Faith in Medicine

[ks417]

Hello everyone, i'm brand new to the forum as you can see from my post number. I'm obviously a Pre-Med student of some sort and i had a question. Do Osteopathic schools welcome students with a faith based worldview? Not any one denomination just in general? I knew Osteopathic Medicine was about "whole person" care so i was wondering if a connection was to be made?

Thanks for your time.

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[look4wisdom]

I wouldn't think being a person of faith would be seen as a negative. I know that my application contained many faith based experiences and I was accepted at DMU and MSU. One of my interviewers at DMU specifically brought up the subject and gave the chance to demonstrate how my faith has shaped my approach to ethics. And when I had talked to Kathie Schafer the year before applying about improving my app she told me flat out that as an institution MSUCOM views "serving God as a good thing." Hope that helps...

 

[TexasTriathlete]

I'm not sure what this question even means.

If you're asking if you will be discriminated against because of your faith, I would say that there is no way this would happen.

If you're asking if your faith and values might make you look like a potentially more compassionate and less materialistic candidate, I would say that this is a possibility.

If your answer to questions like "what is responsible for creating the proton gradient in the mitochondria?" is "God does it", I would say that you would probably not be exactly what these schools have in mind.

 

[HrvatskiDoktor]

My application also has many faith based experiences and I was accepted at Nova and KCOM. In my interviews, they were not questioned at all. One of my interviewers and I were able to talk quite extensively about experience we have had going to the same country in Africa to serve God!

 

[ks417]

I'm sorry. I reread my post and it wasn't clear at all. My question is this, "Do Osteopathic schools integrate faith (of any sort) into the curriculum?" If so, more than an Allopathic approach?

FYI, i'm not trying to start a DO vs. MD forum lol.


Thank you for your replies so far.

Sidenote- I'm grounded in my faith, and do not intend to use that as an application upper or downer. Just wondering in general..

 

[Jack Daniel]

Still was a very spiritual man and his writings reflect that. Certainly a person of faith is very comfortable with the "body-mind-spirit" aspect of osteopathy. Sometimes I think that completely accepting cranial requires an act of faith.

However, I really don't think osteopathic medicine integrates faith any more than MD schools.

 

[spicedmanna]

I'm sorry. I reread my post and it wasn't clear at all. My question is this, "Do Osteopathic schools integrate faith (of any sort) into the curriculum?" If so, more than an Allopathic approach?

As far as I know: nope and nope.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Yes. Instead of Biochemistry, osteopathic schools teach Biblechemistry.

 

[Jpc984]

I think one of the schools had a class in spirituality and medicine. I don't know which one though.

 

[Cancer Man]

I don't think that it is necessarily a bad thing. As long as you don't dote on your particular faith as superior or anything in your personal statement, it shouldn't be a problem.

Some schools are associated officially or not with faiths. For example, the Touro schools are associated with Jewish Faith and Pikeville is associated with the Presbyterian (I think). KCOM loves Mormons from BYU (#1 or #2 represented undergraduate institution) and Utah State even though it is not associated with any faith.

Faith isn't a bad thing. Just remember that it is unethical to have faith play any role whatsoever in the admissions process.

Also, if I remember correctly, the AOA has mandated that there has to be some sort of "cultural competence." I remember one first year class having a panel that talked about the Amish and the Jehovah's Witnesses. One of the attendings also spoke to us about his experiences interacting with people of great faith.

Sorry, I got kind of rambling there. Hope that sort of addressed your question.

 

[MJB]

The closest thing we've had is a lecture on how to treat Muslim patients.

 

[DiverDoc]

As far as I know: nope and nope.

Well not any specific faith. I think as close as it gets would be KCUMB's "spirituality in medicine" approach that it has received awards for.

 

[Bonsante]

If your answer to questions like "what is responsible for creating the proton gradient in the mitochondria?" is "God does it", I would say that you would probably not be exactly what these schools have in mind.

Hahaha. You crack me up with your reference of the mitochronia.

 

[Porco Rosso]

I am not very religious but the patient may feel entirely different. Religious person may feel that everything has its purpose and god is doing this for some faith based lesson.

what happens when you are trying to comfort a patient like that? I would think that you have to show little bit of your spiritual side to comfort the patient. No?

 

[Jpc984]

Well not any specific faith. I think as close as it gets would be KCUMB's "spirituality in medicine" approach that it has received awards for.

Thanks Diver... that might be the school I was talking about.

 

[reaton]

See Post - Question during interview about religious beliefs - Got ugly.

 

[osli]

KCUMB does have a healthy amount of spirituality in medicine lectures, seminars, small discussion groups, etc. Theses are presented from two perspectives: one being the cultural sensitivity/competency perspective in which students are exposed to some of the various beliefs out there and discuss the ethics behind religious issues such as denying treatment, etc.; the second perspective is about how spirituality (in a very general sense) is important to the physician in keeping himself balanced (i.e., essentially just tending to your own needs and not always only those of your patients) as well as how the physician interacts with members of the spiritual community in caring for patients (e.g., chaplains and others in end-of-life circumstances).

 

[MossPoh]

You'll be hard pressed to find many schools that throw any sort of faith stuff into the curriculum. I'm sure there are the scattered med schools (Loma Linda comes to mind), but overall no...not really. Its ok to be into your faith. Just join groups that focus and emphasize that. The world of medicine is an interesting place...people are either VERY into their faith, or completely indifferent and occasionally show a bit of disdain towards it. Usually best to not spark that side of things within the school walls.

 

[phEight]

The closest thing we've had is a lecture on how to treat Muslim patients.

Eh?

 

[speeter]

My personal statement and EC's have lots of my Christianity weaved into them. MSU didn't seem to mind.

 

[BCLumas]

Yes. Instead of Biochemistry, osteopathic schools teach Biblechemistry.

.. and that is why I added TT as my "idol" on the pre-allo board...

 

[dancer2002]

You'll be hard pressed to find many schools that throw any sort of faith stuff into the curriculum. I'm sure there are the scattered med schools (Loma Linda comes to mind), but overall no...not really. Its ok to be into your faith. Just join groups that focus and emphasize that. The world of medicine is an interesting place...people are either VERY into their faith, or completely indifferent and occasionally show a bit of disdain towards it. Usually best to not spark that side of things within the school walls.

I agree... Its great to be in your OWN faith, but remember that EVERY person has their OWN, so how would a school choose??? Not sure what type of faith the OP is, but I got the impression that they are not asking if other faiths then their own is integrated into education. My religion is one of the largest in the world yet I do not think that schools would incorporate that into education at a medical school. In fact, I would not want it. It is MY faith, very personal I think... not something that needs to be taught to me. Also, I would never expect that exactly what I believe to be the beliefs of ANY of my professors, peers or future patients, so the teaching of any faith, including my own would be very useless for my own use as a future physician. Not sure if this is really a response to anything in this forum, but beyond schools that have a specific religious affiliation, there would be no way for a school to determine which religion they would like to incorporate into teachings.

 

[osli]

That's easy... the one that is true.

 

[dancer2002]

That's easy... the one that is true.

Wow! I'm not going to get into a discussion about this, but I have a feeling that whatever is true would teach respect for everyone's beliefs. That being said, it is not up to a medical school to instill any opinions or beliefs nor is it beneficial because as a physician you need to treat and respect every patient's own beliefs as well. It is very simple to go through school and a career staying true to your own beliefs while respecting those of others... regardless of what is "true" in one's mind, I think the only truth in this world includes the fact that everyone is uniquely made and can think very differently. I have my own beliefs that are grounded in a religion that I think you would consider as "true", but I absolutely cringe when others with my same beliefs make us all look so badly by discounting the fact that others have their own beliefs and attempting to change people's minds. I would not want others to put their beliefs on me, so I would never want to do that to them....

 

[zmeister22]

I'm not sure what this question even means.

If your answer to questions like "what is responsible for creating the proton gradient in the mitochondria?" is "God does it", I would say that you would probably not be exactly what these schools have in mind.

This is why I heart TexasTriathlete.

 

[nascardoc]

Eh?

What MJB was saying is that DCOM has cultural diversity classes and one of the classes was how to treat the Muslim patient, in terms of respecting their faith and honoring their lifestyle. I am a Christian and I know of the Muslim faith, but not the details, so being taught those, and how to apply it in the medical world, is a very valuable tool for myself, personally and professionally.

I definitely think faith has its place in medicine. There are times when patients need that type of comfort, and there are times doctors, nurses, techs, etc. need that help too. I don't think a faith should be forced on people, but it should be respected, just as the oppostie should too.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

In the trauma center where I volunteer, we get patients all the time that we can't give blood to because they're Jehova's Witnesses. Situations like this piss me off.

 

[mitawa]

Hello everyone, i'm brand new to the forum as you can see from my post number. I'm obviously a Pre-Med student of some sort and i had a question. Do Osteopathic schools welcome students with a faith based worldview? Not any one denomination just in general? I knew Osteopathic Medicine was about "whole person" care so i was wondering if a connection was to be made?

Thanks for your time.

At PCOM we have organizations on campus that are geared towards certain faiths and/or cultures, but we welcome everyone. We've have numerous lectures and panel discussions on the topic of cultural competency and how it plays an integral role in how patients respond to treatment. Mind-Body-Spirit. Its important to acknowledge others beliefs even if you don't necessarily share them, and this is a notion that is emphasized at our school.

 

[dancer2002]

At PCOM we have organizations on campus that are geared towards certain faiths and/or cultures, but we welcome everyone. We've have numerous lectures and panel discussions on the topic of cultural competency and how it plays an integral role in how patients respond to treatment. Mind-Body-Spirit. Its important to acknowledge others beliefs even if you don't necessarily share them, and this is a notion that is emphasized at our school.

awesome!!! that is EXACTLY how it should be!

 

[Jack Daniel]

In the trauma center where I volunteer, we get patients all the time that we can't give blood to because they're Jehova's Witnesses. Situations like this piss me off.

Sarcastic or not...I can't tell.

We're often more accepting of a woman not wanting to terminate a dangerous pregnancy, or someone not wanting chemo because they want to live their last 8 mos in relative comfort. Whether it's religious conviction or personal choice, why would it piss you off?

 

[AIF]

Women don't want to terminate a dangerous pregnancy because they are genetically programmed to protect their unborn child.

People refuse chemo because they are terminally ill and the treatment is not expected to extend their life.

Neither of these choices force a physician to do something against their Hippocratic oath due to their patient's irrational beliefs. Survival is a rational instinct, refusing a life saving treatment is illogical and therefore frustrating.

Case in point: a young mother in Britain recently died because she was a Jehova's witness and slipped into a coma after giving birth to twins due to blood loss. Her husband, who ultimately had to make the decision, refused treatment on the basis that his wife would rather die than go against her beliefs. To a non-religious person it seemed like he was saying she'd rather her newborn children grow up without a mother than piss off a God that may, or may not, exist. I imagine her physicians were absolutely distraught as they watched her bleed to death.

 

[osli]

Wow! I'm not going to get into a discussion about this...

Sarcasm is best served dry.

 

[t-funk]

Sarcasm is best served dry.

I knew you were joking and I got a good chuckle out of your statement.

 

[dancer2002]

Sarcasm is best served dry.

Sorry! Glad you were joking.... I went to high school and have some close friends that would not be joking about that.... drives me crazy!!!

 

[phEight]

What MJB was saying is that DCOM has cultural diversity classes and one of the classes was how to treat the Muslim patient, in terms of respecting their faith and honoring their lifestyle. I am a Christian and I know of the Muslim faith, but not the details, so being taught those, and how to apply it in the medical world, is a very valuable tool for myself, personally and professionally.

I definitely think faith has its place in medicine. There are times when patients need that type of comfort, and there are times doctors, nurses, techs, etc. need that help too. I don't think a faith should be forced on people, but it should be respected, just as the oppostie should too.

Thanks for the response, I was curious about what it is they teach about Muslim people and how to specifically treat them in comparison to say, your average Jewish or Christian that were to come in. Just curious is all.

 

[scpod]

We also take a class on Spirituality and Ethics. We studied a number of religions (Christian Science, Islam, Jehova's Witness, Judaism, Roman Catholic, United Methodist, etc.) and examined a number of questions. What do they believe about family, adoption, sexuality (contraception, artificial insemination or sterilization), procreation? What about Genetics and organ/tissue donation? What are their beliefs on mental health, medical experimentation, death and dying? All of those are very important topics and will vary greatly based on religion. So, how could religious beliefs not be an importnant med school topic?

 

[Lokhtar]

Sometimes I think that completely accepting cranial requires an act of faith.

Do they still teach cranial? I thought it was shown to be BS?

 

[dancer2002]

We also take a class on Spirituality and Ethics. We studied a number of religions (Christian Science, Islam, Jehova's Witness, Judaism, Roman Catholic, United Methodist, etc.) and examined a number of questions. What do they believe about family, adoption, sexuality (contraception, artificial insemination or sterilization), procreation? What about Genetics and organ/tissue donation? What are their beliefs on mental health, medical experimentation, death and dying? All of those are very important topics and will vary greatly based on religion. So, how could religious beliefs not be an importnant med school topic?

Oh, I think religion is a VERY important topic.... it is important to recognize them ALL... not just focus on incorporating one belief system into the school, because it would be useless for a physician to have all that stuff about adoption, sexuality, organ/tissue donation etc from only one viewpoint. It is not likely that every patient will have those same views... That is exactly what I was pointing out before, thank you for articulating it better for me!

 

[DocRawk]

Sarcastic or not...I can't tell.

We're often more accepting of a woman not wanting to terminate a dangerous pregnancy, or someone not wanting chemo because they want to live their last 8 mos in relative comfort. Whether it's religious conviction or personal choice, why would it piss you off?

Meh...seems that one situation is based on logic, while the other mysticism. I'd choose a comfy 8 months over chemo with a poor prognosis. Dangerous pregnancy has to do with your opinion on when life begins and who's life you place higher priority on. If it's the delivery that will kill you, but the baby is likely to survive, then it's entirely up to you on who's life you place more value on. Refusing a blood transfusion in a situation where you will die without it based on a religion that goes door to door annoying people is another thing entirely. The first two decisions are logical, and you can, as a physician, help them to reach their desired goal, whether it be healthy delivery of their baby or a comfortable last 8 months. You are powerless in the face of the other.

 

[RySerr21]

Oh, I think religion is a VERY important topic.... it is important to recognize them ALL... not just focus on incorporating one belief system into the school, because it would be useless for a physician to have all that stuff about adoption, sexuality, organ/tissue donation etc from only one viewpoint. It is not likely that every patient will have those same views... That is exactly what I was pointing out before, thank you for articulating it better for me!

what about lack of religion? lack of faith? what about athiesm? from both the patient and/or the physicians perspective. in a thread talking about the practice of faith/religion in a medical setting, i find it interesting it never came up. i'm sure some people even think being an atheist is "unethical" in itself. theres probably a thread about this already somehwere, oh well.

 

[dancer2002]

what about lack of religion? lack of faith? what about athiesm? from both the patient and/or the physicians perspective. in a thread talking about the practice of faith/religion in a medical setting, i find it interesting it never came up. i'm sure some people even think being an atheist is "unethical" in itself. theres probably a thread about this already somehwere, oh well.

I am not completely sure what you are asking here, but athiesm is a belief in itself and should be taken into account by a physician if they are treating a patient in which their athiest beliefs would interfere or direct a treatment option. Otherwise, it shouldn't really be an issue. The same with an athiest physician... if they are treating a patient with certain religious beliefs, those of the patient should be considered when treating. Beliefs are beliefs and all are valid and should be respected.

 

[RySerr21]

Beliefs are beliefs and all are valid and should be respected.

i agree that they should be. i think its very clear that they aren't by lots of people though.

athiesm is a belief in itself and should be taken into account by a physician if they are treating a patient in which their athiest beliefs would interfere or direct a treatment option. .

how would being an athiest interfere or direct a tretament option?

 

[dancer2002]

i agree that they should be. i think its very clear that they aren't by lots of people though.



how would being an athiest interfere or direct a tretament option?

I don't necessarily think it would... thats why I said that "otherwise, it shouldn't be an issue". Because I doubt it would affect any doctor/patient relationship, so it shouldn't even be an issue. In the cases in which beliefs DO affect the doctor/patient relationship, then I feel as though all beliefs, regardless of what the the physician believes should be respected and treatment should be determined accordingly.

 

[RySerr21]

I don't necessarily think it would... thats why I said that "otherwise, it shouldn't be an issue". Because I doubt it would affect any doctor/patient relationship, so it shouldn't even be an issue. In the cases in which beliefs DO affect the doctor/patient relationship, then I feel as though all beliefs, regardless of what the the physician believes should be respected and treatment should be determined accordingly.

fair enough. i completely agree. its just unfortunate to konw that not all people feel that way. but thats something thats i dont believe will/can ever be fixed.

 

[dancer2002]

fair enough. i completely agree. its just unfortunate to konw that not all people feel that way. but thats something thats i dont believe will/can ever be fixed.

I know! I think its sad that it won't be fixed... its even worse that the people that I have found who are not respectful of others beliefs, and rather intrusive with their own usually have beliefs that teach compassion and understanding. Doesn't seem to make sense to me ever when I see/hear it?

 

[FinchHead]

I think faith has no place in medicine. If a patient wants to have some sort of faith, then thats fine, especially if it calms them down or something.

As for faith intervening in treatment of patients (Jehovas refusing blood), then I don't care one bit, unless they are trying to force that belief on a child. If a child is going to die because of their parents belief that they can not transfer blood, then just push the ignorant parents out of the way and save the child, he can't be expected to know any better.

I feel as though all beliefs, regardless of what the the physician believes should be respected and treatment should be determined accordingly

I'm not bashing religion or anything, but the idea that ALL beliefs should be respected is silly. Some beliefs are stupid and dangerous, to the person themselves (which is fine), and the people around them (not alright).

Also, I'm not just pulling these scenarios out of my ass, here is what I was thinking of specifically:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313683,00.html

Hope I don't sound too brash.

 

[RySerr21]

I think faith has no place in medicine. If a patient wants to have some sort of faith, then thats fine, especially if it calms them down or something.

if having faith calms the person down, gives them hope, makes them happier, whatever... then it very well does have a place in medicine.

If a child is going to die because of their parents belief that they can not transfer blood, then just push the ignorant parents out of the way and save the child, he can't be expected to know any better.

whats the law on that type of stuff. you technically can't do a procedure w/o consent from the parents or a court order... can you?

 

[FinchHead]

if having faith calms the person down, gives them hope, makes them happier, whatever... then it very well does have a place in medicine.

Here is an article about a study that actually says people who are prayered for do WORSE. Kind of funny.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

whats the law on that type of stuff. you technically can't do a procedure w/o consent from the parents or a court order... can you?

Nah I don't think you can. I'm pretty sure the law is complicated, and there are scenarios where you can use your judgement on what to do, but to be honest I'm not totally sure about the law. What I was saying, is that pushing aside the parents would be the right thing to do, legal or not.

 

[RySerr21]

Here is an article about a study that actually says people who are prayered for do WORSE. Kind of funny.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

i read richard dawkins' book "the god delusion." in it he talked about "the great prayer experiment" i'm pretty sure its the same study you are talking about (havent read the link yet). they found that the people that were prayed for actually did worse!!! the theologists had some bogus explanation like "god doesnt answer prayers if he knows they aren't genuine. he (she?) knew it was for an experiment so he chose not to answer them" Greaaaaaaaaaat so God chose for certain people to die because they were randomly assigned to a control group? this is a different topic all together though....

What I was saying, is that pushing aside the parents would be the right thing to do, legal or not.

you can argue that dr. kevorkian (sp?) was "doing the right thing" but in the end its all about the law my friend.