Facebook group for pre-med students of color

[Axes]

I told myself that I would unwatch this thread as soon as it began to devolve, but it might be important to note that AA in admissions is not the direct result of adcoms hoping to single-handedly solve the issues of racial inequality.

It's much simpler than that. There are a lot of minority patients. We do not have many doctors from URM backgrounds. We need more.

Do URM applicants get in with lower stats? Sure. Are they unqualified? Not at all. I would also be lying if I tried to deny that some URM applicants are disadvantaged/discriminated against because of their racial background, but this is something that I can see certain people blowing out of proportion or harping on even if it does not actually apply to them.

Yeah very true. I think it's both, since there's AA for things that aren't medical school.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Pusheen]

True. I, for example, have the choice of being a criminal, or going to college and medical school. Obviously not always, but often, these choices are more pre determined for URM PoC, in that they can be criminals, or live a life that goes nowhere. It's a resilient cycle of institutional neglect and resultant cultural apathy. The criminal system of gangs and prison grows as disadvantaged communities are shut off from other avenues to personal success. People with no options do bad things. It's coercion, not choice.

If you didn't get top percentile on psych/soc section of the MCAT, I'm disappointed

 

[Pusheen]

what a calvinist. .

best insult I've seen on SDN all day

 

[Axes]

you would have us believe it is circumstance that forces the hand holding the knife, pulls the finger on the trigger, and that free will hardly matters? what a calvinist. Of course you wouldnt pay attention to the family values or lack thereof in these communities.

There is no divine free will that will overcome a human's tendency to strive to climb Mazlow's hierarchy. As people are institutionally barred from educational or "civilized" methods of achieving these needs, they will look to other paths.

 

[Spector1]

There is no divine free will that will overcome a human's tendency to strive to climb Mazlow's hierarchy. As people are institutionally barred from educational or "civilized" methods of achieving these needs, they will look to other paths.

So you would have everyone sunk low together in the brown muds of ignorance and lack of knowledge rather than tolerate the notion that some people do achieve more than others, that certain institutions of higher education are worthier of merit, that individuals can rise above their peers by their words and deeds? And that this difference has nothing to do with race, creed, belief, ethnicity or heritage.

This reminds me of a quote from Ayn Rand's book "Anthem"

“The word "We" is as lime poured over men, which
sets and hardens to stone, and crushes all beneath it, and that which is
white and that which is black are lost equally in the grey of it. It is
the word by which the depraved steal the virtue of the good, by which
the weak steal the might of the strong, by which the fools steal the
wisdom of the sages."

 

[Axes]

So you would have everyone sunk low together in the brown muds of ignorance and lack of knowledge rather than tolerate the notion that some people do achieve more than others, that certain institutions of higher education are worthier of merit, that individuals can rise above their peers by their words and deeds? And that this difference has nothing to do with race, creed, belief, ethnicity or heritage.

This reminds me of a quote from Ayn Rand's book "Anthem"

“The word "We" is as lime poured over men, which
sets and hardens to stone, and crushes all beneath it, and that which is
white and that which is black are lost equally in the grey of it. It is
the word by which the depraved steal the virtue of the good, by which
the weak steal the might of the strong, by which the fools steal the
wisdom of the sages."

Of course it does. An objectivist world is not one in which I or any other compassionate person would want to live. And I know objectivism believes that the root of compassion is selfishness, but even if that is accurate, a world in which indulgence of that selfishness enables others to live more wholesome lives is a better world than one in which the sage abandons the fool etc. And honestly, objectivism is more Calvinist than anything, implying that people are pre determined into who they are by nature, whereas it has been shown that genetic differences are greatly magnified by nurture, especially in humans.

Racially, a quick shift to objectivism following 300+ years of "black people are property" is neither logical nor objective.

 

[Spector1]

View attachment 195334

clarence thomas did no wrong. he said she said on its own without proof is merely slander.

 

[Spector1]

Of course it does. An objectivist world is not one in which I or any other compassionate person would want to live. And I know objectivism believes that the root of compassion is selfishness, but even if that is accurate, a world in which indulgence of that selfishness enables others to live more wholesome lives is a better world than one in which the sage abandons the fool etc. And honestly, objectivism is more Calvinist than anything, implying that people are pre determined into who they are by nature, whereas it has been shown that genetic differences are greatly magnified by nurture, especially in humans.

Racially, a quick shift to objectivism following 300+ years of "black people are property" is neither logical nor objective.

and yet you would have us trade racism for racism. how fair and just.

 

[Axes]

and yet you would have us trade racism for racism. how fair and just.

You're confusing racism with somewhat of a lessening of absolute power predicated on the oppression of racial minorities.

 

[Spector1]

You're confusing racism with somewhat of a lessening of absolute power predicated on the oppression of racial minorities.

racism and reverse racism sound pretty similar to me. You're denying one group opportunities based on their ethnicity, creed, skin color, beliefs, religion, culture and background.

if it sounds like racism, it probably is racism. You demonstrate that more than anyone else. After all only racists consider race.

 

[Axes]

racism and reverse racism sound pretty similar to me. You're denying one group opportunities based on their ethnicity, creed, skin color, beliefs, religion, culture and background.

if it sounds like racism, it probably is racism. You demonstrate that more than anyone else. After all only racists consider race.

It's different because AA grants URM PoC opportunities that are denied to them by default institutional and cultural racism. And ok, so then MLK, Nelson Mandela, Rosa Parks, Yazidi fighters against ISIS, Kurdish fighters against Saddam and ISIS and on and on.. these people are racists, learn something new everyday. And yes I broadened racist to discriminatory.

 

[Spector1]

Its one thing to fight for liberty and equality, its another to demand entitlement and handouts.

It's different because AA grants URM PoC opportunities that are denied to them by default institutional and cultural racism. And ok, so then MLK, Nelson Mandela, Rosa Parks, Yazidi fighters against ISIS, Kurdish fighters against Saddam and ISIS and on and on.. these people are racists, learn something new everyday. And yes I broadened racist to discriminatory. People levied the same arguments as these against things that are now seen as objective good, such as Rosa Parks' bus and whatnot. White people didn't universally "like" MLK.

 

[Axes]

Its one thing to fight for liberty and equality, its another to fight for entitlement and handouts.

The fight is for equality. The government is disinclined to spend on schools and "urban" neighborhoods, so AA is a cheap way of gaining some level of equality. Or you can view it as reparations for one of the largest mass enslavements and the largest genocide of all time. Up to you.

 

[Spector1]

The fight is for equality. The government is disinclined to spend on schools and "urban" neighborhoods, so AA is a cheap way of gaining some level of equality. Or you can view it as reparations for one of the largest mass enslavements and the largest genocide of all time. Up to you.

demanding to be let into med school with inferior stats? sounds like entitlement to me. Unless you think that looks like equality to you.

 

[Axes]

demanding to be let into med school with inferior stats? sounds like entitlement to me. Unless you think that looks like equality to you.

Do you not see how 3 points off your mcat and .3 off your gpa partially compensates for a considerable lack of educational opportunities?

(and significant institutional and de facto disadvantage)

 

[Spector1]

Do you not see how 3 points off your mcat and .3 off your gpa partially compensates for a considerable lack of educational opportunities?

(and significant institutional and de facto disadvantage)

no, not really at all. Equality should exist as much in principle as it does in practice. you would have us toss out principle for political expediency.

 

[Axes]

no, not really at all.

The GPA and MCAT are not a measure of how well you can do physics and chem, but rather how hard you can work. With worse educational opportunity, one's potential vis a vis these metrics is lower even with equivalent work. Thus, if a person doesn't have the educational opportunity to achieve to the standard, then you can lower the standard a bit and they can still become doctors, because again, it doesn't matter if they got a C in physics.

URM PoC who become professionals will be able to live in areas and school districts that enable their kids to do even better than they did, and so on.

 

[Axes]

you would have us toss out principle for political expediency.

What principle? The only sectors of US business that are internationally competitive are heavily subsidized. Weapons manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies etc. Wall Street publicizes their losses every time they make a mistake. Right wing policy makers support oligopolies in exchange for PAC donations. This is not sticking to a principle, this is a fundamental lack of blanks to give about certain people in this country.

 

[Lawpy]

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

The GPA and MCAT are not a measure of how well you can do physics and chem, but rather how hard you can work. With worse educational opportunity, one's potential vis a vis these metrics is lower even with equivalent work. Thus, if a person doesn't have the educational opportunity to achieve to the standard, then you can lower the standard a bit and they can still become doctors, because again, it doesn't matter if they got a C in physics.

URM PoC who become professionals will be able to live in areas and school districts that enable their kids to do even better than they did, and so on.

Is race the best indicator of early educational opportunity? I would think socioeconomic level would be a better litmus test.

 

[sovereign0]

 

[Axes]

Is race the best indicator of early educational opportunity? I would think socioeconomic level would be a better litmus test.

Yeah this is a really good point. I'm not a stats guy, but there's a clear correlation between SAT/ACT and income. That said, I feel that there should be some compensation for the non educational/economic disadvantages faced by URM PoC in this country. I'm not sure where I stand on this issue.

 

[Spector1]

Yeah this is a really good point. I'm not a stats guy, but there's a clear correlation between SAT/ACT and income. That said, I feel that there should be some compensation for the non educational/economic disadvantages faced by URM PoC in this country. I'm not sure where I stand on this issue.

entitlement

 

[Axes]

entitlement

This is like you're at a restaurant with someone and your food comes, and 45 minutes later as you finish up your meal his food still hasn't come, and he starts to complain, and you're like "oh chill out, it must be coming soon."

 

[Nietzschelover]

clarence thomas did no wrong. he said she said on its own without proof is merely slander.

Clarence T would never be where he is if your pov was the prevailing wisdom. And since when is an extremely credible, and very reluctant, witness....actually a direct witness...termed slander?

 

[blackgirlmd]

This person doesn't want to understand. They just want to hold their privilege near and dear.

 

[Spector1]

This person doesn't want to understand. They just want to hold their privilege near and dear.

I'll have you know that I am a minority as well. And no, I really don't understand the merits of reverse discrimination. The case for it is flimsy at best, malevolent at worse.

 

[blackgirlmd]

This thread should be closing soon.

 

[blackgirlmd]

I'll have you know that I am a minority as well. And no, I really don't understand the merits of reverse discrimination. The case for it is flimsy at best, malevolent at worse.

First part of my statement still holds true.

 

[Nietzschelover]

I'll have you know that I am a minority as well.

Are you Clarence T, lol?

 

[blackgirlmd]

Adcoms are not letting in under qualified applicants obviously so stop complaining Jesus Christ

 

[Nietzschelover]

I'll have you know that I am a minority as well.

The classic last-ditch effort retort.

 

[iDOliveinMD]

This is a pretty fabulous reversal. The reality is that certain races are institutionally and culturally second class citizens in America, and affirmative action serves to counteract this inherent disadvantage. Do you see how it would be an issue to hold all URM candidates to a much higher standard than their often poor educational opportunities prepare them to achieve? And yes, AA could be done by income, but race plays into economic geography, and disadvantaged races in America face hardship that is not solely economic, such as being scared of the police, for example.

Lol I love 2015.

 

[Axes]

I'll have you know that I am a minority as well.

!! sorry sir, we have a table right here for you.

 

[Spector1]

The classic last-ditch effort retort.

Does that make my viewpoint any more or less meritorious?

 

[Axes]

Does that make my viewpoint any more or less meritorious?

Only if you're talking about the experience of your people.

 

[Lawpy]

Can I join? I poop rainbow colors

You may want to schedule an appointment with a gastroenterologist for that...

 

[Spector1]

Only if you're talking about the experience of your people.

excellent, I'll use my heritage and background to purchase chips on my shoulders so I can fit in.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Does that make my viewpoint any more or less meritorious?

YES. Way, way too late...and about as believable as Clarence T's denials.

 

[Axes]

excellent, I'll use my heritage and background to purchase chips on my shoulders so I can fit in.

It's 100% logical for commentary on the lived experience of a group of people to be given more serious consideration if it comes from a member of that group. Why is it so bad to have a chip on the shoulder, but fine to perpetuate the institutional disadvantage that creates the grievances that breed the chip on the shoulder?

 

[Spector1]

It's 100% logical for commentary on the lived experience of a group of people to be given more serious consideration if it comes from a member of that group. Why is it so bad to have a chip on the shoulder, but fine to perpetuate the institutional disadvantage that creates the grievances that breed the chip on the shoulder?

I'm sure adcoms want premedical candidates with chips on their shoulders. best of luck buddy.

 

[Axes]

I'm sure adcoms want premedical candidates with chips on their shoulders. best of luck buddy.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I just don't like racism.

 

[Spector1]

I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I just don't like racism.

neither do I. I am a friend of equality. I suppose we stand on the same side then.

 

[Noomm]

This is like you're at a restaurant with someone and your food comes, and 45 minutes later as you finish up your meal his food still hasn't come, and he starts to complain, and you're like "oh chill out, it must be coming soon."

What are you even saying dude?

 

[Nietzschelover]

Does that make my viewpoint any more or less meritorious?

Not only was it a classic example of a last-ditch effort, but ALSO a classic case of "playing the race card" manipulatively at the wrong time....and I'm sure that is something you take a very strong stance against.

 

[Axes]

What are you even saying dude?

That an empowered group will often rebrand (or conflate) an institutionally disadvantaged group's pursuit of equality as desire for entitlement, whereas the latter simply fights for the same institutional privilege afforded to the former. Similes are hard, I know.

 

[Axes]

neither do I. I am a friend of equality. I suppose we stand on the same side then.

equality =/= the status quo (and not because of AA)

 

[Noomm]

That an empowered group will often rebrand (or conflate) an institutionally disadvantaged group's pursuit of equality as desire for entitlement, whereas the latter simply fights for the same institutional privilege afforded to the former. Similes are hard, I know.

On what world does "same institutional privilege" = "lower standards for admission"? Sounds more like entitlement to me.

 

[Spector1]

Not only was it a classic example of a last-ditch effort, but ALSO a classic case of "playing the race card" manipulatively at the wrong time....and I'm sure that is something you take a very strong stance against.

I was only responding to other people beating me over the head with my own supposed "privilege"

equality =/= the status quo (and not because of AA)

And that's where you and I disagree. You would have politically expedient reverse discrimination to achieve your goals at the cost of the principles of equality themselves. I would have equality based on merits.

Men like MLK fought a war to protect a herd of sacred cows (the rights of equality, the notion that all men are created equal), each of which was slaughtered by men like you to advance your own agendas.

 

[Axes]

On what world does "same institutional privilege" = "lower standards for admission"? Sounds more like entitlement to me.

The lower standard compensates for institutional and cultural disadvantage in the form of often poor educational opportunities and de facto racism. You can read my previous posts if you want a somewhat more in depth perspective.