Faith and Medicine

[trudub]

I am curious what kinds of things you have seen physicians do to incorporate their faith into their practice? Do any of you have ideas about how you intend to incorporate your faith into your practice? What do you believe the role of faith in medicine should be?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[jonb12997]

May I suggest the book "Spirituality in Medicine", also the Christian medical dental association... http://www.cmda.org

 

[trudub]

I appreciate the suggestion. I have read books on the topic and such. What I am really looking for is feedback from the future medical community which is us. I am wondering what people think about spirituality in medicine and how YOU not somone who is writing a book or a statement representing an organization might view. I think it is an interesting topic to discuss.

 

[dr4ku]

I am curious what kinds of things you have seen physicians do to incorporate their faith into their practice? Do any of you have ideas about how you intend to incorporate your faith into your practice? What do you believe the role of faith in medicine should be?

I have a few friends that are physicians. One is the president of a very large cardiology group, one leads the hepatobilliary surgical transplant team @ a research hospital, another is a trauma surgeon @ a level I and the other just left her surgical group to practice medicine in Africa. Each and every one of these people incorporate faith into their work and lives. I have shadowed each and it is amazing to see a surgeon pray with their patient prior to going under, another giving a short testimony and another praying prior to rounds, etc., etc... ((One quick story. The cardiologist tells me, D., do you realize the human heart is fully functioning, fully capable of transfering fluid to every part of the body when it is within the mothers womb and only the size of this pencil head(and not the eraser end))) Amazing!!

I will incorporate all of these activities into my practice. It is me now and it will be me then. When we've been There, 10000 years, bright shining like the sun, this time on earth will have been just a blip and blink of our eye. Yet, all the people we will have touched, will stay with us. The responsibility of being a physician is amazing and truly awesome. Yet, the ability to eternally shape, have impact on, or influence the life of someone will be what truly defines us as healers!

Give God the Glory, He deserves it! He has gifted us with special talents. All of which we can maximize or leave on a shelf to be covered in dust. I for one, want to live life to the fullest extent God has had planned for me.

PS I'm 38, One beautiful wife with 3 gorgeous girls. I'm completely estrogenized and lovin' life! Hey, call me lucky or what! I say blessed

 

[Elysium]

dr4ku, you have written one of the scariest posts on SDN I've read in a long time. Are you kidding me?

Anyway, this has been discussed ad infinitum on SDN. Here's some links so we don't have to go through this again...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=163427&highlight=religion+medicine

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71602&highlight=religion+medicine

 

[pillowhead]

((One quick story. The cardiologist tells me, D., do you realize the human heart is fully functioning, fully capable of transfering fluid to every part of the body when it is within the mothers womb and only the size of this pencil head(and not the eraser end))) Amazing!!
)

not so sure that's true--the heart doesn't start beating until month 2 anyway. and i don't think that has anything to do with religion...the hearts of fetal animals just begins beating and they certainly don't believe in anything.

I don't think physicians should incorporate THEIR faith in the practice of medicine except maybe privately at home if it helps them cope. If the patient wants to talk about religion, it should be a PATIENT-directed conversation with the physician doing little more than acknowledging and validating the patient's feelings, not sharing their own. At that point, please call the chaplain as that is what they are trained to do, and most are very talented at multi-faith counseling without injecting their own beliefs from what I have seen.

 

[amae]

As a doctor you need to realize that not everyone has the same veiws as you. As a doctor you are in a power of position and using that power to willingly or unwillingly impose your faith on someone else is a misuse of that power. I would personally feel very uncomfortable if my physician was to bring up for example a christian god oriented veiw of life and dealing with illness. If the patient brings up the subject that is fine it is ignorant to make assumptions about such things.

 

[mfrederi]

Everybody has their opinion. However, to those that think faith should not "intrude" into the medical world, consider this: To you, faith is a way of coping, or a moral framework on which society is based. Or perhaps it is the "opium of the masses" as it has been called, or "a crutch." To those with a deep abiding faith in God who sincerely contribute life, death, and all in between to his providential plan, it must be shared. Whether or not you agree, think it is right or wrong, appropriate or inappropriate is irrelevant. People who possess such faith (which honestly anybody that doesn't have "it" can not understand) their higher mandate is sharing of their beliefs, regardless of other's feelings. Think about it, if you thought that you knew the secret to life and the path to heaven (and, conversely the way to avoid eternal suffering) then incorporating this into everything you do is absolutely imperative. I plan on sharing my faith in every circumstance I can, because I believe that it is more important then PCN or anything else that I can give them. Healing the body is a losing battle, 10/10 people die you know.

 

[mfrederi]

Additionally, to say you must wait for the pt to bring it up is like saying you shouldn't ask about smoking, or drinking, or risky sex, street drug use, etc. I believe that faith changes a person's life in many positive ways, and more importantly affects their eternal destination, wouldn't I be remiss if I didn't ask them about this the same as I would talk to them about other life changes that would be positive? Just because you are a doctor doesn't forfit your personality or your beliefs. When I applied for school everybody on the adcom knew I wanted to be a doctor because I felt it was a spiritual mission and wanted to help people both physically and spiritually. If this was wrong and inappropriate then they shouldn't have let me in.

 

[trudub]

Certainly one of the missions of Jesus on Earth was a healing mission. Doctors have the wonderful opportunity to continue that healing mission by first healing the body and then helping to heal the spirit. I think any opportunity that arises is a chance that should be seized to share your faith. The previous poster nailed it on the head, if you don't have that deep, life-capturing faith, I don't think it is something you can understand. But, if you have the secret to life, the secret to everything in this universe and beyond, you want to share it at every turn. Now, that being said, I don't think you should IMPOSE your religious beliefs on the patient but I also don't think it takes a chaplain to be able to discuss religion. In a recent survey from a couple of years ago that was published in JAMA, 78% of patients believe their doctor SHOULD address their spiritual life and be a person they can talk to about their spiritual life. Doctors are much more than healers of the body.

I also think it is important for the doctor to incorporate faith into his practice in a person way though. Maybe by praying with any of the surgical team that is willing before surgery or by praying before you round in the morning, just as a way to thank God for the talents and the ability to carry on the healing mission in this world.

 

[amae]

People can have faith in things other than "your god". This is a very diverse world and christianity is not the only religion. If you beleive it is your job to share the secret you speak of then work through the churches and mission work, not the hospitals and doctors offices. I believe that the mind is a very big part of healing and that may have to do with religion for some people but not all. Some people believe in finding strength within themselves and not relying on a god to deliver them. By pushing your beleifs on them you are telling tham they are wrong, which may or may not be true, but will most likely demean there faith in you and possible the medical community. By going into medicine you are making a commitment to the patient, if you can't understand the possibility of demeaning someone elses beliefs by being so focused on your own you are being blind. Also, asking about smoking or drinking are completely different subjects. Spirituality doesn't affect lung or liver function unless you are discussing yoga which is associated most closely with buddhism, a way of thinking, not a religion.

i am not attacking religion, i am emphasizing the fact that you can not make assumptions of what is good for others based on what is good for you. just like how every body acts and reacts slightly different.

diversity is what makes this world great. embrace it, don't stiffle it.

 

[trudub]

That is why I said do not impose your religion on other people but rather be open to the discussion of spirituality with your patients. Most of them want that from you. I think too often spirituality is a subject doctors are not comfortable discussing with their patients, it is a topic that is danced around at times. I am not saying shove your religion in their face, but I am saying that I think spirituality--the general topic--should be one that is discussed with your patients. For one, most of them want you to be someone they can talk about spirituality with. In addition, spirituality has been shown to have positive benefits in all sorts of health related matters ranging from blood pressure, to alcohol abuse, to recovery after surgery. And, it has been shown to be the spiritual component rather than the merely social support aspect that religion provides. So, I am not saying shove your religion in someone else's face but I am saying that I think spirituality is a topic doctors should be willing to discuss with their patients and if the patient is interested, a doctor should not be afraid to share their faith with their patients.

 

[SOUNDMAN]

not so sure that's true--the heart doesn't start beating until month 2 anyway. and i don't think that has anything to do with religion...the hearts of fetal animals just begins beating and they certainly don't believe in anything.

Umm on ultrasound you can see the heart beating at 5-6 weeks gestation.

 

[v-tach]

That is why I said do not impose your religion on other people but rather be open to the discussion of spirituality with your patients. Most of them want that from you. I think too often spirituality is a subject doctors are not comfortable discussing with their patients, it is a topic that is danced around at times. I am not saying shove your religion in their face, but I am saying that I think spirituality--the general topic--should be one that is discussed with your patients. For one, most of them want you to be someone they can talk about spirituality with. In addition, spirituality has been shown to have positive benefits in all sorts of health related matters ranging from blood pressure, to alcohol abuse, to recovery after surgery. And, it has been shown to be the spiritual component rather than the merely social support aspect that religion provides. So, I am not saying shove your religion in someone else's face but I am saying that I think spirituality is a topic doctors should be willing to discuss with their patients and if the patient is interested, a doctor should not be afraid to share their faith with their patients.

Good points. I think what a lot of people miss is that there's a real difference between sharing your faith with people vs. trying to shove it down their throats (which is, I think, the main beef people have with this whole topic). And some of this, I will freely admit, is due to well-meaning Christians who are trying to do the right thing but going about it the wrong way and being offensive. The key is to share, but "do so with gentleness and respect" (that's in 2 Peter but I don't remember the exact location). FYI, if you go to www.cmdahome.org (Christian Medical and Dental Association) they even have a placement service for people who are interested in joining a Christian practice--this would likely give you more freedom to share your faith without the fear of getting in trouble. Plus, in a situation like that where everyone's open about it, patients know up front--and they are free to go somewhere else if they don't like it. Personally it's something I will seriously consider when it comes time to look for a place to practice.

 

[12R34Y]

Good points. I think what a lot of people miss is that there's a real difference between sharing your faith with people vs. trying to shove it down their throats (which is, I think, the main beef people have with this whole topic). And some of this, I will freely admit, is due to well-meaning Christians who are trying to do the right thing but going about it the wrong way and being offensive. The key is to share, but "do so with gentleness and respect" (that's in 2 Peter but I don't remember the exact location). FYI, if you go to www.cmdahome.org (Christian Medical and Dental Association) they even have a placement service for people who are interested in joining a Christian practice--this would likely give you more freedom to share your faith without the fear of getting in trouble. Plus, in a situation like that where everyone's open about it, patients know up front--and they are free to go somewhere else if they don't like it. Personally it's something I will seriously consider when it comes time to look for a place to practice.

I absolutely agree with some of the above posters. Sharing faith and discussing it with patients is very valuable. I do it and will continue to do it. There is a big difference between imposing and talking about spirituality. If your patient is a Christian then praying with them may be an awesome thing to do. If your patient isn't a Christian then talking with them about their individual religion is great as well. Diversity is great....we have to remember that Christianity is one of the diverse religions and shouldn't be excluded.

later

 

[jonb12997]

If your patient is a Christian then praying with them may be an awesome thing to do. If your patient isn't a Christian then talking with them about their individual religion is great as well. Diversity is great....we have to remember that Christianity is one of the diverse religions and shouldn't be excluded.

I very much agree with this statement. I probably won't know exactly how I'm going to handle it untill I get into practice, but I certainly feel like this is very much how I'll practice.

 

[pillowhead]

Umm on ultrasound you can see the heart beating at 5-6 weeks gestation.

right, which would be month 2.

weeks 1-4 ~1 month
weeks 5-8 ~2 months

 

[Echinoidea]

So, can we also discuss a lack of faith? I mean, would it be appropriate for me to share my deep-seated and profound love of atheism with a dying cancer patient? I feel so full of my secular humanism that I simply must share it with my patients. If I were not to bring up atheism in a discussion of spirituality then wouldn't I be doing my patients harm?

Is a lack of spirituality just as a valid as possesing a sense of spirituality?

I bring this up because it will probably offend some of you and elicit some strong responses - and thats exactly how offended and disgusted I'd be if I felt my physician was 'witnessing' or evangelizing to me.

I have no problem with a discussion of generic spirituality that is initiated by the patient or the physician. What I do have a problem with is a person in a position of power (the physician) engaging a patient in a clinical setting with an effort to promote their specific religion.

 

[Orth2006]

As a doctor you need to realize that not everyone has the same veiws as you. As a doctor you are in a power of position and using that power to willingly or unwillingly impose your faith on someone else is a misuse of that power. I would personally feel very uncomfortable if my physician was to bring up for example a christian god oriented veiw of life and dealing with illness. If the patient brings up the subject that is fine it is ignorant to make assumptions about such things.

I agree with Amae.

I think this is where the Ethics side of medical practice surfaces. There was a case not too long ago when a pharmacist wouldn't dispense a certain drug (more less abortion drug) to a lady because he was anti-abortion. The lady had a prescription and if i rember right I think she had been raped (hence her pregnancy). The pharmacist got fired and then sued his company for firing him.

My personal take is this - I don't believe the pharmacist should have compromised his own beliefs. However he should have asked another pharmacist to take over his duties. To ignore the woman and essential tell her to have a baby she does not want is wrong. She was raped for goodness sake!!! Its much more a different case if she wasn't.

So a line has to be drawn sometimes when it comes to faith and medicine. As a doctor I will let my faith help me be the best doctor I can be. But I will not let my faith affect my patients unless solicited. It is just good ethics.

A doctor is not a healer. Only GOD is the healer. A doctor (surgery, medication, biochem processes, prayer etc) is just a conduit for healing - a pathway through which GOD's healing can affect the patient. Never let your faith get in the way.

 

[12R34Y]

There is no law or rule that ANY physician has to refer to another physician to perform a service that he does not believe to be in the best interest of the patient. If I don't believe that abortion should be performed then I'm not going to send them to somebody who will do it.

This always elicits a bajillion responses, but bottom line..........there many many practices and physicians in this country that will refuse to offer somebody abortion services and will NOT refer. They will discuss every other option, but NOT abortion.

Just because you become a physician you don't have to stop being a person with beliefs and morals. We make a lot of decisions out of the patients best interest even though they may "want something else". If a 20 year-old patient came to you with a c/o of a cough and he read somewhere on the internet that digoxin will fix it...........would you prescribe it? no.....the patient "chose" it and desperately feels it is what he wants. You still don't do it. Now what if there was a doctor down the road that you know prescribes digoxin to anyone who ask even if it is not indicated and could possibly do harm to someone. would you write a referral to that doctor KNOWING that they are going to get that drug you KNOW they don't need?

same argument.

The pharmacist did the right thing if he does not believe in abortion. If you believe that something equates to murder of an innocent life then how realistic and passionate in your belief would you be if you referred them to someone to carry out that murder?

No court and no group can MAKE a physician carry out a procedure that he/she does not wish to perform. A physician has an ethical responsibility to treat all life threatening or potentially life threatening events in a reasonable fashion, but things like abortion are not covered under that umbrella.

Let's not turn this into an abortion debate.

later

 

[pillowhead]

Let's not turn this into an abortion debate.

later

you've got to be kidding me. so it's OK for you to go on about your pro-life standpoint just as long as others don't respond. real nice

 

[adennis]

I think maybe the argument regarding the pharmacists dispensing birth control pills or abortion drugs (such as RU486) can be made that if you have those beliefs, that you shouldn't be in that position.

Physicians can choose and do choose whether they want to or are willing to perform abortions.. many do not want to... and so they don't... they don't put themselves in that position...

I don't know that I would call myself a person "of faith".. I do have some spiritual beliefs - but none can be ascribed to any one belief set... I've seen nurses mostly "witness" to patients.. and I've had them witness to me.. and honestly, I was offended.... I think it takes a lot of gall to impose your beliefs on someone else...

HOWEVER, I know that I won't hesitate to share my amazement and awe of human life with any of my patients. This is my "religion" if you will... we should always be in awe and have a great respect for what our bodies do.. how they sustain themselves.. and how they have the ability to heal themselves.

 

[mfrederi]

When people "witness" it is offensive, it is intrusive, and angers alot of people. That doesn't really mean anything if you believe what you are doing is the right thing. Christians are trying to emulate the life of Christ. Did he offend people and annoy them, and anger them? Yes, in fact to the point that they stuck him on a cross and killed him. Why would someone go to such extremes? Because they believe that it is the right (not fun or popular) thing to do in the eyes of God, but not nescessarily (actually rarely) in the eyes of men. I am sorry for those that are offended when I speak to them about Christ. I am also sorry for any pt that I have to tell that he has cancer. But everybody has a terminal condition- and there is only one remedy I know... I don't want people to think that I am going to just go off on every person about Christ. Not at all. But, if I feel that a person is in need of Christ and feel lead to speak with him about it, I hope I will. Regardless of how it makes him or myself feel (it is not really fun having people angrily screaming at you, cursing you, etc). If the only thing doctors were supposed to do is make people feel good, why don't we all just open methadone clinics and sit back and cross our legs?

 

[deuist]

The Center for Spirituality and Health at the University of Florida deals with issues of religion and health.

 

[Elysium]

I just want all you evangelical kooks to know that if I were your patient (which, in the unlikely event that god does exist, I never will be) and you started proselytizing to me about jesus dying for me and you living in his image I would probably scream right in your face and then take you to court. That is about the most offensive, vile, delusional thing I have ever heard. If I wanted to talk to someone about god, I would go to a priest, not the local doctor down the street. What in the hell gives you the authority to talk about god to people? Priests and ministers receive some sort of theological education which at least gives them the authority to talk about the teachings of god. If they are so important to you, by all means, go to far parts of the world and talk up jesus to everyone that will listen. But that is NOT your right as a physician. You are there to treat your patients with the tools that medicine has to offer, not the epheremal solution you have embraced. You guys are NOT jesus, are NOT christ like, are NOT doing anything for the greater good. You are scondrals, dishonest, and misrepresent what medicine is truly about.

Your self important superiority is nausating. I hope someone sues you for mental abuse after you pull one of these evangelical christian stunts.

 

[sacrament]

When people "witness" it is offensive, it is intrusive, and angers alot of people. That doesn't really mean anything if you believe what you are doing is the right thing. Christians are trying to emulate the life of Christ. Did he offend people and annoy them, and anger them? Yes, in fact to the point that they stuck him on a cross and killed him. Why would someone go to such extremes? Because they believe that it is the right (not fun or popular) thing to do in the eyes of God, but not nescessarily (actually rarely) in the eyes of men. I am sorry for those that are offended when I speak to them about Christ. I am also sorry for any pt that I have to tell that he has cancer. But everybody has a terminal condition- and there is only one remedy I know... I don't want people to think that I am going to just go off on every person about Christ. Not at all. But, if I feel that a person is in need of Christ and feel lead to speak with him about it, I hope I will. Regardless of how it makes him or myself feel (it is not really fun having people angrily screaming at you, cursing you, etc). If the only thing doctors were supposed to do is make people feel good, why don't we all just open methadone clinics and sit back and cross our legs?

People like you are why the world sucks. I mean that from the bottom of my godless heart. If it was legal to physically assault people who witness, I'd carry a bat with me at all times. Congratulations, your post has irritated me to the point of daydreaming about extreme violence, so I guess that means you're successfully doing the good Lord's work. Carry on you lunatic christian soldier.

 

[sacrament]

If this was wrong and inappropriate then they shouldn't have let me in.

They shouldn't have let you in.

 

[mfrederi]

People like you are why the world sucks. I mean that from the bottom of my godless heart. If it was legal to physically assault people who witness, I'd carry a bat with me at all times. Congratulations, your post has irritated me to the point of daydreaming about extreme violence, so I guess that means you're successfully doing the good Lord's work. Carry on you lunatic christian soldier.

intersting that someone who wants to physically assualt people with a bat and dreams of extreme physical violence is telling me that I am the reason why the world sucks. Why does it make you so mad for someone to talk to you about their faith? Do you get this mad whenever anyone has a different opinon than you? If you are a Yankees fan and I am a Sox fan do you still want to attack me with a bat? I think the answer is probably "no," and I am sure since you are in medical school that you have at least some measure of self control in your life. So why is faith such a hot button issue with you? Have I said anything that should truly evoke anybody to violence? I think that the gospel message is in general a message of love, mercy, and sacrifice. Are these qualities offensive? For all those who have inferred that I am self righteous, what are you? Aren't you saying that you have the true answer and have no need to listen to anybody else?

 

[mfrederi]

I just want all you evangelical kooks to know that if I were your patient (which, in the unlikely event that god does exist, I never will be) and you started proselytizing to me about jesus dying for me and you living in his image I would probably scream right in your face and then take you to court. That is about the most offensive, vile, delusional thing I have ever heard. If I wanted to talk to someone about god, I would go to a priest, not the local doctor down the street. What in the hell gives you the authority to talk about god to people? Priests and ministers receive some sort of theological education which at least gives them the authority to talk about the teachings of god. If they are so important to you, by all means, go to far parts of the world and talk up jesus to everyone that will listen. But that is NOT your right as a physician. You are there to treat your patients with the tools that medicine has to offer, not the epheremal solution you have embraced. You guys are NOT jesus, are NOT christ like, are NOT doing anything for the greater good. You are scondrals, dishonest, and misrepresent what medicine is truly about.

Your self important superiority is nausating. I hope someone sues you for mental abuse after you pull one of these evangelical christian stunts.

I doubt anyone can sue me for mental abuse, but who knows? Your right, I am dishonest, a scoundral, and don't think that I am anything like Jesus. Whatever demeaning thing you say about me I will probably agree with you. Thus my need for a savior. However one thing I can try to do to be like Christ is share his word. I don't know how much you know about the Bible (although I suspect that anybody with such strong opinions on the issue has indeed explored option, i.e. has a pretty good biblical knowledge base) but Jesus was not a thelologian, or a priest. Actually, he was in the Jewish sense of the word a heretic. And, since he was a homeless carpenter from a piddly little state in the Roman empire they couldn't sue him, only kill him. What about faith angers you so much? I would love to know so I can try my best to avoid making people like yourself as angry as you are right now. Or, to keep sacrament from hitting me with a bat.

 

[pillowhead]

For all those who have inferred that I am self righteous, what are you? Aren't you saying that you have the true answer and have no need to listen to anybody else?

i think what many non-christians and non-evangelical christians find frustrating is that last sentence there. No, I'm not saying I have the "true answer" but I sure as heck don't think you have it either. The difference is, I haven't convinced myself that I'm 100% right and therefore need to shout my message aloud to world.

Is it so hard for evangelicals to get that not everyone is convinced they have the true answer or that one even exists? I have listened to evangelical Christians and I reject what they have to offer. You might think it's the almighty truth, but guess what? You have no way to prove it. So leave me alone, and let me do my thing and you can do yours. If you absolutely must preach to the world about your faith all the time, be a preacher, not a doctor.

 

[gwinegea]

i think what many non-christians and non-evangelical christians find frustrating is that last sentence there. No, I'm not saying I have the "true answer" but I sure as heck don't think you have it either. The difference is, I haven't convinced myself that I'm 100% right and therefore need to shout my message aloud to world.

Is it so hard for evangelicals to get that not everyone is convinced they have the true answer or that one even exists? I have listened to evangelical Christians and I reject what they have to offer. You might think it's the almighty truth, but guess what? You have no way to prove it. So leave me alone, and let me do my thing and you can do yours. If you absolutely must preach to the world about your faith all the time, be a preacher, not a doctor.

Pillowhead, you correctly identified the difference between yourself and Christians. I know, for myself, I am 100% convinced I have found the "true answer." Why are you unwilling to listen? What if I am right, and you are wrong? What does that mean for you?

 

[BCF81]

So, can we also discuss a lack of faith? I mean, would it be appropriate for me to share my deep-seated and profound love of atheism with a dying cancer patient? I feel so full of my secular humanism that I simply must share it with my patients. If I were not to bring up atheism in a discussion of spirituality then wouldn't I be doing my patients harm?

I think the whole point of sharing one’s faith is to help in the healing process – to give the patient hope and a positive mind frame. These can be extremely powerful factors in healing. Whether that would be the intended outcome of a physician sharing in spirituality with the patient, well, that must depend on the patient.

So, no, it would not be appropriate to share an outlook of atheism with the patient dying of cancer- what positive influence could that possibly bring?? I couldn't think of a more horrible thing to do.

Probably just not addressing the issue would make more sense if you don’t have anything positive to contribute to the patients well being. I see your point however- but the bottom line is the physician at least “believing” he has the patient’s best interest at heart when sharing his or her views.

 

[adennis]

Whatever demeaning thing you say about me I will probably agree with you. Thus my need for a savior. However one thing I can try to do to be like Christ is share his word.

One thing that's always disturbed me about many christians is this philosophy... that you can commit these "sins", "crimes" or whatever.. and yet because you believe in a savior, you are ok... well it's not ok.. I have a novel proposition... if you want to be "like christ" then why not act like he suggested you act.. love others, give of yourself, etc etc etc... the best way to be "like christ" is not necessarily to share his word, but to be an example for others.. do as I DO...not just how I say.. because if you say one thing, and do another, that makes you nothing more than a hippocrite hiding behind a scapegoat who will take all your blame...

sorry if this sounds harsh.. I have no "issues" with christians or the religion itself.. but I do have issues with hypocrisy...

 

[BCF81]

One thing that's always disturbed me about many christians is this philosophy... that you can commit these "sins", "crimes" or whatever.. and yet because you believe in a savior, you are ok... well it's not ok.. I have a novel proposition... if you want to be "like christ" then why not act like he suggested you act.. love others, give of yourself, etc etc etc... the best way to be "like christ" is not necessarily to share his word, but to be an example for others.. do as I DO...not just how I say.. because if you say one thing, and do another, that makes you nothing more than a hippocrite hiding behind a scapegoat who will take all your blame...

sorry if this sounds harsh.. I have no "issues" with christians or the religion itself.. but I do have issues with hypocrisy...

Well said....

 

[trudub]

Exactly right, "faith without works is dead." Or more directly, those people who are hypocrites do not have faith at all. Now that being said, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do as Jesus did and live a perfect life. That doesn't mean Christians should not try, it just means they are bound to slip up every once and a while. Thus, that is why we need a Savior. So for those who make an honest effort and slip up every now and again, they are not hypocrites. Jesus dying on the cross is not a get out jail free card though that lets Christians do whatever they want to. However, that being said, for those who do have deep seeded faith, those slip ups are truly forgotten, like they never happened in the eyes of God and that is only possible through the Cross.

 

[12R34Y]

Exactly right, "faith without works is dead." Or more directly, those people who are hypocrites do not have faith at all. Now that being said, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do as Jesus did and live a perfect life. That doesn't mean Christians should not try, it just means they are bound to slip up every once and a while. Thus, that is why we need a Savior. So for those who make an honest effort and slip up every now and again, they are not hypocrites. Jesus dying on the cross is not a get out jail free card though that lets Christians do whatever they want to. However, that being said, for those who do have deep seeded faith, those slip ups are truly forgotten, like they never happened in the eyes of God and that is only possible through the Cross.

well said.

 

[pillowhead]

Pillowhead, you correctly identified the difference between yourself and Christians. I know, for myself, I am 100% convinced I have found the "true answer." Why are you unwilling to listen? What if I am right, and you are wrong? What does that mean for you?

I could say the same thing back to you. Why are you unwilling to listen? What if I am right and you are wrong?

I have listened, and I reject what you and evangelicals have to offer. Do not assume that the battle is just getting someone to listen and that all non-Christians just haven't heard the message. You must also convince them that what you say is right.

 

[deuist]

I just want all you evangelical kooks to know that if I were your patient (which, in the unlikely event that god does exist, I never will be) and you started proselytizing to me about jesus dying for me and you living in his image I would probably scream right in your face and then take you to court.

Yikes, that's harsh. I'm not aware of a single physician that shares his faith with his patients. I'm even met some religious doctors who are willing to partake in the religious activites of hospice patients.

 

[Saved Satan]

So, can we also discuss a lack of faith? I mean, would it be appropriate for me to share my deep-seated and profound love of atheism with a dying cancer patient? I feel so full of my secular humanism that I simply must share it with my patients. If I were not to bring up atheism in a discussion of spirituality then wouldn't I be doing my patients harm?

Is a lack of spirituality just as a valid as possesing a sense of spirituality?

I bring this up because it will probably offend some of you and elicit some strong responses - and thats exactly how offended and disgusted I'd be if I felt my physician was 'witnessing' or evangelizing to me.

I have no problem with a discussion of generic spirituality that is initiated by the patient or the physician. What I do have a problem with is a person in a position of power (the physician) engaging a patient in a clinical setting with an effort to promote their specific religion.

Atheism is a belief. You believe that god doesn't exist. Others believe that god exist. What all of you have in common is "belief." Human being cannot live without some sort of belief. At least, that's what I overheard when He created that ugly, pathetic Adam a while back. I didn't care. I still don't.

 

[Saved Satan]

So, no, it would not be appropriate to share an outlook of atheism with the patient dying of cancer- what positive influence could that possibly bring?? I couldn't think of a more horrible thing to do.

Probably just not addressing the issue would make more sense if you don’t have anything positive to contribute to the patients well being. I see your point however- but the bottom line is the physician at least “believing” he has the patient’s best interest at heart when sharing his or her views.

And on what ground, other than your faith in after life, do you assume that no-after life outlook is a "horror" to a dying patient? Have you been around enough to talk with some people who just want to be gone, disappear for good, no more life whether it be before or after? To those an atheistic promise of complete end of life is a heavenly hope sweet as honey of king David.

 

[jonb12997]

where's cooldreams in all this? He seems to love these type of conversations. I'm very surprised he hasn't shown up yet....

On a serious note, I think the important thing is to be respectful. If someone is interested and they come out and ask, I will certainly share my faith, but if someone doesn't want anything to do with it, I will be respectful and not push it. It's all about being respectful of what your patients want... IMHO that is

 

[mfrederi]

One thing that's always disturbed me about many christians is this philosophy... that you can commit these "sins", "crimes" or whatever.. and yet because you believe in a savior, you are ok... well it's not ok.. I have a novel proposition... if you want to be "like christ" then why not act like he suggested you act.. love others, give of yourself, etc etc etc... the best way to be "like christ" is not necessarily to share his word, but to be an example for others.. do as I DO...not just how I say.. because if you say one thing, and do another, that makes you nothing more than a hippocrite hiding behind a scapegoat who will take all your blame...

sorry if this sounds harsh.. I have no "issues" with christians or the religion itself.. but I do have issues with hypocrisy...

Just because I tell others about the gospel does not mean that I can not try to be an example of what faith in Christ can mean as well by my everyday actions. They are not mutually exclusive. In fact, one means very little without the other, as you correctly point out. One problem with this is that I am not God, nor will I ever be. And in that I am not worthy of being anyone's example. Maybe I can show them what faith in God does in everyday life, but by my own actions can never show them what perfect love looks like. However, I also know that you can find many, many instances of both Christ and the apostles "witnessing" or whatever you choose to call it. And, when I speak to someone about Christ I never hold myself to be their example, rather I show them Christ as an example. I never claim to be perfect, but rather am more than willing to admit my many flaws. Being a Christian doesn't make you perfect, and one shouldn't claim this either. If they did, then yes, they would be a hippocrite.

 

[mfrederi]

where's cooldreams in all this? He seems to love these type of conversations. I'm very surprised he hasn't shown up yet....

On a serious note, I think the important thing is to be respectful. If someone is interested and they come out and ask, I will certainly share my faith, but if someone doesn't want anything to do with it, I will be respectful and not push it. It's all about being respectful of what your patients want... IMHO that is

agreed, respect is the key. All you can do is share the Gospel with them, what they do with it is up to them. It is a very personal decision that someone should not be forced or coaxed into. Unfortunately, some people may consider it disrespectful just to mention "Jesus."

 

[BCF81]

And on what ground, other than your faith in after life, do you assume that no-after life outlook is a "horror" to a dying patient? Have you been around enough to talk with some people who just want to be gone, disappear for good, no more life whether it be before or after? To those an atheistic promise of complete end of life is a heavenly hope sweet as honey of king David.

I never said anything about myself having faith in an after life – just that “Oh by the way – I’m pretty sure you’ll cease to exist in a few weeks when you die” is in no way a positive view for a physician to share with a patient.

If that is a comfort to you, than there’s nothing wrong with that. But I imagine you are in a vast minority. I have never spoken with anyone who is joyous in the fact that there is nothing after this life. I have spoken to many atheists who believe there is nothing after this life and just simply accept it as true and go on with their lives. That is their choice but they do not look forward to death by any means (see: their “heavenly hope”). I don’t think even the most devout atheist would object to existing in another, more perfect, dimension - if they so found themselves there one day after this life.

If you did have that “everything is going to be ok” message for the patient - that is worth while to speak of. I just don’t think sharing views of atheism falls into that category with regards to a dying patient. I see nothing wrong with discussing this view in general, BUT a patient can get no inner strength from the idea that they are truly alone in this universe and that their suffering only ends because their consciousness will as well. Why bother to share such a view with them?


A patient can get strength and great comfort from the idea that their suffering will end because their physical body ends- not because their collective consciousness does. That one may be reunited with lost loved ones, and that there are more powerful beings out there than doctors looking out for them – be it a fact or not – is a message of hope and of better things to come. I am not advocating the Christian view by any means or that you must believe a certain way to receive such things- just that their view of hope in another life is mostly posititve. Therefore if your own personal beliefs as a physician might relay a message of hope to a dying patient, it is a good thing to share (not preach). If not, it is not a physicians place to share such a view.

 

[Orth2006]

There is no law or rule that ANY physician has to refer to another physician to perform a service that he does not believe to be in the best interest of the patient. If I don't believe that abortion should be performed then I'm not going to send them to somebody who will do it.

In this case it wasn't a physician but a pharmacist. The lady's doctor had already prescribe the abortion medication she needed. All she had to do was get it from pharmacy. The pharmacist wouldn't dispense it because it was against his belief to commit abortion. It is not his belief that im questioning but his work ethics. He was an employee if the pharmacy store so he should have abided by their code of conduct. And since he could not, he should have had a colleague do it for him. Obviously the pharmacy store had no issues with abortion otherwise they would not have had the drug available. His actions were not in the best interest of his employers. So it made no sense when he sued them after getting fired. It was a typical case when people let their beliefs get in the way of their work ethics.

This always elicits a bajillion responses, but bottom line..........there many many practices and physicians in this country that will refuse to offer somebody abortion services and will NOT refer. They will discuss every other option, but NOT abortion.

There are also many that will listen to the plight of a woman that was RAPED. She deserves justice too.

Just because you become a physician you don't have to stop being a person with beliefs and morals.

Nobody is saying one should stop being a person with morals and beliefs once they are a doctor. But then "morals" and "belief" are very relative terms. People define them in diferent ways. People believe in different things. WHat we are saying is that a doctor should be careful not to allow his/her morals or beliefs to interfere with the practice of medicine. This is obviously a gray area. But if doctors go into the practice with caution on their minds, perhaps it will be easier to decipher when to employ individual beliefs and morals. If a doctor just goes into practice with a sense of absoluteness when it comes to issues like this there will always be controversies.

The pharmacist did the right thing if he does not believe in abortion. If you believe that something equates to murder of an innocent life then how realistic and passionate in your belief would you be if you referred them to someone to carry out that murder?

That argument is bogus!! How many innocent lives have been lost in the Iraq war? We knew there would be casualities or collateral damage as it is more fashionably called, yet we still went to war.

No court and no group can MAKE a physician carry out a procedure that he/she does not wish to perform. A physician has an ethical responsibility to treat all life threatening or potentially life threatening events in a reasonable fashion, but things like abortion are not covered under that umbrella.

Let's not turn this into an abortion debate.

later

No court should force a physican to go against his beliefs - true. But every court will always force a physican to abide by ethical standards.

This is not an abortion debate - it is more about the ethics of medical practice and how religion and individual beliefs can affect it.

 

[sacrament]

intersting that someone who wants to physically assualt people with a bat and dreams of extreme physical violence is telling me that I am the reason why the world sucks. Why does it make you so mad for someone to talk to you about their faith? Do you get this mad whenever anyone has a different opinon than you? If you are a Yankees fan and I am a Sox fan do you still want to attack me with a bat? I think the answer is probably "no," and I am sure since you are in medical school that you have at least some measure of self control in your life. So why is faith such a hot button issue with you? Have I said anything that should truly evoke anybody to violence? I think that the gospel message is in general a message of love, mercy, and sacrifice. Are these qualities offensive? For all those who have inferred that I am self righteous, what are you? Aren't you saying that you have the true answer and have no need to listen to anybody else?

Didn't you answer all these questions yourself, kookball?

When people "witness" it is offensive, it is intrusive, and angers alot of people.

You're goddamn right, it IS offensive, it IS intrusive, and yeah it angers a lot of people. So I agree with you in a very unequivocal manner and suddenly you're like "WHOA WHOA partner, hold on, why all the anger?" Why all the anger?! Because you just admitted that you are offensive and intrusive and that you don't care. If you learned how to fart your gospel message out in baritone, I still wouldn't want to hear it.

There is one primary reason why I'm not a more spiritual man: because of spiritual people. Left to my own devices, locked in a quiet room, who knows what musings might ferment in my brain. But unfortunately I'm out-and-about in the world and have to listen to people like you, and the only thing I can ever think is: "There is no way somebody this bonkers can be right." I really have to wonder how much your incessant propaganda ends up destroying your cause.

So why is faith such a hot button issue with you?

Because I believe that the embrace of religion is the #1 problem in the world today, with respect to social progress and justice. Just as a single example out of many, it's 2005 and we still live in a world where a vast number of people hate gays because of a lunatic collection of fairy-tales. Why am I angry? Because your mental illness is keeping my planet in the dark ages.

 

[12R34Y]

In this case it wasn't a physician but a pharmacist. The lady's doctor had already prescribe the abortion medication she needed. All she had to do was get it from pharmacy. The pharmacist wouldn't dispense it because it was against his belief to commit abortion. It is not his belief that im questioning but his work ethics. He was an employee if the pharmacy store so he should have abided by their code of conduct. And since he could not, he should have had a colleague do it for him. Obviously the pharmacy store had no issues with abortion otherwise they would not have had the drug available. His actions were not in the best interest of his employers. So it made no sense when he sued them after getting fired. It was a typical case when people let their beliefs get in the way of their work ethics.





There are also many that will listen to the plight of a woman that was RAPED. She deserves justice too.



Nobody is saying one should stop being a person with morals and beliefs once they are a doctor. But then "morals" and "belief" are very relative terms. People define them in diferent ways. People believe in different things. WHat we are saying is that a doctor should be careful not to allow his/her morals or beliefs to interfere with the practice of medicine. This is obviously a gray area. But if doctors go into the practice with caution on their minds, perhaps it will be easier to decipher when to employ individual beliefs and morals. If a doctor just goes into practice with a sense of absoluteness when it comes to issues like this there will always be controversies.



That argument is bogus!! How many innocent lives have been lost in the Iraq war? We knew there would be casualities or collateral damage as it is more fashionably called, yet we still went to war.



No court should force a physican to go against his beliefs - true. But every court will always force a physican to abide by ethical standards.

This is not an abortion debate - it is more about the ethics of medical practice and how religion and individual beliefs can affect it.

Again.......no court or any group of people can make a physician perform an act or procedure on a patient. Doctors are NOT obligated to treat every patient regardless of the circumstance.

did you honestly bring up the iraq war? how does this relate to my argument at all? seriously.......you brought nothing to the table there.

as taught in most ethics courses....ethics constantly change. ethics in the 50's were drastically different than now. ethics in the 70's and 80's super different then now......(pharm? get me a ticket to the super bowl ill write for your drug 20 million times a day.....) those days are rapidly coming to an end. However, in the past it was done ALL the time and not viewed as unethical. So, ethics is relative and my beliefs are ABSOLUTE and are not wavering. Nor will they waver under any patient circumstance that may confront me.

later

 

[Orth2006]

Again.......no court or any group of people can make a physician perform an act or procedure on a patient. Doctors are NOT obligated to treat every patient regardless of the circumstance.

did you honestly bring up the iraq war? how does this relate to my argument at all? seriously.......you brought nothing to the table there.

as taught in most ethics courses....ethics constantly change. ethics in the 50's were drastically different than now. ethics in the 70's and 80's super different then now......(pharm? get me a ticket to the super bowl ill write for your drug 20 million times a day.....) those days are rapidly coming to an end. However, in the past it was done ALL the time and not viewed as unethical. So, ethics is relative and my beliefs are ABSOLUTE and are not wavering. Nor will they waver under any patient circumstance that may confront me.

later

The point of the Iraq war was to say that murder is murder. If your argument is that abortion is murder of innocent life- so is war. There is no justification for either but let GOD be the judge instead.

Your beliefs are ABSOLUTE to you and ONLY you. You cannot impose your beliefs on others nor can anyone impose theirs on you.

A doctor/health care professional should recognize differences in beliefs and accept the consequences of sticking to their own. In the case of the pharmacist, he sued the company for firing him. Why? The pharmacy store had every right to fire him because he was not hired for his beliefs but to do a specific job which was to dispense drugs. He did not dispense the drug and so got fired. Why then sue claiming discrimination?

Ethics does change but the fact that there is diversity and differences in beliefs and morals does not.

 

[mfrederi]

Didn't you answer all these questions yourself, kookball?



You're goddamn right, it IS offensive, it IS intrusive, and yeah it angers a lot of people. So I agree with you in a very unequivocal manner and suddenly you're like "WHOA WHOA partner, hold on, why all the anger?" Why all the anger?! Because you just admitted that you are offensive and intrusive and that you don't care. If you learned how to fart your gospel message out in baritone, I still wouldn't want to hear it.

There is one primary reason why I'm not a more spiritual man: because of spiritual people. Left to my own devices, locked in a quiet room, who knows what musings might ferment in my brain. But unfortunately I'm out-and-about in the world and have to listen to people like you, and the only thing I can ever think is: "There is no way somebody this bonkers can be right." I really have to wonder how much your incessant propaganda ends up destroying your cause.



Because I believe that the embrace of religion is the #1 problem in the world today, with respect to social progress and justice. Just as a single example out of many, it's 2005 and we still live in a world where a vast number of people hate gays because of a lunatic collection of fairy-tales. Why am I angry? Because your mental illness is keeping my planet in the dark ages.

Thank you for explaining your detest of religion. Yes, I know it makes people mad, but I wanted to know why it makes you mad. Now I know. It is true that religion is the source of much bitterness and hatred, and has been perverted probably many more times than it has been done right. When you look at the core of the issue, it is perversion of a simple message that causes problems. For clarification's sake, Jesus never said to hate gay people, and people that espouse that belief are perverting God's word. Christ actually said to love one another, not hate gays. It is not just "religious" people that cause problems: Stalin and Kruschev, not such good guys, but they were not religious. Hitler- kinda used religion, but it was paganism mainly so not really. These are 3 of the biggest troublemakers in our century. I encourage you to look into the Gospel message, as opposed to looking at those that claim to enbody it. feel free to PM me if you want to discuss things in a more private manner

 

[gwinegea]

I could say the same thing back to you. Why are you unwilling to listen? What if I am right and you are wrong?

I have listened, and I reject what you and evangelicals have to offer. Do not assume that the battle is just getting someone to listen and that all non-Christians just haven't heard the message. You must also convince them that what you say is right.

What could convince you? For what reason, in your past, did you reject Christ? You are right it is more than listening. It is believing, and believing with your heart, not just your head. And such a belief is one that I cannot help but share. Any questions you have about it, I will try to answer to the best of my ability. I thank you for at least listening to those in the past about Christianity, and I pray you will be open to listening again.