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English med programs in Europe and quality ranking

bidiboom

Full Member
Jul 13, 2011
287
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    I was considering to open threads about the English med programs in Europe. But after all of my observations about americans, I decided to suspend it. For more than a month now, I learned that there was a business in which americans got together with some Indians and some communist traces of Poland, and they were trying to defraud the moneys of american med prospectives (some $200-300K). If there happens any objection, they immediately suppress. Actually its a pretty limited business, but its definitely a business which is run over prospective americans who look for med schools abroad.

    The point that bothers me is that, all along this time neither in ValueMD, the place in which this business is run, nor in SDN, in which its observed (and highly populated by american med students/prospectives/grads), no one , 1 , o-n-e , single american had an objection for this! They are pretty insensitive and careless for each other. There must be an honorable American to have a reaction for this in this world, but amazingly I didnt see him or her yet.

    Until I see that honorable American who has an objection for this business and stands up for other americans, I decided not to help any american from now on, all along my life, in anything.

    PS: If I got the thinking pattern of americans, they will think again that I try to incite the people against of ValueMD. Feel free. I still will be waiting for that American to share the heartbeat of a Muslim Turk for those kids.
     
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    jf1987

    c/o 2016
    Jan 26, 2012
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    Jerusalem, Israel
    1. Pre-Medical
      There must be an honorable American to have a reaction for this in this world, but amazingly I didnt see him or her yet.

      Until I see that honorable American ........ I decided not to help any american from now on, all along my life, in anything.

      to share the heartbeat of a Muslim Turk for those kids.

      Wow. The treatment of Armenians, Kurds and North Cyprus come to mind. But yes, Muslim Turks need to teach us evil selfish Americans how to empathize because clearly zero Americans know how as proved on the internet. Generalizing is stupid and immature.
       
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      bidiboom

      Full Member
      Jul 13, 2011
      287
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        Wow. The treatment of Armenians, Kurds and North Cyprus come to mind. But yes, Muslim Turks need to teach us evil selfish Americans how to empathize because clearly zero Americans know how as proved on the internet. Generalizing is stupid and immature.

        If you read history you see how the facts and fictions are different. As careless people, you are easily driven and used by lobbies for the benefits of specific communities. In North Cyprus the Greeks were making ethnic cleansing for years, not the Turks. Armenians too for 25 years have organized and killed systematically tens of tousands of non-Armenian civilians in Ottoman soils just to open a ground for them to set up an Armenia. As for Kurds, the totalitarian streak of Turkey killed them, not us, and we still condemn those guys. It was like the communist era of Russia.

        You know what, I had a serious respect on Americans and I wasnt hiding behind the cliche wrong doings of "some Americans". I was thinking there were good guys and bad guys everywhere. US has an honorable history (albeit it has its own shames too like ethnic cleansings, discrimination for coloured people.. ).

        But the real, todays americans, not the mobsters, the junk or drunk ones, but the med prospectives/med students/med grads both in ValueMD and SDN made me see in time how todays american is. As long as you get your own satisfactions, you simply dont care others, even if those are your own brothers. All along those months, they saw, knew, but not even one single american cared the other in a dangerous situation!!

        If only there was an American..
         
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        Poisson

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          If you read history you see how the facts and fictions are different. As careless people, you are easily driven and used by lobbies for the benefits of specific communities. In North Cyprus the Greeks were making ethnic cleansing for years, not the Turks. Armenians too for 25 years have organized and killed systematically tens of tousands of non-Armenian civilians in Ottoman soils just to open a ground for them to set up an Armenia. As for Kurds, the totalitarian streak of Turkey killed them, not us, and we still condemn those guys. It was like the communist era of Russia.

          You know what, I had a serious respect on Americans and I wasnt hiding behind the cliche wrong doings of "some Americans". I was thinking there were good guys and bad guys everywhere. US has an honorable history (albeit it has its own shames too like ethnic cleansings, discrimination for coloured people.. ).

          But the real, todays americans, not the mobsters, the junk or drunk ones, but the med prospectives/med students/med grads both in ValueMD and SDN made me see in time how todays american is. As long as you get your own satisfactions, you simply dont care others, even if those are your own brothers. All along those months, they saw, knew, but not even one single american cared the other in a dangerous situation!!

          If only there was an American..

          Let me share my perspective, first of all I haven't the slightest clue about anything you are talking about, but really the answer is that most Americans really don't understand a lot of middle eastern thought period, especially the extremities of it. My advice to you is, if you are really passionate about your issues, go for it. Personally I am interested in medicine, not politics, helping people with their health. When I get to the point where I can be in practice, that is what I want. You seem to have some other mission, and if that's the case, go for it. I however suggest you reevaluate the way you communicate to the American audience, because you won't get any attention.
           

          jf1987

          c/o 2016
          Jan 26, 2012
          295
          1
          Jerusalem, Israel
          1. Pre-Medical
            In North Cyprus the Greeks were making ethnic cleansing for years, not the Turks.

            According to historian Thomas M. Franck, writing in a volume published by Cambridge University Press:

            Once its objective had been achieved by the collapse of the Greek junta, however, Turkey went on to occupy a disproportionate part of the island, precipitating large-scale ethnic cleansing The UN system, although of necessity positioning its peacekeepers along the resultant line of demarcation forged by events beyond its control, firmly rejected – and, almost three decades later still rejects — the island's forcible partition in violation of the "territorial integrity" endorsed both by the Council and Assembly.

            Since the Turkish invasion, a large number of Turks have been brought to the north from Anatolia in violation of Article 49 of the Geneva Convention and hence a war crime, to occupy the homes of the Greek Cypriot refugees.


            Armenians too for 25 years have organized and killed systematically tens of tousands of non-Armenian civilians in Ottoman soils just to open a ground for them to set up an Armenia.

            It is estimated that one and a half million Armenians perished between 1915 and 1923. There were an estimated two million Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire on the eve of W.W.I. Well over a million were deported in 1915. Hundreds of thousands were butchered outright. Many others died of starvation, exhaustion, and epidemics which ravaged the concentration camps. Among the Armenians living along the periphery of the Ottoman Empire many at first escaped the fate of their countrymen in the central provinces of Turkey.

            Turkey continues to deny that this occurred.

            "We did not commit a crime, therefore we do not need to apologise." - Erdogan in 2008


            As for Kurds, the totalitarian streak of Turkey killed them, not us, and we still condemn those guys. It was like the communist era of Russia.

            Desmond Fernandes, who has worked on the Kurdish Genocide extensively, continued the seminar with a powerful discussion of the persecution of Kurds in modern Turkey. Fernandes pointed out that the Turkish government adopted a much more sustained genocidal program against Kurds, aimed at the assimilation of this community as ethnic Turks. Often the engineers of the destruction of Kurds were the same people who destroyed Armenians a few years earlier. Fernandes outlined the Turkish genocidal policy under the following categories:

            (1) forced assimilation program—banning of the Kurdish language in Turkey, denying the existence of Kurdish history, the forced resettlement of Kurds in non-Kurdish areas of Turkey for assimilation, the indoctrination of Kurds through the Turkish education system, radio and television channels;

            (2) banning of any legitimate opposition to the Turkish government's programs—e.g., Kurdish cultural organisations, political parties, media outlets, etc.; and

            (3) the violent repression of any Kurdish resistance. Hundreds of thousands of Kurds have been murdered by Turkish state authorities over the past eighty years—the Sheykh Said and the Ararat uprisings in the 1920s, the bloody suppression of the Dersim in the 1930s, as well as the PKK campaign in recent years. The Turkish state has imprisoned Kurdish members of the Turkish parliament, various human rights activists, as well as many academics advocating Kurdish rights such as the Turkish sociologist Ismail Besikçi. The Turkish government has also assassinated scores of journalists and intellectuals over the years.

            Until the late 1990s, the Kurds were unable to speak their own language publicly and there are still restrictions defined in the Turkish constitution restricting use of the language in public and political institutions. Today, while cultural rights are still mostly withheld, a seemingly unending economic problem exists in the Kurdish southeastern region of Turkey with unemployment levels reaching as high as 70%. A prime contributor to this problem may be the millions that have been displaced as a result of the ongoing conflict between Kurdish rebels and the Turkish military. In the late 20th century, as many as 4000 villages were destroyed by the Turkish military – according to the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre – causing over 3 million to be displaced with no government compensation.

            I don't think all Turks are bad though. Most are probably great people. I have met some great Turkish people and am a fan of Orhan Pamuk.
             
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            bidiboom

            Full Member
            Jul 13, 2011
            287
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              Its simply good to hear such a voice, I felt I could breathe some oxygen, thank you :)

              According to historian Thomas M. Franck, writing in a volume published by Cambridge University Press:

              Once its objective had been achieved by the collapse of the Greek junta, however, Turkey went on to occupy a disproportionate part of the island, precipitating large-scale ethnic cleansing The UN system, although of necessity positioning its peacekeepers along the resultant line of demarcation forged by events beyond its control, firmly rejected – and, almost three decades later still rejects — the island's forcible partition in violation of the "territorial integrity" endorsed both by the Council and Assembly.

              Since the Turkish invasion, a large number of Turks have been brought to the north from Anatolia in violation of Article 49 of the Geneva Convention and hence a war crime, to occupy the homes of the Greek Cypriot refugees.

              Maybe some wrong information is coming to that part of the world, because I remember like today that Greeks in the island were violating the rules and making ethnic cleansing. Turkey demanded UK to get involved in the situation, and stop raids and murderers, but because UK didnt give any chance that Turkey would get in Cyprus, they left Greek part loose, and they went on and on to arm the Greeks of Northern region. So Turkey had to get involved in the situation directly and had to invade. The invasion happened with all of a sudden attack and it was impossible to make an ethnic cleansing, even if Turks would want to do it(I dont say that they wanted to do it, the point was to keep the Turks in the island safe). I still remember the bodies of kids in a bathtub in blood. We were watching those pictures of dead Turks a lot then. Later the Greeks and Turks got separated, but not in violence. At that phase maybe Turks occupied Greeks homes, I dont know, but even if they have done so, Greeks too must have occupied everything Turks left behind. But I am not clear about the details.

              The point is that, we werent fond of invading around. It was really a bleeding scar for the whole Turkish society and we had to, otherwise we were watching murderers of Turks in the island.

              It is estimated that one and a half million Armenians perished between 1915 and 1923. There were an estimated two million Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire on the eve of W.W.I. Well over a million were deported in 1915. Hundreds of thousands were butchered outright. Many others died of starvation, exhaustion, and epidemics which ravaged the concentration camps. Among the Armenians living along the periphery of the Ottoman Empire many at first escaped the fate of their countrymen in the central provinces of Turkey.

              Turkey continues to deny that this occurred.

              "We did not commit a crime, therefore we do not need to apologise." - Erdogan in 2008

              Those numbers are not clear, some say one million, some 500 tousand, some 1,5 million. The point is that, it was cruel and unbearable even now. But there are multiple factors:
              1) Armenians got organized for decades in various cities of the empire, mainly in eastern region, but also in western cities as well, and they were cooperating with Russia, UK and France. The official archives tell the background relations. The operations of those organizations were raids, murderers and ethnic cleansing.
              2) During WW I Ottoman Empire fighted against Russia at eastern front, and Armenians helped Russia from inside by cutting the logistics to the front, cutting the communication, making raids and fighing against Ottoman forces. There are archive materials about it. They had a serious role in losing the war at that front.
              3) During a war it was impossible both to fight against enemies outside and fight against Armenians inside. Only in 1914-1915 they found an opportunity to make a wide ethnic cleansing of 20.000 only in one location. We still have mass graves from that period. It was a need to relocate them, because just like todays Palestinians, they were dissolving in civilians and it was impossible to clearly see who was who.
              4) The ruling power then was PUP (Party of Union and Progress), which has been established by some part of military officers. They were too much enthusiastic and unqualified for such a position. That streak didnt only caused devastation of all those Armenians, they killed all colours of Turkish society other than the only one at center. It was like a communist regime for all of us and we all suffered from them.
              That power ruined everything by exposing Armenians to danger and devastation.
              5) Even after the relocation there were at least 10 Armenian parliamentarians in Ottoman Parliament and the criminals who were responsible in Armenian relocation question were brought to court and, if I am not wrong, 67 were hung.

              Its not an easy question, but definitely not a systematic ethnic cleansing as well. I think it was rather trying to get rid of "those insurgents", especially while they were fighting against enemies at three fronts. It was definitely unfair, but wartimes are always cruel. With a great probability the same question would be cruelly handled in US or in other countries too.

              Desmond Fernandes, who has worked on the Kurdish Genocide extensively, continued the seminar with a powerful discussion of the persecution of Kurds in modern Turkey. Fernandes pointed out that the Turkish government adopted a much more sustained genocidal program against Kurds, aimed at the assimilation of this community as ethnic Turks. Often the engineers of the destruction of Kurds were the same people who destroyed Armenians a few years earlier. Fernandes outlined the Turkish genocidal policy under the following categories:

              (1) forced assimilation program—banning of the Kurdish language in Turkey, denying the existence of Kurdish history, the forced resettlement of Kurds in non-Kurdish areas of Turkey for assimilation, the indoctrination of Kurds through the Turkish education system, radio and television channels;

              (2) banning of any legitimate opposition to the Turkish government's programs—e.g., Kurdish cultural organisations, political parties, media outlets, etc.; and

              (3) the violent repression of any Kurdish resistance. Hundreds of thousands of Kurds have been murdered by Turkish state authorities over the past eighty years—the Sheykh Said and the Ararat uprisings in the 1920s, the bloody suppression of the Dersim in the 1930s, as well as the PKK campaign in recent years. The Turkish state has imprisoned Kurdish members of the Turkish parliament, various human rights activists, as well as many academics advocating Kurdish rights such as the Turkish sociologist Ismail Besikçi. The Turkish government has also assassinated scores of journalists and intellectuals over the years.

              Until the late 1990s, the Kurds were unable to speak their own language publicly and there are still restrictions defined in the Turkish constitution restricting use of the language in public and political institutions. Today, while cultural rights are still mostly withheld, a seemingly unending economic problem exists in the Kurdish southeastern region of Turkey with unemployment levels reaching as high as 70%. A prime contributor to this problem may be the millions that have been displaced as a result of the ongoing conflict between Kurdish rebels and the Turkish military. In the late 20th century, as many as 4000 villages were destroyed by the Turkish military – according to the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre – causing over 3 million to be displaced with no government compensation.

              The same totalitarian streak is again responsible of Kurdish problem as well. I have told you, we suffered from them too much. But in last decade Kurds (and many others as well) gained their rights more than anytime of republican regime. For years they have a 24-hour operating Kurdish television and radio, in the regions populated heavily by Kurds the official signboards are both in Turkish and Kurdish, now we will have Kurdish as an elective in secondary education etc etc.. It was simply impossible to criticize Dersim Genocide before, today we talk and criticize it in every tv channel. A couple of months ago our Prime Minister apologized from Kurds for Dersim Genocide. There are great differences in the state of minds, those totalitarian Turks are gone from power and the real voice of the society could take their place.

              I don't think all Turks are bad though. Most are probably great people. I have met some great Turkish people and am a fan of Orhan Pamuk.

              I criticize Turks more than you, I know my own people and respect the parts respectable, and dont respect the parts irrespectable. This goes for US history and Americans too and I never put all in one single pot in my mind.

              But recently, I observed a specific characteristic too much and from everybody around that I felt overwhelmed : They dont care anything out of their scope. The social texture in American society looks so flimsy. Then you ask, if they dont care each other, why do "I" care them?
               
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              jf1987

              c/o 2016
              Jan 26, 2012
              295
              1
              Jerusalem, Israel
              1. Pre-Medical
                But recently, I observed a specific characteristic too much and from everybody around that I felt overwhelmed : They dont care anything out of their scope. The social texture in American society looks so flimsy. Then you ask, if they dont care each other, why do "I" care them?

                It is absurd to judge an entire nation from the behavior of a couple people on an internet message board. That was my main point.
                 
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                bidiboom

                Full Member
                Jul 13, 2011
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                  It is absurd to judge an entire nation from the behavior of a couple people on an internet message board. That was my main point.

                  They are not a couple of people, they are
                  1) all of the Americans in these forums who read the posts,
                  2) for months and
                  3) those people are all in medical circles, or to be's.

                  For months some Americans pimped their own people to illegitimate agencies/schools, and some others watched the case. NONE had any productive reaction. As long as it doesnt touch them, they either watch or try to get rid of those talks which are unsatisfactory for their own selves. They want direct satisfaction, the rest is not their concern.

                  This observation is something serious for me.
                   
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                  MossPoh

                  Textures intrigue me
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                    The issue is serious enough to judge hundreds of millions of people because a few of them on an Internet message board didn't respond to an issue with the same interest you did?

                    I have no idea what you are talking about and I have a million other things to do in my life than get up in arms about one person's subjective viewpoints of an issue.
                     

                    Yazo

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                      If one plans on coming to America after completion of medical school outside of there, they will be considered a IMG. (International Medical Graduate.) Whilst, if one completes school in America, you will be an AMG. (American Medical Graduate.) There's much more benefits in graduating within America, first, you will most likely get into a good residency; whilst IMG's pick those who most don't want. Just my point of view.
                       
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