Failed out of MD, do I have a chance at getting admitted to lower tier DO?

psychMDhopefully

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I'm from Mississippi and went to Southern Miss in Hattiesburg. I was originally enrolled in a MD school but was dismissed for Failing Step 1 by one point. I've heard from people that have taken both Step 1 and COMLEX 1 that Step 1 is harder so I might have a chance at passing the COMLEX. I would have to take the MCAT again, but having completed the first 2 years of med school without failing any classes I know how to study and predict I would do better on the test than I did the first time (27). My SGPA was 3.3 my CGPA was 3.4, URM if that makes any difference. I honestly can't believe l am entertaining the thought of trying for med school again at age 32, But would William Carey even look at my app if I applied for the entering class of 2020?
 

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I'm from Mississippi and went to Southern Miss in Hattiesburg. I was originally enrolled in a MD school but was dismissed for Failing Step 1 by one point. I've heard from people that have taken both Step 1 and COMLEX 1 that Step 1 is harder so I might have a chance at passing the COMLEX. I would have to take the MCAT again, but having completed the first 2 years of med school without failing any classes I know how to study and predict I would do better on the test than I did the first time (27). My SGPA was 3.3 my CGPA was 3.4, URM if that makes any difference. I honestly can't believe l am entertaining the thought of trying for med school again at age 32, But would William Carey even look at my app if I applied for the entering class of 2020?
Don't know why norwood tagged you as a troll, unless it's because you haven't posted anything about your Step failure before...although a dismissal for failing Step doesn't sound exactly kosher, unless you had other issues as well, and this was the last straw.

I'll treat this as a teaching moment anyway, trolling or no.

Your medical career is over. You had your chance, and now it's time for Plan B. If anything, WCU is on much more alert for problematic students, and seems to be failing them out before they can end up unmatched.
 

Goro

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OP's post history seems legit You have my sympathies, but it truly is time for Plan B.

 
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OP's post history seems legit You have my sympathies, but it truly is time for Plan B.

You can look at my post history, I have a fulltime job, no time to troll.
My apologies for jumping the gun!
 

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granted i am not there yet and have not really ever looked at step failure policies but i have never heard, at least in SDN MD forums, of people being dismissed after a single step failure.

did you go to a Caribbean school?
 
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Unfortunately, you’re medical school training is over. DO programs are not going to want someone who’s already failed out of another medical school.

The idea that USMLE is harder than COMLEX is false; they test the exact same knowledge. And DO curriculum isn’t really any different than MD. No reason to believe you’d perform differently the second time around. And allowing it would be irresponsible as you’re already in a lot of debt; no reason to risk doubling it with no hope of repaying it should you fail again.

It sucks, but it’s time to look for other options.
 
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Any options for going overseas?

I would never recommend this under any other circumstances, but if OP can succeed in med school and rock Step 1 would the Caribbean be a feasible option?
 
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Any options for going overseas?

I would never recommend this under any other circumstances, but if OP can succeed in med school and rock Step 1 would the Caribbean be a feasible option?
This is an insanely bold strategy if they would accept him/her considering the amount of debt he/she's already in
 
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psychMDhopefully

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This is an insanely bold strategy if they would accept him/her considering the amount of debt he/she's already in

Okay, so I' gong to have to take on more debt anyway, because I'm going go to at least get a masters in something else, hopefully, an Anesthesia Assistant program. This is the first time applying to med school has crossed my mind since I've been dismissed and it was probably just the stress of change and not knowing what I'm doing next year that brought it on. I wouldn't go to the caribbean, and I know DOs defend the COMLEX as just as hard as the USMLE, but I don't see how that would be the case, the first time pass rate for US MD students on step 1 is around 93%, and for DOs it is around 75%, I would guess the pass rate on the COMLEX for DOs is higher than 75%. I thought I would have a shot at at least the new and lower tier DO schools if I got a decent MCAT score, especially WCU since I am a Mississippi resident and went to college right across town. But if not that's fine, I'll just go ahead with other plans.
 

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granted i am not there yet and have not really ever looked at step failure policies but i have never heard, at least in SDN MD forums, of people being dismissed after a single step failure.

did you go to a Caribbean school?
this^ i have never heard of any school failing out a student for failing step 1 after one attempt. People fail step and take it again and pass its not common but not unheard of and still match or soap to say FM somewhere. There has to be more to the story here. Most US medical schools want you to succeed at the end of the day. If this is really the case then try Carribb i guess theres nothing else you can do unless you try Pod, PA or NP. Howd you do in preclinical courses in med school and on the MCAT? Preclinical performance in med school has the highest correlation with performance on Step 1
 

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this^ i have never heard of any school failing out a student for failing step 1 after one attempt. People fail step and take it again and pass its not common but not unheard of and still match or soap to say FM somewhere. There has to be more to the story here. Most US medical schools want you to succeed at the end of the day. If this is really the case then try Carribb i guess theres nothing else you can do unless you try Pod, PA or NP. Howd you do in preclinical courses in med school and on the MCAT? Preclinical performance in med school has the highest correlation with performance on Step 1
Go back to Goro’s link with the OP’s original thread. They failed Step 1 three times, with the last time being by 1 point.
 
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psychMDhopefully

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this^ i have never heard of any school failing out a student for failing step 1 after one attempt. People fail step and take it again and pass its not common but not unheard of and still match or soap to say FM somewhere. There has to be more to the story here. Most US medical schools want you to succeed at the end of the day. If this is really the case then try Carribb i guess theres nothing else you can do unless you try Pod, PA or NP. Howd you do in preclinical courses in med school and on the MCAT? Preclinical performance in med school has the highest correlation with performance on Step 1

MACT was 27, Passed all precinical courses on the first try, a couple of them I barely passed with 70-71%
 

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Go back to Goro’s link with the OP’s original thread. They failed Step 1 three times, with the last time being by 1 point.
Did not see that. Makes sense now. Getting into a US DO school may be very difficult at this point but nothing is impossible. Look at Pod, PA, NP if u wanna stay in healthcare. Youll have boards for them too but I dont think theyll be as difficult as Step 1 which is probably one of if not the hardest standardized test of any professional school or graduate level program. Sorry OP this is isnt easy to deal with im sure but itll workout someway or another in the end no matter what it ends up being. Dont quote me on this but if you passed all preclinical if you apply to Pod PA or NP you may be able to remediate some classes since you already passed all courses in first two years med school. Try and see if you can get more info on that to see if you would be allowed to start halfway thru the program and save some money
 
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Cut your losses and go with AA, NP, PA, podiatry, etc. You failed Step 1 three times. After having three chances and blowing them all, you know we're not talking about a fluke. It should be remarkably clear to you that you just don't have the motivation and/or intelligence to thoroughly prepare for medical board exams. Medicine turned out to not be the right path for you. Find something else that would fulfill you. Don't make the same mistake twice.

I'm not saying the above to be harsh. I just know of one SDN user (whom I won't name) who has spent decades going in and out of various medical schools, accumulating an endless list of board failures while desperately trying to become a practicing physician. For this hopeless cause, she has piled on mountains of debt and given up precious time with her family and friends. It's just not worth it.
 
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Cut your losses and go with AA, NP, PA, podiatry, etc. You failed Step 1 three times. After having three chances and blowing them all, you know we're not talking about a fluke. It should be remarkably clear to you that you just don't have the motivation and/or intelligence to thoroughly prepare for medical board exams. Medicine turned out to not be the right path for you. Find something else that would fulfill you. Don't make the same mistake twice.

I'm not saying the above to be harsh. I just know of one SDN user (whom I won't name) who has spent decades going in and out of various medical schools, accumulating an endless list of board failures while desperately trying to become a practicing physician. For this hopeless cause, she has piled on mountains of debt and given up precious time with her family and friends. It's just not worth it.
Decades, various medical schools?!
So there are precedents for this kind of craziness?
 
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psychMDhopefully

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Did not see that. Makes sense now. Getting into a US DO school may be very difficult at this point but nothing is impossible. Look at Pod, PA, NP if u wanna stay in healthcare. Youll have boards for them too but I dont think theyll be as difficult as Step 1 which is probably one of if not the hardest standardized test of any professional school or graduate level program. Sorry OP this is isnt easy to deal with im sure but itll workout someway or another in the end no matter what it ends up being. Dont quote me on this but if you passed all preclinical if you apply to Pod PA or NP you may be able to remediate some classes since you already passed all courses in first two years med school. Try and see if you can get more info on that to see if you would be allowed to start halfway thru the program and save some money
Thanks for being kind, trying to decide between AA and Psych NP now, every now and then getting back into medicine pops into my head, I usually come to my senses and I usually have the discussion in my head, wanted to see what other people thought.


Cut your losses and go with AA, NP, PA, podiatry, etc. You failed Step 1 three times. After having three chances and blowing them all, you know we're not talking about a fluke. It should be remarkably clear to you that you just don't have the motivation and/or intelligence to thoroughly prepare for medical board exams.

You're right,
 
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Goro

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Any options for going overseas?

I would never recommend this under any other circumstances, but if OP can succeed in med school and rock Step 1 would the Caribbean be a feasible option?
OP did not succeed in medical school. The OP failed Step I 3x. The OP also admits that for some courses "a couple of them I barely passed with 70-71%"
The Carib schools grow fat and rich of candidates like these. It's literally is their business model.

This mindset that "if only they rock Step I" needs to be obliterated.
 
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Deecee2DO

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Thanks for being kind, trying to decide between AA and Psych NP now, every now and then getting back into medicine pops into my head, I usually come to my senses and I usually have the discussion in my head, wanted to see what other people thought.





You're right,
Go with pod or PA or NP. All great fields. Keep your head up
 
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Deecee2DO

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Cut your losses and go with AA, NP, PA, podiatry, etc. You failed Step 1 three times. After having three chances and blowing them all, you know we're not talking about a fluke. It should be remarkably clear to you that you just don't have the motivation and/or intelligence to thoroughly prepare for medical board exams. Medicine turned out to not be the right path for you. Find something else that would fulfill you. Don't make the same mistake twice.

I'm not saying the above to be harsh. I just know of one SDN user (whom I won't name) who has spent decades going in and out of various medical schools, accumulating an endless list of board failures while desperately trying to become a practicing physician. For this hopeless cause, she has piled on mountains of debt and given up precious time with her family and friends. It's just not worth it.
Saying that someone's intelligence is lacking because they can't pass step 1 is pretty harsh. Science/clinical science may not be his forté doesn't mean he's dumb. I do well in med school and am the slowest reader alive/suck miserably at math-i'd probably fail out of engineering school and/or law school does that mean I am not intelligent? No. You sound like a pre-med in the pre-med forums
 

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Saying that someone's intelligence is lacking because they can't pass step 1 is pretty harsh. Science/clinical science may not be his forté doesn't mean he's dumb. I do well in med school and am the slowest reader alive/suck miserably at math-i'd probably fail out of engineering school and/or law school does that mean I am not intelligent? No. You sound like a pre-med in the pre-med forums
If somebody isn’t able to successfully master a complex intellectual task after multiple attempts, then that usually means that the person lacks a required level of intelligence and/or motivation. I didn’t say that OP was “dumb,” nor did I say that a lack of intelligence was necessarily the problem in his situation; it could very well have been a lack of motivation. That’s why I said “and/or.”

I don’t know about your situation. Maybe you’re unintelligent but just extremely motivated by your dream of becoming a physician. Or maybe you’re a reincarnation Albert Einstein but prefer to describe yourself in a modest way. I don’t know you and I haven’t reviewed your IQ test results, so I can’t comment with any certainty. My point is that success on a complex intellectual task is generally determined by a combination of intelligence and motivation; an excess of or deficiency in either of these factors will make or break one’s academic or professional pursuits.
 

Deecee2DO

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If somebody isn’t able to successfully master a complex intellectual task after multiple attempts, then that usually means that the person lacks a required level of intelligence and/or motivation. I didn’t say that OP was “dumb,” nor did I say that a lack of intelligence was necessarily the problem in his situation; it could very well have been a lack of motivation. That’s why I said “and/or.”

I don’t know about your situation. Maybe you’re unintelligent but just extremely motivated by your dream of becoming a physician. Or maybe you’re a reincarnation Albert Einstein but prefer to describe yourself in a modest way. I don’t know you and I haven’t reviewed your IQ test results, so I can’t comment with any certainty. My point is that success on a complex intellectual task is generally determined by a combination of intelligence and motivation; an excess of or deficiency in either of these factors will make or break one’s academic or professional pursuits.
Not everyone is strong in science. This doesn't come down to intelligence it comes down (most likely) to the fact that OP may not be as strong in the sciences, yet he could be brilliant in another category, which category that is I do not know. The Step exam is not a measure of IQ, it measures your competency in the sciences particularly clinical sciences. I wouldn't be so quick to jump on a person's lack of intelligence because they can't pass a standardized exam in medical school
 

Deecee2DO

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To derail the post what was your strategy for the MCAT?
I can give you strategies for med school studying but not the best person from whom to take advice on MCAT preparation haha. You can PM me if you'd like. For what it is worth I got a very very poor score on CARS and did very well on bio section. You can also check out Goro's guide to success in med school highly suggest it
 
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Goro

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If somebody isn’t able to successfully master a complex intellectual task after multiple attempts, then that usually means that the person lacks a required level of intelligence and/or motivation. I didn’t say that OP was “dumb,” nor did I say that a lack of intelligence was necessarily the problem in his situation; it could very well have been a lack of motivation. That’s why I said “and/or.”

I don’t know about your situation. Maybe you’re unintelligent but just extremely motivated by your dream of becoming a physician. Or maybe you’re a reincarnation Albert Einstein but prefer to describe yourself in a modest way. I don’t know you and I haven’t reviewed your IQ test results, so I can’t comment with any certainty. My point is that success on a complex intellectual task is generally determined by a combination of intelligence and motivation; an excess of or deficiency in either of these factors will make or break one’s academic or professional pursuits.
Test taking anxiety issues are real.
So are imperfect time mgt or coping skills.
Health issues are also real.

Don't be so quick to label people.

Let's focus, OK?
 

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I said something that was perfectly reasonable based on the information presented, and OP agreed with my assessment. Now I have random people replying to me to mock me for “cracking the intelligence code” (whatever the hell that means), falsely accuse me of calling the OP “dumb” and “unintelligent,” and say that aptitude in the sciences is somehow totally disconnected from intelligence.

Sadly, this appears to be typical behavior in the DO subforums. I don’t expect anything less nowadays.

Test taking anxiety issues are real.
So are imperfect time mgt or coping skills.
Health issues are also real.

Don't be so quick to label people.

Let's focus, OK?
Health problems and test anxiety stemming from mental health problems (as opposed to that stemming from unpreparedness) are not the most common causes of poor test performance. If they were, there would be no reason to hold tests in the first place. Tests distinguish between people with different levels of knowledge and skill, and when you see lousy test scores on an application, you’re assuming that it has to do with the applicant’s lack of academic capacity or preparedness, unless he says otherwise.
 
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psychMDhopefully

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I know why I failed Step 1, and it has nothing to do with intelligence or not being able to understand clinical science, thats easy. It had more to do with not knowing how to study for a test with such an inhuman amount of material on it and remembering it all. I got a 27 on the MCAT, which is probably about average for DOs, but Step 1 covers 10x as much material as the MCAT, and the questions are written to throw you off. If you haven't taken boards yet it's hard to explain, I hope you all do well on your boards.
 

Deecee2DO

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I said something that was perfectly reasonable based on the information presented, and OP agreed with my assessment. Now I have random people replying to me to mock me for “cracking the intelligence code” (whatever the hell that means), falsely accuse me of calling the OP “dumb” and “unintelligent,” and say that aptitude in the sciences is somehow totally disconnected from intelligence.

Sadly, this appears to be typical behavior in the DO subforums. I don’t expect anything less nowadays.



Very interesting. Do you make these sorts of excuses for the students who apply to your medical school? It must be very challenging for you to put applications in the rejection pile since you’re so adamant about giving people the benefit of the doubt, even against the odds. “Oh, he failed half his classes? Well, he didn’t say anything, but maybe it was a health issue. Or maybe he instantly weeps and pisses himself whenever he’s taking a final exam.” When going through thousands of applications, don’t the people in your admissions office “label” people, Goro?
You aren't even in medical school yet. Seems like you have it all figured out for a pre-med. Goro has a lot of experience in medical school admissions and pre-clinical medical coursework and his input here is completely sound. Anyhow this thread isn't about IQ it is about advice for OP going forward and I think he has gotten what he needed if I am not mistaken
 

Osminog

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Anyway, OP, best of luck with whichever track you choose. The AA and psych NP routes are both excellent, and I’ve heard more than a few physicians say that they wish they had gone down one of those paths to save time and money. (Sorry that this thread turned into a ****show, and for my contribution to it.)

See ya, everybody. Unfollowing.
 

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Okay, so I' gong to have to take on more debt anyway, because I'm going go to at least get a masters in something else, hopefully, an Anesthesia Assistant program. This is the first time applying to med school has crossed my mind since I've been dismissed and it was probably just the stress of change and not knowing what I'm doing next year that brought it on. I wouldn't go to the caribbean, and I know DOs defend the COMLEX as just as hard as the USMLE, but I don't see how that would be the case, the first time pass rate for US MD students on step 1 is around 93%, and for DOs it is around 75%, I would guess the pass rate on the COMLEX for DOs is higher than 75%. I thought I would have a shot at at least the new and lower tier DO schools if I got a decent MCAT score, especially WCU since I am a Mississippi resident and went to college right across town. But if not that's fine, I'll just go ahead with other plans.
The first time pass rate in 2018 on step 1 for DOs is exactly the same as MDs, 96%. Where did you get 75%???

That being said I totally think you could pass comlex and the usmle. And I disagree you are dead in the water. I know quite a few people with strange stories and some not too different from yours. Good luck man. I vote to go for AA.

 
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I’m sorry to hear of your troubles OP, I really am. Not everyone can retain the vast amount of material required for STEP.

If this were me, I would look into either Pod or Optometry school. I really doubt a DO school will take you on. The only way I can see it is I led you went into a linkage masters and rocked it. So it’s still possible, but unlikely.

Podiatry school is prolly gonna be the best rebound you can have. The first two years are literally identical to DO schools at 3 Pod schools, and the Pod boards are much easier than STEP. as a pod, you are still clinically a “doctor” as you diagnose, treat, and fix medical problems of the foot an ankle.
 
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Deecee2DO

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I’m sorry to hear of your troubles OP, I really am. Not everyone can retain the vast amount of material required for STEP.

If this were me, I would look into either Pod or Optometry school. I really doubt a DO school will take you on. The only way I can see it is I led you went into a linkage masters and rocked it. So it’s still possible, but unlikely.

Podiatry school is prolly gonna be the best rebound you can have. The first two years are literally identical to DO schools at 3 Pod schools, and the Pod boards are much easier than STEP. as a pod, you are still clinically a “doctor” as you diagnose, treat, and fix medical problems of the foot an ankle.
Yes^ I agree would consider Pods actual physicians/surgeons or at least the closest to physician you can get without MD/DO. 4 years of medical training (foot and ankle) followed by 3-4 years of training with rx and surgical rights. Really cool field if you want to still be a doctor. Not sure if youre into PMR ortho or surgery OP but pod can encompass portions of all of them just the lower extremity also you can make some darn good money to support yourself
 
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OP, first of all I'm sorry this happened to you.

I think your chances of getting into a DO school are very low. If you do wish to pursue this path maybe PM this guy for advice or just read through the thread and see how difficult it was: Failed out of DO program, trying to get back in

You'd need to retake the MCAT and even then the newer DO schools might not consider your app.

Would you consider podiatry or PA/NP/other mid-level position? Maybe check if your classes would transfer?
 
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I would die if this happened to me. I wouldn't know what to do. I am so sorry this happened to you. Couldn't imagine.
 
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I said something that was perfectly reasonable based on the information presented, and OP agreed with my assessment. Now I have random people replying to me to mock me for “cracking the intelligence code” (whatever the hell that means), falsely accuse me of calling the OP “dumb” and “unintelligent,” and say that aptitude in the sciences is somehow totally disconnected from intelligence.

Sadly, this appears to be typical behavior in the DO subforums. I don’t expect anything less nowadays.



Health problems and test anxiety stemming from mental health problems (as opposed to that stemming from unpreparedness) are not the most common causes of poor test performance. If they were, there would be no reason to hold tests in the first place. Tests distinguish between people with different levels of knowledge and skill, and when you see lousy test scores on an application, you’re assuming that it has to do with the applicant’s lack of academic capacity or preparedness, unless he says otherwise.
Dude. Don't judge people like this in med school.

Also, most low test scores in my class are overwhelmingly related to mental health, stress, personal/home issues, or certain personalities failing to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Also, there are a lot of issues with the way we test, and I'm not sure they do such a tremendous job of judging the physicians we will be. Personally, if OP was a point away the last time, he'd be a perfectly competent physician.

Good luck OP with whatever you do.
 
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Sorry this happened. I would go the podiatry route. Not sure you can convince schools you can get through school and pass boards. Schools ask on applications if you’ve ever been in school before or dropped out. What would you tell them? What do you think will be different this time around? This is what they will want to know.
 
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Isoval

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OP, first of all I'm sorry this happened to you.

I think your chances of getting into a DO school are very low. If you do wish to pursue this path maybe PM this guy for advice or just read through the thread and see how difficult it was: Failed out of DO program, trying to get back in

You'd need to retake the MCAT and even then the newer DO schools might not consider your app.

Would you consider podiatry or PA/NP/other mid-level position? Maybe check if your classes would transfer?
HEY YOU FOUND IT!

I've been referencing this thread for weeks and haven't been able to find it since I read it a year or so ago.
 

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Okay, so I' gong to have to take on more debt anyway, because I'm going go to at least get a masters in something else, hopefully, an Anesthesia Assistant program. This is the first time applying to med school has crossed my mind since I've been dismissed and it was probably just the stress of change and not knowing what I'm doing next year that brought it on. I wouldn't go to the caribbean, and I know DOs defend the COMLEX as just as hard as the USMLE, but I don't see how that would be the case, the first time pass rate for US MD students on step 1 is around 93%, and for DOs it is around 75%, I would guess the pass rate on the COMLEX for DOs is higher than 75%. I thought I would have a shot at at least the new and lower tier DO schools if I got a decent MCAT score, especially WCU since I am a Mississippi resident and went to college right across town. But if not that's fine, I'll just go ahead with other plans.
Naah, those numbers are wrong.

And I took them both, can without a doubt say that one isn’t “harder” than the other; just different. USMLE has better written questions as an example.

You should also know, some states won’t license someone with more than a couple of board failures. That’s why most schools will dismiss you if you fail a certain number of times.