Even if you go straight into med school, you don't make money til you're like 32

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Elbowstoopointy

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Start med school at 22 (DEBT)
Graduate at 25-26 (Make nothing)
Finish residency at 28-29 (Make 30k...aka 5 bucks an hour)
Finish fellowship at 31-32 (PGY4 make like 50k)
33 years old make 300k if you're lucky...imagine if you only made 150k after all that while you're 300k in debt...

MEANWHILE back at the ranch...

Engineer: 90,000 starting salary at 22 years old.....

In before pre-meds give a speech about how they are saving the world...
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Elbowstoopointy said:
Start med school at 22 (DEBT)
Graduate at 25-26 (Make nothing)
Finish residency at 28-29 (Make 30k...aka 5 bucks an hour)
Finish fellowship at 31-32 (PGY4 make like 50k)
33 years old make 300k if you're lucky...imagine if you only made 150k after all that while you're 300k in debt...

MEANWHILE back at the ranch...

Engineer: 90,000 starting salary at 22 years old.....

In before pre-meds give a speech about how they are saving the world...
Click to expand...

You annoying little naive, ignorant student. God. It's a godo thing I have this bottle of double espresso vodka to help calm my nerves. Why are you posting this here? Think about it, because you obviously didn't consider using your cerebral functions in this context. WTF makes you think that every engineering grad makes 90k? Use some ****ing common sense when posting a thread about "lol, we're ****ed because engineers w/ bs make 90k!". It's beyond naive and ******ed because it isn't true. Do you want me to go and find engineers w/o jobs? Those working at starbucks? Those that make 30k/yr because they couldn't cut it? Or would itm ake you feel better if I found people w/ bs's in biology that mdae that much?


OH WAIT - This argument is ******ed because you're comparing apples to oranges. Despite making 70k/yr, I still couldn't stand working at pharmaceuticals despite whatever promotions were in store. Also, if you're really doing this for the money, you're gonna be trolled hard...


Annoying...really.
 
Double.. espresso.. vodka :eek:
 
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I'm having trouble figuring out what the point of this thread is besides making the OP look like a complete dbag. And I don't know any engineers who started out making 90k at 22 years old and I went to a big engineering school for undergrad.
 
Elbowstoopointy said:
Start med school at 22 (DEBT)
Graduate at 25-26 (Make nothing)
Finish residency at 28-29 (Make 30k...aka 5 bucks an hour)
Finish fellowship at 31-32 (PGY4 make like 50k)
33 years old make 300k if you're lucky...imagine if you only made 150k after all that while you're 300k in debt...

MEANWHILE back at the ranch...

Engineer: 90,000 starting salary at 22 years old.....

In before pre-meds give a speech about how they are saving the world...
Click to expand...

your numbers for residency pay are quite off
 
Kaustikos said:
You annoying little naive, ignorant student. God. It's a godo thing I have this bottle of double espresso vodka to help calm my nerves. Why are you posting this here? Think about it, because you obviously didn't consider using your cerebral functions in this context. WTF makes you think that every engineering grad makes 90k? Use some ****ing common sense when posting a thread about "lol, we're ****ed because engineers w/ bs make 90k!". It's beyond naive and ******ed because it isn't true. Do you want me to go and find engineers w/o jobs? Those working at starbucks? Those that make 30k/yr because they couldn't cut it? Or would itm ake you feel better if I found people w/ bs's in biology that mdae that much?


OH WAIT - This argument is ******ed because you're comparing apples to oranges. Despite making 70k/yr, I still couldn't stand working at pharmaceuticals despite whatever promotions were in store. Also, if you're really doing this for the money, you're gonna be trolled hard...


Annoying...really.
Click to expand...

How intoxicated were you when you posted this? Also, interesting to hear a future doctor openly use the word "******"
 
elbowstoopointy/10
 
Elbowstoopointy said:
How intoxicated were you when you posted this? Also, interesting to hear a future doctor openly use the word "******"...mature
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Only took 8 more posts to invoke Burnett's Law.
 
Elbowstoopointy said:
Start med school at 22 (DEBT)
Graduate at 25-26 (Make nothing)
Finish residency at 28-29 (Make 30k...aka 5 bucks an hour)
Finish fellowship at 31-32 (PGY4 make like 50k)
33 years old make 300k if you're lucky...imagine if you only made 150k after all that while you're 300k in debt...

MEANWHILE back at the ranch...

Engineer: 90,000 starting salary at 22 years old.....

In before pre-meds give a speech about how they are saving the world...
Click to expand...

:sleep:
 
This thread went nowhere fast
 
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Elbowstoopointy said:
Start med school at 22 (DEBT)
Graduate at 25-26 (Make nothing)
Finish residency at 28-29 (Make 30k...aka 5 bucks an hour)
Finish fellowship at 31-32 (PGY4 make like 50k)
33 years old make 300k if you're lucky...imagine if you only made 150k after all that while you're 300k in debt...

MEANWHILE back at the ranch...

Engineer: 90,000 starting salary at 22 years old.....

In before pre-meds give a speech about how they are saving the world...
Click to expand...

Where are you getting all these numbers from? They're basically all wrong.

I know an engineer who started off near 90 after UG but AFAIK that is the exception, not the rule
 
Elbowstoopointy said:
Start med school at 22 (DEBT)
Graduate at 25-26 (Make nothing)
Finish residency at 28-29 (Make 30k...aka 5 bucks an hour)
Finish fellowship at 31-32 (PGY4 make like 50k)
33 years old make 300k if you're lucky...imagine if you only made 150k after all that while you're 300k in debt...

MEANWHILE back at the ranch...

Engineer: 90,000 starting salary at 22 years old.....

In before pre-meds give a speech about how they are saving the world...
Click to expand...

Dude, I'm an engineer and I can tell you 90k starting salary is either extremely lucky or it takes LOTs of work experience. Any new graduate will make around 50-60k. Why the hell would a company give 90k to a student when they have professionals that can do the job much better. It's training time and the first job is the hardest to get. Even if you rise up, the max you can make is 150k unless you're CEO. Guys like Bill Gates and Steven Jobs were just at the right place at the right time, but 90% of the engineers are just employees, not owners of companies.
 
make money at 32 :eek: ? ..... Whoohooo Almost There!!!!! :uhno:
 
People seem to be really hung up on the numbers. Yes, that's high for an engineer fresh out of school and yes that's low for residents who make closer to 40-45k a year starting.

However, the point behind the post is true and a very real consideration. The cost of med school is far greater than just the enormous loans. If only the people who think doctors make too much would consider this.
 
DeadCactus said:
Help help! I'm being oppressed! They only pay me the median income of all US households!
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The median income is for those who have not invested 7-10 years going into debt, not saving for retirement/kids college AND who generally work double the hours of that person earning the median income.

PS - Medicine is the only field full of people who think its a sin to make money. What do you think would happen if the government cut payment by 30% to nurses/engineers/scientists/etc.

Are you honestly saying that when you go searching for a job that you'll turn down any offer for over the median American income?
 
Sheldor said:
The median income is for those who have not invested 7-10 years going into debt, not saving for retirement/kids college AND who generally work double the hours of that person earning the median income.

PS - Medicine is the only field full of people who think its a sin to make money. What do you think would happen if the government cut payment by 30% to nurses/engineers/scientists/etc.

Are you honestly saying that when you go searching for a job that you'll turn down any offer for over the median American income?
Click to expand...

No, they spent 7-10 years struggling to get by so they can do it for the next 3 decades. It's hilarious when people try to turn something like having to save for retirement or a college fund into some kind of burden we bear. Those things are luxuries we get to enjoy as a benefit of having a reliable and high income following medical training. s for double the hour, that may or may not be true. Those are household incomes and I would wager many of them include dual income families and significant overtime.

It's not a sin to make money or want to make more. It is, however, asinine to lose perspective on the fact that you're in the top 0.5% of luxury in the world bitching and whining because you see the guy in the top 0.1% driving down the street in a nicer car. I hardly see keeping perspective on how my financial situation compares to the rest of the US and the rest of the world translates into a refusal to earn more or a lack of desire to maximize my wealth.

Yes, people grossly overestimate the wealth medical education leads to. That doesn't mean it's still not a terrific financial situation to land in. Sorry, 10 years of one of the most exclusive educations in the world and a reliable top-tier income don't put you up on the cross as a martyr for humanity...
 
Sheldor said:
The median income is for those who have not invested 7-10 years going into debt, not saving for retirement/kids college AND who generally work double the hours of that person earning the median income.

PS - Medicine is the only field full of people who think its a sin to make money. What do you think would happen if the government cut payment by 30% to nurses/engineers/scientists/etc.

Are you honestly saying that when you go searching for a job that you'll turn down any offer for over the median American income?
Click to expand...

Well in the case of engineers, when things go south for the economy or company they just get let go and often spend many months finding a new job or have to move across country. Granted engineers have it much better than other people when it comes to getting sacked in a bad economy, but they arent immune.

In the case of scientists, they spend their 6 -7 years getting a PhD, then get stuck in post-doc purgatory for awhile. Finally they might get a tenure track job, then they are pulling out their hair to publish something awesome in the next couple years or else they won't get tenure and have to start over somewhere else.

While physician salaries might get cut, at least for now there is no real risk of being unemployed unless you do something crazy or are massively selective about where you want to live.
 
DeadCactus said:
No, they spent 7-10 years struggling to get by so they can do it for the next 3 decades. It's hilarious when people try to turn something like having to save for retirement or a college fund into some kind of burden we bear. Those things are luxuries we get to enjoy as a benefit of having a reliable and high income following medical training. s for double the hour, that may or may not be true. Those are household incomes and I would wager many of them include dual income families and significant overtime.

It's not a sin to make money or want to make more. It is, however, asinine to lose perspective on the fact that you're in the top 0.5% of luxury in the world bitching and whining because you see the guy in the top 0.1% driving down the street in a nicer car. I hardly see keeping perspective on how my financial situation compares to the rest of the US and the rest of the world translates into a refusal to earn more or a lack of desire to maximize my wealth.

Yes, people grossly overestimate the wealth medical education leads to. That doesn't mean it's still not a terrific financial situation to land in. Sorry, 10 years of one of the most exclusive educations in the world and a reliable top-tier income don't put you up on the cross as a martyr for humanity...
Click to expand...

Great post.

Yes, medicine requires a lot of hard work but it is a very good gig for which you don't have to do anything special to attain. Simply work hard and be reasonably intelligent and you have a very high paying job for as long as you want.

Of course I rather not have salaries go down but it's hard to say exactly how much physicians deserve. I do know I won't complain if I "only" can afford a 5 series and not a 7.

Med school is an investment and if you want greater return on that investment either work your ass off and get into a high paying specialty or be willing to work more places. It's unlikely you'll end up with the Malibu beach house and a Ferrari but that's the case for every single field.
 
miui said:
Sounds delicious. :D


You most likely will need years of experience to hit those digits,
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Electrical_Engineer/Salary/by_Years_Experience
Click to expand...

Engineers don't make 90k out of school unless they do Petroleum Engineering with a BS degree or Chemical Engineering with a BS degree. 80-90k is possible with a Masters in Electrical and Computer Engineering. Other than that you're relegated to the 50s. BS in Civil ~50K, BS in Mechanical ~ 56k, BS in Electrical ~56K etc.
 
You forgot about mentioning the economic cost too as in the money that you would have made if you went into something else.

I can imagine that we're not in it for the money, otherwise we would be in some other field.
 
Funky said:
You forgot about mentioning the economic cost too as in the money that you would have made if you went into something else.

I can imagine that we're not in it for the money, otherwise we would be in some other field.
Click to expand...

Referred to as the opportunity cost or the cost of the next best alternative. Yes, many people fail to include that in their analysis of physician compensation. I'm an Econ major. I wish Economics was required in undergraduate curriculum.
 
Paine said:
I'd rather personal finance than economics. One is inherently more useful on the micro level than pure theory.
Click to expand...

Agreed. A lot of doctors I've met have talked about their financial troubles and it really comes down to stupidity involving personal trading, bad investments, and just plain not saving money throughout their career.
 
The undergrad econ class I took in undergrad was more of a statistics class, so it was just reading charts with numbers and doing some small calculations there and there. But it definitely did not feel like something that helped me with finances, was more of a "Glad I am not going into business" sort of class. :laugh:
 
postbacpremed87 said:
Referred to as the opportunity cost or the cost of the next best alternative. Yes, many people fail to include that in their analysis of physician compensation. I'm an Econ major. I wish Economics was required in undergraduate curriculum.
Click to expand...
My undergraduate degree is in Economics and I wouldn't wish that hell on anyone.

That major's drier than an 80 year woman's cooter.
 
Paine said:
I'd rather personal finance than economics. One is inherently more useful on the micro level than pure theory.
Click to expand...

Economics explains why physicians should be compensated at the level they are. That's what I was trying to point out. Yes, financial management is important too, but economics would make people better voters.
 
Nice post by dead cactus.

I think people overestimate medicine as a path to wealth. For some maybe, but not most.

In the end, I'm very happy to be pursuing and grateful for the opportunity even though there is a lot of work and sacrifice.

But we all knew that going in, right?

I enjoy this stuff. It's an interesting field.
 
postbacpremed87 said:
Economics explains why physicians should be compensated at the level they are. That's what I was trying to point out. Yes, financial management is important too, but economics would make people better voters.
Click to expand...

You do know the political leanings of most economists correct? The majority of them vote for people who support policies you don't.

(Im defining economist as someone with a PhD in economics)
 
If you are going to bring up opportunity cost, you better bring up job stability too. I dont think I would be going out on a limb to say a primary care physician can secure a 150K+ salary for their entire career with no job interruptions.

Engineering on the other hands have more lay-offs, budget-cuts, and moving requirements causing them to loose more money.

Granted some engineers will get lucky, but I think medicine is the most secure profession, next to being a prostitute for the next 20 years.
 
link2swim06 said:
If you are going to bring up opportunity cost, you better bring up job stability too. I dont think I would be going out on a limb to say a primary care physician can secure a 150K+ salary for their entire career with no job interruptions.

Engineering on the other hands have more lay-offs, budget-cuts, and moving requirements causing them to loose more money.

Granted some engineers will get lucky, but I think medicine is the most secure profession, next to being a prostitute for the next 20 years.
Click to expand...

That was my go-to answer to "What will you do if you don't get into medicine?" 4 years ago. "simple. Prostitution. No question." Interviewers ate that **** up.
 
Druggernaut said:
Because we don't. He was providing inaccurate numbers to try to make his point. I'm not sure why, since we all knew what we were getting into when we started... This shouldn't be news to anyone.
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shame shame shame
 
surftheiop said:
You do know the political leanings of most economists correct? The majority of them vote for people who support policies you don't.

(Im defining economist as someone with a PhD in economics)
Click to expand...

Depends which school of economic thought they believe in. There are conservative economists out there and thank God for them. Austrian School of Economics for the win.
 
postbacpremed87 said:
Referred to as the opportunity cost or the cost of the next best alternative. Yes, many people fail to include that in their analysis of physician compensation. I'm an Econ major. I wish Economics was required in undergraduate curriculum.
Click to expand...
Yes! Opportunity cost! I think I was thinking about what that call accounting costs vs economic costs. I was an econ major once upon a time too :)
 
Elbowstoopointy said:
How intoxicated were you when you posted this? Also, interesting to hear a future doctor openly use the word "******"
Click to expand...

I just reread what you said. It's still stupid. Congrats.

Also, really?
 
postbacpremed87 said:
Depends which school of economic thought they believe in. There are conservative economists out there and thank God for them. Austrian School of Economics for the win.
Click to expand...

Despite what the Mises institute tells you, they are in the extreme minority of economists.
 
Last edited:
Between my wife (in a non-medical career) and my income, we're doing quite well in residency. We're on track to be out of debt before we finish and have a great quality of life in a very high cost of living area. Most importantly, I absolutely love my job which I never said as an engineer.

The caveat here is that we are not really into material goods and have relatively cheap hobbies (rock-climbing and cycling), but I can't see a lot of that changing even if we had more money.
 
Entering medical school, I actually feel quite lucky that as long as I continue studying hard, I am pretty much guaranteed a perfectly reasonable salary for a graduate for a couple of years before then earning considerably more than the average worker or even household later on. Sure its hard work to get into MS, through MS then residency etc. but there is a financial security to it which you don't really find in any other career path.
 
2012mdc said:
Of course I rather not have salaries go down but it's hard to say exactly how much physicians deserve. I do know I won't complain if I "only" can afford a 5 series and not a 7.
Click to expand...

I'd rather not have salaries go down as well. Of course, everybody in every job in the world feels this way except medicine, but thats a conversation for later.

I did want to comment on the last part of your statement though, as I think that is the big problem. I think most people would agree with it, like you said, its only going from a 7 series to a 5 series. However, this is a slippery slope because in a few years doctors will be dealing with going from a 5 series to a 3, and so and and so on until you are eating ramen noodles and driving a barely running POS because the student loan company has taken you to collections.

My point is this: There is nothing inherently evil with wanting to earn money, and not wanting your salary to decrease. Even though physicians are starting at a level that is great, that doesn't mean it always will be. People saying, "I'm so thankful that I'm guaranteed a job that pays well in a a few years as long as I make it through medical school" make me sick! There is no guarantee that that income will still be there if people keep not caring. I would be interested to see a graph of nurses salaries vs doctors salaries over the last few decades. I can guarantee the slopes would be opposite.
 
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