European guy interested in PsyD/PhD in the US. Advice needed

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nologinisgood

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Hello everyone.

I have already found a lot of useful information on this forum. I have some questions specific to my situation, though, and would be grateful for your input.

I am Polish and have an MA in Philosophy from a university in Poland. I have a strong interest in clinical psychology and psychotherapy (have done a Gestalt-therapy related internship here) and would love to continue my education in the US.

From what I've gathered so far, these are some decisive factors:
1) I have never had any hands-on experience with scientific research, so this is a major drawback.
2) To get a student visa, I will have to prove that my WHOLE study will be financed. I don't have a $50K trust fund so I will have to opt for a program where you get paid (i.e., either Baylor PsyD or a PhD, it seems) unless I manage to get private funding for the whole curriculum (not an easy task).
3) I am more interested in the practical part of the profession (actually working with people) so I need to find a program which isn't strictly limited to research
4) I have graduated in 2009 so I've had a break from the university. Not sure if this would be a problem for the admission committees.
5) In my country it is not customary for professors to write recommendations for students, so I will have to limit my choices to only a few schools in order not to strain my professors' patience.

My question to you is: given the aforementioned criteria, what programs would you recommend?
 
Hello everyone.

I have already found a lot of useful information on this forum. I have some questions specific to my situation, though, and would be grateful for your input.

I am Polish and have an MA in Philosophy from a university in Poland. I have a strong interest in clinical psychology and psychotherapy (have done a Gestalt-therapy related internship here) and would love to continue my education in the US.

From what I've gathered so far, these are some decisive factors:
1) I have never had any hands-on experience with scientific research, so this is a major drawback.
2) To get a student visa, I will have to prove that my WHOLE study will be financed. I don't have a $50K trust fund so I will have to opt for a program where you get paid (i.e., either Baylor PsyD or a PhD, it seems) unless I manage to get private funding for the whole curriculum (not an easy task).
3) I am more interested in the practical part of the profession (actually working with people) so I need to find a program which isn't strictly limited to research
4) I have graduated in 2009 so I've had a break from the university. Not sure if this would be a problem for the admission committees.
5) In my country it is not customary for professors to write recommendations for students, so I will have to limit my choices to only a few schools in order not to strain my professors' patience.

My question to you is: given the aforementioned criteria, what programs would you recommend?

Hi there:

I know you are asking about programs, but I wanted to give some general advice based on the international students i've known in the US. It is very difficult to do a PhD/PsyD program in the US in clinical psychology if you don't have family money. I know a few who tried this route unsuccessfully and had to return to Europe. They had difficulties getting externships and an accredited internship because they was not a US citizens or had a greencard.

As you mentioned, you can only attend a FULLY funded program on a student visa. Otherwise, the cost is more like 150K+. However, even if you attend a fully funded program, you will need some additional money for extra expenses (e.g., travel related to internship interviews, moving costs, laptop, medical expenses). This will be challenging unless you have someone who can send you additional money since most people cannot live 100% on the funding alone.

Another problem you will face is related to the internship crisis in US. From my experience, most accredited internships i've seen require a US citizenship or at the very least a greencard. You will have a tough time landing an APA accredited internship. I also noticed that all the fellowships that I applied for (even non government ones) required a US citizenship. I don't know if this is widespread, but seems to be the trend. You also can't have a gap in employment if you are on a student visa. You should speak with some international students to get additional information. The very few that I know ended up returning to their home countries because it was too cumbersome to get certain training experiences on a student visa. I don't know if you intend to stay or return, but if you wanted to stay in the US, I believe it will be incredibly tough to land a job without at least a greencard.
 
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I think you'll have a lot of difficulties if you can't get letters of rec. All of the programs that I applied to (funded Clinical PhD) required them.
 
Thank you both for your comments.

I think you'll have a lot of difficulties if you can't get letters of rec. All of the programs that I applied to (funded Clinical PhD) required them.

Hi cara susanna. I will be able to get letters of rec. What I meant is that I cannot apply to too many schools as no professor in Poland will have the patience to write 10+ letters of rec.

@PHD12 - what you write about internships being restricted to US citizens is somewhat disheartening to hear. If I understand correctly, if I am unable to get an APA accredited internship, I will be able to get my doctoral title, but I won't be able to practice as a psychologist. Is that correct?

Can anyone confirm that? If getting an internship on a student visa is near-to-impossible, I will have to try and get a green card first and apply second or just give up entirely, it seems.
 
Thank you both for your comments.
Hi cara susanna. I will be able to get letters of rec. What I meant is that I cannot apply to too many schools as no professor in Poland will have the patience to write 10+ letters of rec.
Each professor only has to write one letter. S/he will only have to submit the same letter multiple times which nowadays happens almost exclusively online. And even you send hardcopies, your prof would have to print out the same letter and then sign it a few times, but that's about it.


@PHD12 - what you write about internships being restricted to US citizens is somewhat disheartening to hear. If I understand correctly, if I am unable to get an APA accredited internship, I will be able to get my doctoral title, but I won't be able to practice as a psychologist. Is that correct?

You won't be able to graduate without internship (therefore no doctoral degree). However, I strongly disagree with what PhD12 says. While it is true that you will not be able to apply for certain internships due to immigration status (especially in VAs), it is by no means correct that you cannot find internships if you're here on a student visa. On the APPIC website that oversees internship match for clinical psychology programs in the US, you can even filter internship openings by citizenship requirements and there more than enough options left.
 
I think a big obstacle will be finding a program that states that you have guaranteed funding for your entire program. Many programs try to give themselves some wiggle room so that they are not obligated to give you funding even if most everyone gets funding every yr. Also many programs will stop funding you if you end up taking longer than the standard length of the program (which many people do).

Dr. E
 
You won't be able to graduate without internship (therefore no doctoral degree). However, I strongly disagree with what PhD12 says. While it is true that you will not be able to apply for certain internships due to immigration status (especially in VAs), it is by no means correct that you cannot find internships if you're here on a student visa. On the APPIC website that oversees internship match for clinical psychology programs in the US, you can even filter internship openings by citizenship requirements and there more than enough options left.

I never said that you have to have US citizenship. I said US citizenship or permanent residency/green card for many positions. I don't believe this person will have a greencard. They may not require US citizenship but many will also require permanent residency. It's even more the case for the job market/post-doc market. I didn't come across any position this year that didn't require at least permanent residency on my job search. He needs to do his own research because my experience is based on a few international students that I personally know and my own experiences applying for internships/fellowships. I am also in a competitive location so I should have clarified that.
 
I think a big obstacle will be finding a program that states that you have guaranteed funding for your entire program. Many programs try to give themselves some wiggle room so that they are not obligated to give you funding even if most everyone gets funding every yr. Also many programs will stop funding you if you end up taking longer than the standard length of the program (which many people do).

Dr. E

When applying for a student visa you will only need to show that you have funding for one year. There is no need to show that one is able to pay for the entire course of study.

I never said that you have to have US citizenship. I said US citizenship or permanent residency/green card for many positions. I don't believe this person will have a greencard. They may not require US citizenship but many will also require permanent residency. It's even more the case for the job market/post-doc market. I didn't come across any position this year that didn't require at least permanent residency on my job search. He needs to do his own research because my experience is based on a few international students that I personally know and my own experiences applying for internships/fellowships. I am also in a competitive location so I should have clarified that.

I admit, I misread your post a bit. However, in terms of internship, I know of at least two people who successfully obtained an internship position on a student visa. I don't know what kind of setting they ended up in but it was a solid, APA accredited internship. I also doubt that programs would admit anybody if they weren't able to actually graduate because they can't complete their internship.

In terms of fellowships, I assume you're referring to grant money and external scholarships, etc. That is indeed a little more difficult but if you're funded through the department, the basics should be covered. Maybe he wouldn't be able to secure a huge NIH or NSF fellowship but it's definitely possible, even as an international, student to get outside funding.

In regards to jobs post graduation: If somebody wanted to get the clinical route, it'll likely be next to impossible. Nobody will sponsor a work visa for a clinical position. However, for post-docs there are even special visa's available. And at my current institution, there are multiple professors here on work visas.
 
Marissa,

Not disputing you (because I know nothing about coming from abroad) but in #2 the op emphasized that he needed to show his "WHOLE study" would be financed. Does this vary by country, or is the op mistaken?

If he only needs to demonstrate one yr of funding, that should be less of an issue.

Dr. E
 
Marissa,

Not disputing you (because I know nothing about coming from abroad) but in #2 the op emphasized that he needed to show his "WHOLE study" would be financed. Does this vary by country, or is the op mistaken?

If he only needs to demonstrate one yr of funding, that should be less of an issue.

Dr. E

I see. I think the OP is mistaken in this case. You only need to show that you have funds for the first year. That doesn't have anything to do with the country the visa applicant is coming from or the course of study he is seeking to complete. It may be a bit of a wording issue. You must show that you have the funds available for the first year, but you also have provide convincing evidence that you have a way of paying for the remainder of the years. Consequently, it would be sufficient to get an offer letter from the school with guaranteed funding for the first year. if asked by an immigration officer it should be sufficient to answer that students have historically been funded (conditional upon satisfactory progress). Similarly, if the OP were to have a sponsor from his home country, there would need to be actual proof that funds are available for the first years but it would be sufficient if the sponsor completed an affidavit of support stating that s/he will provide the funds for the remainder.
 
I never said that you have to have US citizenship. I said US citizenship or permanent residency/green card for many positions. I don't believe this person will have a greencard. They may not require US citizenship but many will also require permanent residency. It's even more the case for the job market/post-doc market. I didn't come across any position this year that didn't require at least permanent residency on my job search. He needs to do his own research because my experience is based on a few international students that I personally know and my own experiences applying for internships/fellowships. I am also in a competitive location so I should have clarified that.

Being an international student myself. all the international students that I know that attended an APA-accredited program with close to 100% match rate landed an APA-accredited internship. Most of them (if not all of them) completed internship at university counseling centers. International students tend to end up working at university counseling centers too (unless you are pursuing the academic/ research route).

It's true that VAs won't be an option unless you have a green card, which significantly limits your choices.

Oh, and if you wanna apply to either clinical or counseling psych PhD programs, all of them want to see their your potential in research and publishing. This is true even for those that report themselves as more clinical-oriented. I'd seriously recommend that you consider spending 2-3 years doing research in this area, best if you can publish one or two. At the same time, collect names of people researching topics you are interested in pursuing. It will lessen the hassle when it comes to applying.

Best of luck.
 
Thank you to everyone for your responses!

As to the funding, I wasn't precise enough. I believe it is in fact as Marissa said. I wouldn't be able to follow through with a non-funded study, though, so my point of PhD vs PsyD holds true.

I am a little relieved that there are options to get internships after all.

@xyzpsych If I really have to do 2-3 years of research first, I will probably pass. As I am not a fresh graduate and the doctoral study takes so long in the US, I would finish the doctorate close to being 40. I think it's a little to extreme for me.

Does everybody concur with xyzpsych? Is it impossible to get accepted into a PhD program without previous research experience?

And back to my OP: any programs you would recommend?
 
@xyzpsych If I really have to do 2-3 years of research first, I will probably pass. As I am not a fresh graduate and the doctoral study takes so long in the US, I would finish the doctorate close to being 40. I think it's a little to extreme for me.

Does everybody concur with xyzpsych? Is it impossible to get accepted into a PhD program without previous research experience?

And back to my OP: any programs you would recommend?

I definitely know people that had one or two years' experience of research and got in. I think the bottom line is to assure the program that you know what kind of challenge you are taking on and to show them that you can succeed. I said 2-3 years and best if you can publish because PhD applied psychology is extremely competitive here in the US--we are talking about around 5 admissions out of 300 applicants for clinical psych and 5 out of 150 for counseling pysch. I actually know quite a few people who got into a PhD program in psychology in their 30s or 40s--most of them are changing their career path. I also know lots of people who volunteered for research teams while working full-time. I'm from an Asian country, and my impression has been that American people never want to consider themselves "old" and they tend to tell you that "it's never too late to pursue your dreams" (at least more so than my home country)-- for good or worse.

And I'm also interested in learning other people's opinion on this.
 
You do need significant research experience to get admitted, particularly to a funded program.

Are you only considering a PhD or would a master's degree be an option? Finding funding might be harder, as they usually are not funded programs. However, you can do therapy with the right master's, at least in this country. It won't require research experience and it is much shorter.

We haven't been suggesting specific programs to you because a major criterion for admission is whether your research interests are a good fit with a professor in the department's research. We'd have to know what you want to research to have a good answer and even then, it can be hard to say.

Dr. E
 
I also wanted to add that even as an international student you can complete an internship at a VA. For the most part whether or not an international student can be hired depends on funding sources. What from I've heard it also seems to differ from site to site.

For example, the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston has one of the most prestigious internships and they accept allow international students to complete their internships there.

http://academicdepartments.musc.edu/psychology_internship/selection_of_candidates09.htm
 
I also wanted to add that even as an international student you can complete an internship at a VA. For the most part whether or not an international student can be hired depends on funding sources. What from I've heard it also seems to differ from site to site.

For example, the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston has one of the most prestigious internships and they accept allow international students to complete their internships there.

http://academicdepartments.musc.edu/psychology_internship/selection_of_candidates09.htm

I'm not fully sure about this, although it might depend on how you're defining "complete an internship at a VA." In order to be funded by the VA, I believe you need to be a US citizen. Thus, attaining an internship at a VA-only site might not be possible.

However, if you go to a consortium that includes a VA, and the funding (as you've said) comes from some source other than the VA, then that could work.
 
This also depends on the VA's requirements for you doing a rotation there. I'm not sure if the VA requires WOC (without compensation employee) status at the intern level (or if this varies by individual VA), but in order to attain this, I'm pretty sure you have to meet employment requirements for the VA even though that's not where the money is coming from.

I'm fairly positive non-US citizens actually can obtain WOC status and rotate through the VA; I think the stipulation is just that they can't be funded by the VA.
 
Thank you again, guys.

Two questions: what does VA mean and why is it better than other types of internship?

Second one: is research experience required for PsyD programs, as well?
 
I'm fairly positive non-US citizens actually can obtain WOC status and rotate through the VA; I think the stipulation is just that they can't be funded by the VA.

That's correct. Funding is the issue (i.e. individuals who aren't citizen's usually can't be paid with federal money), but it is certainly possible to work at a VA without compensation if it is part of a consortium or a similar set-up. So, yes, as long as funding is coming from a non-VA source it's possible for international students to complete their internships at [most] VA sites. This does differ from site to site. Sites where the internship program is housed within the VA, it'll likely be a requirement that you are a citizen.

This also depends on the VA's requirements for you doing a rotation there. I'm not sure if the VA requires WOC (without compensation employee) status at the intern level (or if this varies by individual VA), but in order to attain this, I'm pretty sure you have to meet employment requirements for the VA even though that's not where the money is coming from.

I think it differs. I know for a fact that an international student at my current institution is currently doing her externship at a VA (of course without compensation).

My point is that as an international student you may be restricted in certain ways in terms of the places you can complete extern- and internships at, but you're by no means doomed to the point where you're unable to complete the degree.
 
Individual VAs may have policies regarding those appointments though. I know we have had some international students who were given flat-out "no's" when applying for practicum at the VA for this reason. Of course, this may have been due to an unwillingness to do extra paperwork or an incompetent HR office that didn't know how. I wouldn't be surprised if it was feasible if someone pushed hard enough, but the ability to work at one even without compensation is not necessarily guaranteed. .

All that said - I generally agree with the above. I know many international students who have successfully completed the degree. It seems to introduce some hurdles, but not insurmountable ones.
 
It sounds like the OP though is interested in a clinical career, not a research one. If he wants a clinical career in the US, he will be very hard pressed to find clinical jobs and post-docs that take people without permanent residency status. I have not come across any that don't require at least permanent residency so i don't think this part is so easy. You guys are referring to research internships/practicums, but what happens when he graduates and wants to pursue a clinical career?
 
Well, the OP asked about obtaining his doctoral degree in the US, not about working here afterwards.
I agree, finding a clinical position without permanent residency will be next to impossible. But completing a doctoral degree in clinical psych is definitely a doable undertaking.
 
Of course, this may have been due to an unwillingness to do extra paperwork or an incompetent HR office that didn't know how. I wouldn't be surprised if it was feasible if someone pushed hard enough, but the ability to work at one even without compensation is not necessarily guaranteed. .

Ha, based on my experience trying to find employment after my MA, you are right on the money!

Thank you again, guys.

Two questions: what does VA mean and why is it better than other types of internship?

Second one: is research experience required for PsyD programs, as well?

VA means veteran hospitals. They were first established for historical reasons and make up a big chunk of APA-accredited internships. They tend to provide good training experience too. I'm not sure why (or if) they are considered superior to other APA-accredited internship sites.

It's also true that significantly fewer clinical positions will accept international graduates thanUS citizens or permanent residents. But I think the key underlying issue is not the status but the cost and logistics involved and the HR not wanting to deal with extra paperwork. Except a few government-affiliated positions or positions that handles national security, all positions should be "open" to international graduates. Sometimes they will say only citizens or permanent residents can apply but that's kind of a grey area. On the other hand, for a company to sponsor someone a green card, the company must demonstrate that they cannot hire a US citizen that's qualified for or willing to do the job.

I'm not sure about the research requirements for PsyD programs. In theory they should be at least less rigorous, but I guess this varies by programs. However, if you just want an education in the US and are not seriously planning to get licensed here, or if you are interested in teaching, you can consider CACREP-accredited Counselor Education EdD or PhD programs. Some of them provide excellent training too. While research interest match is also an important consideration for them, they are less competitive and they tend to emphasize that they want people who truly want to become "counselor educators" instead of researchers. You can see a list of such programs here: http://www.cacrep.org/index.cfm/finding-a-cacrep-program

Hope this helps.
 
So will an international students eligible to apply for clinical neuropsychology post-doctoral fellowship? I know international students that go for the post-doc route usually rely on the Optional Practical Training (OPT) associated with the student visa which allow them to work in related field up to one year. However, most of the neuropsychology fellowships are designated as two year programs. Moreover, a lot of neuropsychology fellowships are provided by VA hospital. Anyone know if there are intenational students successfully obtain such trainings?
 
So will an international students eligible to apply for clinical neuropsychology post-doctoral fellowship? I know international students that go for the post-doc route usually rely on the Optional Practical Training (OPT) associated with the student visa which allow them to work in related field up to one year. However, most of the neuropsychology fellowships are designated as two year programs. Moreover, a lot of neuropsychology fellowships are provided by VA hospital. Anyone know if there are intenational students successfully obtain such trainings?

You have two options:
  1. You can try to get an OPT extension. However, given that your 'major' is clinical psychology, this may be a bit more difficult. It may be possible to argue that whatever you're doing can be considered to be part of a STEM field.
  2. You can switch to a J1 visa after your OPT expires. As a matter of fact, people who don't study in the US but complete their post-docs here, usually do so on a J1 visa. Another alternative is H1B but it's much easier to get a J1 than H1B.
 
AMCs (which are also popular locations for neuro post-docs) are often quite familiar with hiring international post-docs. Its much more common in other fields (basic sciences) for post-docs to come from abroad. I know several here and it seemed a fairly smooth process for them to get brought in. Of course, you need to be ready and qualified for work in an AMC setting, which usually means a stronger research CV than would be expected at other places.
 
AMCs (which are also popular locations for neuro post-docs) are often quite familiar with hiring international post-docs. Its much more common in other fields (basic sciences) for post-docs to come from abroad. I know several here and it seemed a fairly smooth process for them to get brought in. Of course, you need to be ready and qualified for work in an AMC setting, which usually means a stronger research CV than would be expected at other places.

Thanks for your suggestion. Can you please elaborate more about what classfies "AMC setting"?
 
Well, the OP asked about obtaining his doctoral degree in the US, not about working here afterwards.
I agree, finding a clinical position without permanent residency will be next to impossible. But completing a doctoral degree in clinical psych is definitely a doable undertaking.

From what you guys are saying it seems that doing a PsyD in the US doesn't make a lot of sense without the green card. (Preparing for work in a specific healthcare system only to be kicked out afterwards due to no residency status doesn't sound exciting to me). And for a PhD I lack the research experience.
I don't think particularly highly of the Polish educational system and would still like to complete my study abroad, but in that case I will probably stick to Europe. Out of curiosity: do you know if after completing a program like that:
http://www.oxicpt.co.uk/
my title/skills would be transferrable to the US if I ever decided to live there (given that I would have the green card, of course).
 
From what you guys are saying it seems that doing a PsyD in the US doesn't make a lot of sense without the green card. (Preparing for work in a specific healthcare system only to be kicked out afterwards due to no residency status doesn't sound exciting to me). And for a PhD I lack the research experience.
I don't think particularly highly of the Polish educational system and would still like to complete my study abroad, but in that case I will probably stick to Europe. Out of curiosity: do you know if after completing a program like that:
http://www.oxicpt.co.uk/
my title/skills would be transferrable to the US if I ever decided to live there (given that I would have the green card, of course).

I may be mistaken, but it sounded like you just wanted to complete your degree in the US. You didn't mention that you hoped to stay here afterwards which, as mentioned, will be next to impossible if you don't have permanent residency. However, if you plan going back to Poland, I wouldn't write off getting your degree here. You'd need to get in touch with the authorities there and check in what capacity you can transfer you degree/credentials.
 
[However, if you plan going back to Poland, I wouldn't write off getting your degree here. You'd need to get in touch with the authorities there and check in what capacity you can transfer you degree/credentials.[/QUOTE]

It's a great question. I don't know whether a US PsyD/PHD degree in clinical psychology will transfer abroad if you want to practice clinically. Since poland is part of the EU, it may be easier to study in europe if you want to practice there.
 
It's a great question. I don't know whether a US PsyD/PHD degree in clinical psychology will transfer abroad if you want to practice clinically. Since poland is part of the EU, it may be easier to study in europe if you want to practice there.

Professions related to psychology/psychotherapy are very poorly regulated in Poland. In fact, I could open a private practice right now (without any skills or qualifications) and it wouldn't be illegal. The market regulates itself by word of mouth more or less. But I am not so keen on staying in this country anyway. I speak 4 languages fluently and would hate letting that go to waste. To help you understand: the ballpark salary for a clinical psychologist in Poland would probably be somewhere around $10,000. There is far too little understanding and respect for psychologists/psychiatrists/etc.

To sum up: I am intent on studying and staying abroad. I thought of the US first because a US-earned degree tends to be respected worldwide and I am not sure where I want to end up. But from what you guys have been writing so far I have the impression the advantages of a US degree won't outweigh the problems related to studying in the US.

Back to my question from before: do you know if it is possible to practice as a psychologist in the US with a foreign (e.g. British) doctoral title? Yes/no/depends? I am trying to find the most "universal" degree...
 
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Back to my question from before: do you know if it is possible to practice as a psychologist in the US with a foreign (e.g. British) doctoral title? Yes/no/depends? I am trying to find the most "universal" degree...

No direct experience with this myself, but I've heard that it is extremely difficult to have training from abroad transfer into the U.S. The systems are different, so equivalency between doctorates is not assumed and difficult to prove. The Canadian system is structured similarly to that of the U.S., so I think those who train in Canada have an easier time getting licensed in America than those who train in Europe or elsewhere. You could try looking into schools in Canada, though the vast majority offer the PhD and will expect students to come in with research experience.
 
Hello everyone.

I have already found a lot of useful information on this forum. I have some questions specific to my situation, though, and would be grateful for your input.

I am Polish and have an MA in Philosophy from a university in Poland. I have a strong interest in clinical psychology and psychotherapy (have done a Gestalt-therapy related internship here) and would love to continue my education in the US.

From what I've gathered so far, these are some decisive factors:
1) I have never had any hands-on experience with scientific research, so this is a major drawback.
2) To get a student visa, I will have to prove that my WHOLE study will be financed. I don't have a $50K trust fund so I will have to opt for a program where you get paid (i.e., either Baylor PsyD or a PhD, it seems) unless I manage to get private funding for the whole curriculum (not an easy task).
3) I am more interested in the practical part of the profession (actually working with people) so I need to find a program which isn't strictly limited to research
4) I have graduated in 2009 so I've had a break from the university. Not sure if this would be a problem for the admission committees.
5) In my country it is not customary for professors to write recommendations for students, so I will have to limit my choices to only a few schools in order not to strain my professors' patience.

My question to you is: given the aforementioned criteria, what programs would you recommend?
As a potential international applicant I strongly recommend the latest edition of John Norcross et al.'s the Insider's Guide to Graduate Programs in Clinical and Counseling Psychology.
 
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