Agree, but that doesn't really answer the question of who will it affect because the class of 2013 applies now before the rule, but transitions to PGY-2 as the rule comes into effect. The delayed enforcement, in my interpretation, was why it has a 2014 start date and doesn't start immediately. Still doesn't answer my question of how this impacts this year's matching class. I'm assuming all will be ok. I just prefer not to have to assume anything.
Email the acgme regarding new changes!
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Agree, but that doesn't really answer the question of who will it affect because the class of 2013 applies now before the rule, but transitions to PGY-2 as the rule comes into effect. The delayed enforcement, in my interpretation, was why it has a 2014 start date and doesn't start immediately. Still doesn't answer my question of how this impacts this year's matching class. I'm assuming all will be ok. I just prefer not to have to assume anything.
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deleted103644
What does it really matter? Either it will happen and you should focus on ACGME residencies, or it won't and you should focus on ACGME residencies.
Yes, that's been my plan all along. My post and question was regarding internships.
My plan was to apply to AOA TRI's and advanced PGY-2 PM&R spots just as osteopathic students and residents have for years. I'm older and have a wife and kids....being able to do the TRI would be more feasible (geographically, cost etc...) than finding an MD transitional program.
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deleted103644
It might be tough, but it's just one year.
Also, why limit it to TYs?
If geographical/family limitations exist, throw in prelims. They're tougher, but again it's only 1 year.
And I don't think there's been any mention of prelim years here. I actually didn't know you could do a DO prelim + an MD residency.
Also, why limit it to TYs?
If geographical/family limitations exist, throw in prelims. They're tougher, but again it's only 1 year.
And I don't think there's been any mention of prelim years here. I actually didn't know you could do a DO prelim + an MD residency.
All those who are interested in following the progress of this between the AOA and ACGME can follow the following timeline:
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/acgme-policy-timeline.aspx
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/acgme-policy-timeline.aspx
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I am still confused as to what leverage the AOA actually has here.... Aside from PR I am surprised the ACGME hasnt just barred them out with something as simple as a secret hand shake 
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deleted103644
I am still confused as to what leverage the AOA actually has here.... Aside from PR I am surprised the ACGME hasnt just barred them out with something as simple as a secret hand shake
Meh, AOA has a small influence on the AMA, which has a moderate influence on the ACGME. Also, some hospitals have both MD and DO residencies.
Aside from that you're right.
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I am still confused as to what leverage the AOA actually has here.... Aside from PR I am surprised the ACGME hasnt just barred them out with something as simple as a secret hand shake
I'll make it simple,
As of right now the ACGME still has a surplus of positions compared to how many students they have entering residencies. ~23,000 slots for 15,600 matching U.S M.D students. This *may* not be an issue, however, if a residency slot goes unmatched for 3 years it loses it's funding. As of now, the ACGME needs D.O and Caribbean students to help fill their programs or they will lose funding. D.O students help out the ACGME more than people realize. (and obviously the ACGME helps out many D.O students as well)
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Also, depending on where you want to be, and what specialty you're looking at, this is pretty crappy advice. However, I can't say I'm surprised it's your opinion.
Edit - Clarification, you may not want to tell someone to focus specifically on ACGME residencies if they're a D.O student looking at ENT, Optho, Ortho, Derm, Surgery programs. That would be awful advice.
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Uro too. They take like 2-3 DOs per year, but there are 19 or 20 spots in AOA.
Since the approval of this entire ordeal is pending would it be safe to say that current DO students graduating in 2013 can enter AOA traditional year and have it approved? I don't want to do the AOA year and get pushed away from the PGY-2 ACGME residency come July 1, 2014.
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Why doesn't the AOA initiate a movement to get all osteopathic residencies (yes, all of them, in every single specialty, ranging from ENT to Pediatrics) dually accredited by the ACGME?
That would solve this problem and any other future issues...right?
That would solve this problem and any other future issues...right?
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deleted103644
Because...
1) Many DO residencies would not be able to meet ACGME requirements.
2) This would essentially shut DOs out of competitive specialties (except for those competitive enough to get into an ACGME residency anyway).
3) It would eliminate the need for AOA accreditation at all. If everyone could get ACGME accreditation, why would they bother with AOA since DOs can already apply to ACGME programs.
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Sept. 6, 2012 The AOA-ACGME Joint Task Force met once again in continuing discussions to seek the withdrawal or amendment of proposed Common Program Requirements. Discussion centered on the future of graduate medical education accreditation, including the possibility of a common accreditation system that accredits allopathic and osteopathic GME programs and preserves osteopathic access to current ACGME programs. These meetings have been mutually respectful and we are hopeful that we can preserve DOs access to ACGME programs when the ACGME Board meets to decide the issue on Sept. 28-29. AOA Trustee Boyd R. Buser, DO, will testify at the ACGME Board meeting.
Yup yup still meeting, still meeting, but don't fear! The AOA is working for you! Even if this is somehow withdrawn or amended to not affect DOs, somehow the AOA will consider this progress. When really, it is preventing a screw up that shouldn't have occurred in the first place.
Yup yup still meeting, still meeting, but don't fear! The AOA is working for you! Even if this is somehow withdrawn or amended to not affect DOs, somehow the AOA will consider this progress. When really, it is preventing a screw up that shouldn't have occurred in the first place.
No.
"These meetings have been mutually respectful and we are hopeful that we can preserve DOs' access to ACGME programs when the ACGME Board meets to decide the issue on Sept. 28-29."
Really hoping it doesn't pass
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Beat ya! )P
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Just a few more days till a decision is made. Will drastically affect what I do as far as interviews go, lets hope something gets posted soon.
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deleted103644
Why? You should be aiming for ACGME residencies regardless.
Not necessarily. For gas/rads possibly. But for everything else, aoa residencies will not adversely affect your job outlook.
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He's going EM with possiblity of fellowship after, hence his interest.
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It's about fellowship interest, which affects most fields.
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Interestingly enough, some fellows were discussing this issue with the med students on my rotation at lunch today and it seemed like they totally misunderstood everything...they were trying to tell the students that the ACGME was going to completely cut off DO access to all allo residencies by 2015.
This didn't sound right and I suspected they had misunderstood something, but several med students left the cafeteria visibly panicked (and rightfully so). Glad to check here and see that this concerns the internship issue and not access to residencies in general (not that this isn't also a serious problem).
This didn't sound right and I suspected they had misunderstood something, but several med students left the cafeteria visibly panicked (and rightfully so). Glad to check here and see that this concerns the internship issue and not access to residencies in general (not that this isn't also a serious problem).
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deleted103644
That's probably the end game, it will take awhile though. Fellowships first (residencies won't happen until more MD schools open).
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Nothing against those fellas (see what I did there?) but they're already in fellowships and have no skin in the game. They have no reason to be up to date on it and are just misinformed. And like any other workplace, you're experiencing workplace rumors!
Don't believe anything you hear from anyone (including me right now) until you verify it from an outside an unbiased (that eliminates a poster above, doesn't it?) source.
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Current fellows, particularly those that have just started, have everything to lose it seems to me. If this passes they might not be able to finish their fellowships...is there any wording in this thing that protects current fellows?
Believe it or not this whole ordeal has caused push-back for some DO graduates pursuing fellowships this year. Programs are unsure as to whether they would be able to finish their fellowships after starting or not.
Believe it or not this whole ordeal has caused push-back for some DO graduates pursuing fellowships this year. Programs are unsure as to whether they would be able to finish their fellowships after starting or not.
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Well the decision was supposed to be made yesterday or today, havent heard jack and in this case no news is likely bad news. Hope i am wrong.
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Quote: "It is important to note that the proposals will NOT exclude any person with current eligibility for ACGME-accredited training due to the type of undergraduate medical education. Graduates of US allopathic schools, osteopathic schools, and foreign medical schools who satisfy ECFMG requirements will continue to be eligible to enter programs in accredited specialties with the prerequisite clinical training upon completion of that training in an ACGME- or RCPSC- accredited program."
Not to turn this into a law debate but current fellows will be grandfathered. They even mention further down that there will be a 1-2 year delay so residents on the cusp of entering their fellowship don't get boned.
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Good deal.
However, I can tell you for a fact that current seniors are feeling resistance when applying for fellowships. Even if they would be grandfathered in, a number of programs don't want to take the chance or deal with any technicalities and are not as inviting as they once were.
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Yeah that sucks. Just adds another layer of pain-in-the-ass to the process. I don't envy people who are just graduated or about to graduate. At least the rest of us will have a definitive (hopefully) set of criteria to follow to still get into ACGME slots.
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Yes..if this decision is made soon we will know what we are getting ourselves into.
Those of us who are considering both AOA and ACGME residency programs are in a precarious position with interview season upon us. Talk about a last minute decision, lol. I know sylvanthus has mentioned this a few times.
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Yeah you almost need to have plan A and plan B rankings for the match. If the final decision is good, enter match-list A. If it's the bad decision, enter match-list B!
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Yep. Just another level of stress to this incredibly stressful process. fml. Kinda wish I was an allo student right now so I didn't have to think about all this ****. Not ashamed to be a DO by any means....but this is such BS.
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I figured the best plan was to just apply to both DO and MD programs, get a bunch of interviews set-up on both sides and just start canceling later on.
I really feel for my classmates who didnt take USMLE and are shooting for IM. Chances are good they will end up in a DO IM program and then be limited for fellowships later on.
I really feel for my classmates who didnt take USMLE and are shooting for IM. Chances are good they will end up in a DO IM program and then be limited for fellowships later on.
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Precisely
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Just checked the AOA homepage where they were discussing this whole fiasco and there was an email link to ask questions. Sent them an email to see if there is an update from yesterday or today. I don't really expect to hear anything back from them anytime soon, but thought it wouldnt hurt to shoot out an email.
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realistically, what are your guys' thoughts the outcome of this decision is going to be?
as a student that is entering a DO school next year, I am not sure if I am going to be in a favorable or unfavorable position. on one hand, this could result in the AOA to finally get their **** together and up their accreditation standards. on the other hand, I could lose out on fellowships and future residency possibilities.
I am really hoping for the former.
It seems DOs aiming for competitive specialties in the AOA would be least affected by this.
as a student that is entering a DO school next year, I am not sure if I am going to be in a favorable or unfavorable position. on one hand, this could result in the AOA to finally get their **** together and up their accreditation standards. on the other hand, I could lose out on fellowships and future residency possibilities.
I am really hoping for the former.
It seems DOs aiming for competitive specialties in the AOA would be least affected by this.
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It will take decades for the AOA to get their **** together. I would enter the MD match if this goes through and then not worry about it.
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Just FYI, regardless of the outcome of this resolution, for one to be even eligible to sit for ABIM subspecialty board exam one has to be ABIM certified in IM (i.e. must have completed an ACGME IM residency). Therefore, although theoretically an AOA trained internist can go to an ACGME IM subspecialty fellowship, they will never be eligible to become board certified, at least not by ABIM (i.e. it would be pointless). This has nothing to do with ACGME or this particular resolution and it's an ABIM rule which has been the case for many, many years (if not forever). This doesn't apply to all fellowships but applies to all IM subspecialties.
In all honesty, if this passes, FOR THE MOST PART (with limited exception) the only people who are effected are people who do AOA internship before going into advance ACGME residencies (e.g. PM&R/Gas/etc.). Practically, very few people can get into any competitive ACGME fellowship from AOA residency. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but is fairly rare.
Also, there are plenty of people who end up at competitive ACGME places without taking USMLE. I'm not commenting regarding taking or not taking USMLE, just saying that opinions on SDN is a bit skewed on this subject.
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This is catastrophic to surgery. Many DO graduates pursue ACGME fellowships in Vascular, plastics, critical care, trauma, etc.....
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Is the USMLE required for IM nowadays?
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Nawww not required, but recommended at a lot of programs and I would imagine some programs wouldnt even look at COMLEX. So, it is probably program dependent. Better to keep ones options open and just do it.
Well we heard nothing today. Shocker? Anyone surprised?
Well we heard nothing today. Shocker? Anyone surprised?
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deleted103644
Why? Holding residencies to higher accreditation standards is a good thing.
If an AOA residency meets the qualifications, they can become dual accredited with the ACGME.
If they can't, it's reasonable to exclude them from fellowships.
Can't argue here
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Just to be clear, as I have stated in other posts, I have zero interest in arguing (or discussing anything) with Johnny boy as s/he has multiple times let us all know what s/he thinks of our education and also b/c of his blatant bias against the osteopathic profession...
I'm just posting so others aren't mislead!
As if all ACGME programs have higher standards than AOA programs. There are many AOA programs that are of higher quality than many ACGME programs. There are obviously great ACGME programs that blow AOA programs away but those are not universal therefore, it's not the accreditation standards as standards by definition should be universal for all accredited programs.
It's not just the program being "accredited". Each agency accredits # of spots. Therefore, for one to graduate from a dually accredited program their individual spot must have been accredited by both ACGME and AOA. There are multiple programs that have dual accreditation but the program is not truly dually accredited (i.e. people matching AOA will only get AOA credit and those matching ACGME will only get ACGME credit, even though the program has dual accreditation). Therefore gaining simple accreditation will not circumvent the effects of this resolution if it passes. The truly dually accredited programs (ones that you get AOA and ACGME credit for the same residency) have to pay double the fees and deal with double the BS to accredit each dually accredited spot which is pointless for any decent program (both on AOA side and ACGME side) because they already fill with very qualified applicants. That's why for the most part truly dually accredited programs lack in quality because they are usually originally ACGME programs that gained AOA accreditation in order to use their "dual accreditation" to lure DOs who would've otherwise not even apply to their programs. Again this is not a universal rule but is true for the most part.
I'm just posting so others aren't mislead!As if all ACGME programs have higher standards than AOA programs. There are many AOA programs that are of higher quality than many ACGME programs. There are obviously great ACGME programs that blow AOA programs away but those are not universal therefore, it's not the accreditation standards as standards by definition should be universal for all accredited programs.
It's not just the program being "accredited". Each agency accredits # of spots. Therefore, for one to graduate from a dually accredited program their individual spot must have been accredited by both ACGME and AOA. There are multiple programs that have dual accreditation but the program is not truly dually accredited (i.e. people matching AOA will only get AOA credit and those matching ACGME will only get ACGME credit, even though the program has dual accreditation). Therefore gaining simple accreditation will not circumvent the effects of this resolution if it passes. The truly dually accredited programs (ones that you get AOA and ACGME credit for the same residency) have to pay double the fees and deal with double the BS to accredit each dually accredited spot which is pointless for any decent program (both on AOA side and ACGME side) because they already fill with very qualified applicants. That's why for the most part truly dually accredited programs lack in quality because they are usually originally ACGME programs that gained AOA accreditation in order to use their "dual accreditation" to lure DOs who would've otherwise not even apply to their programs. Again this is not a universal rule but is true for the most part.
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