Ethics of Surgery by Pre-Vet Students During Volunteer Work

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Sumstorm, I think you make a good point. Legality isn't the real issue. But whether or not you agree with the law is a major issue. If you feel like you would be qualified to perform abdominal sx in the US, then I don't think you should have a personal issue with doing sx anywhere in the world. As you correctly point out, there are many things that are legal issues but not questions of skills (for example, my placing an IV catheter in Virginia or New York would be illegal, but it's a skill that I've performed literally thousands of times). But if you are unqualified by your own estimation, then you are unqualified and have no business doing it. I would hope most pre-vets would not consider themselves capable of performing abdominal sx. But I agree that the law is of minimal significance here.

Members don't see this ad.
 
It would be interesting to know if the AVMA has an official position on this issue, especially in light of all of the recent UNAM accreditation hullabaloo. Because, really, if the goal of the AVMA is to establish accredited schools of veterinary medicine in third world countries to raise the standard of care, it follows that they probably don't approve of the current standard of care in third world countries (i.e., laypeople performing surgery).

Or maybe there's just some big company dumping a bunch of money into the AVMA's coffers to push the accreditation through... but we all know that would NEVER happen. :D
 
If you feel like you would be qualified to perform abdominal sx in the US, then I don't think you should have a personal issue with doing sx anywhere in the world.

I'd argue that there are times when what is appropriate in some places isn't in others, and vice versa.

So, lets take a more practical example. I think most of us agree that vaccinating dogs and cats for rabies is important, and could be a valuable contribution to a community in a developing country where rabies is present and people are dieing from it. I am currently legally allowed to perform a rabies vaccination in my state, even though I am not a DVM, but 10 years ago I was not. When I went to Thailand, it would have been illegal, and potentially unethical for me to administer rabies vaccines in the USA. However, I administered rabies vaccines in the remote hill tribe villages of Thailand.

Now, I know the argument is going to be that there aren't serious side effects of rabies vaccines, but that would be a fallacy. A decent number of dogs have vaccine reactions. Also, it can create a false sense of security for the community (dog has been vaccinated, so it can't have rabies...but that isn't really true.) I am not currently prepared to handle a vaccine reaction appropriatly (especially if a human is stuck...and I have vax reactions myself), and in those areas I didn't have the drugs to do so, even if I did know what to do. So, was it ethically wrong for me to administer rabies vaccines because it wouldn't have been appropriate in the US? Or was the good provided by that service (and my paying to have that experience) more important than whether it was appropriate in my home country? Would I have donated that money to just go along and watch endless lines of animals be treated? At that point in time, I had never given a rabies vaccine.

I agree, abdominal Sx is a big deal. So are vaccines and pharmaceuticals (misuse of anti Abx and anti-virals have rendered some totally ineffective), and I'd even argue behavior issues are a big deal. So, should I get rid of my training business because I know vet behaviorists exist (I'd close down in a heart beat if the reasoning would keep CM off TV.) The reality is in some places, human medicine is done by folks with less training than anyone on these trips. In some places, some classes of humans aren't allowed any health care from physicians because they aren't touchable by that class. These are complicated topics that I personally don't believe can be addressed in simple statement for or against. I personally feel that anyone who thinks ethics are very simple have lived a sheltered life. There are many instances in my life where circumstances has made a typically unethical choice better than the alternative, less ethical choice.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
It's nice to see that this thread is taking on a more positive light.

sunstorm... you brought up some interesting points :thumbup:
 
Why is it a "more positive light?"

Is it because people are agreeing with your viewpoint?

No, it's because people aren't calling people names and aren't making assumptions. The issue is moving on more intelligently.

Until now.

I think I already pointed out that I learned a lot form this thread. Some of the points that were brought up made me think about my experience and whether or not I'm still okay with everything I did.

sunstorm's comment just made me think of what I did in a totally different way. I got to talk to my vet for a little bit about whether or not it's really okay for someone to go to a third world country and do tasks that are not considered legal here... and well... I wish we could have had longer to talk about it. Sunstorm just put a different spin on things and I appreciate that.
 
Last edited:
I think we've discussed the difference between what is legal vs. what is ethical vs. what is moral ad nauseum on this thread--sumstorm, I really don't think anybody is arguing that it's wrong BECAUSE it is illegal in the USA.

We are not discussing a disaster situation or other scenario where there is no choice, i.e. emergency surgery has to be performed and even if it's by someone with a minimal knowledge in even basic anatomy it HAS to be done. I think the majority of us arguing against the practice are doing so because the very fact that veterinarians are standing there with pre-vets indicates there IS a choice--there IS an option--to have SKILLED hands do the surgery. And if there IS that option--whyever would you want to have completely UNskilled hands do the surgery?? There IS a choice here--and as others have pointed out, when conditions are so across-the-board suboptimal, why on earth would you choose to complicate the situation even further by having virgin hands do the surgery??? THAT is what I have a problem with. Again, it seems to me that people are paying for the privlege of performing surgery--which to me is wrong, wrong wrong.
 
not for nothing scarcelyheard, but you did a fair bit of namecalling and assuming yourself.

carry on.
 
not for nothing scarcelyheard, but you did a fair bit of namecalling and assuming yourself.

carry on.

I said that someone was lying... and someone was.

It's incredibly frusterating when majority of the people writing on this thread haven't listened to much of what any of us had to say about the VIDA trip. That's what we were discussing when this debate came up, so it makes since to relate most of what you're saying to the VIDA trip and how it's run. Even discussing the structure of other organized trips is fine by my book. Instead, it was assumed that there was no veterinary supervision during surgery, or minimal veterinary supervision during surgery, or the veterinarians were supposed to supervise 2 or more tables at once, or they were suspected to supervise 1 student and the rest of the clinic at the same time. It would be fine and dandy to discuss that... if any of the organizations ran like that. I don't even think anyone named a volunteer organization that ran in any of those ways, but continued to discuss how barbaric it is to have pre-vets in those situations. I agree, most of those situations seem barbaric to me, but how is that going to help someone decide whether or not to go on a VIDA trip/World Vets trip/etc when their specfic situation wasn't acknowledged or intelligently discussed?

I'm still interested in hearing about that.

I'm also still interested in discussing whether or not these trips make a positive or negative impact on the animal communities and human communities. I think 160 surgeries in 5 days is great for the population. I think that if you can convince one person to take their animal to a clinic and teach them how to take better care of their pet, then that makes a huge difference to me. Who's to say that in 5 years time, it isn't going to blow up in their faces for some reason for another? I still don't understand that concept... training laypeople to work in clinics when the clinics aren't receiving funding from anyone... I donno, maybe someone can explain that better? Because that's something that probably would have prevented me from going on the trip if I had known about it. If it's definitely causing the communities to become poorer or more dependent on Americans and the country is going to end up worse off in the future because of it, well, that's something I probably wouldn't want to support.

I went to gain veterinary experience and to add more diversity to my application. I went because I wanted to experience a different culture. I went because I wanted to meet new people. I went because the trip sounded interesting. I went because clinic staff, professors, friends and family all agreed that it would be a great experience. Nobody brought up the ethical argument or the fact that these organizations might be doing more harm than good. Although it's too late for me to go back and time and look into these things, I want to know about them. That's why I'm still kicking around SDN. Don't know if you noticed, but most of the people who started the other thread are no longer here. There has to be someone left to say, "Back up guys... you've going off in the wrong direction a little."
 
I said that someone was lying... and someone was.

It's incredibly frusterating when majority of the people writing on this thread haven't listened to much of what any of us had to say about the VIDA trip.

Instead, it was assumed that there was no veterinary supervision during surgery, or minimal veterinary supervision during surgery, or the veterinarians were supposed to supervise 2 or more tables at once, or they were suspected to supervise 1 student and the rest of the clinic at the same time.

I agree, most of those situations seem barbaric to me, but how is that going to help someone decide whether or not to go on a VIDA trip/World Vets trip/etc when their specfic situation wasn't acknowledged or intelligently discussed?

and see this is why it's equally as frustrating to me. go read the start of the other thread. alliecat asked a question about whether those on the forum think that just because laypeople can do the surgery, should they. she asked it in a very intelligent manner (as you continually insinuate that those people involved in the discussion are apparently not), and she asked it very politely. after a couple of responses it was cleared up that you were not, as possibly thought, left alone to do the surgeries. we covered that, ok? and then the conversation went to a question of whether doing it with vets and volunteers together is the most efficient way to perform all of these surgeries. a question that to this day has yet to be answered, by the way, but not that anyone cares about that anymore.

it is my opinion that we were, in fact, trying to have an intelligent conversation, and if you have evidence of people "not listening to what you have to say" i would gladly like to read that. it seemed to me that we did listen to what you (and others on the trips) had to say, and actually asked some questions about what we learned- questions that usually went unanswered. how could we have asked you questions if we didn't read what you wrote and responded to it? and again, who are you to say that someone was lying? i don't see how you can accuse people of not having intelligent things to say and being frustrated when you yourself said things about lying (or being bad vets, or people obviously not knowing anyone who had gone on trips, among other things) and won't answer questions that people who haven't gone on trips have asked of you. don't know if you noticed, but maybe people on the previous thread also don't feel like trying to have a conversation where it is clearly one-sided and asking questions to try and get a little education from those who actually went on these trips is a waste of time.
 
I said that someone was lying... and someone was.

and to add, it was cleared up in later posts that the person was not lying, in fact it was determined that since it's a shelter situation it falls under a different category of regulations. so really, for you to accuse some people of not reading what the VIDA proponents have to say yet throw around accusations of lies that you yourself didn't read up on is rather silly, no?
 
Man, this thread needs to go into like a time capsule or something so that it gets sent to each poster (liars, ignorers, judgy people, and defensive people all alike) 2 years out of vet school or something. I bet it'll be hiiiilaaarious!
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Man, this thread needs to go into like a time capsule or something so that it gets sent to each poster (liars, ignorers, judgy people, and defensive people all alike) 2 years out of vet school or something. I bet it'll be hiiiilaaarious!

Sorta like how my freshman year of college we had to write a letter to our future selves, and then they delivered it to us the next semester.

"Dear judgy self..."
 
All "judgy" comments aside....

I feel like this topic has been thoroughly exhausted....I think people from both sides have actually answered all the questions being posed (at least the best that they can be answered) I think there's a tradeoff between positives and negatives as in many situations.

Although this has become a somewhat of a name-calling forum, I feel it has been a very good debate overall. So, instead of being pissed off at each other for maybe not being the nicest, recognize that you had a great discussion here that was well worth it, and especially valuable to those of us considering the VIDA trip.

So, Thanks I guess :D
 
160 animals in 5 days is not nothing, but it is a tiny drop in the bucket. 32 surgeries per day is a very small number. As I said, I have been involved in clinics where up to 250 surgeries *per day* were performed. If vets were doing surgery here, 160 surgeries could be done in 1-2 days easily. This would mean 200+ more animals could be helped.

To do such a small number of surgeries would be fine if it were really the best that could be done with the resources available. But if surgeons are holding the hands of pre-vets while they try sx, then that is absolutely not the best that could have been done. The only way this would be okay would be if you were actually serving every animal that came and there was legitimately time for hand-holding. But I doubt this is what happened. And if I took 1+ hours to have a vet hold my hand through a spay that they could have done in 15 minutes while we were turning people away at the door, I'd consider myself directly responsible for our inability to serve these people. The animals who are turned away at a VIDA or HSVMA clinic may well never have another opportunity to see a veterinarian. This is not only bad for the animal, it means the animal will continue to contribute to the public health issues of overpopulation and rabies and other zoonotic diseases. To me, that's unacceptable. My job would be to do whatever I can to make sure as many animals are helped as possible. I'll get to learn surgery eventually in school. I doubt there will be any real benefit from rushing the issue.
 
Has anyone ACTUALLY called anyone a name on here? I don't get why people are getting hostility vibes from this thread. Perhaps I have been spending too much time on the med forum?
 
160 animals in 5 days is not nothing, but it is a tiny drop in the bucket. 32 surgeries per day is a very small number. As I said, I have been involved in clinics where up to 250 surgeries *per day* were performed. If vets were doing surgery here, 160 surgeries could be done in 1-2 days easily. This would mean 200+ more animals could be helped.

To do such a small number of surgeries would be fine if it were really the best that could be done with the resources available. But if surgeons are holding the hands of pre-vets while they try sx, then that is absolutely not the best that could have been done. The only way this would be okay would be if you were actually serving every animal that came and there was legitimately time for hand-holding. But I doubt this is what happened. And if I took 1+ hours to have a vet hold my hand through a spay that they could have done in 15 minutes while we were turning people away at the door, I'd consider myself directly responsible for our inability to serve these people. The animals who are turned away at a VIDA or HSVMA clinic may well never have another opportunity to see a veterinarian. This is not only bad for the animal, it means the animal will continue to contribute to the public health issues of overpopulation and rabies and other zoonotic diseases. To me, that's unacceptable. My job would be to do whatever I can to make sure as many animals are helped as possible. I'll get to learn surgery eventually in school. I doubt there will be any real benefit from rushing the issue.

scb44f said on the first page that she never saw animals turned away - I don't know if that's applicable at every clinic, but at least that was her perception during her trip.

To others commenting on TNR programs and the pace they go, I should note that I never saw anyone turned away because there were too many animals already, and we all stayed on-site until the last animal presented for surgery was done. This was never past 7 pm.
 
Has anyone ACTUALLY called anyone a name on here? I don't get why people are getting hostility vibes from this thread. Perhaps I have been spending too much time on the med forum?


I think you're right, it really hasn't been that bad....just passionate:) Mostly just accusing people of evading questions which isn't really name-calling. But like I said, all questions seemed to have been thoroughly answered to me
 
Hahaha... oh my.

I said someone was lying one person said that it's legal for a 1st year vet student to perform surgery in certain situations in a certain. Then someone comes around and says that's it's definitel illlegal everywhere in the US. That's what I was refering to.

Lying probably wasn't the best word the best word... ignoring what was previously said and jumping the gun on that one.

Other than that... I didn't see any name-calling on this thread in particular. I think it's mean to call someone a name not to their face and not knowing who they are.
 
There IS a choice here--and as others have pointed out, when conditions are so across-the-board suboptimal, why on earth would you choose to complicate the situation even further by having virgin hands do the surgery??? THAT is what I have a problem with. Again, it seems to me that people are paying for the privlege of performing surgery--which to me is wrong, wrong wrong.

First, folks did bring up legalities. And folks brought up inaccuracies about legalities.

Secondly, there is always a choice, in every situation. Just many times that choice isn't useful, but it is still a choice.

Finally, you and I and others can all disagree about whether it is ethical or not for folks to do something your or I disagree with. I disagree because I know I personally will not shell out $3-5k to pay for the very best high-volume S/N vets (which I am not and will not be) to go to these countries to do these procedures. Are you saying you would put your money where your mouth is? Do you find this so unethical that you will foot the costs to make it archaic and to give the folks in these communities a better option? Because that is really what this comes down to; money. These communities generally can't afford vet care. The money to support these trips are coming from the folks attending these trips. We could make this a non-option if we really wanted to by funding a better alternative, but I don't know many folks willing to. I also do not understand why it is so unethical when we DO allow folks to perform Sx (with those magical virgin hands) in the US, either on thier own animals or on the animals in a lab, or on the animals on a farm. Why is it ethical here, on farms, in research labs, etc, but all of a sudden, because we are talking about a pet, it is unethical elsewhere?

I just don't understand that contradictory views; its ok sometimes here, but not ok if someone else does it elsewhere (then again, I don't understand animal rights and guardianship activists that continue to enjoy the benefits of modern society.)
 
sumstorm the point is in this context there would be no change in cost or convenience to having the vet do it, because by all accounts the vet is standing RIGHT THERE with gloves on and their hands in the patient too. With it seeming like no cons and huge pros to the vets doing it instead of the pre-vets, that's what people are questioning...
 
I hate to respond and bump this thread at the risk of igniting "hostile" feelings from both parties, but I feel I have something to contribute after going on one of these trips.

For those of you interested and reading through this debate: It was a one-of-a-kind experience and I learned a lot more than I thought I would. Not about surgeries or diseases or anything of medical value, but about people and the standards of care in different countries and cultures. Although I "performed" surgeries, I do not feel secure in my skills to claim that I understand how to do a surgery nor can I point out to you the anatomy nor do I really understand all the consequences of having "uneducated" (for lack of a better word) pre-vets performing surgeries. I am not a veterinarian and I do not have the skills of a veterinarian. I only understand vet med as far as my experiences have taken me this far. This trip does not make me a veterinarian.

Many of the techniques were questionable. Yes, zip-ties were used and yes, they caused some complications. It was awful the first time a zip-tie slipped. Even the vets we were with were uncomfortable using zip-ties. By the middle of the trip everyone was using suture material instead of zip-ties because it was safer. We did perform surgeries on trash bags and we didn't have sterile gloves or sterile surgery environments.

As the trip progressed it became pretty clear to me that we were slowing down the vets and sometimes they seemed pretty frustrated that they had to teach us how to neuter and spay. They most definitely could have fixed more animals without having pre-vets tagging along in surgery. However, I think programs like VIDA offer opportunities to spay and neuter as incentives for pre-vets. My personal belief is that rich, privileged students are more likely to come on trips that allow them to do something extraordinary and lets face it: the more rich people you attract, the more money you get for your cause. Each student paid around $2000 dollars to attend this trip. That money not only goes to jobs (vets, vet techs, vida employees), but it also goes to the community (host families, tourism, shopping) and more supplies (vaccines, suture, antibiotics, vitamins, dewormer). Additionally, pre-vets are required to bring donations with them, which means more goods. Also, I feel many students that go on this trip are more likely to donate money to the cause in the future. I think this answers the question of why have a student do the surgeries if the vet is standing watching...

If you think about it, VIDA has a pretty sweet deal going on: put up with a few annoying pre-vets and get a good amount of money and materials to actually help animals. I think any individual would be out of line to claim that they were as competent as a vet from going on a VIDA trip. If anything, I learned how far I have to go before I truly am competent as a pre-vet or vet student (when I get there)

All of this is just my take on it, but I started to feel this way as the trip went on and even after the trip ended.

I do not think you can hold countries like Nicaragua and Honduras to the same standards that we hold ourselves to in the US, however. As morally "wrong" as this might seem, life isn't fair and you'd be wayyyyy too idealistic to think you could expect the same standards of care and moral code to apply in underdeveloped countries. I think a fundamental flaw of many Americans is to push our beliefs on other countries as the "correct" way. If countries in Central America want to welcome pre-vets with open arms then so be it. Ultimately these countries allow pre-vets to perform surgeries and who know what their reasons are for doing so.

To go along with not holding them to the same moral codes: Individuals in these areas have no money (some living on less than a dollar a day) and the conditions they live in are shocking to say the least. They are not going to spend the money or time to take their animals into town to see a vet. Animals do not hold the same place in society that they do in the US. Most of these animals would die before they saw treatment from a local veterinarian. Some of the only care these animals get is from traveling groups, like VIDA. I'm not saying that this is a reason for pre-vets to be allowed to perform surgeries. However, I would be lying if I said I wasn't grateful to have gone on this trip and had the experience I had, even the surgeries. If this makes my morals questionable, then so be it.

I think we need to have some perspective and really examine what the conditions are like in the countries VIDA travels to. MOST people in the US have the money to pay for quality, educated DVMs. Clearly this is not the case in some areas in Central America. This might be a stretch, but how many times have you seen quality of care or quality of a surgery go down because an owner couldn't afford the thousands it would cost to pay for the procedure. Isn't this what is often seen with low-cost spay neuter clinics in the US? I'm not trying to start an argument with anyone, but I hope people will really take a hard look at the "moral standards" here in the US. (Okay this is more of a social-politcal rant. Sorry! :/)

I hope one day I can better understand the argument of veterinary students and DVMs who feel that this is morally questionable and abhorable. Right now I see it from a pre-vet perspective: a one-of-a-kind opportunity that showed me how lucky I am to live in a developed country and one that gave me a unique perspective on vet med. I do know that I would love to get my DVM and go back to help in Central America.

To summarize my experience: it was unique and eye opening. To be honest I will never know if any of the animal died after the fact and that bothers me a little bit. However, I really gained an understanding of culture and how it impacts the ability to care for animals.


**NOTE** Nothing I have posted is meant to spark any debate. Everything I have written here is purely my opinion and isn't based on any factual information. I don't claim that VIDA is morally right or wrong. Nothing I have written is directed at any particular individual nor any comment made by any individual. I do not consider myself competent at performing surgeries and I do not feel that VIDA has made me equal to a vet. I am sure my opinion will change if I get into vet school or become a DVM, but its hard to see the perspective or argument without having all the information. I know that there is a good chance you vet students and DVMs have a better understanding of consequences of trips like VIDA, but I don't and therefore I can only use the information I have to make choices and form opinions. Ultimately, I see both sides of the argument. I think a lot of pre-vets on here are defensive because they feel like their morals and ability to be a good DVM are being called into question. I think this is particularly stressful when we pre-vets don't know if we will ever get the chance to prove that we could be good, competent DVMs. Anyhow, I appreciate any perspective or info anyone wants to contribute and I hope this helped someone in someway.

From what you have described though, you could have gained ALL of the cultural animal welfare impacts WITHOUT having done surgerys. Imagine if NO trips like this offered the chance for pre-vets to do surgery - instead offered them intense vet-tech and vet-assistant experience. I reckon just as many people would go - and then the vets who CAN spey and neuter COMPETENTLY, and QUICKLY, would be able to help far more animals then are by the current system. And they would still get the same amount of money. But as soon as one trip started offering the chance, they all had to to keep up with the "experience".

My problem with the whole pre-vet speying and neutering is that its NOT done with the animals best interest - or even population controls best interest - and heart. Its basically turning an animals surgery into a tourism exercise for prevets - and i feel that is HIGHLY unethical. Because once you start doing things like that, where does it end?
 
Imagine if NO trips like this offered the chance for pre-vets to do surgery - instead offered them intense vet-tech and vet-assistant experience. I reckon just as many people would go - and then the vets who CAN spey and neuter COMPETENTLY, and QUICKLY, would be able to help far more animals then are by the current system.

sunshinevet, i totally would go on one of these trips even if it didn't have the opportunity of doing surgeries...i personally have no desire to perform a spay/neuter until i feel that i'm educated enough (and that means attending vet school and doing externships at shelters/spay neuter clinics). i would go on one of these trips even if all i did was vet tech stuff, so that i could experience another culture's view on vet med and also just help out other countries that need it. but of course, that's just me :rolleyes:
 
There are plenty of organizations and trips that I have had friends go on where the vets knock out HUNDREDS of spays and neuters...and the best part is, if you are a tech its free, all you have to pay for is your flight. They go to mexico, central america, all over! On the last trip to Cancun in April, they spayed and neutured 750 cats and dogs, did 3 eye enucleations, 1 cherry eye repair, 1 leg amp and 1 c-section, along with vaccinating, deworming and treating for parasites, etc. See veterinaryventures.com :) and I know there are others out there, vets without borders, etc. all it took was a simple google search.
 
So, I'm sorry if I'm repeating something here, but I've only just started reading the third page. But from what I've read so far, there is one thing I want to say.

I talked to the dean of my college about studying abroad and what opportunities are offered and he was telling me about how they are trying to coordinate a trip to Puerto Rico with VIDA for the coming Maymester. He was talking about us pre-vet students being able to perform surgery, but that it would be supervised by a veterinarian. BUT, if we showed enough potential and showed that we understand that we can handle spaying/neutering the animals, then the vets would even walk away and leave us alone while we'd be doing surgeries, so he could assist people that actually needed him. Which means there would not be constant supervision by a vet and like people said "their hands on our hands" and if something went wrong "they could immediately jump in to help the animal. I believe (of course I don't know) that the dean did enough research on the VIDA trips if he wants to coordinate a trip or would he be lying about it?

I think the trip is a neat idea and I'd love to learn how to spay and neuter, but I don't think I am ready for it yet. Of course I would try and take the time to learn as much about anatomy/physiology as possible and other important things, but is it worth risking that this might take away study time from my college classes, possibly bringing down my GPA and decreasing my chance f getting into vet school if I could learn spaying and neutering later also? Later, when I actually know more about what I'd be doing?

I really want to volunteer internationally AND learn more about vet med at the same time, but I am way more comfortable traveling with World Vets as a 'learning vet tech' than actually doing thee surgeries after only watching other people doing them.
 
So, I'm sorry if I'm repeating something here, but I've only just started reading the third page. But from what I've read so far, there is one thing I want to say.

I talked to the dean of my college about studying abroad and what opportunities are offered and he was telling me about how they are trying to coordinate a trip to Puerto Rico with VIDA for the coming Maymester. He was talking about us pre-vet students being able to perform surgery, but that it would be supervised by a veterinarian. BUT, if we showed enough potential and showed that we understand that we can handle spaying/neutering the animals, then the vets would even walk away and leave us alone while we'd be doing surgeries, so he could assist people that actually needed him. Which means there would not be constant supervision by a vet and like people said "their hands on our hands" and if something went wrong "they could immediately jump in to help the animal. I believe (of course I don't know) that the dean did enough research on the VIDA trips if he wants to coordinate a trip or would he be lying about it?

I think the trip is a neat idea and I'd love to learn how to spay and neuter, but I don't think I am ready for it yet. Of course I would try and take the time to learn as much about anatomy/physiology as possible and other important things, but is it worth risking that this might take away study time from my college classes, possibly bringing down my GPA and decreasing my chance f getting into vet school if I could learn spaying and neutering later also? Later, when I actually know more about what I'd be doing?

On the trip I was on (because I cannot account for all VIDA trips) the vets never ever ever left the table in the middle of surgery. Before the animal was ready, to grab more gauze? Sure. At the end, after it was completely finished, to check another animal that was in for consult? Yes. But never during surgery. I would NOT have felt comfortable with that.

As far as spays and neuters, yes, it was great, yes, I learned a lot, but I could not and would not perform any full procedure on my own. There were times when what I was doing was too much and I just didn't know enough, so I told the vet, and they took over. No problem.

I am one who still would have gone if it had been only tech duties. I honestly feel like that is where I learned the most because never before had I taken a pulse, listened to the heart rate, examined the body condition etc. on such a large number of animals in one day. So yeah, I was excited about the opportunities I got while there, but I was more excited about those experiences that I could bring home with me and practice on my own (my poor dog hates my stethescope now).
 
They should start running these trips for the human medicine undergrads.

Find some ridiculous legal loophole in a marginal third world country so students without a medical license or any post-grad medical training what-so-ever can knock out a few appendectomies and hernia repairs on some poor villager with no other options.

I think the stuff described in this post is beyond unethical and probably borderline criminal.

Whether allowing us to do so is right or wrong, it is not any of our decision to make.

You made the decision when you went to a foreign country and agreed to do something that you're entirely unqualified for, and that's so illegal in the developed world that it's almost laughable.
 
Last edited:
So, I'm sorry if I'm repeating something here, but I've only just started reading the third page. But from what I've read so far, there is one thing I want to say.

I talked to the dean of my college about studying abroad and what opportunities are offered and he was telling me about how they are trying to coordinate a trip to Puerto Rico with VIDA for the coming Maymester. He was talking about us pre-vet students being able to perform surgery, but that it would be supervised by a veterinarian. BUT, if we showed enough potential and showed that we understand that we can handle spaying/neutering the animals, then the vets would even walk away and leave us alone while we'd be doing surgeries, so he could assist people that actually needed him. Which means there would not be constant supervision by a vet and like people said "their hands on our hands" and if something went wrong "they could immediately jump in to help the animal. I believe (of course I don't know) that the dean did enough research on the VIDA trips if he wants to coordinate a trip or would he be lying about it?

I think the trip is a neat idea and I'd love to learn how to spay and neuter, but I don't think I am ready for it yet. Of course I would try and take the time to learn as much about anatomy/physiology as possible and other important things, but is it worth risking that this might take away study time from my college classes, possibly bringing down my GPA and decreasing my chance f getting into vet school if I could learn spaying and neutering later also? Later, when I actually know more about what I'd be doing?

I really want to volunteer internationally AND learn more about vet med at the same time, but I am way more comfortable traveling with World Vets as a 'learning vet tech' than actually doing thee surgeries after only watching other people doing them.

Quietly accusing people of lying isn't cool; obviously the students who are reporting their experiences here weren't among the group where the vet was comfortable leaving them alone with animals. I also think you overestimate exactly what "walking away" means - these clinics aren't held in some expansive building; the surgery tables (at least on my trip) were probably 10 feet away from one another. So if a vet walked off to another table while a student was comfortably suturing or something like that and there was any problem, he could be back within a second or two for any possible problems.

This still never happened on my trip, at least with the veterinarians I worked with; it was literally a vet standing over the students the entire time, all the way through surgery, and only leaving when the students took the animal to recovery and another animal was brought to the surgery table.

Also, World Vets often lets pre-vets do some surgery (neuters, generally) at the end of trips. So if you're really looking for a company that aligns with that value, you'll have to find someone else.
 
I feel like the ethics of these trips are something that people will have to agree to disagree on. Whether we all believe that the orgs running these trips have genuine intentions or not, they are legitimate organizations and no one participating is doing anything that is prosecutably wrong. I personally believe it's unethical, and would not have participated, but it really is a gray zone, and I think that it's up to the individuals to hash out in their heads if it's something they want to participate in. That being said, I think HN did a really awesome job reflecting on his/her trip from a balanced viewpoint. It wasn't defensive or delusional or speculative. Thanks for sharing. I think it's pretty brave of you to bring this thread back up to share in detail what your experience was like and what you thought of it. If it ever comes up in an interview, I think you will represent yourself very well.
 
I'm not accusing anybody of lying, because I have never gone on a trip before. And why shouldn't each trip be a little different from the other. There are different people going. All I said is I don't think the professor I talked to lied to us about this particular trip we'd be doing.
 
For the people who went on the trips:

Did y'all talk to the vets there about it? Did they express any opinion about the program/ethics? Just curious and would like to know how the participating vets felt.
 
There are great international spay/neuter programs that provide an outstanding level of care in the most remote and meager conditions. They welcome participation of volunteerrs of all skills levels, but appropriately match assignments with skills. Check out the program at www.hsvma.org as an example.

Poor surgical conditions and surgery by untrained individuals does not enhance animal welfare and is unethical. I've taught spay/neuter surgery to hundreds of veterinary students and it is not something that can be picked up on the fly in a few days. The images seen at the VIDA program www.purdue.edu/svmengaged/docs/IP/2010_VIDA.pdf show a complete lack of sterile technique and surgical skill. Americans can and should perform care that they would want for themselves and not make excuses for anything less.

An interesting commentary regarding medical students may give pre-vet and vet students pause for thought:
“Medical students are often eager for the clinical experiences which international electives promise to provide. Depending on the setting, however, circumstances may be such that students find themselves expected to act in situations for which they are unprepared and unqualified. Sometimes these circumstances jeopardize both patient and student safety. But when the choice for a patient is a student’s care or no care, what should the student do? When regulations are lacking, when medical needs are great and a student's knowledge exceeds that of alternative care providers, what constraints should apply, especially if a local physician asks him or her to act? How should students balance the needs of the moment with the fact that they represent their medical school, their country, perhaps their race and religion, and future medical missions? If a patient is harmed, the repercussions may last for years. Needless to say, these concerns are compounded in the occasional cases of students who view international electives as an opportunity to practice procedures they aren’t allowed to do at home. Not only is this attitude highly unethical, it poses potential liability risks to the sponsoring medical school.” American Medical Association Journal of Ethics 2006: A Caution against Medical Student Tourism
 

Attachments

  • VIDA 3.jpg
    34 KB · Views: 122
  • VIDA 1.jpg
    44.4 KB · Views: 115
Check out the attached image to make your own assessment about the quality of care provided to animals on VIDA trips. It doesn't matter whether animals are from wealthy or impovershed communities. Their response to trauma and contaminated invasive procedures is the same everywhere. The sad thing is that it's not harder or more expensive to run high-quality international spay/neuter programs. There are many excellent programs to join that don't put animals at risk.

In recognition of this the Association of Shelter Veterinarians states:
“The ASV encourages veterinary students to take advantage of opportunities to participate in spay neuter events both within the United States and abroad. These events can provide valuable practical experience. In addition, they serve to increase awareness of and efforts aimed at solving the overpopulation problem. Students are cautioned, however, to participate only in those programs that meet ‘The Association of Shelter Veterinarians Veterinary Medical Care Guidelines for Spay-Neuter Programs’ published in the July 1, 2008 Journal of the AVMA and only to the extent that is appropriate for their level of education. For example, only students who have participated in the surgery laboratory activities of their professional curriculum should actively perform surgery. Students who have not yet participated in their educational surgery laboratories should limit their role to that of a technician or assistant. Student surgeons require direct supervision and mentoring by the designated responsible veterinarians. Students should not participate in surgical programs that are not in compliance with local veterinary practice regulations. Pre-veterinary students and veterinary technicians should not perform surgeries.” Association of Shelter Veterinarians Position Statement 2011: Student Surgical Experiences
 

Attachments

  • VIDA 1.jpg
    44.4 KB · Views: 118
Holy cow. Thanks for sharing those photos... those are absolutely unreal.
 
Last edited:
That picture is from a public web site (Purdue, actually).
 
Fair enough, but please have the courtesy to blur the person's face (and nametag) before posting a picture of them on a public forum.

It's taken from a publicly available website.

It took me 30 seconds to find the original pictures on a facebook page.

I'd be more concerned about the food service gloves, garbage bags covering surgical tables or lack of any kind of sterile field before I'd sweat the source of some pictures that were already public.
 
It's taken from a publicly available website.

It took me 30 seconds to find the original pictures on a facebook page.

I'd be more concerned about the food service gloves, garbage bags covering surgical tables or lack of any kind of sterile field before I'd sweat the source of some pictures that were already public.

Or the fact that it was a picture of a spay-abort which I don't consider unethical but I do consider sad and wouldn't be grinning about or posting on the internet. I can only hope they euthanized the fetuses so they didn't suffocate to death.

Or that it doesn't look like the dog was prepped for surgery - I don't see iodine and it doesn't even look shaved.

I could go on all night but I'll save my extra hour for something less depressing.

ETA: no one is singling this girl out; we don't even know who she is. These are just examples of dangerous and inhumane ways of doing surgery on animals whose owners don't know better and by students who probably don't know better either.
 
Or the fact that it was a picture of a spay-abort which I don't consider unethical but I do consider sad and wouldn't be grinning about or posting on the internet. I can only hope they euthanized the fetuses so they didn't suffocate to death.

Or that it doesn't look like the dog was prepped for surgery - I don't see iodine and it doesn't even look shaved.

I could go on all night but I'll save my extra hour for something less depressing.

ETA: no one is singling this girl out; we don't even know who she is. These are just examples of dangerous and inhumane ways of doing surgery on animals whose owners don't know better and by students who probably don't know better either.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

(only change I would make to the above post is that laypeople probably wouldn't know it's a spay-abort)

TBH, these photos really drive it home even to me. (and I wasn't on the side of these programs to begin with!)

Thanks for sharing the ASV and AMA guidelines, ShelterVet. I think they add a lot of impartial clarity to the discussion.
 
nvm.... no point.
 
Last edited:
Top