Evolution DNA and Faith

[jArsOfClay]

I've read a lot of books and articles lately that offer interesting evidence that Evolution is not necessarily as sound a theory as our biology professors would have us believe.

Being a medical student, I am of course compelled to acknowledge the overwhelming evidence of the possibility of evolution. However being a Christian drives me even more powerfully to believe what the bible says.

Right now the most bothersome aspect of the evolutionary theory is the Neanderthals. Does anyone know of any information that proposes that the Neanderthals could have just been Homo Sapiens with a very common Genetic Defect of that pre-historic period.

Any other interesting thoughts?

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[doctorcynical]

Originally posted by jArsOfClay
I've read a lot of books and articles lately that offer interesting evidence that Evolution is not necessarily as sound a theory as our biology professors would have us believe.

Being a medical student, I am of course compelled to acknowledge the overwhelming evidence of the possibility of evolution. However being a Christian drives me even more powerfully to believe what the bible says.

Right now the most bothersome aspect of the evolutionary theory is the Neanderthals. Does anyone know of any information that proposes that the Neanderthals could have just been Homo Sapiens with a very common Genetic Defect of that pre-historic period.

Any other interesting thoughts?

Religion and medicine shouldn't mix. There is a Colombia professor fighting for this.

 

[Brickhouse]

Originally posted by jArsOfClay
I've read a lot of books and articles lately that offer interesting evidence that Evolution is not necessarily as sound a theory as our biology professors would have us believe.

Being a medical student, I am of course compelled to acknowledge the overwhelming evidence of the possibility of evolution. However being a Christian drives me even more powerfully to believe what the bible says.

Right now the most bothersome aspect of the evolutionary theory is the Neanderthals. Does anyone know of any information that proposes that the Neanderthals could have just been Homo Sapiens with a very common Genetic Defect of that pre-historic period.

Any other interesting thoughts?

This should be in the "everyone" forum.

 

[Gleevec]

Well, evolutionarily, Neanderthals could be considered one huge genetic defect, since all of their kind were wiped out due to natural selection due to their lack of fitness.

But this is obviously not you were asking, and the fact is, most of the holes in evolutionary theory will be plugged up. The beauty of science is that it is open to constant criticism and self-evaluation from within, unlike the church which decrees something and sticks with it until the last possible minute regardless of its accuracy.

I dont think science's honesty regarding evolution should be considered as a weakness in the theory of evolution, but rather a strength in the scientific method afforded even the most "factual" of theories continued observation and questioning.

Let's face it, science is right on this one. And its not even in the "perfection" of the human that we see the truth of evolution, but rather all the "mistakes" evolution has made that no intelligent creator would ever have implemented.

 

[felipe5]

The question of whether homo sapiens sapiens (ie modern humans) evolved from Neanderthals, or if where just out there completely out there on their own is a really tricky one to solve. I'm not really sure if there has been any comparative studies on a genetic level to compare modern humans (even of the late paleolithic.) to Neanderthals....anyone know if they've done comparative molecular studies???

Although modern humans appeared a bit later than neanderthals, they did even share habitats and even possibly competed for sustenance (even though this is debated...they've found remains in similar locations dating back the same).....outside of the world of genetics, paleoarcheologists are trying to compare neanderthal and modern human remains from the same areas/same time to see if behavior can shed any light on this mystery.

So, to answer your question about a specific defect......I don't know, and I'm not sure if anyone knows for sure!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jArsOfClay]

Interesting Remarks, though I disagree due to the insanely low probability that the complexity of the DNA/RNA mechanism could have come about in only 400 million years (I know it seems like a long time, but I still don't see it happening without unknown intervention)

Let's face it, DNA is a language. Languages rarely occur by chance (probably not ever). And please don't say aliens seeded the earth!!!

I'll move this topic elsewhere to prevent offending your obviously enlightened minds.

 

[felipe5]

Originally posted by jArsOfClay


I'll move this topic elsewhere to prevent offending your obviously enlightened minds.

awwwwww, i really liked this topic!!!!!!!! oh well, i guess if its not about the MCAT or rankings and has a bit of controversy, people may freak out about this topic ....good thread good thread

 

[nrosigh]

not to offend, but... what's to like about this topic?

It's getting kinda old already, it comes up about once every two weeks and everyone rolls their eyes... sorry

 

[uclacrewdude]

Originally posted by doctorcynical
Religion and medicine shouldn't mix. There is a Colombia professor fighting for this.

note: i wholeheartedly embrace science (incl. evolution) as my religion.

this makes me think of the movie contact, where they didnt select Ellie to be the representative for Earth on the grounds that she was atheistic. "i just cant see sending a representative who believes that 99% of the world is wrong."

religion and medicine must mix b/c patients are religious -- this is a basic concept all students are taught in their first yr. in fact, after drugs, prayer is the most common response to try and alleviate pain. while religion can easily be warped and confer authoritarianism, prejudice, rigidity, dependence, and guilt, religious people tend towards lower levels of depression, substance abuse, and antisocial behavior as well as higher levels of general happiness and satisfaction (deferentially religious people are still more susceptible to the highs and lows of life than collaboratively religious people). just something to think about.

religion and medicine must not mix in the science -- this is true. but the second you start interacting with pts (unless youre path or rads, in which case you probably werent a people person anyway) there should be some mention of religion. actually most people prefer at least being asked about their spirituality, esp since they see the dr as a role model, and nonreligious people dont mind being asked about it.

if youre looking for evolution proof, look at dinosaurs for proof of macroevolution and influenza viruses for microevolution. how can evolution and christianity coexist? my theory: the only thing wrong with christianity is the christians.

edit: also note that RNA is autocatalytic, so once you do get ribonucleotides in the mix, evolution should at least begin.

 

[Jugador75]

It's scary that religious extremists like jarsofclay are going into medicine. Makes you think of Johova's witness people who refuse to allow their children to receive blood transfusions, even if it will save their life.

 

[JohnHolmes]

Wrong forum. Can a mod please move this?

CCW

 

[jlee9531]

Originally posted by Jugador75
It's scary that religious extremists like jarsofclay are going into medicine. Makes you think of Johova's witness people who refuse to allow their children to receive blood transfusions, even if it will save their life.

usc does procedures called blood-free tranfusions...which is just basically they have techniques they can use on people with religious needs to greatly reduce the amount of blood loss during an operation so that something can be done without getting a blood transfusion.

 

[uclacrewdude]

Originally posted by jlee9531
usc does procedures called blood-free tranfusions...which is just basically they have techniques they can use on people with religious needs to greatly reduce the amount of blood loss during an operation so that something can be done without getting a blood transfusion.

course, at 'sc, this amounts to putting a bucket under the OR table, then just dumping its contents back into the body cavity at the end of the op.

what do you expect -- i bleed blue and gold!

 

[juddson]

Originally posted by jArsOfClay


Let's face it, DNA is a language. Languages rarely occur by chance (probably not ever). And please don't say aliens seeded the earth!!!

[/B]

How is the idea that Aliens seeded the earth any more farfetched than the notion that some superior being did so?

hmm??

I am MUCH more inclined to accept the existence of aliens than that of an omnipotent god. Though, I don't happen to think Aliens seeded the earth.

But let's think about it for a minute. (I remember some of this from a science program I saw a number of years ago). The apparent age of the earth is something like 4.5 billions years old. A liberal estimate of the age of modern humanity is in the neighborhood of (at the outset) 150,000 years (and probably more like 50,000 years). Assuming we date humanity to the beginning of this early estimate, we have been walking on the earth for just the last .003% of the apparent age of the earth. If you plotted the age of the earth along a meter stick, we showed up on earth during the very last 30 micrometers (I just got up - somebody check my math).

Given that we JUST got here, how do we know that aliens have not been to visit the earth as many as 10,000 times, finding nobody here turned around and went home before we even showed up. How do we know during the 10,001 time, they didn't leave a bit of DNA to swim around, or speciman or whatever?

Just think about it.

Judd

 

[jlee9531]

Originally posted by uclacrewdude
course, at 'sc, this amounts to putting a bucket under the OR table, then just dumping its contents back into the body cavity at the end of the op.

what do you expect -- i bleed blue and gold!

true that...

 

[Runtita]

Originally posted by juddson
I am MUCH more inclined to accept the existence of aliens than that of an omnipotent god.

I'm with you on this issue!

Or...what if God IS/WAS an alien? After all, couldn't a sufficiently advanced civilization appear omnipotent to us?

"Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke.

 

[pre-money]

jlee9531, there is no need to be scared for those who are just as compassionate if not more than eveyone else...

compassion and care for those in need are central to most religion..especially Christianity..i'm no jehovah's witness..and don't claim to know what jehovah's witness believes...

 

[jArsOfClay]

Let me just clarify a few things,

I never said I don't believe in Evolution. It's quite ostensible that evolution has occured. But from Ape to man, that is another very highly divided area of evolution.

Now second, I don't recall saying anything extremist. If I did, please point it out to me.

Third, I support your right to believe whatever you want. After all when it comes to the ultimate creation of the universe any view you accept will be a matter of faith---even the big bang. Why the big bang too you say? Isn't it supported by a mountain of data?

Maybe the idea that the universe is expanding is, but an infinitely small, infinitely dense singularity (redundant I know) didn't come from out of nowhere. Besides the big bang violates laws of thermodynamics and we all know from science class that matter and energy can be neither created nor destroyed right (aside from the fact that they can be created from one another), but we have to admit that it was created at some point by something?

Let me add something here for you detail freaks: whether or not the singularity was an open or closed system is not known and can only be speculated, as I said in another thread, the big bang also violates the law of conservation of angular momentum due to the fact that not all planets have the same spin.

Now notice how quickly this thread strayed into something entirely unlike what I intended it to be. I simply asked does anyone know how far along we are with the Neanderthal genome (basically, maybe I didn't word it like I should have)

If you don't know, don't bother posting your rants. If you don't believe in God. GREAT FOR YOU!!! You're betting nothing against everything!

 

[jlee9531]

Originally posted by pre-money
jlee9531, there is no need to be scared for those who are just as compassionate if not more than eveyone else...

compassion and care for those in need are central to most religion..especially Christianity..i'm no jehovah's witness..and don't claim to know what jehovah's witness believes...

scared? i dont know where you are getting this from.

im a christian with strong faith no doubt.

i was just laughing at crewdude's joke since it was funny. i can have a sense of humor cant i?

 

[JayMiranti]

Hey i like this topic, its something different for once

I guess my question to the OP is:

Do you think animals ( non-human ) have souls? (insert your all dogs go to heaven joke here)

I mean, it seems that this whole debate over the existence of a creator is based around MAN, humans. Sure, i dont think monkeys are thinking about purpose, and truth, and all that philosophical stuff that leads us to believe we are "what was intended".

But if man is the Be all end all of evolution, and evolution was just a means to this end, do you think there will be no further evolution? and what is to come of the other beings we live with?

Just curious as to what a religious person may say, as ive found it rare to encounter such scientific religious people.

 

[jArsOfClay]

Originally posted by JayMiranti
Hey i like this topic, its something different for once

I guess my question to the OP is:

Do you think animals ( non-human ) have souls? (insert your all dogs go to heaven joke here)

I mean, it seems that this whole debate over the existence of a creator is based around MAN, humans. Sure, i dont think monkeys are thinking about purpose, and truth, and all that philosophical stuff that leads us to believe we are "what was intended".

But if man is the Be all end all of evolution, and evolution was just a means to this end, do you think there will be no further evolution? and what is to come of the other beings we live with?

Just curious as to what a religious person may say, as ive found it rare to encounter such scientific religious people.

Do animals have souls? Hmmm? I'll tell you this: I don't know. But I do know that sometimes I have emotions that I feel cannot possibly just be due to synaptic junctions firing a healthy dose of neurotransmitters. When I sit alone and think about God for no apparent reason, I can't explain what has induced this emotion. Do dogs do the same thing?

Will man evolve further? Great question? In the past one hundred years we advanced further than we did in the previous 5 million.

I don't know.

 

[Jugador75]

What a whack job. What med school do you go to?

 

[jArsOfClay]

Originally posted by Jugador75
What a whack job. What med school do you go to?

WHAT? Like I said, what did I say that was crazy?

 

[pyroseq]

In the past one hundred years we evolved further than we did in the previous 5 million.

I don't know what you are talking about here. If you mean humans made tremendous cultural/technological advances, then your understanding of evolution is terribly misguided. I suppose you could argue that societies (not humans) have, in some sense, "evolved". To say that allele frequencies in the human population have changed dramatically in the past 100 years compared to the past 5my (the biological definition of evo.) is simply wrong.

 

[jArsOfClay]

Okay okay,

Obviously I was referring to something different. My understanding of evolution is not misguided.

Will we evolve further? I don't know

 

[indianboy]

My understanding of evolution is not misguided.

Of course it isn't, cupcake. I don't know one rational person that would disagree with you.

Hope that Helps.

P 'Get The Passion!' ShankOut

 

[DrMom]

closing per request of OP