Emergency and FM

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MB333999

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hey guys,

just wondering, if I pursue an EM specialty would I be able to practice at a family practice as well?? For ex: work 3 days/week in ED and 1 day/week at a family practice?

It's possible to do that in Canada so im just wondering if its the same down south.

thanks
 
It's possible in Canada because you do FM first, then a few more years in EM (from the one pathway with which I'm familiar - and, as the certification goes, it's "CCFP-EM"). There may be a second, EM-only pathway in Canada, but I'm not sure.

As EM does not do specific "primary care" (even if functionally true in practice in the ED), you can't really do it (although, individually, whatever anyone can convince another to accept is the end-all).
 
It's possible in Canada because you do FM first, then a few more years in EM (from the one pathway with which I'm familiar - and, as the certification goes, it's "CCFP-EM"). There may be a second, EM-only pathway in Canada, but I'm not sure.

As EM does not do specific "primary care" (even if functionally true in practice in the ED), you can't really do it (although, individually, whatever anyone can convince another to accept is the end-all).

ah okay, so in the states i technically would have to do both residencies. bummer lol
 
It's possible in Canada because you do FM first, then a few more years in EM (from the one pathway with which I'm familiar - and, as the certification goes, it's "CCFP-EM"). There may be a second, EM-only pathway in Canada, but I'm not sure.

As EM does not do specific "primary care" (even if functionally true in practice in the ED), you can't really do it (although, individually, whatever anyone can convince another to accept is the end-all).

Canada does indeed have a 2nd, EM only pathway. The CCFP-EM pathway produces more docs, but the Royal College also certifies EM physicians after a 5 year residency. I don't personally work with anyone who has done the Royal College program but the CCFP-EM people are great docs.
BTW. it's not a few years after family medicine, it's one. You do your 2 year FM residency and then do one year of EM training afterwards.
The 3rd pathway, the one I'm taking, is you finish the FM portion of the residency, work for a few years and then challenge the exam. In a couple of years I too will be CCFP-EM certified and the only way to tell the difference between me and my colleagues who did the extra year will be to ask.
Fun, no?
Cheers,
M
 
One option would be to work as an EM physician and volunteer in a free clinic one day per week. They'd be happy to have you and it would be a nice mix of urgent care and primary care. Pretty sure it wouldn't be considered going out of your scope of practice since a lot of different specialties work in free clinics.

Thats my plan someday anyway, no one seemed to think it was impossible when I used to talk about it.
 
Canada does indeed have a 2nd, EM only pathway. The CCFP-EM pathway produces more docs, but the Royal College also certifies EM physicians after a 5 year residency. I don't personally work with anyone who has done the Royal College program but the CCFP-EM people are great docs.
BTW. it's not a few years after family medicine, it's one. You do your 2 year FM residency and then do one year of EM training afterwards.
The 3rd pathway, the one I'm taking, is you finish the FM portion of the residency, work for a few years and then challenge the exam. In a couple of years I too will be CCFP-EM certified and the only way to tell the difference between me and my colleagues who did the extra year will be to ask.
Fun, no?
Cheers,
M

is there an equivalent pathway to the 2 year FM and 1 year ER in the states??? or is it just that 5 year program?? Thanks for the info btw!

@dueist
I can really see myself in ED but I also want some continuity of care in some of my practice.

@alwaysangel
Yes this is certainly a possibility. Although i will be honest, I would rather get payed if possible 😛
 
The only way to do emergency medicine the accredited way in the states is to do an EM residency. There are some family medicine departments that offer "emergency medicine" fellowships, but these programs are unaccredited and won't help you land a job outside of rural areas.

We have a enough frequent fliers that I already have continuity of care. Also, you can always call your patients after their ED visit to check up on them. My residency requires us to do so and I've heard of other programs that do the same. (Does anyone know if follow up is an RRC requirement?)
 
Canada does indeed have a 2nd, EM only pathway. The CCFP-EM pathway produces more docs, but the Royal College also certifies EM physicians after a 5 year residency. I don't personally work with anyone who has done the Royal College program but the CCFP-EM people are great docs.
BTW. it's not a few years after family medicine, it's one. You do your 2 year FM residency and then do one year of EM training afterwards.
The 3rd pathway, the one I'm taking, is you finish the FM portion of the residency, work for a few years and then challenge the exam. In a couple of years I too will be CCFP-EM certified and the only way to tell the difference between me and my colleagues who did the extra year will be to ask.
Fun, no?
Cheers,
M

Oh, I thought it was 3+2 for the CCFP pathway; I didn't know it was 2+1. I only ever met one guy that was CCFP-EM - he was an absolutely, unremitting ******* to me and other EMS folks, but, when I returned as a med student, his attitude completely changed towards me, and he didn't recognize me.

So why would someone do a 5 year EM program, when they could do 3 years through the CCFP scheme?
 
Wow. 2 years FM and 1 year EM and be certified in both? That seems kinda crazy. I am not sure 2 years would be enough (for me) to be comfortable in FM, let alone being comfortable in EM after 1 year. 1 year! And then you may be the sole attending somewhere with a difficult airway, or a trauma, or a very sick septic patient or just someone you don't quite know what to do with...
 
kool thanks, are these programs competitive or average?

I don't have any direct knowledge of these programs, but I would guess they are more competitive than FM but much less competitive than EM (since most EM-inclined folks would rather pull out their fingernails with a pair of pliers than spend a significant amount of time in FM clinic).
 
Wow. 2 years FM and 1 year EM and be certified in both? That seems kinda crazy. I am not sure 2 years would be enough (for me) to be comfortable in FM, let alone being comfortable in EM after 1 year. 1 year! And then you may be the sole attending somewhere with a difficult airway, or a trauma, or a very sick septic patient or just someone you don't quite know what to do with...

Fortunately, I got a lot of experience with this scenario in my residency since I did a 4 month stretch in a remote hospital up north. After my 1st month I did call on my own with the attending a 20 minute drive away (if the roads were good); I could call for help if I got into trouble (and sometimes the nurses would call anticipating trouble) but I always knew I was on my own for the 1st 20 minutes or more if the doc wasn't there when I got there. I also did 4 rotations through the ED and one through anaesthetics to prepare for what awaited after residency (I used all my electives for either EM or gas).
As an attending I worked in one of the shops with double cover for the 1st couple of months so I was able to ask qustions if I wasn't sure what to do. Our guys are very supportive of each other and even the guys with 20+ years experience will sometimes talk over a case before making a decision, so answering noobs' questions is seen as an extension of that professional courtesy. I also did my 1st FP locum in a group practice and would occasionally walk down the hallway to ask one of the other docs what to do. I still occasionally leave a note for my partner asking for advice (he's been in practice for over 40 years so hasn't reciprocated yet).
My 1st night as a single cover attending (in an emerg a good 20 minutes away from the regional centre by ambulance - if you can get an ambulance) was a little scarey, and there are some things that still make my pulse race, but we have pretty good back-up here and my residency prepared me well for what I was going into. Our docs are also pretty good at teaching on the job, and I have done a lot of extra CME since I finished to cover some of the gaps in my knowledge base. Oh, and our chief gave me his cell number and told me to call him day or night if I didn't know what to do and needed advice. I never used the number, but it made me feel better having it and permission to wake him up in the middle of the night (or day).
As to why people do the 5 year program, if you are sure you want EM, the 5 year EM residency is a surer path if you get it. You know from the start that you have the EM training you need. If you do FP, you may or may not match into a 3rd year EM program as there are few spots and they are highly competitive. If you don't get one of these spots your options are to work for a year and try again or give up (or, if you work in an odd shop like mine in an out of the way province that is seriously resource poor, work EM anyway). There is also a perception that if you want to work in an academic setting you should do the 5 year program, and I have heard med students say that they thought in time the 2+1 program people would be disadvantaged (i.e. not allowed to work in high acuity settings). I used to worry about that but I've stopped giving it any thought at all. Unless we have a serious surplus of docs in Canada in my lifetime I have job security, and I can't really see that happening.
Sorry this is so long. Y'all know I babble when I'm tired. Cheers,
M
 
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