EU/Canadian citizen: Irish tuition question

[mcant]

Hi all,

I've searched the forum and contacted Atlantic Bridge without success. I am a Canadian citizen who qualifies for EU (Irish) citizenship through descent. As I'm sure many of you have realized, funding an Irish medical education is a bit of an issue for non-Irish students. Since the schools only offer Irish tuition rates (12-14k Euro per year, I believe) to people who have lived in Ireland for at least 2 years, would I qualify for Irish tuition after 2 years of school? I've lived in Montreal my whole life and attended McGill University (B.Sc Biochemistrry, will be starting a master's in Neuroscience this fall).

I'll probably have to contact the schools directly since their policies will likely vary, but I was wondering if anyone was/is in a similar situation and had more information.

Thanks guys!

PS: For anyone interested, my Grandmother came to Canada after WWII with my grandfather, whom she met and married while he was training in the U.K.. Ireland allows you to claim citizenship through descent if one of your grandparents was born in Ireland, so thanks Grandma!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[asd979]

I personally haven't heard of that happening and I wouldn't be surprised if the schools said no. They love to milk the non-EU students for all they're worth, believe me. My tuition is paying UCC's debt and covering the cost of Irish students in my program.

 

[john182]

.... My tuition is paying UCC's debt and covering the cost of Irish students in my program.

I always wonder where this idea comes from. Public/state universities get funded by the taxpayer. Your fellow Irish medical student's parents have funded through general taxation. You are getting into university without your parents having to spend decades paying 65%+ taxes.

The university didn't suddenly come into being, fully staffed with a track record of medical education because 20-30 med students cough up 30k a year on any given September.

 

[asd979]

I always wonder where this idea comes from. Public/state universities get funded by the taxpayer. Your fellow Irish medical student's parents have funded through general taxation. You are getting into university without your parents having to spend decades paying 65%+ taxes.

The university didn't suddenly come into being, fully staffed with a track record of medical education because 20-30 med students cough up 30k a year on any given September.

In the graduate program Irish students still have to pay tuition as this is their second degree and it is significantly lower than the North American tuition. Our tuition goes into a pool that is used to fund multiple things such as paying for the medical staff, but also includes UCC's debt. Is there a surprise that half of my class is North American, paying double what the Irish students are paying? If you don't think that the North American tuition isn't partially subsidizing the reduction in Irish tuition then you might be delusional.

 

[john182]

In the graduate program Irish students still have to pay tuition as this is their second degree and it is significantly lower than the North American tuition. Our tuition goes into a pool that is used to fund multiple things such as paying for the medical staff, but also includes UCC's debt. Is there a surprise that half of my class is North American, paying double what the Irish students are paying? If you don't think that the North American tuition isn't partially subsidizing the reduction in Irish tuition then you might be delusional.

The door swings both ways. The millions of development costs over several decades was paid by taxpayers, and primarily continues to be paid by taxpayers. I don't how it breaks down, but you are paying what it costs to educate a non-taxpayer.

It's pretty racist and biggoted to refer to peopel based on nationality, when in actual fact, you are a non-taxpayer who has never paid into the education system through general taxation.

If you have not been resident and paying taxes, it costs more. This is the same in the US, if you go to a state university, or go outside of state, correct? If the irish students parents who funded the universities through taxation were not there, how much more do you think you would pay? It's a shared cost in a social democracy, and if you enter the system without having paid up, it costs a lot more.

This is like the Netherlands, where if you have been resident for 5-10 years you can rent a flat for €200 - but if you arrive fresh off the boat, it might be five times that.

So, figure out how much taxes are being paid by the parents of all the students (the means test of the family determines grants). Now, take that away, and you will have no university. Sure, the non-resident fees are a lot, but be under no illusion that you are anything but someone "buying into" a system that has been built up over decades. People pay taxes over almost two decades to fund education systems. It is not the US, so please do not regard it in the same fashion. It's biggoted to presume that everyplace functions like the US, or should function like the US. If your parents pay taxes over two decades which directly support the state education system, it is far cheaper for those students. You have not had that history, so must make it up with higher fees.

 

[asd979]

The door swings both ways. The millions of development costs over several decades was paid by taxpayers, and primarily continues to be paid by taxpayers. I don't how it breaks down, but you are paying what it costs to educate a non-taxpayer.

It's pretty racist and biggoted to refer to peopel based on nationality, when in actual fact, you are a non-taxpayer who has never paid into the education system through general taxation.

If you have not been resident and paying taxes, it costs more. This is the same in the US, if you go to a state university, or go outside of state, correct? If the irish students parents who funded the universities through taxation were not there, how much more do you think you would pay? It's a shared cost in a social democracy, and if you enter the system without having paid up, it costs a lot more.

This is like the Netherlands, where if you have been resident for 5-10 years you can rent a flat for €200 - but if you arrive fresh off the boat, it might be five times that.

So, figure out how much taxes are being paid by the parents of all the students (the means test of the family determines grants). Now, take that away, and you will have no university. Sure, the non-resident fees are a lot, but be under no illusion that you are anything but someone "buying into" a system that has been built up over decades. People pay taxes over almost two decades to fund education systems. It is not the US, so please do not regard it in the same fashion. It's biggoted to presume that everyplace functions like the US, or should function like the US. If your parents pay taxes over two decades which directly support the state education system, it is far cheaper for those students. You have not had that history, so must make it up with higher fees.

I don't know where you get this idea that I'm being racist or that as a CANADIAN (careful when you call someone as a bigot then go and make assumptions, you look like a hypocrite) I shouldn't have to pay more than my Irish classmates. I don't have a problem paying more than the Irish, but 1) the amount is significantly higher and quite frankly ridiculous, and 2) the situation would be a little different if the North Americans were the minority population of the class. Things look a little different when the North Americans make up half of the class, if not a slight majority. My gripe is that I have to pay over triple what my Irish classmates have to pay. An international student studying at my home university would pay double what I would have, maybe less.

 

[med2UCC]

The ridiculous notion that the International students are subsidising the Irish medical education system comes from a report from the Irish Medical Council a few years ago that pointed out that we over pay for our education and that the purpose of this would appear to be to subsidise the state education system. We didn't come up with this on our own; it was kindly pointed out to us. I was also in on the planning stages for the graduate entry program at UCC, sitting as a student rep on a committee, and the discussion around setting a fee for North American students was entirely based on how much the committee thought we would pay, not how much it actually would cost to educate us. Fact, not supposition or ill-informed bigotry.
Cheers,
M

 

[Fiddler09]

Hi all,

I've searched the forum and contacted Atlantic Bridge without success. I am a Canadian citizen who qualifies for EU (Irish) citizenship through descent. As I'm sure many of you have realized, funding an Irish medical education is a bit of an issue for non-Irish students. Since the schools only offer Irish tuition rates (12-14k Euro per year, I believe) to people who have lived in Ireland for at least 2 years, would I qualify for Irish tuition after 2 years of school? I've lived in Montreal my whole life and attended McGill University (B.Sc Biochemistrry, will be starting a master's in Neuroscience this fall).

I'll probably have to contact the schools directly since their policies will likely vary, but I was wondering if anyone was/is in a similar situation and had more information.

Thanks guys!

PS: For anyone interested, my Grandmother came to Canada after WWII with my grandfather, whom she met and married while he was training in the U.K.. Ireland allows you to claim citizenship through descent if one of your grandparents was born in Ireland, so thanks Grandma!

The short answer to your question is NO.

A. You wouldn't qualify for Irish medical student tuition rates because you haven't lived in Ireland for the past 2 (or maybe even 3) years (i.e. years directly preceding your entry to medical school).

B. You wouldn't qualify for the Irish medical student tuition rates after 2 years of living here because your entire medical school tuition rate is based on your status upon entry to school. i.e. if you start off paying 39,100 euro per year, you graduate paying the same per school year.

Believe me - I've tried everything to get out of paying international rates.
For disclosure, I am an Irish citizen (born and lived in Ireland until I was 21). I went to the US for further graduate training, post-docs, etc. As a result of not living in Ireland for 3 years preceding my entry to medical school, I was forced to apply via Atlantic Bridge and pay international rates.

But hey - it's only money. I have no regrets whatsoever.

 

[iwantajob]

asd is 100% correct. The tuition of North Americans is being used to fund the entire medical school and pay off debts. Some of the direct entries attend medical school for free, and the rest only pay a few thousand. I don't mind paying this amount if I'm getting what I'm paid for but I am not. I don't think I'm even getting 1,000 Euros worth of education in a year if you ask me and heres why:

1. This school is EXTREMELY short on staff to the point they have to cancel classes because nobody can teach them. Why is our money not being used to hire new staff?

2. In North America, students get assigned cadavers to dissect and learn from. Once you dissect a cadaver you never forget where the parts here....here we have cadavers that are ancient and we don't dissect like any reputable medical school does. The reason why medical school is so expensive is to fund costs like these but we are provided with brief tutorials on ancient cadavers that are shriveled up and look nothing like they do in a living person. To add insult to injury we have to split with the dental students. I'm very very suspicious....I would like to know how our moneys are broken down and where they are going. They should keep our tuition money within the Graduate Entry Program and hire staff members and TAs just for us (it is a different program after all) instead of using it to fund these other programs. I'd like someone to look into how our money is broken down and where the heck it is going???!!!

3. The graduate entry programs are not established and still in development. All they need to do is see what other reputable schools have done and taught and follow their example instead of constantly asking us what they should be teaching us. We have teachers that come to class without a clue on what they're supposed to teach. If I could get a buck for everytime I heard "Have you guys learned about... No? Okay then never mind" I'd be a millionaire. The curriculum here is downright strange and unorganized... I swear some of the instructors are coming to class unprepared and they simply wing their lectures and you can tell some of them haven't spent even 30 minutes preparing for their talks. Spelling mistakes, getting their facts mixed up, coming late, and some even forget they were supposed to teach that day. We have some fantastic instructors who are good, but unfortunately they are few in number and if I am paying 39,200 I better not end up with professors who simply forget they were supposed to teach that day. I swear I've never been to a school like this and I'm surprised they are allowed to take in students from North America.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be willing to cough up that money to pay for a decent medical school but some of the Irish med schools are like a third world institution. It is no wonder why many American and Canadian schools don't hold the MBBS on the same caliber as an MD. If they can't afford to teach us, then it is unethical of them to take in these American students just to pay off their debts. Unfortunately we're Canadian/Americans in a foreign land and we don't have a voice here.