I'm not trying to sound cute or funny. If you got a guy with a history of drug abuse and he's got positive psychotic sx, and he's commitable, you're going to need a UDS to find out what drugs he's using. So if the patient refuses a UDS can you catheterize him against his will? Reason why I bring this up is in the crisis center I've worked at, some nurses have suggested this. I didn't know if this was allowable, but when the nurse tells this to the patient, they quickly change their minds and volunteer to do a UDS. OK fine--but if we're not allowed to force a catheterization, aren't the nurses not allowed to state they'll force one? Before you get mad at the nurses, no inpt unit in the area where I'm at in NJ will accept a comitted patient without UDS, and by state law you got to get them out of the crisis center in 24 hrs, you have to either get them to some inpt unit or discharge them. So its a case of damned if you do or damned if you don't. Last night I was on call, and a similar experience happened, but this time the nurse (who was new) was ethically against suggesting a forced catheterization, so when I told her that this seems to be the norm at the crisis center, she got upset with me. I understood why she felt that way and it made me question whether or not we're doing the right thing. This type of thing had gone on for so long with attendings not challenging it, I thought it might've been ok. Now I'm not so sure.