Evolutionary Psychology RA position before Clinical Psych PhD?

[gohogwild]

Hi Everyone,

So up until now, I have been en route to becoming a clinical psychologist. Simultaneously, I've been very interested in the modern evolutionary psychology movement (Steven Pinker, Geoffrey Miller, Richard Dawkins) I would say that evo psych is my ultimate passion, and clinical psychology would be a professional way to apply that interest without the uncertainty of academia, I also believe I would do well as a clinical psychologist, and the same has been reflected back to me.

My question is, if I were to get research post-bac from a lab that is focused on evolutionary psychology instead of clinical psychology, would I be screwed? I think it's a risk, but I feel that it could help me further myself into this niche I like so much. Though it would not be gaining experience from a lab focused in clinical science.

For context, I am coming out of undergrad with my name on a paper that is being reviewed for publication in a behavioral neuroscience lab that deals with an animal model. Because it's an animal model, I've been able to link it fairly easily to the idea of evolutionarily informed clinical science (i.e. because the lab related human stress mechanisms to an animal model, we could also see suffering as adaptive since it's present across species, etc).

Thoughts/opinions?

Thank you so much!

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[Ollie123]

I don't know that any sort of research experience would leave you "screwed" but evolutionary psych could make things more difficult. It would be helpful if you found a domain of evo psych with at least a conceivable tie-in to the clinical world, though that's a narrower sample still.

Is the long-term goal a clinical gig or a research gig? Sounded like you were aiming for the former ("uncertainty of academia") but I couldn't be sure. Not to be a downer but broader feelings on evolutionary psychology are....mixed. It is definitely a much tougher area to build a career in. Not much funding available. Many people have very legitimate criticisms about the methodology (or lack thereof), so that would like make it more difficult to find a position.

Did you actually find a post-bac position in an evolutionary psych lab? If not, be forewarned that this itself is likely to be an uphill battle compared to most research positions. Again, not much funding in it so there won't be oodles of grant positions.

 

[summerbabe]

Ultimately, we need to find people to pay us for our work. I was a liberal arts philosophy major and now work as a staff psychologist for the VA. Philosophy is still way more intellectually stimulating than psychology but working as a psychologist is 100% a better fit for me.

In terms of your interests, it would be by far easiest to work as a practicing clinical psychologist (many different options), then as an academic clinical psychologist and then lastly, as an evolutionary psychologist.

Unless you are on a super rigid career timeline or need greater career certainty, I think you should pursue your primary passion for evo psych and see where it leads you. If your passion changes or you find that not enough doors are open in the future, you can always do some focused clinical psych research to prep yourself for a clinical psych PhD, with the primary cost of ‘lost’ time.

And any research you gain in evo psych is better than no research but relevant research (even in lower quantities or with less depth) might trump tangential research from the perspective of the average clinical psych PI. Good luck!

 

[gohogwild]

I don't know that any sort of research experience would leave you "screwed" but evolutionary psych could make things more difficult. It would be helpful if you found a domain of evo psych with at least a conceivable tie-in to the clinical world, though that's a narrower sample still.

Is the long-term goal a clinical gig or a research gig? Sounded like you were aiming for the former ("uncertainty of academia") but I couldn't be sure. Not to be a downer but broader feelings on evolutionary psychology are....mixed. It is definitely a much tougher area to build a career in. Not much funding available. Many people have very legitimate criticisms about the methodology (or lack thereof), so that would like make it more difficult to find a position.

Did you actually find a post-bac position in an evolutionary psych lab? If not, be forewarned that this itself is likely to be an uphill battle compared to most research positions. Again, not much funding in it so there won't be oodles of grant positions.

Hi and thank you for your response. I really appreciate you reflecting these thoughts back to me, as an undergraduate it often feels like I do not have access to the opinions of professionals in the fields without a lot of performative crap in between (except for through this website!). Your response was a summary of things and opinions in more mainstream psych that I had suspected but were not confirmed. Thank you for your insights

 

[gohogwild]

Ultimately, we need to find people to pay us for our work. I was a liberal arts philosophy major and now work as a staff psychologist for the VA. Philosophy is still way more intellectually stimulating than psychology but working as a psychologist is 100% a better fit for me.

In terms of your interests, it would be by far easiest to work as a practicing clinical psychologist (many different options), then as an academic clinical psychologist and then lastly, as an evolutionary psychologist.

Unless you are on a super rigid career timeline or need greater career certainty, I think you should pursue your primary passion for evo psych and see where it leads you. If your passion changes or you find that not enough doors are open in the future, you can always do some focused clinical psych research to prep yourself for a clinical psych PhD, with the primary cost of ‘lost’ time.

And any research you gain in evo psych is better than no research but relevant research (even in lower quantities or with less depth) might trump tangential research from the perspective of the average clinical psych PI. Good luck!

Hi summerbabe, thank you for your response, and thank you for your empathy towards my having a passion. I agree with your order of least to most risky/easy careers, and I appreciate you relating your love of philosophy to me. I suspect that a clinical route is ultimately best for me, like you-- though I think I am looking to remain as in touch with evo psych as I possibly can.

Next month I'll be presenting a paper at a smaller evolutionary psychology conference and I've been cold emailing a few of the people in the field evolutionary clinical psychology to get their takes too. I am very much in a information-collecting stage, and insight like yours are invaluable along that process. Thank you for your time and attention to my post

 

[summerbabe]

I suspect that a clinical route is ultimately best for me, like you-- though I think I am looking to remain as in touch with evo psych as I possibly can.

One more consideration: if academic evo psych is gonna happen for you, you'll likely need to strike while the iron is hot. Network as much as you can at that conference and see what's out there. And if you try and find that the realities of the field aren't ideal, then you can at least make other plans knowing that you gave it your best.

While it's not uncommon to see people in their 30s and 40s enter clinical psych PhD programs, the traditional path into academia often involves going straight through from undergrad, whether it be a postbac, RA gig, grad program, or something else similar.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Hi Everyone,

So up until now, I have been en route to becoming a clinical psychologist. Simultaneously, I've been very interested in the modern evolutionary psychology movement (Steven Pinker, Geoffrey Miller, Richard Dawkins) I would say that evo psych is my ultimate passion, and clinical psychology would be a professional way to apply that interest without the uncertainty of academia, I also believe I would do well as a clinical psychologist, and the same has been reflected back to me.

My question is, if I were to get research post-bac from a lab that is focused on evolutionary psychology instead of clinical psychology, would I be screwed? I think it's a risk, but I feel that it could help me further myself into this niche I like so much. Though it would not be gaining experience from a lab focused in clinical science.

For context, I am coming out of undergrad with my name on a paper that is being reviewed for publication in a behavioral neuroscience lab that deals with an animal model. Because it's an animal model, I've been able to link it fairly easily to the idea of evolutionarily informed clinical science (i.e. because the lab related human stress mechanisms to an animal model, we could also see suffering as adaptive since it's present across species, etc).

Thoughts/opinions?

Thank you so much!

Here's something to consider: Is there any way (on your own, if you find this research post-bac focused on evolutionary psych) to bridge the gap between Evol Psych and developmental psychology, genetics, and/or child psych? You'll find intergenerational patterns interesting and link your existing interests to something more relevant to clinical psych (and research/papers/posters in those areas will def help an application to clinical psych programs).

I've shared here before that I was involved in genetic counseling research in oncological sciences (breast and prostate cancer), and learning about the effects of gene alterations in both the Ashkenazi Jewish and African descent communities was impactful to me. With this, I also began to learn of the intergenerational effects of trauma and the scope of what is known and unknown (psychologically, physiologically, genetically). All great experience & insight, and the clinical experience (so working with individuals from said communities ) was invaluable just prior to entering my doctoral program.

 

[gohogwild]

One more consideration: if academic evo psych is gonna happen for you, you'll likely need to strike while the iron is hot. Network as much as you can at that conference and see what's out there. And if you try and find that the realities of the field aren't ideal, then you can at least make other plans knowing that you gave it your best.

While it's not uncommon to see people in their 30s and 40s enter clinical psych PhD programs, the traditional path into academia often involves going straight through from undergrad, whether it be a postbac, RA gig, grad program, or something else similar.

That's a great idea! While I don't intend on giving the evo psy idea a decade if it doesn't work out, I do want to give it a shot. Thank you for your advice!

 

[gohogwild]

Here's something to consider: Is there any way (on your own, if you find this research post-bac focused on evolutionary psych) to bridge the gap between Evol Psych and developmental psychology, genetics, and/or child psych? You'll find intergenerational patterns interesting and link your existing interests to something more relevant to clinical psych (and research/papers/posters in those areas will def help an application to clinical psych programs).

I've shared here before that I was involved in genetic counseling research in oncological sciences (breast and prostate cancer), and learning about the effects of gene alterations in both the Ashkenazi Jewish and African descent communities was impactful to me. With this, I also began to learn of the intergenerational effects of trauma and the scope of what is known and unknown (psychologically, physiologically, genetically). All great experience & insight, and the clinical experience (so working with individuals from said communities ) was invaluable just prior to entering my doctoral program.

That's a very interesting pathway that I hadn't heard of before. It sounds like you were involved in some cool research, what an opportunity & interesting population! There's already a small field dedicated to the bridging of evo psych & clinical psych, but it sounds like there's many different forms that, that could take with the different jobs out there. Don't know what I don't know. Thank you!

 

[CheetahGirl]

That's a very interesting pathway that I hadn't heard of before. It sounds like you were involved in some cool research, what an opportunity & interesting population! There's already a small field dedicated to the bridging of evo psych & clinical psych, but it sounds like there's many different forms that, that could take with the different jobs out there. Don't know what I don't know. Thank you!

It was totally interesting.

And I may add, I have much respect for Angelina Jolie because she publicly shared that she was positive for the BRCA 1/2 gene alteration and decide for the prophylactic bilateral mastectomy and oophorectomy (i.e., optional major surgery) to increase her longer-term survival rate. A public health service announcement that provided more education and insight to those with histories of cancer in their biological families. #TeamJolie

This is a great example of benchside (hardcore lab work) to bedside research (clinical work)!

 

[cara susanna]

From my experience, a lot of clinical psychologists don't like evo psych. Although I would hope that being involved in ev psych research wouldn't make you less competitive for programs or jobs, that might be another consideration to take.

 

[gohogwild]

It was totally interesting.

And I may add, I have much respect for Angelina Jolie because she publicly shared that she was positive for the BRCA 1/2 gene alteration and decide for the prophylactic bilateral mastectomy and oophorectomy (i.e., optional major surgery) to increase her longer-term survival rate. A public health service announcement that provided more education and insight to those with histories of cancer in their biological families. #TeamJolie

This is a great example of benchside (hardcore lab work) to bedside research (clinical work)!

That is very interesting! Were people not TeamJolie? I feel like that'd be an odd thing to be against. Thanks for sharing!

 

[gohogwild]

From my experience, a lot of clinical psychologists don't like evo psych. Although I would hope that being involved in ev psych research wouldn't make you less competitive for programs or jobs, that might be another consideration to take.

I agree, that has been my experience too, but it's also been my experience that those who do not like it have not read it. Thanks for your response!

 

[WisNeuro]

I agree, that has been my experience too, but it's also been my experience that those who do not like it have not read it. Thanks for your response!

Well, it's nearly impossible to have read it as a whole. This is a huge area, with many subfields, just like other general psych areas. I do, think, however, that modern evo psych is unfortunately linked to certain very vocal and somewhat controversial individuals, which makes things tough. Also, I haven't seen much headway in the field as a whole to move beyond theoretical philosophizing and towards testable hypotheses. And, unfortunately the answer to criticism by those in the field generally takes the form of "you just don't understand the complexity..."

 

[gohogwild]

Well, it's nearly impossible to have read it as a whole. This is a huge area, with many subfields, just like other general psych areas. I do, think, however, that modern evo psych is unfortunately linked to certain very vocal and somewhat controversial individuals, which makes things tough. Also, I haven't seen much headway in the field as a whole to move beyond theoretical philosophizing and towards testable hypotheses. And, unfortunately the answer to criticism by those in the field generally takes the form of "you just don't understand the complexity..."

I didn't mean for the 'read it' to mean the whole field, I certainly have not, though I have read some. Yes, I think there's definitely people out there like Gaad Saad who like to do the Joe Rogan circuit and use the field as a way to "pwn feminists". Though, when you get to people like Steven Pinker, Trivers, Dawkins, Charles Darwin, I think you're looking at a group of deeply progressive people who care a lot about the intersection of science and psychology by looking why our minds had to be the way that they are, as opposed to them being the way they are as a divine chance among many. I think you're right about the fields problems surrounding testable hypothesis, it's hard to control for millennia of evolution. Though for some of it, people like Mark Leary have been able to produce some interesting studies about social dynamics, the need to belong, and the evolution of the self- which has been reproducable. There's also different methods through different fields like behavioral genetics (twin studies, etc) and behavioral neuroscience. I'm very happy to recognize the complexity of this stuff, stereotype threat there may be, sorry!

 

[ccool]

I didn't mean for the 'read it' to mean the whole field, I certainly have not, though I have read some. Yes, I think there's definitely people out there like Gaad Saad who like to do the Joe Rogan circuit and use the field as a way to "pwn feminists". Though, when you get to people like Steven Pinker, Trivers, Dawkins, Charles Darwin, I think you're looking at a group of deeply progressive people who care a lot about the intersection of science and psychology by looking why our minds had to be the way that they are, as opposed to them being the way they are as a divine chance among many. I think you're right about the fields problems surrounding testable hypothesis, it's hard to control for millennia of evolution. Though for some of it, people like Mark Leary have been able to produce some interesting studies about social dynamics, the need to belong, and the evolution of the self- which has been reproducable. There's also different methods through different fields like behavioral genetics (twin studies, etc) and behavioral neuroscience. I'm very happy to recognize the complexity of this stuff, stereotype threat there may be, sorry!

Hi Internet friend. I apologize for the very basic question. What is the point of evolutionary psychology? i mean, how does viewing things through that lens (vs not) inform intervention, change?

 

[CheetahGirl]

Were people not TeamJolie?

I'm aging myself. Hollywood Tabloid drama....Brad Pitt left Jennifer Aniston for Angelina Jolie...and then, had a baby.

There were #TeamAniston & #TeamJolie....I've been TeamJolie just bc...