EM residencies with good EMS involvement

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

crewmaster1

Nattitwo
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
377
Reaction score
3
Points
4,551
Location
The Great Northwest
  1. Attending Physician
I'm in the process of starting to search for EM programs to apply to...what a job! I have a decent amount of EMS involvement and would like to continue this in my EM residency. What are the great programs in the US that have a good amount of EMS involvement during residency? I mean like getting to do stuff in the pre-hospital setting (active ambulance/transport stuff, maybe active flight stuff)...I don't want to do "ride-alongs" and watch people do stuff, I want to do it! Where should I be considering? Thanks for all your help!
 
I think Pitt is probably at the top of the list since residents often go to scenes in a fly car and also fly with STAT MedEvac. They also have heavy involvement with EMS education.

We (Yale) are heavy with EMS research and education, but have no flight program or fly car. We do have affiliations with LifeStar and STAT MedEvac, however. You can be an assistant medical director of one of the local fire departments (some transport, some don't) during your PGY-3 and 4 years.

Cincinnati has a great flight program. I'm unsure of how involved residents are with paramedic education and to my knowledge to not go out in a fly car.

Mayo has a flight program and allows you to be a medical director of a smaller service during your PGY-2 and 3 years.

These are the programs that I know have flight programs where residents fly: Cincinnati, Mayo, UMass, Carolinas, Case Western, Chicago, Pitt, and Michigan.
 
crewmaster1 said:
I'm in the process of starting to search for EM programs to apply to...what a job! I have a decent amount of EMS involvement and would like to continue this in my EM residency. What are the great programs in the US that have a good amount of EMS involvement during residency? I mean like getting to do stuff in the pre-hospital setting (active ambulance/transport stuff, maybe active flight stuff)...I don't want to do "ride-alongs" and watch people do stuff, I want to do it! Where should I be considering? Thanks for all your help!

I have mixed feelings about answering questions like these. Part of me wants to say, if you enjoy the work of an emergency physician, become an emergency physician. If you want to ride in an ambulance a lot and splint legs and bag people, retain your status as an EMT. It's a positive thing if you want to make advances in prehospital care, educate, and run things---it's another if you just want to be a lifelong EMT. Being a medical director and being a paramedic are two very different things. In my opinion, if you're truly interested in EMS and pre-hospital care, I would also take a look at UT Southwestern in Dallas. Paul Peppe (the dept chair) is very big into that.

That being said, when you talk to programs about their "EMS experience" ask them very specific questions. One of my best friends completed his residency at the program mentioned jeep ("fly car?") and had to ask permission everytime he turned on the lights/sirens. He ended up hating it.

Regarding flight, you want to find a program where the residents aren't observers, aren't a tradeout for a position usually held by a paramedic. You want a truly 100% of the time MD/RN team. You want a flight program with a good safety record, one that's busy. Preferably one that you can "moonlight" on and earn money. Different programs set it up in various ways. Our program works dedicated flight shifts. Others have you on standby for flight while you're working in the ED---something that would drive me insane.

mike
 
University of illinois at Peoria is HUGE into EMS. they have 2 tactical EMS gurus that still do call outs with the swat team on faculty there and you fly as a MD/RN team all 3 years. You can moonlight for 35 bucks/hour on the helicopter all 3 years! They serve as the medical direction for a huge amount of services in and around Peoria.

University of Iowa you fly MD/RN on the new helicopter (EC-130). They will also tailor your experience to how much EMS involvement you want. You will also be involved in EMS education there.

Mayo you fly the last 2 years as an MD/RN crew. the first year you do a month on the chopper as "orientation".

University of nebraska you fly with MD/RN crew as well and medical direct Omaha fire/EMS.

Regions in St. Paul has a huge internationally known EMS guru on staff and they serve as medical directors to over 40 EMS services. Lots of EMS research going on.

later
 
Since it came up 🙂

At UC we do some pretty heavy EMS stuff. We don't have the badass jeep that Pitt does but we do a lot of flights as a permanent part of the MD/RN team - both in dedicated shifts as well as out of the Pod - which is a great way for a second year resident to learn how to manage time really well (want to learn to get stuff started fast as a R2? Get 4 new patients in your box when you already have 7 active ones and then get called out on a 90 minute flight - you learn to work really well with your nurses since they run things when you're gone). While it's a little crazy, you get used to it - and it only drives us a little crazy. :laugh: Plus it's one of the reasons that most of us came here.

We're also into both EMS directorship and tactical EMS. More than half of our residents are asst. medical directors of the more than 15 local squads, participating in both training and didactic courses that they each design. And our tactical EMS is second to none - as one of the SWAT docs, I train with the team 1-2 times a month (heavy weapons, rappelling, PT, bus/plane takedowns, everything) and one of the 6 of us is at every SWAT callout (the team averages 220 a year) as an active member of the team (we go to the door, not stay in the van). There are a few other programs that do the same - I'm sure you can find them if you look.

If you've got any questions, feel free to PM me.
 
I have a question: If a program has flight operations as part of their EMS exposure, is it possible to opt out of such things, in favor of ground based EMS rotations? It's not that I don't like to fly (I love to fly) it's just that aeromedical helicopters have abyssmal safety records and I don't care to stick my neck out that much for what little patient benefit there appears to be from most flights.
 
From the perspective of an applicant who has just seen all these places, I would state the following:

EMS stuff is way overrated unless you are planning to stay involved SERIOUSLY after residency. Hell just yesterday I was driving across the state and ran across an overturned vehicle with a 72 year old lady entrapped. I broke out the back window and crawled through glass to find her pretty stable overall. I simply maintained C-spine, assessed the portions of her body I could reach, and KED'd her when the medics got there. We got her out, boarded, and gone within a few minutes and all I had to show for it was a jacked up lumbar spasm this morning. She would have had the same outcome whether I was there or an EMT was there. My goal is to coordinate and write protocols for more medical aspects of EMS and serve as a small agencies medical director. I am not all that excited about the EMS hands on stuff though being over 30 now.

My experience on the trail showed a few programs that stood out in terms of flight and EMS experience POTENTIAL though. They were:

University of Iowa: Has a training classroom and center on the same floor as the EM office where they have full time courses running for EMT, EMT-P, ATLS, ACLS, and education from residents is wide open if you want to do it. Their flight program has the coolest bird I have ever seen and their medical director seems to be open to allowing you to customize your flight experience. They are a new program and with the INCREDIBLE faculty they will have the potential to do great things here. They have been and will continue to be VERY high on my wish list!

Indy: Incredible place with probably the most regimented flight experience on the block with a resident on EVERY flight, scheduled that way. You are a valued member of the team and are seriously needed. Ground EMS training and experience seemed solid. Were honestly at or near the very top of my list until recently. I just don't get the whole "no contact thing" they have and it makes you sort of feel like the unpopular high school kid trying to hang with the popular crowd. They are all stars at Indy, residents and faculty, but for God's sake, is it asking too much to reply to a freaking thank you email? They migrate anywhere between top and tenth on my list on any given day....the most fluid of programs in my final mix.

Case: Best mix of resident or faculty coverage on the bird without feeling like you were strapped to it like at Indy where you better like flying a lot. You can moonlight on the bird at Case and they have a huge flight program with state of the art facilities. But, if flying is not your thing, you can do your month and be done! Another place high on the wish list!

Peoria: The silent and less known program with probably the most phenomenol flight program around. You can fly as often as 2 shifts per month as part of your routine ED shifts where you do fast track until a call comes in. Seems rather cake those days unless the bird is up all night. They fly resident/nurse for all flights as well and this place is nearly as busy as Case but with even more crazy stuff because they are in the middle of the state. They have solid EMS exposure as well if you want it.

Texas Tech: No real flight stuff but they like Iowa have an in-house EMS training program where you can teach until your heart is content, drink coffee with the boys, and pretent to be a blue collar ambulance driver until you are blue in the face! And I have heard you can fly for an elective out there. I really loved this place for its personality that is one of a kind. You need to see it if you like the mountains and the laid back lifestyle imported by the Mexican and southwest people.

Pitt: Probably a bit overrated on the EMS aspect but still solid. The whole Jeep thing though is kind of interesting. It allows residents the opportunity to make scenes of traumas and arrests but it seems to be a bit oversold if you asked me. It might help you get your map skills down if you ever intend to drive a taxi in Pittsburgh, but if you have ANY EMS experience in your back pocket already it seems a waste of time. You might rarely get a tube or use some odd meds in the field that are in the physician box, but I don't see this being all that fabulous of an experience after looking at it from multiple angles. I would rather have the ED shift to gain experience; I already know what it is like to drive fast to a scene and pump on grandpa's chest in the living room. MikeCWU was right on the money if you asked my opinion. Their EMS training in house is top knotch though, and because I like the city and people this program is one I will not soon forget. I like them a lot, but not for their EMS stuff so much.

Duke: No real EMS experience that I could uncover. Their flight experience seems to be the equivilant of the paid ride at the county fair. No chance you are touching a Duke flight patient with flight nurses stil conscious!

Mayo: Quite possibly the coolest mix of EMS/flight experience you could tailor. They have the opportunities to fly should you wish to, but with the badass ED they have and mix of patients, I would probably just do my month and then go back to the state of the art ED. Plus they have ways for you to be EMS assistant director in rural nowhere (Rochester too is rural nowhere if you haven't been there, but that is what makes it so nice!). I can't even explain how grand this place was. EMS and flight will become less important to you if you find this place to be at the top of your list, I can promise!!

Still a few more interviews at UTSW, Scott and White, and Arkansas and then I'll comment more on the EMS stuff. I think though from my take on things is that the door is wide freaking open if you want to be highly involved in EMS. Most residents don't care for it so you will become highly popular among the inner EMS circle in the area if you choose to do it.

All that for a simple question, but you know me!
 
Praetorian said:
aeromedical helicopters have abyssmal safety records and I don't care to stick my neck out that much for what little patient benefit there appears to be from most flights.

unfortunately a very true statement.
 
On a related note, never EVER tell a helicopter pilot best known as "Zeke" and I quote: "There is no why in hell you can fit this BK117 into that LZ." He will damn sure try and wind up trimming the neighbors trees for them in the process.
 
Praetorian said:
I have a question: If a program has flight operations as part of their EMS exposure, is it possible to opt out of such things, in favor of ground based EMS rotations? It's not that I don't like to fly (I love to fly) it's just that aeromedical helicopters have abyssmal safety records and I don't care to stick my neck out that much for what little patient benefit there appears to be from most flights.

The RRC requirement is that the program must inform you in advance if they intend to require you to fly. Some programs with choppers give you the choice. Check before you spend a money on an interview if this is important to you.

In general I agree with your assessment about benefit. Three exceptions
1. war zone
2. major urban area with gridlock
3. mountainous areas with difficult roads and access.
 
Another general exception is transfer of patients between facilities over long distances. I take issue with the scene flight rates of some services. We have a major issue with Lifeline (Indy's helos) being overutilized by undertrained EMT's here often just because they think it's "cool" to call for the helicopter.
 
Thanks for all the great replies and leads for great residencies with EMS stuff....I am currently at the university of Washington....are there any West coast programs with good EMS that anyone knows of? Thanks.
 
Thanks for all the great replies and leads for great residencies with EMS stuff....I am currently at the university of Washington....are there any West coast programs with good EMS that anyone knows of? Thanks.
 
mikecwru said:
Regarding flight, you want to find a program where the residents aren't observers, aren't a tradeout for a position usually held by a paramedic.

mike

Mike,

I agree with the observer comment, but why the "trade out" one? What is the difference? If you are on the aircraft as a member of the aircrew, then that is your role. Are you saying that the flight nurse "outranks" (for lack of a better term) the flight MD in these cases? Not so. At Mayo it is a "trade out" for another crew member. Our Rochester based bird flies RN/RN, RN/medic or RN/MD based solely on scheduling (our other two never have MDs on board). It works fine.

That said I also agree with you regarding "If you want to ride in an ambulance a lot and splint legs and bag people, retain your status as an EMT. It's a positive thing if you want to make advances in prehospital care, educate, and run things---it's another if you just want to be a lifelong EMT." It is a fine line to draw, and is the primary reason I don't fly much anymore.

- H
 
I've heard that the U of Chicago residency has really good flight/EMS... any thoughts/experiences with that?
 
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the UMass Program for flight experience. While I have yet to interview there, I have heard a number of people talk about what a great flight program they have.

Anyone with more info on this?
 
Koko said:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the UMass Program for flight experience. While I have yet to interview there, I have heard a number of people talk about what a great flight program they have.

Anyone with more info on this?
Did you see my original post? UMass was mentioned.
 
My program, USF, doesn't have a super amount of hands-on experience... we do ride alongs and fly alongs with EMS... but we have a lot of opportunities when it comes to EMS leadership... one of our attendings is head of City of Tampa Fire/EMS, and our asst. res director is assistant med director for sarasota county... so we get a lot of experience in protocols and becoming a medical director.

Not quite as glamorous as driving around in Buffalo in an Explorer with the lights and sirens on... but nonetheless important in the long run.

Q
 
Are you asking if I think an RN outranks the level of care a paramedic can provide? The answer is yes.

I think the MD/RN teams are optimal for a few reasons: it enhances the level of care, it makes it easier for physicians to obtain shifts, etc.

I'm not going to let this devolve into a "who's more important argument," but it seems common sense that if a resident wants an engrossing flight experience, he/she should chose a program where a physician is a NECESSARY not optional part of the process.


mike

FoughtFyr said:
Mike,

I agree with the observer comment, but why the "trade out" one? What is the difference? If you are on the aircraft as a member of the aircrew, then that is your role. Are you saying that the flight nurse "outranks" (for lack of a better term) the flight MD in these cases? Not so. At Mayo it is a "trade out" for another crew member. Our Rochester based bird flies RN/RN, RN/medic or RN/MD based solely on scheduling (our other two never have MDs on board). It works fine.

That said I also agree with you regarding "If you want to ride in an ambulance a lot and splint legs and bag people, retain your status as an EMT. It's a positive thing if you want to make advances in prehospital care, educate, and run things---it's another if you just want to be a lifelong EMT." It is a fine line to draw, and is the primary reason I don't fly much anymore.

- H
 
QuinnNSU said:
My program, USF, doesn't have a super amount of hands-on experience... we do ride alongs and fly alongs with EMS... but we have a lot of opportunities when it comes to EMS leadership... one of our attendings is head of City of Tampa Fire/EMS, and our asst. res director is assistant med director for sarasota county... so we get a lot of experience in protocols and becoming a medical director.

Not quite as glamorous as driving around in Buffalo in an Explorer with the lights and sirens on... but nonetheless important in the long run.

Q

It's an Expedition.
 
EMS was a big deal for me when looking into residencies. I hope it will continue to be a big deal for me post residency. Half-way through my intern year, what I'm finding is an even bigger deal than EMS is sleep.

Seriously, I'm so focused on learning this doctor thing that any time I have after getting home is usually spent either with my family or asleep.

Maybe next year.

Take care,
Jeff
 
Jeff698 said:
EMS was a big deal for me when looking into residencies. I hope it will continue to be a big deal for me post residency. Half-way through my intern year, what I'm finding is an even bigger deal than EMS is sleep.

Seriously, I'm so focused on learning this doctor thing that any time I have after getting home is usually spent either with my family or asleep.

Maybe next year.

Take care,
Jeff

This is mainly what I heard on the interview trail this year. All of the past paramedic EM residents said the same thing........you are just too plain busy to do much with EMS during your first and sometimes second year of residency. There just isn't time for it.

One resident who was a former medic (like myself) said that his program has so many cool EMS opportunities like paramedic teaching, medical director stuff (ie protocol committees) etc..., but that he had ZERO time to do any of it while being on call constantly during OB/ trauma/ ICU / whatever.

there just wasn't time. hopefully there will be more time for the fun of EMS during the second and third years.

later
 
Jeff698 said:
Half-way through my intern year, what I'm finding is an even bigger deal than EMS is sleep.
Hell, that describes my time as a paid EMT-I:
CHIEF: "So are you going to the Death and Donuts session?" (the nickname locally for the EMS quality assurance/quality improvement sessions held monthly)
ME: "Do I have a choice?"
CHIEF: "Yes, you can attend the session tomorrow instead of today's. But why wait?"
ME: "Put it this way, I haven't slept in *looks at watch* 32 hours and I had a drunk tell me that I needed to shave. 😕 At this point I would rather floss with barbed wire, than stay awake any longer than I absolutely have to."
 
mikecwru said:
Are you asking if I think an RN outranks the level of care a paramedic can provide? The answer is yes.
...
mike

Just curious - what do you mean by "outranks the level of care?"
 
paramed2premed said:
Just curious - what do you mean by "outranks the level of care?"

I'm not sure what the previous poster was meaning, but to use an example:

In the emergency department:

RN's are above paramedics. Paramedics are known as "Techs" and assist the nurses. Their scope of practice is greatly reduced.

Obviously in the field, paramedics actually have large scope of practice, but realize that RN's on specialty care transports and in birds can still do more than medics.


EDIT: This example applies for Texas (it can vary by state)
 
must...not....take....bait....


but...want...nay....need...to... +pad+

Take care,
Jeff
 
paramed2premed said:
Just curious - what do you mean by "outranks the level of care?"

By that I mean that the sophistication of the care that a RN/MD team can provide is higher. I think it's the ideal team to transport a patient, say, on a balloon pump with several vasoactive drips requiring titration.

It's not to imply that paramedics aren't good people, aren't good at what they do, and aren't important members of a health care team.

This is not meant to be elitist, but in a sense, I see a lot of people "apologizing" for being a physician. I still think the physician runs the team and has ultimate responsibility for the patient. Doesn't mean that paramedics, nurses, RTs, and everyone else's skills aren't important and input isn't valued.

mike
 
OSUdoc08 said:
RN's are above paramedics. Paramedics are known as "Techs" and assist the nurses. Their scope of practice is greatly reduced.

This really varies by state. Some states actually have laws preventing non-nursing personnel from working in the role of a nurse in a hospital. These states essentially have paramedic techs in the ED. Some states (i.e., Georgia) have laws specifically allowing paramedics to function in the role of a nurse.

Where I worked as a paramedic, we had paramedics working in the ER doing everything a nurse would do.
 
mikecwru said:
By that I mean that the sophistication of the care that a RN/MD team can provide is higher. I think it's the ideal team to transport a patient, say, on a balloon pump with several vasoactive drips requiring titration.

I think all critical care and helicopter transport services should be RN/MD or EMT-P/MD.
 
southerndoc said:
I think all critical care and helicopter transport services should be RN/MD or EMT-P/MD.

I don't know how well that would work but I haven't flown with an EMT-P. In the previous example, with a balloon pump, I wouldn't know how to set up the balloon pump/computer to save my life. Our RNs have a requirement of 5 years of ICU experience, go through extensive training when hired, and a lot of them complete a flight academy or go master's level with flight specialization.

I can't think of any specific problems with a trauma scene run with a paramedic, but on critical care transfers there may be logistical issues.

mike
 
I was going to forego replying to this thread, but could not resist. There were a few points that I noted in this thread that I wanted to reply to. They are not necessarily in preferential order.

The assertion that a paramedic probably would not be a "problem" on a trauma scene run, but may present "logistical" problems on other types of runs, was a bit one sided. Now, suppose we were to reverse this a bit. "Nurses probably would be a problem on an interfacility transport, but migh present logistical problems on a scene run." I note that the nursing association seldom brings up the fact that nurses are not trained in the unique skills of the prehospital environment, the least of which is vehicle extrication. RNs in my state were allowed to simply challenge the paramedic exam and function in the prehospital environment with very little additional training. Most paramedics feel this is a slap in the face. It is true that paramedics are not trained to care long term for septic patients, ards, etc. that are frequently found in the ICU. However, unless the helicopter breaks down in the wilderness, I would hope that they would not be expected to.

Somehow there seems to be the covert, if not open, belief that paramedics cannot be trained to care for critically ill patients, manage vasopressive agents, or operate vents or IABP's. The reverse does not seem to be the case. Nurses are often assumed to be capable of working in the prehospital environment with ease. Why is that the case? Paramedics can be trained to the same level as RN's for hemodynamic monitoring and carry additional skills that they acquired in the prehospital environment. In fact, there are programs specifically for the training of CC Paramedics.

We are all aware that there is quite a bit of tension between EMS personnel and nurses. Part of this is because the nurses, and their political lobbies, always assume, nay, assert, that they are superior to paramedics. Where does this originate? Why is it perpetuated? The "Laws" keeping EMS personnel out of hospitals that you refer to were pressed by the nursing lobby, it has no relevance to ones qualifications, only to the political power that the nursing lobby exerts to maintain, and expand, a monopoly. My home state recently enacted laws that allows paramedics to function in any environment (Homes, hospitals, Dr's offices, etc.). The problem arises because the nursing associations create the rules for the hospital. Thus, most paramedics cannot use their skills when they enter a hospital.

I don't mean to start an ugly debate, and I do feel that a nurse/paramedic team is ideal. However, the arrogant belief that nurses are the only ones that can be properly trained in critical care needs to be reevaluated.
 
I think that an MD (PGY-2+)/ RN (with em experience) or Paramedic team is the best... but then again, i'm biased :-D
 
having worked critical care transport with some excellent RNs....i agree with ditch's statement that there are large prehospital gaps that would take both additonal training and experience in order to bridge to a P. sounds like this does not happen in most places...
 
I have to say I would prefer/think/like a RN/EMT-P team. First of all, that is all I've ever called to one of my scenes my whole career. In a perfect world I would like to see RN/EMT-P and RN/EMT-P. that would be a rockstar team.

I don't see MD's adding much to most flights. Especially an MD who wasn't a prehospital provider prior to being an MD. Your joe-blow MD straight out of school who goes into EM SHOULD NOT be any better than a experienced flight RN or flight paramedic.

This is just personal opinion.

There is some literature out there somewhere saying that there really isn't any difference in outcomes for the different teams........I'm almost positive. Just don't want to look it up. I'm sure someone will.

RT's would be nice for interfacility transports.

This is out of ignorance, but do anybody's RT's at their facilities titrate drips, play with IABP's, perform intubations regularly, immobilize people on spine boards, extricate etc.....

The reason I ask is that it would seem outwardly that grabbing an RT from the hospitals that I worked at so far would be the LAST person in the world I'd want showing up on a scene flight.

I know this will enrage praetorian, but do RT's on flight teams have to go through special pre-hospital training and get tubes and such?

I mean I know nurses don't do airways normally, but they are great at drugs, drips, IABP's, whereas the paramedic is a master of pre-hospital airway, extrication dealing with really sick people in the field.

Thus..........nurse/paramedic team rocks in my opinion.

looking forward to a vigorous response.

But, please realize this is all my opinion and i'm not being mean or malicious in anyway. I love everyone.

later
 
This is out of ignorance, but do anybody's RT's at their facilities titrate drips, play with IABP's, perform intubations regularly, immobilize people on spine boards, extricate etc.....

The reason I ask is that it would seem outwardly that grabbing an RT from the hospitals that I worked at so far would be the LAST person in the world I'd want showing up on a scene flight.

I know this will enrage praetorian, but do RT's on flight teams have to go through special pre-hospital training and get tubes and such?

It didn't enrage me at all, in fact it doesn't bother me in the slightest. We are taught to intubate and manage hemodynamic monitoring lines (I actually was taught (in the military mind you) how to insert a Swan-Ganz catheter), in fact that is the part of the RRT exam that trips up a lot of people.

As for the frequency of intubations, that varies a great deal as to where you work as an RT. At some hospitals we intubate more often than the ER docs (one hospital I worked at we intubated almost everyone in the ER who needed it), while at others it's a cold day in hell if the RT's get to tube. But we are taught in school how to intubate and perform (and assist with) tracheostomies. I know some places also teach their RT's to manage IABP, and I have been trained on them, but I don't think this is very common.

I should also mention that a lot of RT's who do interfacility transfers are also EMS qualified (such as myself) so it really is not as scary as one might think. I know several ground transport or fixed wing transport operations who will only talk to an RT who is also EMS qualified.

I only know of two helicopter flight services that use RT's frequently (outside of the military) and I've never worked for either of them so I can't speak to the training that they use prior to OK'ing an RT to fly.

Sorry if this was not the vigorous response you offered, but then again I'm comfortable in my own skin as an RT and therefore I am an exception to the rule of the easily offended RT. 😉
 
O.k., crew composition doesn't matter:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11805762&query_hl=22

Additionally, Maryland has had great success with medic/medic crews (each is actually a cop too, they fly armed):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10724739&query_hl=10

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15715519&query_hl=8

That said, I think the larger discussion (since this thread has been officially hijacked) is the utility of helicopter transport altogether.

Two papers for aeromedical transport are here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10589149&query_hl=2

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10724739&query_hl=2

One that suggests there might be some utility, but concludes further research is needed to identify populations who benefit is here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9420109&query_hl=2

This one dealing with pediatric patients found that there was a benefit for patients who truly required, but also found that 85% of calls in their study did not require the resources of the aeromedical team:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8863261&query_hl=2

And lastly, here is an intersting paper that examined the effects of discontinuing a hospital based aeromedical program. The findings? No significant increase in transport times or patient mortality from trauma. See:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11901324&query_hl=2

- H
 
Re: "pre-hospital care"

The helicopter crews do not extricate the patient. The fire departments do that. On a "scene" run there are certain pre-hospital elements such as intubating someone in a field with poor lighting, working with only a two person team, etc, but whether the RN/MD know how to cut someone out of a car is inconsequential.

I *did* have EMS experience prior to medical school and still have my previously stated opinion.

Let's put EMT-basics (2) on ALS trucks... who needs paramedics? Are you saying paramedics are SMARTER than EMT basics? [sarcasm] No! It's because they have more training and can provide a higher level of care.


We all have our opinions.
mike


a_ditchdoc said:
I was going to forego replying to this thread, but could not resist. There were a few points that I noted in this thread that I wanted to reply to. They are not necessarily in preferential order.

The assertion that a paramedic probably would not be a "problem" on a trauma scene run, but may present "logistical" problems on other types of runs, was a bit one sided. Now, suppose we were to reverse this a bit. "Nurses probably would be a problem on an interfacility transport, but migh present logistical problems on a scene run." I note that the nursing association seldom brings up the fact that nurses are not trained in the unique skills of the prehospital environment, the least of which is vehicle extrication. RNs in my state were allowed to simply challenge the paramedic exam and function in the prehospital environment with very little additional training. Most paramedics feel this is a slap in the face. It is true that paramedics are not trained to care long term for septic patients, ards, etc. that are frequently found in the ICU. However, unless the helicopter breaks down in the wilderness, I would hope that they would not be expected to.

Somehow there seems to be the covert, if not open, belief that paramedics cannot be trained to care for critically ill patients, manage vasopressive agents, or operate vents or IABP's. The reverse does not seem to be the case. Nurses are often assumed to be capable of working in the prehospital environment with ease. Why is that the case? Paramedics can be trained to the same level as RN's for hemodynamic monitoring and carry additional skills that they acquired in the prehospital environment. In fact, there are programs specifically for the training of CC Paramedics.

We are all aware that there is quite a bit of tension between EMS personnel and nurses. Part of this is because the nurses, and their political lobbies, always assume, nay, assert, that they are superior to paramedics. Where does this originate? Why is it perpetuated? The "Laws" keeping EMS personnel out of hospitals that you refer to were pressed by the nursing lobby, it has no relevance to ones qualifications, only to the political power that the nursing lobby exerts to maintain, and expand, a monopoly. My home state recently enacted laws that allows paramedics to function in any environment (Homes, hospitals, Dr's offices, etc.). The problem arises because the nursing associations create the rules for the hospital. Thus, most paramedics cannot use their skills when they enter a hospital.

I don't mean to start an ugly debate, and I do feel that a nurse/paramedic team is ideal. However, the arrogant belief that nurses are the only ones that can be properly trained in critical care needs to be reevaluated.
 
mikecwru said:
Re: "pre-hospital care"

The helicopter crews do not extricate the patient. The fire departments do that. On a "scene" run there are certain pre-hospital elements such as intubating someone in a field with poor lighting, working with only a two person team, etc, but whether the RN/MD know how to cut someone out of a car is inconsequential.

mike

Not to continue a pissing match, but I did say the "Least" of which is vehicle extrication. And do not assume that fire departments are the only ones that extricate, EMS did it where I am from. Being in a car and lines and an an airway while metal is being pryed away from the patient is probably one of those things you get comfortable with only after experience. Knowing what they are doing probably helps as it is often the person on the inside that helps direct the extrication...

Your EMT analogy is not a good one. I never said anything about putting LPNs on choppers. I do not consider RNs to have recieved higher training than paramedics, only trained differently.
 
Our EM program has a strong EMS experience spearheaded by Dr. Fales and we recently acquired a 2006 Durango that will serve as a Medical Control Vehicle so that residents can respond to EMS scenes and assist as medical control. We also just received a multi-million dollar grant to further expand our Bio-terroism research and to spread our simulator training into the community. Currently, we assist in training the EMS personnel with our simulators which include two adult, a child and two sim-baby simulators from Laerdal. We also have an ultrasound simulator and have just starting searching for a labor/delivery simulator to augment our learning.
 
Come now, H, why did you want to go and inject Evidence into an EBM discussion (Emotion Based Medicine)?

Take care,
Jeff
 
Jeff698 said:
Come now, H, why did you want to go and inject Evidence into an EBM discussion (Emotion Based Medicine)?

Take care,
Jeff


:laugh:


Anyway.....thanks for the level-headed response praetorian. I had no idea that RT's intubate and such. I guess I've mostly worked in academic centers where ET tubes are fought over immensely and RT's just aren't an option. Maybe if the senior, junior, intern, senior medical student, attending etc.....is dead or something. (I'm being sarcastic), but seriuosly RT's role is limited.

I've also worked at one community place where they were probably even more under-utilized. albuterol nebs/pfts/vent in ED exclusively. no other role.

glad to hear that RT's can do other things. It would make sense for an RT who had prehospital experience to make a nice flight crew guy/gal.

anyway........as FF pointed out it don't matter a lick who you got on the whirly bird (in my best redneck).

later
 
You have to be careful, the first article compares RN/RN to RN/medic which doesn't add anything to the debate of whether RNs deliver a higher level of care than medics. The Maryland related articles seem almost like fluff pieces. The utility of the helicopter is debatable and just anecdotally, we all know it can be missued, but remember, the helicopter services operate as businesses, and a lot of them I see aren't in the business of refusing transports.

I know when someone cuts and pastes a dozen articles in these forums, people act like it's the end-all-be-all, but you actually have to critique the articles and see if they're answering your question in the first place.

Oh well, this will go nowhere . . .

mike


FoughtFyr said:
O.k., crew composition doesn't matter:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11805762&query_hl=22

Additionally, Maryland has had great success with medic/medic crews (each is actually a cop too, they fly armed):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10724739&query_hl=10

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15715519&query_hl=8

That said, I think the larger discussion (since this thread has been officially hijacked) is the utility of helicopter transport altogether.

Two papers for aeromedical transport are here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10589149&query_hl=2

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10724739&query_hl=2

One that suggests there might be some utility, but concludes further research is needed to identify populations who benefit is here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9420109&query_hl=2

This one dealing with pediatric patients found that there was a benefit for patients who truly required, but also found that 85% of calls in their study did not require the resources of the aeromedical team:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8863261&query_hl=2

And lastly, here is an intersting paper that examined the effects of discontinuing a hospital based aeromedical program. The findings? No significant increase in transport times or patient mortality from trauma. See:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11901324&query_hl=2

- H
 
mikecwru said:
You have to be careful, the first article compares RN/RN to RN/medic which doesn't add anything to the debate of whether RNs deliver a higher level of care than medics.

Umm, no, actually the debate started when you opined that applicants should preference programs where the aircrews were always nurse/physician.
mikecwru said:
"Regarding flight, you want to find a program where the residents aren't observers, aren't a tradeout for a position usually held by a paramedic. You want a truly 100% of the time MD/RN team."

I then questioned why this (a 100% MD/RN team) matters (BTW - that is a viewpoint I still niether understand nor agree with). This then degenerated into a discussion of the "ideal" crew composition, a subject about which little is published. However, given the military experience of medics only (granted a different scenario) and the Maryland experience (see below) I don't know that there is an effective arguement for ANY given crew composition. That said, I think this is probably more related to the relative inability to define what assistance (other than rapid transport) that an aircrew offer any patient and if that intervention is truly expidently lifesaving (also see below)

mikecwru said:
The Maryland related articles seem almost like fluff pieces.

One certainly is, the other is a bit of both marketing and science. But I think that the fact that the Maryland medic/medic aircrews do not have a substainaly worse patient care record than other services argues that medics can safely man airmedical crews.

mikecwru said:
The utility of the helicopter is debatable and just anecdotally, we all know it can be missued, but remember, the helicopter services operate as businesses, and a lot of them I see aren't in the business of refusing transports.

Shopping mall based spiral CTs are also a business. And despite anecdotal cases of "saves", they are still of dubious utility. My personal belief (based on the available literature) is that, outside of search and rescue or wilderness areas, there exists a very small subset of patients for whom helicopter EMS is helpful. However, that population is difficult to define, and comprises a significant minority of air medical missions. This complicates any analysis of aircrew effectiveness as a majority of patients do not require services or intervention where a difference in skill level would be detectable.

mikecwru said:
I know when someone cuts and pastes a dozen articles in these forums, people act like it's the end-all-be-all, but you actually have to critique the articles and see if they're answering your question in the first place.

Actually, the first article did get to the question at hand (at least as well as any available research can). After that I do believe I said:
FoughtFyr said:
"That said, I think the larger discussion (since this thread has been officially hijacked) is the utility of helicopter transport altogether."
Thus posing a new question for which the papers I cited provide a solid, multiple viewpoint, background for discussion.

mikecwru said:
Oh well, this will go nowhere . . .

No doubt since someone apparently pi$$ed in your cheerios this morning. Here's to hoping you are having a better day Mike.

- H
 
12R34Y said:
:laugh:


Anyway.....thanks for the level-headed response praetorian. I had no idea that RT's intubate and such. I guess I've mostly worked in academic centers where ET tubes are fought over immensely and RT's just aren't an option. Maybe if the senior, junior, intern, senior medical student, attending etc.....is dead or something. (I'm being sarcastic), but seriuosly RT's role is limited.

I've also worked at one community place where they were probably even more under-utilized. albuterol nebs/pfts/vent in ED exclusively. no other role.

glad to hear that RT's can do other things. It would make sense for an RT who had prehospital experience to make a nice flight crew guy/gal.

anyway........as FF pointed out it don't matter a lick who you got on the whirly bird (in my best redneck).

later
Yes, that underutilization is a major sore point with many RT's resulting in gross insecurity, which is not helped by the fact that RT was not a first career choice for many (a lot of nursing school washouts wind up as RT's). The lack of professionalism among RT's and their gross unwillingness to accept their place in the medical hierarchy is one reason I left the field full time (although I am starting to do PRN shifts again for extra cash- $25 an hour to do nebs ain't a bad gig, so long as you aren't doing it every day 😉 :laugh: ).
 
I think the reason that people who are interested in EMS, and specifically flight experience, would prefer a residency with a flight program that's always RN or medic + MD is because then your role as a physician on a flight is more set. I personally wouldn't want to feel like i'm walking into a fire department, throwing on a fire hat, and playing firefighter for the day... if i'm going to be involved in flight programs, i want it to be something that I do on a regular basis, and not where i'm just subbing in occasionally for a nurse. So, I don't think that this 'desire' has so much to do with which is best for patients (all of which is debatable), but rather what's best for the resident's experience. At least that's my take.
 
quideam said:
I think the reason that people who are interested in EMS, and specifically flight experience, would prefer a residency with a flight program that's always RN or medic + MD is because then your role as a physician on a flight is more set. I personally wouldn't want to feel like i'm walking into a fire department, throwing on a fire hat, and playing firefighter for the day... if i'm going to be involved in flight programs, i want it to be something that I do on a regular basis, and not where i'm just subbing in occasionally for a nurse. So, I don't think that this 'desire' has so much to do with which is best for patients (all of which is debatable), but rather what's best for the resident's experience. At least that's my take.

But where I am a resident we simply do not have the resident manpower to allow for 100% helicopter coverage. So what?!? When we are on the helicopter our role is set. The other flight team members know that on these shifts a resident flies. On others it is a medic or nurse. All of our flight team members (MD, RN, or EMT-P) are interchangable. There are no procedures "reserved" for any skill level. As for the residents, we definately do the "hands-on" stuff when flying (tubes, etc.) Each resident flies 2-3 shifts per month when in the ED. So it is definately NOT "walking into a fire department, throwing on a fire hat, and playing firefighter for the day". We train for a month of orientation and complete the same "new employee" checklists that flight EMT-Ps and flight RNs complete during our EMS month in PGY-1. After that, we fly. It is certainly a great deal more involved than the "playing dress-up" you seem to make it out to be. I would agree that "observational" shifts on a helicopter are a different matter, but being involved in a program with sporadic flight physician coverage I can tell you that you are misinformed as to the dynamics and the operations of this type of system.

BTW - have you considered that several of the programs with "100%" MD/RN teams are occasionally staffed by attendings or non-resident moonlighters from outside institutions? It would seem to me that the organizational psychology of "well you are just a resident" would be a lot more difficult to overcome. Granted, several programs are resident/fellow only on the 'bird, but others are not.

All of this debate aside, I've got to say that I still find ED shifts far more valuable to my education than flight shifts (more multi-tasking and greater # of patients).

- H
 
FoughtFyr said:
But where I am a resident we simply do not have the resident manpower to allow for 100% helicopter coverage. So what?!? When we are on the helicopter our role is set. The other flight team members know that on these shifts a resident flies. On others it is a medic or nurse. All of our flight team members (MD, RN, or EMT-P) are interchangable. There are no procedures "reserved" for any skill level. As for the residents, we definately do the "hands-on" stuff when flying (tubes, etc.) Each resident flies 2-3 shifts per month when in the ED. So it is definately NOT "walking into a fire department, throwing on a fire hat, and playing firefighter for the day". We train for a month of orientation and complete the same "new employee" checklists that flight EMT-Ps and flight RNs complete during our EMS month in PGY-1. After that, we fly. It is certainly a great deal more involved than the "playing dress-up" you seem to make it out to be. I would agree that "observational" shifts on a helicopter are a different matter, but being involved in a program with sporadic flight physician coverage I can tell you that you are mis-informed as to the dynamics and the operations of this type of system.

BTW - have you considered that several of the programs with "100%" MD/RN teams are occasionally staffed by attendings or non-resident moonlighters from outside institutions? It would seem to me that the organizational psychology of "well you are just a resident" would be a lot more difficault to overcome. Granted, several programs are resident/fellow only on the 'bird, but others are not.

All of this debate aside, I've got to say that I still find ED shifts far more valuable to my education than flight shifts (more multi-tasking and greater # of patients).

- H
FoughtFyr, thank you for the response - when you explain it that way, then you're right, not having full MD/RN or medic coverage doesn't seem to be a problem. I believe the purpose of this thread was to figure out which programs have "real" (non-ride-along) and significant (at least a few shifts a month for at least a year or two) experiences for people interested in that sort of thing - and your program seems to fit that bill, so... great.

Also, if anyone knows: I asked a while back about U of Chicago's flight experience - does anyone know anything about it? Have any experience with it? Thanks!
 
In the Medical College of Wisconsin/Froedtert EM program, the EM-2 and EM-3's staff Flight for Life as part of a RN/MD crew. I beleive the residents staff 07-19 with a RN/EMT-P crew from 19-07.
 
Top Bottom