Explain this to me...

[TeinII]

aiite i know i'm gonna get flamed for this but whatever.

according to a list provided by one of the SDNers (can't remember who at the moment), the matriculants to the Howard University COM (which you may know is predominantly African-American) have an average gpa of 3.14 and combined MCAT of 23.6. now that is significantly lower than the average gpa and MCAT of other medical school matriculants.

now i ABSOLUTELY agree that there should be more African-Americans and other URMs in the medical community as a whole, but is there a fine line between the need to increase the number of URMs in medical schools and the need to ensure that only the most capable individuals matriculate to medical schools, since they are the ones who will be responsible for other people's LIVES. i don't know. personally, i don't know what to think of the stats. maybe the mcat is biased against URMs.

now lastly a very stupid, hypothetical question: if you were in need of a surgical procedure, and you had a choice between a surgeon who graduated with a 3.1 gpa and 23 mcat and one with a 3.9 and 43+, which one would you choose, considering you knew nothing else but those stats?

lata...don't hate

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[CyclinE]

remember that howard & morehouse are traditionally schools for african-americans.

 

[SMW]

Originally posted by TeinII

now lastly a very stupid, hypothetical question

You said it!! No one ever chooses a surgeon in the real world based on GPA and MCAT score. So why even discuss it? Lots of people are better at doing than at taking tests. I would want to know how experienced the surgeon was and his/her success and complication rates. In fact I just had surgery and never once did it occur to me to inquire about GPA/MCAT.

 

[OneStrongBro]

Actually, it wouldn't matter who you chose to perform the surgery. Low UGPA or High UGPA or HIGH MCAT or LOW MCAT.

Here is the rationale.

A surgical residency is one of the most SELECTIVE residencies. Thus, if a person is a surgeon he is among the top 20 percent if not top 10 percent of his medical school class, and scored in the top quarter of the National Board Exam.

As for his undergraduate GPA or MCAT, that is moot because a person should be measured by his medical school academics. Residency programs look at medical school academics and Board Scores.

Since he is a surgeon he is capable academically. Besides, even if he went to Meharry, Harvard, or Howard. EVERYONE TAKES the SAME board exam. Thus, if he is a practicing surgeon he has the academic credentials.

With that said, for surgeons the take home criteria should be number of procedures. If a person is a cardiacthoracic surgeon, I would ask how many procedures he has performed and for how long. Or if you are truly concerned another physician can find information about a physician's record for you.

 

[walrus]

So do Howard or Morehouse accept any white students? If so , what % of the class do they comprise?

 

[Polar girl]

I don't think many apply, but they do accept whites. I'm not sure about the numbers, though.

 

[owen_osh]

Well I tried to check the usnews site to find the numbers of white students at these schools...but neither Howard, Meharry, nor Morehouse supplied any statistics to usnews. Do they have something to hide? Maybe they just don't agree with rankings.

 

[CyclinE]

Originally posted by OneStrongBro

A surgical residency is one of the most SELECTIVE residencies. Thus, if a person is a surgeon he is among the top 20 percent if not top 10 percent of his medical school class, and scored in the top quarter of the National Board Exam.

Granted, this may have been true in the 1970's.


If you are referring to General Surgery, this is one of the less competitive residencies, next to fam. pract. & pc internal medicine. (currently). Chances are, a resident in this field will not be in the top 20%, boards, grades, or otherwise.

Now, I think general surgery is a very demanding residency, and I profound respect for the myriad skills these people have. I just wanted to clarify this myth.

Even cardiac surgery has had tons of unfilled spots recently. No one wants to put in the time. Neurosurgery is still pretty competitive though, because of a high $$$ ceiling.

 

[ocean11]

Hi I'm white and I'm totally applying to Howard, stats are that its 70% African-American and thus 30% arn't and if many whites don't apply... then I think I have an o.k chance... my stats are way higher than the ave anywayzzzzz but yeah.... I don't know why their stats are so low, I know plenty of African-Americans that are getting 3.8 and above,

 

[Fenrezz]

It doesn't matter what a person's stats are going in. Med school is a filtering process. Once you're in you have to pass the classes. If you can't, at some point, you'll have to leave. Then you have to pass the boards, both second and fourth years. If you can't, you won't graduate. This is the same thing every other medical student has to do, whether they got accepted with a 3.0 or a 4.0.

So if the 3.0 GPA, 23 MCAT student at Howard is able to pass all his/her classes, pass the boards, and secure a residency, they've done everything they needed to do in order to graduate and be responsible for people's lives.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

No, it means they passed the absolute minimum standards. Any reasonably bright person can do it if they put effort into it.

Do you think a person who earned a 4.0 GPA BS is equivalent to a person who earned a 2.5 GPA BS? Do you think MDs are any different?

We, as a nation, should not strive for the absolute minimum. It is rather sad that we have to come to this point.

 

[CD]

Just a thought, I chose my primary care physician based on how seriously he took me and my comments. I know there are other physicians who probably had higher stats than he, BUT he LISTENS unlike any other doctor I have EVER had. In fact when I present MY reasons for wanting certain tests etc. he usually says "that sounds reasonable" unlike another doctor who NEVER listened to me. The best part? When He doesn't know the answer (which has happened more than once) he says, "I don't know, but I'll find out"......and you know what? HE ALWAYS HAS FOUND OUT, and not only that, he has looked for the BEST answer, not just the only one he happens to remember from med school. I'd rather go to someone who looks for the best answer and doesn't rely on his memory to cure my ailments.

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
No, it means they passed the absolute minimum standards. Any reasonably bright person can do it if they put effort into it.

Do you think a person who earned a 4.0 GPA BS is equivalent to a person who earned a 2.5 GPA BS? Do you think MDs are any different?

We, as a nation, should not strive for the absolute minimum. It is rather sad that we have to come to this point.

What do you call a person who graduates at the absolute bottom of his med school class?

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by CD
Just a thought, I chose my primary care physician based on how seriously he took me and my comments. I know there are other physicians who probably had higher stats than he, BUT he LISTENS unlike any other doctor I have EVER had. In fact when I present MY reasons for wanting certain tests etc. he usually says "that sounds reasonable" unlike another doctor who NEVER listened to me. The best part? When He doesn't know the answer (which has happened more than once) he says, "I don't know, but I'll find out"......and you know what? HE ALWAYS HAS FOUND OUT, and not only that, he has looked for the BEST answer, not just the only one he happens to remember from med school. I'd rather go to someone who looks for the best answer and doesn't rely on his memory to cure my ailments.

Yeah, I'd rather have a caring doctor with lesser stats, than an a!!hole doctor with better ones. Test scores and GPAs have little bearing on how effective a doctor you will actually be...

-RA

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Yes, just keep on telling yourself that.

Achievement and merit are being replaced by anything that makes us feel good. I wonder how long the US can stay as the world's most advanced and powerful nation with our attitudes about merit.

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
Yes, just keep on telling yourself that.

Achievement and merit are being replaced by anything that makes us feel good. I wonder how long the US can stay as the world's most advanced and powerful nation with our attitudes about merit.

The only merits aren't good test scores and a good GPA. And you're sadly mistaken if you think so. Sitting in the library all day while being an antisocial loser hardly counts as achievement. Doctors who don't know how to deal with people are virtually worthless except as researchers, perhaps (as long as they don't have to deal with subjects...). The one exception might be surgery. You don't have actually have to deal with people for that.

-RA

 

[futuremd45]

What i find funny is that if all the white students complaining had their so-called meritocracy established then the only doctors coming out of med schools would be Indian or Asian. If that were to happen I am sure that most white students would start the bitching once again.

It is humorous for me, an Indian, to hear the complaints against affirmative action since the lack of a meritocracy in admissions adversely effects asians, indians and jews (ie. non-caucasians) the most.

Funny how we never complain???

 

[Fenrezz]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
No, it means they passed the absolute minimum standards. Any reasonably bright person can do it if they put effort into it.

Do you think a person who earned a 4.0 GPA BS is equivalent to a person who earned a 2.5 GPA BS? Do you think MDs are any different?

We, as a nation, should not strive for the absolute minimum. It is rather sad that we have to come to this point.

So let me get this straight. A person who gets better grades taking organic chemistry, botany, undergrad anatomy, physics etc before they ever went to medical school, will make a better doctor? So much for people skills. According to you personality means nothing, it's all about intelligence. Might as well have machines treat patients.

And what bare minimum standards are you talking about? The government has set guidelines for which an individual must pass before they can be granted a medical degree. Those standards have nothing to do with undergrad GPA. There are great doctors and crappy doctors who got straight C's in medical school. There are great doctors and crappy doctors who got straigh A's.

Making a generalized statement about how good of a doctor one will become simply by looking at their undergrad GPA is just silly.

 

[OneStrongBro]

Let me get this straight. Neurosurgery is competitive and General surgery is not?

Last time I checked, general surgery residency is required to enter a neurosurgery residency.

Let's get our facts straight.

I agree family practice and psychiatry might be deemed the easiest residency to fill, however lumping surgical residencies in here is ludicrous.

Let's not make outrageous statements based on JUST the number of unfilled residencies. That is not the criteria for what one considers a competitive residency. That's like saying Harvard receives less applications than St. Louis everyyear, thus St.Louis is considered more competitive.

Did it ever occur to you that people don't apply to a surgical residency because they know they would be wasting their time.

 

[Veilside]

Originally posted by Fenrezz
So let me get this straight. A person who gets better grades taking organic chemistry, botany, undergrad anatomy, physics etc before they ever went to medical school, will make a better doctor? So much for people skills. According to you personality means nothing, it's all about intelligence. Might as well have machines treat patients.

And what bare minimum standards are you talking about? The government has set guidelines for which an individual must pass before they can be granted a medical degree. Those standards have nothing to do with undergrad GPA. There are great doctors and crappy doctors who got straight C's in medical school. There are great doctors and crappy doctors who got straigh A's.

Making a generalized statement about how good of a doctor one will become simply by looking at their undergrad GPA is just silly.

I don't think Ryo is saying that gpa and MCAT are the ONLY elements to becoming a good doctor, but they are reasonably good guidlines for medical schools in choosing who will be successful in medical school and go on to become capable doctors. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. But one question though: why is there such disparity in the matriculant stats of Howard, which I believe has the highest proportion of African Americans (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and the average stats of other medical school matriculants?

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki

"Do you think a person who earned a 4.0 GPA BS is equivalent to a person who earned a 2.5 GPA BS? Do you think MDs are any different?"


Actually, Ryo-Ohki is saying that GPA/MCAT are the ONLY important factors in becoming a good doctor. I don't recall seeing him/her mention anything else.

Question to Ryo-Ohki, if you had an emergency situation while visiting DC (you're dying), and you somehow ended up at the ER at Howard, would you refuse treatment?

And for the record, Howard is on my list of schools to apply to next year. But, so is Harvard.

 

[ocean11]

I also think grades arn't wholly reflective of someone's intelligence and capabilities... truth is alot (but not all) of African-American's arn't as 'privelaged' as others and have to work during the school year or deal with other issues.... this affects their GPA and MCAT scores.... once you're in meds... true you have to pass your classes and most importantly your boards, and once you get out there.... practical experience can make up for alot!

yeah I'm also applying to Howard (as a white person ) and 30 other schools.....

 

[Spidey]

Originally posted by futuremd45
Funny how we never complain???

Didn't you, just now, complain? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[silvercholla]

I had a conversation with my mother and all I have to say is..........
Boo *bleeping*Hoo!!! Bottom line, put your nose to the grind stone, get the best grades you can, serve your community full heartedly, have a life, then apply to medical school. Once you get granted an interview, impress the pants off of the interviewer and get in and then slowly realize that all of the AA discussions and the life is not fair threads never meant anything really because you are becoming a doctor. Get through those four years, get a residency and graduate. You are a doctor, you now hold someone else's life in your hands. You have to make decisions that could devastate or uplift someone for the rest of their lives, what you say and what you do become paramount to murder or giving life. All of a sudden Affirmative Action and below average GPA's mean squat. All of a sudden your mom or dad annoying you about when are you going to get in when are you going to grow up seems silly. All of a sudden the "I'm a better student than you are," whining just doesn't seem to matter. You're a doctor. Look everyone has a valid point in one respect or another but everyone here is facing the same general what ifs. Yeah sometimes it's going to seem unfair but by it's very nature this whole process, from begining to end is unfair. Deal with it, it's your first step to becoming a doctor.

 

[futuremd45]

Actually, I was not complaining about affirmative action. If anything, i was complaining about how white people in america have all the benefits and yet still bitch. Take your average indian, whose parents struggled to come over to this great country, worked their asses off, then their children work their asses off in school and finally, are much greater "victims" of affirmative action than whites, BUT never complain about affirmative action. Only whites complain about it... my opinion, to my bitching white siblings:

Shut up or step up!

 

[Noeljan]

Excuse me but....
I think that is VERY rude to say whites basically have no struggles or have it easier than anyone else. Excuse me but I have quite a few Indian friends who have money and both parents are physicians... Last time I checked with myself, my mother dropped out of high school and had me at 17! I love her obviously but you have no idea what you are talking about. Some of us "white people" also come from generations of immigrants who had nothing, and placed no value about higher education to their children at all. You are just being very rude.

 

[Tweetie_bird]

okay guys,
I know a lot of you feel strongly about this issue, but please be careful to not get carried away. No rude comments about others, and no cursing....I can tell some of you are just on the verge of doing it. I don't want to see a flame war.

Thank you!

Tweetie

 

[futuremd45]

NoelJam,

You dont seem very intelligent since you can not seem to understand that I am talking not about your particular case but in general. It is an absolute fact, that whites are the most privileged group in america. Yes indians are very successful in america but they had to work twice as hard as anyone else to first come here and then excel in a prejudiced society. Your indian friends with physician parents worked much harder just to practice in america and are always confronted with biases against minorities. Just bc/ in your particular case, your ancestors did not take advantage of all the ease that is afforded to them by the fact that they are white do not think that is true for all whites in america. So please stop your complaining and accept the fact that life is NOT FAIR.

It is not fair that URMs do not have the same schooling opportunities that whites do, it is not fair that Indians have to overcome prejudice to succeed in America (ie, watch Simpsons to see a socially accepted prejudice against Indians), and it is not fair that there are concessions for URMs in medical school applications.

Damn you people are so spoiled and ignorant.

 

[Veilside]

Statistically speaking (i.e. # of applicants from one particular ethnic group and the number of spots generally available for that group), Asians and Indians have it the worst. But that still shouldn't warrant you to speak negatively of whites generally and call them ignorant and whatnot. Bottom line is that medical school is tough to get in, regardless of who you are or where you're from. Just try your best, and don't worry about what other people're doing.

Just my humble .02

 

[Noeljan]

First of all
You are the one who is NOT very smart. I am not the one putting down anyone, YOU are... And how the hell do YOU know who has had to work harder than someone else?? You are the ignorant one my friend. You don't think Italian Americans faced discrimination and worked for pennies?? You don't think that Russians who had to overcome communism and left Russia with NOTHING, didn't have it hard making it in the US?? Oh no wait, they are white so they were magically handed mansions and money when they walked onto this land. YOU MY FRIEND NEED A HISTORY LESSON AND A LESSON IN LIFE. I hope you NEVER become a doctor. What every white person who walks into your office will be a certain thing, and every Indian, and every black?? You my friend have no business being in a what is supposed to be non judgemental position(based on where people come from).

 

[Noeljan]

Oh and another thing,
YOU Are the one complaining that life is not fair.... Sorry, but I only pointed out a factual example from myself which negates your ridiculous findings.
Oh and another thing, you have no right to put down my family. Oh but wait I forgot, and any white person reading this, according to futuremd45 you had better be rich or else your family is ignorant and not taking the handouts us whites all get.

 

[silvercholla]

Take it down a notch people....

 

[ocean11]

Noeljan I agree.... not all white people are 'wealthy' you know what.... just turn the TV on and check out all the 'poor, uneducated white trash' on Jerry Springer.... I have many white friends from Poland, Yugoslavia and other countries in eastern Europe who are dirt poor, struggling to make it, have to work in coffee shops to pay for their tuition.... parents can't help out....

You so can't generalize about whites, blacks or Indians....

I have Indian, Asian and Black and White friends who are VERY wealthy, but I also know many who are not....

We have to stop generalizing people! NO one wants to be catagorized as a 'race'

futuremd45, I see were you're comming from but then what's gonna stop ya from saying "Most Asians are smart?" or "Most Blacks are impovrished" "Jews have all the money" ETC.....

It's not right man.... statistically sure 'white's may appear to have more $$$ but so many don't, I know so many poor white folk.... please don't generalize

 

[Noeljan]

Ocean11,
very well put. You said exactly what I wanted to but in calmer terms

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Noeljan

"And how the hell do YOU know who has had to work harder than someone else??"

Very funny, I didn't read futuremd45's message to say that "ALL whites ect.ect". While I think it was a bit harsh, I also find it truthful in the sense that I've NEVER heard any other group complain about afirmative action, no asians, no indians and I've got close personal friends of every creed and color.

As for the question quoted above, history should be a good indication.

I think it's good to have these debates, albeit without the explicatives!! I also think that everyone on this thread (except Ryo-Ohki) would probably make great doctors. This group is obiviously open-minded enough to recognize that MCAT's and GPA's aside, most people that finish medical school will contribute positively to medicine.

To Noeljan, good for you for sticking with you're dream of becoming a doctor!! I personally think it's harder to overcome financial barriers than racial ones. But if I had to deal with both....Yikes!!!

 

[Noeljan]

I'm sorry to futuremd for being upset, and I should not have said I hope you will never become a doctor. I don't personally know you and you may be a great person, you just need to not make such great assumptions. I do not agree with what you said though, and I think it was rude... but, that does not give me the right to say you should not be a doctor. Sorry

 

[Veilside]

awwww....now that's a kodak moment

seriously though, noeljan and futuremd, who knows maybe you two will end up in the same med school. good luck guys

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

Originally posted by OneStrongBro
Let me get this straight. Neurosurgery is competitive and General surgery is not?

Last time I checked, general surgery residency is required to enter a neurosurgery residency.

Sorry man, but you really showed your ignorance here. Neurosurgery is a completely separate match than general surgery. Some programs require a one year of preliminary surgery (which is veeeerrry easy to match into) prior to neurosurg but many are combined. The same goes for other competitive surgical subspecialties such as ENT, optho, and urology. Completely separate match. The specialties where you do g surg first are cardiothoracic, transplant, vascular, colorectal, some plastics, and a few other super subspecialized ones.

I do agree with you that getting a G Surg residency is harder than family practice or internal medicine, but is definitely not as competitive as you seem to think.

 

[doepug]

Originally posted by OneStrongBro
Let me get this straight. Neurosurgery is competitive and General surgery is not?

Last time I checked, general surgery residency is required to enter a neurosurgery residency.

Let's get our facts straight.

Just for the record, neurosurgeons have their own residency, which is independent from general surgical residencies.

Historically, competition for neurosurgical spots has been keen, due to the limited (~150) number of places open nationwide each year. While it is undoubtedly competitive to land a spot at a top general surgery program, it is not difficult to find a surgical residency elsewhere. After all, >25% of general surgery positions nationwide were unfilled after the match last year, making them open to the post-match scramble. In my opinion, this reflects poorly on the future of general surgery.

I know there are all kinds of heated issues flying around with other posts -- try to realize that everyone brings valid points to the table, and respect one another.

Cheers,
doepug

 

[pathdr2b]

"Med Schools are like women, if one turns you down there is ALWAYS another one available."

To OneStrongBro:

Maybe what you MEANT to say was that "med schools are like women, I'll never get IN!"

Sorry, I couldn't resist and I apologize for my digression

 

[saiyagirl]

pathdr2b, as much as i thought your joke was distasteful, i couldn't help but smile.
anyway...

futuremd, yo i hear you, but i think you're taking it a bit far. true us south asians and our parents had to struggle hard to get here. my parents arrived here in the dead of winter from madras, with my mom speaking not a word of english and 7 months pregnant. she was 18. my father had about $5. most of us indian-americans have stories like this about our parents.

however, you have to admit that in general we have it better than a lot of other people. true we may have had to work harder or encounter more prejudice than our white counterparts in the same economic class. but after our years of work a lot of indian-americans are doing very well economically, our race constitutes some of the most affluent people in america. so so many people in america have it a lot harder than most indian-americans, many whites included.

and noeljan, yes it is true that there are a lot of white people who struggle everyday, and that most white people in america also came from immigrant/humble backgrounds, if not in their lifetime then a few generations ago. however it is also true that in general, the poor white man or woman will probably have an easier time getting access to food/health/education/jobs than their poor black or asian counterpart, and i think this is the point that futuremd was aiming at.

also, i think the reason why ppl note that "indians" and "asians" are not as quick as whites to "complain" about AA is that indians and asians--in general--are much less politically active in this country than their white (or black) counterparts. maybe because there are less of us, but i really think it's also that many indians and asians still feel intimidated by the majority as (again, in general) we are passive people by nature. i also think it might be a fear of losing focus on earning money and providing for the family, and therefore a fear of losing success. it's like, after getting established here, indians/asians tend to retreat quietly to the suburbs and do everything ensure the continuity of their success. this includes pushing kids to to pursue fields like medicine and engineering. for prestige, money, and most importantly--job stability. everyone knows what life was like in the motherland and so parents want to avoid that for their children.

i think though as the first few generations of south asian/americans grow older our political voice will be a bit louder as we would feel more confident around other americans than our parents did, and we'd be further removed from the hardship of our parents and the urgency to avoid risk at all costs.

 

[mvervaine]

just want to add, though the thread has completely gone off in a diff direction, that grades--in addition to being a predictor of med school performance--are also there to tell a little about you.

a person with 4.0 for 4 years is obviously brilliant, but in my mind a person with a 2.0, 4.0, 4.0, 4.0 (cum 3.5) is just as brilliant. and, having seen that, i'd want to find out what exactly went on in his/her life to inspire that transformation. in many cases people with low gpa are either 1) working full time, 2) didn't decide to become a doctor until sometime during their collegiate or post-collegiate careers, 3) have illnesses, 4) working towards 2 degrees 5) have kids...so on and so forth. there are simply too many 'exceptions' for us to apply with a clear conscience any type of generalization--especially the one that says high gpa = good doctor, low gpa = stupid brute who doesn't belong in med school.

as for mcats...hell, weirder things have happened. the day before i took mine, i was so nervous i didn't sleep at all and ended up falling asleep in the BS (no pun intended) section. (i still finished, but barely, if anyone cares) obviously what happened to me is too rare for this to be a justification, but it is meant to alert you to the idea that not everyone with a low mcat score is stupid/ill-prepared/unqualified for med school.

we are humans, not machines with fixed ratings. our profiles/numbers/qualities will change as we do; our gpa/mcat scores are just a snapshot of 4 years of our lives (when most of us are still young and fallible). i'm not denying that these numbers have a bearing on whether or not we go to medical school (and where we go if we do), but they should not have a bearing on whether or not we have the potential to make good doctors.

damn. that was long.

 

[Spidey]

Originally posted by futuremd45
Actually, I was not complaining about affirmative action. If anything, i was complaining about how white people in america have all the benefits and yet still bitch. Take your average indian, whose parents struggled to come over to this great country, worked their asses off, then their children work their asses off in school and finally, are much greater "victims" of affirmative action than whites, BUT never complain about affirmative action. Only whites complain about it... my opinion, to my bitching white siblings:

Shut up or step up!

You know I kind of hate it when people from another country come to america and then all they can do is bitch about how awful it is and unfair... Go back to India if you are being treated so awful here... So you are a "much greater victim" (btw that right there is bitching, which you say you don't do). You're a victim because what? You're a victim of america because they gave you the alternative to come to their country, get jobs and through hard work make something of yourself as opposed to staying in your own country where there was almost no future? In america anyone can make something of themselves if they have the intelligence and perseverence to do so. That is a great thing, and it is not the case in many places in the world.

Are people in America prejudiced? Sure, some are. I like to think most are not, and that it gets better every day, but there is racism and prejudism every where you go in this world. I wonder, if I went to live in India, how do you think I would be treated as a white man? I already know the answer to that, and that answer is not very frickin well.

As far as AA goes I have nothing to say really. I'm Canadian and as far as I know there is no AA at Canadian universities, it is merit based. So I wasn't bitching on this thread but your post kind of irked me, your claiming that you are above bitching and yet bitching about how your people suffer more than white people.

And so what if I was born to a wealthy family? Does that mean I should not speak out when I think something is unjust? Does it mean I have less right to speak my mind? Should I apologize because my parents worked hard to provide for their families? Well you know what, I won't apologize. My parents worked hard to get to where they are, and I will work hard and hopefully I will be successful in my life. And I will provide for my children and hopefully they will work hard and do the same. In Canada, and in the US, all a person needs is intelligence and the willingness to work hard and they can succeed. The fact that there are successful people of all races in these countries is evidence enough of that. I won't feel guilty about that and anyone that thinks I should can kiss my white as$.

 

[Spidey]

Originally posted by futuremd45
What i find funny is that if all the white students complaining had their so-called meritocracy established then the only doctors coming out of med schools would be Indian or Asian.

That's bull****. There are plenty of white people with a 4.0 gpa and extremely high mcats. You are clueless.

 

[ocean11]

well said spidey

another thing... about immigration or immigrants: ALL OF us are immigrants.... Canada/US are 'relatively' new countries.... and over the past 100 years.... either you, your parents or grandparents immigrated here.... thus I don't see the difference between an 'american' or an 'immigrant' they are more similar than one thinks!

 

[silvercholla]

Give me a break!!!!! I totally have to agree with Spidey!!! It never fails. People come to the US and they are like wow! look at this place ! Then 6 months later they are like wow look at this place ! Short memories are abundant! I was born here and I grew up with the privilage of being able to go to school free of charge, given the oppprtunity to say and do what I want when I want within the limits of the law (and sometimes without ) And I am proud of this country inspite of the short comings. Because there is no where in the world that allows you the freedom to bitch and moan as much as I have heard here today. BOOHOO!!! LIFE IS UNFAIR, I HAD TO COME TO A COUNTRY WITH OPPORTUNITIES AND WORK MY ASS OFF TO GET THEM! WHY ISN'T IT FREE! WHY ISN'T IT EASY! Look if you were in India (and be honest) would you have been able to get as far as you have come as youhave done here? People think hard before you speak!!! Learn before you pull down. Achieve before you receive. Life is not fair and nothing is ever handed to you... even if you are rich.

Oh and for the record, I'm not a poor rich little white girl... I'm a po' a$$ black girl from the hood in East Flatbush Brooklyn,NY USA... WHAT!

 

[saiyagirl]

ocean11,
i agree that we're all "immigrants" but i think it makes a big difference WHEN you immigrated and how far removed you are from your history of immigration. a person who immigrated here ten years ago would not be nearly as well integrated into american society as the person whose great-grandparents immigrated here seventy or eighty years ago.

also silvercholla--it doesn't really surprise me that immigrants change their minds about america. the best example i can give you is that of my parents who emigrated from india. they came here and were like, damn, the streets are so clean in america! my mother was like wow, no one will care if when the weather gets hot as hell i don't have to wear this huge sari and wear a skirt instead? yes!!

but then, a month later my parents were trying to get their own apt (they were lucky enough to stay with the only other indian family in town at the time for the interim). my father (who had always spoke english like a britoner) had called a few places and they all said, "yeah, come on over, we have places available". so he went to several landlords and every single one--as soon as they took one look at him said, "oh, no sorry, we have no apts for rent." just to be sure, he called them all the next day only to hear, "oh yeah, we have rooms to rent!" this same sort of things happened in several places. movie theatres ("sold out"), hotels ("no rooms available"), and my parents would usually later see some white couple buy a ticket or reserve a room. granted many things have improved since those times but this sort of discrimination is still a reality for many many new immigrants.

look, i agree that life is tough and nothing is fair, and that america offers more economic opprtunity and social equality than other countries in the world. and that a lot of people whine about their life when they really have better things to whine about. but i think immigrants while heartened by their economic potential as americans are also hurt by the prejudice and blatant ignorance of many americans. a lot of people are just downright rude especially when it comes to accents. "my, you have a strange accent," or "can't you speak english honey? i can't understand a word you're saying" when a simple "can you repeat that a bit slower please?" would suffice. i even had a friend who went to a job interview (she is muslim-american and wears the hijab) and was told--verbatim--"Look, while you are here we'd like you to remove your thing on your head. you know. we don't want to upset our clients." (this was BEFORE september 11th).

for a country that is the land of the free, many immigrants and children of immigrants do not feel so free. at least not as much as our patriotic rhetoric would have them believe.

so i guess while immigrants feel economically integrated, the reason for much of their discontent with america is that they do not feel socially accepted, much less integrated. yes they are making money and have the freedom to practice their religion, more than they would in the motherland. true. but its harder to gain social acceptance and many americans don't make this any easier. we'd all like to complacently believe that america abounds with tolerance and is a happy melting pot, but truly, the immigrant experience is far more complicated than that.

 

[Spidey]

Originally posted by silvercholla
Oh and for the record, I'm not a poor rich little white girl... I'm a po' a$$ black girl from the hood in East Flatbush Brooklyn,NY USA... WHAT!

Soon I will have the full address and my stalking can begin in earnest. Hey Silver you never answered me about whether or not your mom had a spare room for rent...

 

[relatively prime]

Originally posted by walrus
So do Howard or Morehouse accept any white students? If so , what % of the class do they comprise?

They actually accept a lot of white students... something like 40% are white I think. However, they will reject you if they think you're using them as a "safety" school (that's what I hear).

 

[Qafas]

Originally posted by TeinII
aiite i know i'm gonna get flamed for this but whatever.

according to a list provided by one of the SDNers (can't remember who at the moment), the matriculants to the Howard University COM (which you may know is predominantly African-American) have an average gpa of 3.14 and combined MCAT of 23.6. now that is significantly lower than the average gpa and MCAT of other medical school matriculants.

now i ABSOLUTELY agree that there should be more African-Americans and other URMs in the medical community as a whole, but is there a fine line between the need to increase the number of URMs in medical schools and the need to ensure that only the most capable individuals matriculate to medical schools, since they are the ones who will be responsible for other people's LIVES. i don't know. personally, i don't know what to think of the stats. maybe the mcat is biased against URMs.

now lastly a very stupid, hypothetical question: if you were in need of a surgical procedure, and you had a choice between a surgeon who graduated with a 3.1 gpa and 23 mcat and one with a 3.9 and 43+, which one would you choose, considering you knew nothing else but those stats?

lata...don't hate

Your argument might be valid on its face, but it has a flawed foundation; you are assuming that a person's entire life-experience can be boiled down to a set of numbers. I'm sure you can see that that just isn't fair. You are also assuming that a person with a better GPA and MCAT scores will definitely do better in medical school, and become a better physician than someone with scores that are lower. Granted, that a person with stellar numbers has shown that he/she is capable of handling the academic rigors of medical school. But the rigors of medicine itself are by no means limited to what we face in medical school. Therefore, there is only so much value that can be given to these scores.
When you look at someone's numbers and base his/her abilities to become a physician based solely on them, you are doing them injustice. Why do you think medical schools go through such an extensive process of having us fill out those long applications and then interviewing with them? Simply because they know that numbers don't tell the whole story. In my view, if you have the minimum numbers, then you are just as good as the next guy. Now, it makes a hell of a lot of difference why you got those low scores. If it was simply because you didn't want to put in any more effort, then you should (ideally) lose out to the competition. But, if there are compounding factors, and there often are, then it's a whole different game. What an applicant brings to the table, besides the numbers, is at least equally important.
Finally, please remember that the selection process is not perfect nor will it ever be. It is rather subjective, which is both good and bad. There is a balance somewhere, but I don't know where it is; I doubt anyone knows without a doubt. If you are committed enough, don't let failure drag you down.....do all you can to improve and apply again.

with regards