. You are doing everything on your own. While sometimes it's scary not having an attending to back you up, it can be really liberating to be able to practice on your own. I swear, sometimes battling with the attending is the toughest part of my shift. Their plans/goals never sync with mine. They always make me waste time calling stupid consults instead of letting me actually handle it on my own (which would be faster sometimes). It's just how it goes.

CCM is a fantastic specialty, one in which EM is finally now having a seat at the table. My institution has a pretty big EM-CCM presence, however, I can tell you that our ICU is not all about crashing patients, resuscitations and so forth. Most of the ICU patients need long term management of their critically ill conditions, and often time there isn't much immediate gratification. Patients die due to their physiology despite all the stuff we do to them, whether its ECMO or whatever. I know many intensivists who feel like they "don't do anything" for their patients (which is obviously completely false, but the perceived notion still exists in CCM as well). That being said, intensivists still get great procedural experience and are arguably some of the smartest docs in the hospital. However I would caution you to go into CCM just because you want out of EM. Rather I would choose it because you love the management of critically ill patients in the inpatient setting.

TLDR: residency sucks for everyone. attending life is probably better. CCM is great, but do it because you love it.
 
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Buckle down, finish residency, get your boards and practice for a couple of years before making any rash decisions. It's almost impossible to see anything clearly within the microcosm of residency. EM (and life in general for that matter) is drastically different once you are out and on your own. I still get the occasional "grass is greener" moments but in general would not go back and change a thing. I do remember feeling burned out my last couple of years in training but honestly...that's pretty normal.

If you think CCM is going to vastly improve your lifestyle, you are wrong.
 
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I'm a little bit confused... Wouldn't doing pain medicine mean dealing with the worst of the worst patients that we routinely see in the ED?
Not usually. Most interventional pain folks don't Rx narcs and make that clear from the initial visit.

You're thinking of pill mills.
 
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Hey guys,

I'm reaching out for a little help and advice. I'm in a pretty rough place personally/emotionally and am not sure that I can do 20-30 years of EM.

If it helps, I was convinced by PGY-2 that I would just work at an urgent care since EM was too grueling. Halfway through residency, I had thoughts about quitting.

Now, about 3-4 years out of residency, my burn out levels have subsided and I'm fairly happy with my work. I now laugh at the idea of working at urgent care.

I think it is important to select your post-residency job carefully. Figure out what factors are important to you. In my case, I chose slightly less pay for a better overall work environment. I don't regret it even one percent.

After 1.5 years I've grown to find EM very fatiguing. I'm struggling with our breath of knowledge and having the patience to deal with our patient population.

As for the breath of knowledge, I also felt this way... But, I'm about to take my boards this week and I will tell you that 3-4 years out of residency, I feel pretty confident about my knowledge base. It takes time though. I think I was slow in learning some things, but it was sooooo much easier now then back in residency, since I had already worked as an attending. Sure, there are the tox and environmental questions, which we don't really see that often at work, but even that became easier due to having bashed my head over it so many times. And then of course there are still things I refuse to learn/memorize, and I don't care about them.

Really, First Aid for EM Boards has all the core information we need. It's just one small book... That's not THAT much to know, if you consider how much you had to learn for Steps 1 and 2.

I also wish I was doing more procedures.

I hate procedures, except for intubation and central line placement in a very sick patient. I especially hate laceration repairs. I suspect you may hate procedures as an attending as well, due to how time consuming they are.

I often drive home from a shift wondering If I've done anything to help anyone that day.

I don't any more. I realize that I save lives. At least a couple per shift. That's enough for me to feel valuable. Saving a couple lives per day? From the jaws of death? Who can say that about their jobs?

Just the other day I took care of a very complex patient who had acute respiratory distress/failure, and my quick management saved him from intubation. And, I know if any of the non-EM trained docs in my group had taken care of this patient, he would have been intubated. So yeah, that's a rewarding feeling. Trust me, when you emerge as an EM-trained doctor, you are a valuable resource for the community you serve. This will be less apparent to you at a hospital where all the doctors are EM-trained. But, I work at one hospital where it's a lot of older docs who aren't EM-trained... and I am a super star compared to them. It feels good.

I really enjoy managing the crashing patient, but am less interested in the non-sick patient (and despise ped's).

As for peds, you can work somewhere where you see almost no peds. In fact, this is the case for many hospitals next to children's hospitals.

I also used to hate peds, but I see so few of them and most of them are not sick at all. Now, I like taking care of them, because you can make funny faces at them, play with them, etc. It's a hoot.

A kid comes in with croup....parents are freaked out... You come, hit 'em with one dose of Decadron... And you're the man. Feels good.

Long story short: I love crashing sick patients and dislike the primary care stuff. I love procedures, but often feel too busy to do them in the ED. I feel like I'm not having an impact on people. I'm struggling with the breath of our field and wish to narrow the knowledge that I'm responsible for. I'm also not dealing well with the constant distractions on shift. Looking for a way out.

Hmmmm... This is admittedly a pretty good summary of the reasons to go into something like Ortho or a sub-specialty of some sort.

So far, everyone that I have talked to about this has been less than understanding and have brought up the "your not gonna quit are you?" line. Trying to have a better plan before meeting with the PD to discuss.

Whatever you do, don't discuss any of this with your program or PD. Outsource this emotional angst you are having. Nobody wants to lose a resident. You know what that does that to the schedule? That's probably why they respond that way.

I was advised to consider working in the community for a few years to see if my mind changes, but am wondering if it will just hinder my application and would lose out of LOR's. I also think it would be hard to turn down 300+K to go back to fellow salary.

Agreed.
 
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Hey guys,

I'm reaching out for a little help and advice. I'm in a pretty rough place personally/emotionally and am not sure that I can do 20-30 years of EM.

A little about me:

I'm a pgy2 at a very good 3 year EM program. I had great board scores (245+ step 1/2), grades (3.6 H/HP/P), and was top 1/4 of my class. I'm a US MD from the standard state school. My medical school interests included orthopedics and pain management. I initially felt emergency medicine was a great crossroads field and would allow me to do a little of everything I enjoyed. In ortho, I enjoyed the reductions and non-operative management of acute fractures. I liked, but didn't love the OR. My personal hell was a day in the OR doing 4 TKA's. I really liked the chronic pain patients because many had very complex anatomic causes of their pain. I enjoyed the instant gratification of nerve blocks and injections and watching people walk out of the office.

I really loved EM at first. I loved the crashing patient and doing procedures (dropping lines, chest tubes, and so on). In reflection, I found that I was "protected" from the "bad learning" BS cases that we see day-to-day, so my patient population and acuity expectations may have been incorrect.

After 1.5 years I've grown to find EM very fatiguing. I'm struggling with our breath of knowledge and having the patience to deal with our patient population. I also wish I was doing more procedures. I often drive home from a shift wondering If I've done anything to help anyone that day. I really enjoy managing the crashing patient, but am less interested in the non-sick patient (and despise ped's).

If I could have done it over, I probably would have just done ortho. But its probably not realistic to do another residency and have lost of my contacts and recommendations from med school.

Long story short: I love crashing sick patients and dislike the primary care stuff. I love procedures, but often feel too busy to do them in the ED. I feel like I'm not having an impact on people. I'm struggling with the breath of our field and wish to narrow the knowledge that I'm responsible for. I'm also not dealing well with the constant distractions on shift. Looking for a way out.

Is it viable to view critical care and pain management as a possible road out? I've been reading a lot about neuro-CC and think It could be a very fulfilling career. I've currently trying to gear up my application to be competitive for either. Still doing some personal exploration prior to committing to either.

So far, everyone that I have talked to about this has been less than understanding and have brought up the "your not gonna quit are you?" line. Trying to have a better plan before meeting with the PD to discuss.

My questions for you guys:

1) Has anyone completed the CC or Pain management fellowship and transitioned their careers into predominantly CC/Pain?

I know I'll probably make less $$ and lose a lot on opportunity cost, but I think i'll personally feel more fulfilled.

I was advised to consider working in the community for a few years to see if my mind changes, but am wondering if it will just hinder my application and would lose out of LOR's. I also think it would be hard to turn down 300+K to go back to fellow salary.

I was never more burned out than I was as a PGY-2. I shared a lot of your same concerns/struggles. I opted to press on and just do EM, mostly because I felt that my beef was with medicine in general and not the ER, and I felt that more training would just make me more jaded. I'm in my first year of attending, and I can say I'm much more happy, but a lot of those same concerns still haunt me. A lot of the patients are a drag, some days you go home feeling like you didn't really do all that much, and the fatigue of working swing and night shifts is still there.

That being said, I don't know if I'd do those fellowships unless there was a true interest. As far as CC goes, I have a few friends who did EM-CC and work solely in the ICU. It's a grueling gig because you are still going to be working nights and shift work, but the plus side is that you take away a lot of the malingerers and primary care stuff, add in a few more procedures on the average shift.
 
you should post on pain forum. There is a pain doc who frequently posts who did EM first then got a fellowship
 
I can confidently say that a CCM fellowship is NOT a recipe to fix burnout. Working 80h/week making a fellow salary taking care of dying people is tough to do.
 
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I'd echo the same advice. PGY-2 is kind of where things turn and get tougher. PGY-1 is definitely shielded at least from my experience. I do pure CCM and I love it. I looked hard for a combined gig, but in the private world it's not too common (I do moonlight from time to time). I'm sure it'll be more common by the time you're out, but I think it's a work in progress. The issue is you have to be pretty committed by PGY-3 to get your application and interviews going. It's a lot of time and money and you can interview and see if you like the idea of it by the time you're PGY-3.
 
Hey guys,

I'm reaching out for a little help and advice. I'm in a pretty rough place personally/emotionally and am not sure that I can do 20-30 years of EM.

A little about me:

I'm a pgy2 at a very good 3 year EM program. I had great board scores (245+ step 1/2), grades (3.6 H/HP/P), and was top 1/4 of my class. I'm a US MD from the standard state school. My medical school interests included orthopedics and pain management. I initially felt emergency medicine was a great crossroads field and would allow me to do a little of everything I enjoyed. In ortho, I enjoyed the reductions and non-operative management of acute fractures. I liked, but didn't love the OR. My personal hell was a day in the OR doing 4 TKA's. I really liked the chronic pain patients because many had very complex anatomic causes of their pain. I enjoyed the instant gratification of nerve blocks and injections and watching people walk out of the office.

I really loved EM at first. I loved the crashing patient and doing procedures (dropping lines, chest tubes, and so on). In reflection, I found that I was "protected" from the "bad learning" BS cases that we see day-to-day, so my patient population and acuity expectations may have been incorrect.

After 1.5 years I've grown to find EM very fatiguing. I'm struggling with our breath of knowledge and having the patience to deal with our patient population. I also wish I was doing more procedures. I often drive home from a shift wondering If I've done anything to help anyone that day. I really enjoy managing the crashing patient, but am less interested in the non-sick patient (and despise ped's).

If I could have done it over, I probably would have just done ortho. But its probably not realistic to do another residency and have lost of my contacts and recommendations from med school.

Long story short: I love crashing sick patients and dislike the primary care stuff. I love procedures, but often feel too busy to do them in the ED. I feel like I'm not having an impact on people. I'm struggling with the breath of our field and wish to narrow the knowledge that I'm responsible for. I'm also not dealing well with the constant distractions on shift. Looking for a way out.

Is it viable to view critical care and pain management as a possible road out? I've been reading a lot about neuro-CC and think It could be a very fulfilling career. I've currently trying to gear up my application to be competitive for either. Still doing some personal exploration prior to committing to either.

So far, everyone that I have talked to about this has been less than understanding and have brought up the "your not gonna quit are you?" line. Trying to have a better plan before meeting with the PD to discuss.

My questions for you guys:

1) Has anyone completed the CC or Pain management fellowship and transitioned their careers into predominantly CC/Pain?

I know I'll probably make less $$ and lose a lot on opportunity cost, but I think i'll personally feel more fulfilled.

I was advised to consider working in the community for a few years to see if my mind changes, but am wondering if it will just hinder my application and would lose out of LOR's. I also think it would be hard to turn down 300+K to go back to fellow salary.

I got burned out on EM after a few years out in the community, and went back and did an accredited Pain fellowship. Now I'm double boarded in EM and Pain, but recently, I've been doing 100% Pain. I focus on the fun stuff, the procedures and prescribe as few opiates as possible. I have 4 spinal cord stimulators coming up in the next 7 days, have a kyphoplasty going on the schedule soon, do lots of cervical and lumbar epidural steroid injections, nerve blocks, nerve ablations, joint injections, and others. 2 days of the week I do only procedures, and clinic, 2.5 days. Admittedly, clinic days are more boring than EM shifts, but I write as few opiates as possible, only low-moderate dose, start no one (who's not dying of cancer) on them if not already on them, screen people to the hilt, and I don't hesitate to stop opiates or discharge people if needed. I have no problem saying "No" when I need to (if you have trouble saying, "No" to people who shouldn't be on opiates, you should NOT go into Pain). I could write a whole thread on how I limit the opiate prescribing, but I wont bore you the details. Bottom line: In my office, where I'm in control, with no EMTALA, no hospital CEO and no Press Ganey to worry about, I just do what's right. If a script is the right thing to do, I write it. If it's not, I don't. If they need to be told no, I say no. If they need to be discharged, I discharge them. I even screen new referrals, and if they look like inappropriate dumps, I don't accept them. But I don't fight people about opiates and I don't worry about the complaints that will come from saying, "No. I don't recommend opiates for you. I recommend maximizing non-opiate treatment options." There are 10 other legitimate Pain MDs (and a couple not so legitimate) that patients can go to, if they don't like my recommendations. The end result it, the problematic people go elsewhere, and I've ended up with a geriatrics-heavy practice, where a lot of may patients aren't even on opiates at all, or if so, very low dose.

Something worth noting, is that people in the ED think of "Pain Management" as "spending all day seeing ED patients that complain of chronic pain." That's not what it is. A good number of those people are not accepted to, or have been kicked out of a Pain practice. So the Pain MD isn't seeing them. But you will in the ED, while being concurrently responsible for much more severe and emergency issues.

EM was great for a while, while I was in my 20's and 30's, and I'm glad I did it for 10 years, but the schedule and pace wasn't going to work for me, for a 30 year career. I do miss the variety of EM, but the new challenge, cool procedures, ability to make my own schedule, never work nights weekends or holidays with Derm hours, is frankly, worth everything. My stress is 90% less compared to when I worked a busy EM schedule and I'm a much happier, more positive person. (Notice I haven't written too many 1500 word, haunting-ED encounter posts in the past couple of years, like I used to?) I did have a great (albeit tough) 10 years in EDs and I wouldn't change it for the world. But Pain has worked out great for this phase of my life, and feel I can do it as long as I need to if not longer. Plus, with the climate swinging more towards an anti-opiate stance nationally, currently, and into the near future, I think it's a great time to look into going into Pain, if you have the interest.

Admittedly, it's not for everyone. I suspect 95% or greater of EPs would never consider doing it, but it's worth checking out if you have any interest. The way to view it, is that doing a Pain fellowship coming from and EM background, is not either/or. You're not replacing your specialty, you're adding a specialty, and you can choose to do as much EM or Pain as you want, or both. The fellowship is only 1 year, and to go from having one to two specialties after only one year, is an amazing opportunity. If you do go into it, just do it with the mindset that you're going to do prescribe as few opiates as possible (preferably none, if you can find an intervention-only job, hard to find but not impossible), focus on the procedures and view it from the standpoint that you're not leaving EM, or changing specialties, but simply adding another skill set. If you then decide you like it and want to do it 100%, you can. If not, or if you like mixing the two, you can look for that opportunity as either an academic center where double boarded people are valued, at a multi-specialty job setting that has both specialties or make your own job.

In EM, I got to the point where I felt burned out, more often than not. Now, I almost never (if ever?) feel burned out. Simply feeling well rested all the time is reason enough alone, but the work is much less stressful, too. And since I've maintained my EM Boards, I could go back to EM full time (or part time) tomorrow, and could have at any time along this journey. And I haven't.

Whether it'll work for you, or not, I don't know. But doing a Pain fellowship has worked for me. But if you do apply, apply to every single program to improve your chances, as Pain is extremely competitive with the Anesthesiology & PMR people who understand it better. It's definitely worth considering if you can get a spot. The place I got accepted at, and went to, got 150 applications for 5 spots, interviewed 50, and I got one. It changed my life for the better.

Private message me if you have any other questions.
 
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I'm a little bit confused... Wouldn't doing pain medicine mean dealing with the worst of the worst patients that we routinely see in the ED?
No. They're in the ED because the Pain MD's won't see them. Very common misconception about Pain. These are your patient's, not a Pain MDs patients. That's why they're in your office, not mine.
 
Oh, look, such good timing. Happy Tuesday!




November 7, 2017
Effect of a Single Dose of Oral Opioid and Nonopioid Analgesics on Acute Extremity Pain in the Emergency DepartmentA Randomized Clinical Trial
Andrew K. Chang, MD, MS1; Polly E. Bijur, PhD2; David Esses, MD2; Douglas P. Barnaby, MD, MS2; Jesse Baer, MD2
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Key Points
Question Do any of 4 oral combination analgesics (3 with different opioids and 1 opioid-free) provide more effective reduction of moderate to severe acute extremity pain in the emergency department (ED)?

Findings In this randomized clinical trial of 411 ED patients with acute extremity pain (mean score, 8.7 on the 11-point numerical rating scale), there was no significant difference in pain reduction at 2 hours. Mean pain scores decreased by 4.3 with ibuprofen and acetaminophen (paracetamol); 4.4 with oxycodone and acetaminophen; 3.5 with hydrocodone and acetaminophen; and 3.9 with codeine and acetaminophen.

Meaning For adult ED patients with acute extremity pain, there were no clinically important differences in pain reduction at 2 hours with ibuprofen and acetaminophen or 3 different opioid and acetaminophen combination analgesics.
 
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Oh, look, such good timing. Happy Tuesday!




November 7, 2017
Effect of a Single Dose of Oral Opioid and Nonopioid Analgesics on Acute Extremity Pain in the Emergency DepartmentA Randomized Clinical Trial
Andrew K. Chang, MD, MS1; Polly E. Bijur, PhD2; David Esses, MD2; Douglas P. Barnaby, MD, MS2; Jesse Baer, MD2
editorial comment icon
Editorial
Comment

FullText
Key Points
Question Do any of 4 oral combination analgesics (3 with different opioids and 1 opioid-free) provide more effective reduction of moderate to severe acute extremity pain in the emergency department (ED)?

Findings In this randomized clinical trial of 411 ED patients with acute extremity pain (mean score, 8.7 on the 11-point numerical rating scale), there was no significant difference in pain reduction at 2 hours. Mean pain scores decreased by 4.3 with ibuprofen and acetaminophen (paracetamol); 4.4 with oxycodone and acetaminophen; 3.5 with hydrocodone and acetaminophen; and 3.9 with codeine and acetaminophen.

Meaning For adult ED patients with acute extremity pain, there were no clinically important differences in pain reduction at 2 hours with ibuprofen and acetaminophen or 3 different opioid and acetaminophen combination analgesics.

Very hard to believe.
 
No. They're in the ED because the Pain MD's won't see them. Very common misconception about Pain. These are your patient's, not a Pain MDs patients. That's why they're in your office, not mine.

You call it my office. How kind of you. Lol.
 
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I would read that.

Okay, you asked for it. Here's the condensed version. This does not apply to cancer patients or to patients that are getting non-opiate treatments like injections, which is a large part of my practice. And much of it is done by my staff, before I ever see the patient. This post is about what makes prescribing opiates to (some) chronic pain patients tolerable in the private Pain practice setting as opposed to being intolerable in the ED. And yes, this does apply to EM and should be here on SDN-EM. This is by an EP who did a Pain fellowship, in response to an EP that had questions about Pain fellowships for EM people.

1-Patient's are by referral only, no walk in's
2-Must have a PCP or you can't see me
  • (super important when rule 4 comes in, so if there are issues, it's "Bye bye, go back to your PCP. Sorry. He started you on the stuff, he's the one that told you you needed it, not me, and I'm not your doctor yet, until I accept you as a patient to my practice which I haven't done yet.)
3-Cash pay patients aren't candidates for opiates. They're told this in advance by the scheduling clerk. Pill mills = "cash for pills." I don't do that. Every.
  • (Primarily since these patients almost never will pay cash for the necessary drug screens, MRIs, X-rays, or other things necessary and required for me to prescribe them opiates, AND these patients, as a rule, almost always want the highest dose, generic, highest street value opiate, without any abuse resistant technology [expensive name brand drugs])
4-Patients are told by scheduling clerk over the phone, and my nurse at the time of first consult "You will not get any prescriptions on the first visit, NO EXCEPTIONS"
  • This is by FAR, the most important rule, as it takes tremendous pressure off, that every patient has already been told "No" by someone other than myself. Also, this tells patients you're legit, and not a pill mill. Those looking for a cash for pills practice will cancel, no show and usually won't waste their time. Then, if they appear to have legitimate medical need, I'll send a drug screen, LC/MS and see them back in a week after records are reviewed. If they do not appear to have legitimate medical need, are drug abusers, then I simply don't schedule them to come back and they're not accepted into my practice, or I offer them maximization of non-opiate treatment options [injections, PT, nsaids, non-benzo muscle relaxers, anti-neuropathic, surgical referrals, addiction psych referral, etc, etc, etc]. It's totally okay, in a non-EMTALA setting, to tell a patient, "I'm sorry, but you will not be a good fit for my practice," and you don't have to see them over, and over, and over, and over, and over again, like you have to in the ED)
5-Prior to every new patient visit the multistage prescription monitoring database is served up to me on a silver platter by my nurse. I can spot a huge portion of drug abuse patterns within the first 3-5 seconds of looking at this report.

6- In my state, and the nearest neighboring state, criminal records are public and online, available to everyone. My nurse looks up all new potential medication patients, and any drug, alcohol or substance abuse crimes are noted.

7-If I don't have imaging to verify a likely pain generator, they don't get opiates.

8-Patients with non-verifiable pain syndromes don't get opiates (fibromyalgia, headaches, chronic abdominal pain of unknown cause, to name a few)

9-Anyone who has illicit drugs in there UDS (including MJ which is not legal in my state) doesn't get opiates, ever.

10-Anyone who's been discharged from a previous Pain MD for violation their opiate prescribing agreement does not get opiates.

11-I don't prescribe chronic daily benzos, or even short courses of benzos. The only exceptions are 1-2 pills max, one time for clausterphobic MRIs, in office kyphoplasty or spinal cord stimulation placement.

12-I don't prescribe stimulants.

13-I don't prescribe soma.

14- I don't prescribe methadone
  • Involved in 30% of overdoses but only prescribed in 5% of Pain patients, due to long half life, toxic metabolites and QTc prolongation, AND in many cases, people on it were actually started on it due to opiate abuse, in a methadone clinic and drifted into Pain practices so they don't have to go dose at a methadone clinic daily, but so they can come on only once every 1-3 months and get that large of a supply at one time. I a methadone clinic they only get one days dose, and they have to take it right them and there, EVERY DAY.
15- I don't prescribe suboxone, because it's almost always a marker for prior opiate abuse. They can get injections from me and get their suboxone from addiction psych. In fact, I can't prescribe suboxone. I don't have the special "X" on my DEA number. Never applied for it.

16- I don't prescribe Roxicodone 30mg, 15mg, 10 mg or 5 mg.

  • This is because this is the #1 abused drug with the highest street value in my area (per local DEA). Per law enforcement, this goes for $1 per mg. #120 of roxicodone 30 mg per month, is a $43,000 tax free street value per year, for someone selling it. I don't prescribe it. I have zero patient on this drug. That being said, I do have plenty of patients on tylenol containing hydrocodone or oxycodone products, but these are generally lower dose and although they can be abuse (like all opiates) the tylenol in them has somewhat of an indirect abuse resistant effect, in that the most hardcore drug abusers know they can't take huge amounts of it, or injection it, since they are smart enough to know the acetaminophen will kill their liver long before they'll get their fix of oxycodone.
17-I don't prescribe opiates to anyone on chronic daily benzos by other providers (anymore).

  • This is a newer rule, based on recent CDC guidelines. Although this combination is not an absolute contraindication, I've made it so in my practice. This has been a tough one to implement recently, since I had more patients that I realized that were on opiates from me, that also got benzos by their PCP or psych. 1/3 have been okay with coming off the benzos, 1/3 were resistant but did it anyway, and 1/3 have been pissed and are either unhappily complying or are actively finding a new doctor. This has been a CDC driven change aimed at risk reduction, to reduce risk of sudden death from benzo/opiate accidental overdose. Although I think this is very low risk for the few patient that had been on this combo, since they've all passed their UDS's and other screening, and since most had been on this combo for years, I've implemented the policy and it's had a positive effect, despite the grumbling.
18- UDS, BEFORE, opiates. Everyone has a resulted, forensic level LC/MS Urine Drug Screen result (which takes 3-5 days to come back) before any Rx is written, AND imaging to confirm diagnosis, AND any old records reviewed from their referrer to rule out past drug abuse behavior. If this stuff isn't in place, they're told to go back to the referring doctor and have the records sent. It's their responsibility to have this in place, not mine. If the drug screen shows illicits, they don't get opiates from me. Ever.

19- I don't prescribe "high dose" opiates, i.e., higher than 90 MME/day (for chronic non-cancer pain). MME/day = mg morphine equivalents per day. You do prescribe high dose opiates. You read that right: You in the ED, DO prescribe high dose opiates, higher than me (a fellowship trained and board certified Pain specialist) and you don't even know it.

  • This is also a CDC driven policy. Not that dose higher than that can't be prescribed. They can. But for risk reduction, I don't go over this level. Low dose opiates = 0mg - 50 MME/day. Moderate dose = 51-90 MMD/day. High dose is greater than 90 MME/day. A few examples of 90 MME/day would be: Morphine ER 30mg TID, Oxycontin 30mg BID, fentanyl 37 mcg. If you come in to my office, hoping to get fentanyl 100mcg q 72 hour, you're not a candidate to be my patient. If you come in expecting Oxycontin 80 mg q 12 hr + percocet 10/325 q 6 hr, you're not a candidate to be my patient. Most of my referring docs are in my group and know this, and won't even bother sending me people out of these bounds. I'm okay with that. I have lots of patients on 0mg of opiates per day. I have some one hydrocodone 5mg once daily, for the 90 year old that needs it to get out of the bed in the am, so she can walk with a walker and without being wheelchair bound. I have a guy that used to be on high dose opiates after getting run over by a car during a triathlon sustained multiple broken bones, and he's been tapered down to a single percocet 5/325 mg qhs. For perspective, when you guys in the ED write a percocet 10/325, 1-2 tab po q 4-6 hr prn, script for your acute fracture pain patient, you're prescribing them 180 MME/day. I'm at or below half of that, on ALL my patients, and many of them much lower, with many on no opiates. There are pain MD's out there that prescribe no opiates to anyone. There are others that may 'specialize' in high dose. That's fine. But for me, I don't see the logic in doing 'high dose' in today's environment myself. As far as a non-opiate practice, I may go that route some day, and had initially planned to, but at some point I realized it was ridiculous to take the option of reasonable and necessary opiates totally off the table. But to refuse the 89 year old who's spine MRI looks like WWI, who passes every drug test doesn't abuse the medication and has no surgical option, who's already tried and failed injections, and who needs 3 hydrocodone 10/325mg to stay ambulatory and out of a nursing home? That would be stupid.
20- I work with a modern mindset and a paradigm that says, "Opiates are not first line. If someone's not on opiates I won't start them. If they're one them, I won't dose escalate them. If they're above a certain limit, I won't prescribe it. And I'll actively look for reasons to stop them, and look for contraindications and have a high index of suspicion for potential abuse. Pain is not a 'vital' sign, only vital signs are vital signs. I decide if opiates are indicated, not the patient. And when in doubt, say 'No.'" I guarantee you I've started fewer opiate naive patients on opiates (potential to create an addiction or dependency that's not already there) in the last year, than you, in the ED. Me? Zero.
You? Likely many.

I don't work with a 1986 mindset, that threw away 4,000 years of cumulative knowledge about the dangers of the opium plant, such as, "Opiates are first line. There's no reason not to prescribe them. You can't get addicted if you have 'real' pain. There is no dose limit. Drug addicts can safely use opiates. When in doubt prescribe opiates. Pain is the 5th vital sign. Patients have a right to demand the drug, the dose, the form, they think is best and you must 'satisfy' them even if it means prescribing to someone you're worried my use the medicines for harm." This mantra is and was, a lie, and was mainly propagated by drug companies looking to profit of highly dependency inducing forms of opiates for patients that would have been better off not taking them.

21-I no longer accept Medicaid patients or work comp, personal injury (legal) patients. Did you read that? No Medicaid. Just imagine if you didn't have to see any Medicaid patients.


I've been doing this long enough now (6 years) that most of this is done either before I even see the patient, and much of the rest of it is subconsciously done by myself, with little effort. But you can't do any of this when you're in the ED, so you just get kamikaze attacked all day, by people that have been kicked out of their PCP or Pain MD offices. But by being able to follow a strict protocol like this, weeds out 98% of those who you're used to piling in the ED, angrily demanding drugs to sell or inject, while you're buried 20 patients deep in the waiting room and in between critical patients. In fact, writing the list, and looking it over, makes me wonder how anyone makes the cut and how anyone gets an opiate rx from me. But it does result in creating a work environment that's very nice to work in. I'm rarely yelled at, or argued with. I've only been threatened once in 6 years, and it was just a guy trying to show off. In the ED, it was more like once every 6 days and some of the patients were truly psychotic and dangerous, often. You do get lots of drug abusers seeking inappropriate meds the first 6 months in practice, but once word gets out, that you follow a protocol like this, it slows to a trickle and most of your patients are great. Having a "No opiates until proven otherwise" mindset, as opposed to a "opiates are a patient's right until proven otherwise" mindset, operating in a non-EMTALA setting without dangerous administrative threats of Press-Ganey blow back, makes all the difference in the world, and allows one to truly focus on helping people, trying to get people better, and focus on the procedures that may actually help. But it takes vigilant, effort and you have to care.

Bottom Line: If any of this ever gets intolerable or I just don't want to deal with it anymore, then I'll just stop prescribing opiates, altogether, and just do injections. But either way, I'll be in my bed every night, well rested every day, and off work every weekend and holiday for as long as I live.
 
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Very hard to believe.
I too was quite surprised by the results, and while I wouldn't recommend applying these results to all comers, the methods appear reasonably sound at first glance. Do you have specific criticisms?
 
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I too was quite surprised by the results, and while I wouldn't recommend applying these results to all comers, the methods appear reasonably sound at first glance. Do you have specific criticisms?

Nope. Just seems to contradict the reality I see.
 
I too was quite surprised by the results, and while I wouldn't recommend applying these results to all comers, the methods appear reasonably sound at first glance. Do you have specific criticisms?

Not OP, and I don't mean to disparage what seems like a well conducted and interesting study, but here is why it's not practice changing:

1) 18% of the patients received rescue analgesia. While the rates were not that different among the groups, I could see how it would obliterate any signal.

2) I couldn't figure out what percentage of the patients actually had fractures. They were fast track patients who the ED attending decided needed an XR. The majority of patients I send for XRs don't end up having a fracture. I suspect their population was similar. So their finding is really that for folks with extremity pain, who you would typically get an XR on, but end up not having a fracture get better with ibuprofen, acetaminophen, and waiting a couple of hours. Well, duh.

I would find this a lot more convincing if this study was done on a pain causing process that would not typically be expected to significantly improve over 2 hours with some tylenol. Like, folks undergoing CT for abdominal pain to rule out appendicitis. A randomization to 1000 mg acetaminophen IV vs 4 mg morphine IV would be interesting to see. If that showed no difference, I would probably change my practice.
 
Not OP, and I don't mean to disparage what seems like a well conducted and interesting study, but here is why it's not practice changing:

1) 18% of the patients received rescue analgesia. While the rates were not that different among the groups, I could see how it would obliterate any signal.

2) I couldn't figure out what percentage of the patients actually had fractures. They were fast track patients who the ED attending decided needed an XR. The majority of patients I send for XRs don't end up having a fracture. I suspect their population was similar. So their finding is really that for folks with extremity pain, who you would typically get an XR on, but end up not having a fracture get better with ibuprofen, acetaminophen, and waiting a couple of hours. Well, duh.

I would find this a lot more convincing if this study was done on a pain causing process that would not typically be expected to significantly improve over 2 hours with some tylenol. Like, folks undergoing CT for abdominal pain to rule out appendicitis. A randomization to 1000 mg acetaminophen IV vs 4 mg morphine IV would be interesting to see. If that showed no difference, I would probably change my practice.

The fracture #s were in one of the tables - it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% if I recall correctly.

You are correct. The applicability of this study is narrow - it doesn't apply to those who have failed analgesia prior to arrival, and it only looked at extremity pain. Also, I'm going to give my next patient with an obvious bad fracture hydromorphone up front. But this study supports the idea that opiates/opioids needn't be our first line drug for moderate extremity pain, and "well duh" is among the reasonable replies to this conclusion. However, I don't see people practicing that way even 50% of the time. If your experience is that the non-opiate arm of this study reflects the standard practice in your area, then your area's doing a better job than mine.
 
Schedule for today:

7:30 am
Left hand injection with fluoro
Bilat hand (Thumb cmc joint) injection
Bilateral L2/3 transforaminal epidural steroid injection
left lumbar (3 level) facet nerve radiofrequency ablation
L5/S1 interlaminar epidural steroid injection
Bilateral knee Euflexxa (gel) injections
R hand injection (why do I have so damn many hand injections today? Lol)
Trigger point injections
R shoulder injection
C7/T1 epidural steroid injection
C7/T1 epidural steroid injection
Bilateral knee euflexxa injections

12:00 Lunch 1 hour; probably will go to Panera and chillax, or if running behind, stay in office and scavenge the primary care doc's drug-rep food if it looks yummy; hopefully not running too late to get a cookie.

(12:55 pre-round 2 coffee chug)

1:00
Another cervical ESI
Lumbar facet nerve rfa (4 nerve/3 joint)
Bilateral (3 level) lumbar facet nerve block
Left lumbar facet nerve ablation
T3/4 epidural steroid injection
Cervical ESI

4:00 pm done
 
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This is a sub-specialty of Emergency Medicine now.

98192D8B-DED2-4558-AB1A-E15447FDFE65.jpeg
 
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Anyone know of a good course to get better at peripheral nerve blocks? I'd like to get better at them..... without doing a pain fellowship
 
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Anyone know of a good course to get better at peripheral nerve blocks? I'd like to get better at them..... without doing a pain fellowship
You could check with ASRA.
 
Anyone know of a good course to get better at peripheral nerve blocks? I'd like to get better at them..... without doing a pain fellowship

Birdstrike should make a website for us with step by step videos on this. He could monetize it too by offering CME option.
 
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I got burned out on EM after a few years out in the community, and went back and did an accredited Pain fellowship.

Logistically, how did you get into a pain fellowship after 7-10 years of being in the community? How did you get letters of recommendation? Assuming you didn't do a Pain rotation during residency, did programs question your lack of exposure to the field? Did you need to set up any rotations/shadowing?
 
Logistically, how did you get into a pain fellowship after 7-10 years of being in the community?

I just applied. That's it. I just applied. To as many programs as humanly possible.

How did you get letters of recommendation?
The same way anyone does, and the same way I always did. I asked the CEO of my EM group, the Director of my EM and a fellow EM guy I worked with and was friends with, but also happened to have the 'Chief of Medicine' title at that moment. I didn't get a single letter from anyone in Pain.

Assuming you didn't do a Pain rotation during residency, did programs question your lack of exposure to the field?
I did not do a Pain rotation in residency. If it existed and was available, I wasn't aware of it.

Some did seem to question my lack of specific 'Pain' exposure. But I made the point that in 11 years in EM, I saw approximately 30,000 patients, 21,000 (70%) of whom had a chief complaint of some type of pain and 12,000 (40%) of whom had at least an underlying diagnosis of chronic pain, whether or not related to their visit. I attempted to persuade them that was better, more useful and more varied experience that 1 or 2 months on a rotation. Also, I persuaded them that if I could excel in the real world of Emergency Medicine for years, I would be highly likely to excel as a Pain fellow. At least one program was sufficiently persuaded.

Did you need to set up any rotations/shadowing?
I would have loved to have done a Pain rotation if there was an academic Pain department at my job site, but there wasn't. I tried to set up a shadowing arrangement, but most of the local Pain MD's were helpful only to a point. I spoke to several on the phone, even met up with one in his office, but when they realized I was serious, they no longer wanted to assist helping or training someone who was likely to be a formidable competitor in their area and potentially take patients away in the future. Doing a rotation and/or shadowing are highly recommended, in my opinion, but it just didn't work out for me. Instead, I signed up for a cadaver procedure course, but couldn't work out a date until after interviews. It was something I could point to, when the question of lack of a rotation or shadowing came up, that I had an interventional pain procedure course at least scheduled. It was very helpful, and recommended, to at least have some intro to epidural loss of resistance technique and guiding a needle under fluoro.

Bottom line: If you can excel in the chaotic and challenging ED real-world environment, you won't have any problem excelling in an interventional Pain fellowship. If fact, you'll likely be your fellowship MVP, a real superstar.
 
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Did this today. Spinal cord stimulator placement. 2, 8-electrode leads in the posterior epidural space. Lateral T-spine fluoro x-ray:

52616e646f6d49565c493bfa1b2f0742f2931f1732c907d5077a58ab8823a34e.jpg





AP view, with leads seen up to T8/9 disc space (horizontal needle is external to patient, on skin surface to mark T 10 vertebrae):
52616e646f6d4956aba3db2d67d7661d51254e9b8eb1035da8a87775e815fa95.jpg


Done in my office fluoro-suite today, with my brand new, high-res GE OEC 9900 fluoroscopy machine.
 
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Did this today. Spinal cord stimulator placement. 2, 8-electrode leads in the posterior epidural space. Lateral T-spine fluoro x-ray:

View attachment 225441




AP view, with leads seen up to T8/9 disc space (horizontal needle is external to patient, on skin surface to mark T 10 vertebrae):
View attachment 225440

Done in my office fluoro-suite today, with my brand new, high-res GE OEC 9900 fluoroscopy machine.

PM'd. Thanks for sharing your cool procedures.
 
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Don't think I'll ever jump to a pain fellowship now that I've been out for almost 10 years but seeing those pictures is pretty cool. Still get enough of a rush from community EM I'll stick with it but it's been neat to read your experience in detail.
 
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I wish pain was an option for me, but unfortunately, I suck at procedures. It took me a LONG time to get the ones we need in EM down. Now, I'm fairly good at those, but only after failing a multitude and multiplicity of times.
 
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24F41D89-77C9-4D88-98B9-4FF72E802EE3.jpeg
L1 Kyphoplasty today. In-office fluoro suite
47473025-5F52-4C65-893C-A9E990B0F100.jpeg




Also, nice left SI joint injection image, also from today:

12DF7A0B-81CC-4777-AB4D-6C200AF23497.jpeg
 

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I think birdstrike nailed it when he said pain is not a specialty that would appeal to most EPs, and thus isn't for everyone. I belong in that camp. As for CC, that would seem to be a lateral move, or even one where you make less money, for perhaps a more stable schedule. So, depends on what you want to spend your day doing, I suppose.
 
Anyone know of someone doing EM-->Palliative Care?
 
Anyone know of someone doing EM-->Palliative Care?

Well, my EM career is in hospice and palliative mode. In other words, my philosophy towards my career has shifted from trying to diagnose and fix the problem to just making it as painless as possible. Basically, comfort measures only. My family keeps changing the code status though.
 
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Anyone know of someone doing EM-->Palliative Care?

I personally know one EM guy who went into Hospice & Palliative care. He likes it. Also, one of my former attendings in residency went into it. I haven’t talked to him about it. In my Pain fellowship, we did a month of it. I had no idea what to expect, but I actually liked it, in a way. It is literally one of the lowest, if not the lowest, paid specialties in all of medicine.
 
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Had my nurse call Kypho Patient from above: Zero Pain at 24 hours.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hey guys,

I'm reaching out for a little help and advice. I'm in a pretty rough place personally/emotionally and am not sure that I can do 20-30 years of EM.

It does sound like EM may, or may not be a good fit for you. I have definitely had days like you describe, and it takes some courage to bare your soul and express that kind of doubt. While you might plow through your residency an ultimately find meaning and joy in your work, I wouldn't ignore your inner voice nor the concerns that you have articulated.

I have a colleague who left our ED to do a CC fellowship at Stanford. He had been out in EM practice as an attending for 5 years, and might be able to give you some perspective and information on the path he has taken.

If you PM me, I can try to put you in touch with him.
 
Finish residency. Work for two years. Then make a decision. Being an attending is so different from being a resident you almost can't compare them. Then if you want to transition to CC or Pain or whatever, you're in a great position to do so, especially if you keep your living expenses way down during those two years. But I wouldn't change horses in mid stream.

The alternative is to enter the match and try to get into ortho. But you better be sure....
 
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Out of curiousity, are there many EM docs who split their time between pain and general EM? Or do they mostly just focus on one or the other?

Thanks!
 
Out of curiousity, are there many EM docs who split their time between pain and general EM? Or do they mostly just focus on one or the other?

Thanks!

I’m doing 100% Pain, now,. I do know one guy, who ended up splitting it 50/50 EM/Pain, working at Kaiser. It’s definitely possible to do both, but easiest to focus on one (see Occam’s razor).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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