family practice doctor 500K+ in debt.....

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http://finance.yahoo.com/college-ed...dent-loan-burden?mod=edu-continuing_education

When Michelle Bisutti, a 41-year-old family practitioner in Columbus, Ohio, finished medical school in 2003, her student-loan debt amounted to roughly $250,000. Since then, it has ballooned to $555,000.
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Andrew Spear for The Wall Street Journal Michelle Bisutti borrowed $250,000 to pay for medical school. The debt has since ballooned to $555,000. It is the result of her deferring loan payments while she completed her residency, default charges and relentlessly compounding interest rates. Among the charges: a single $53,870 fee for when her loan was turned over to a collection agency.
"Maybe half of it was my fault because I didn't look at the fine print," Dr. Bisutti says. "But this is just outrageous now."
To be sure, Dr. Bisutti's case is extreme, and lenders say student-loan terms are clear and that they try to work with borrowers who get in trouble.
But as tuitions rise, many people are borrowing heavily to pay their bills. Some no doubt view it as "good debt," because an education can lead to a higher salary. But in practice, student loans are one of the most toxic debts, requiring extreme consumer caution and, as Dr. Bisutti learned, responsibility.
Unlike other kinds of debt, student loans can be particularly hard to wriggle out of. Homeowners who can't make their mortgage payments can hand over the keys to their house to their lender. Credit-card and even gambling debts can be discharged in bankruptcy. But ditching a student loan is virtually impossible, especially once a collection agency gets involved. Although lenders may trim payments, getting fees or principals waived seldom happens.
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The Price of Safety Just Went Up Yet many former students are trying. There is an estimated $730 billion in outstanding federal and private student-loan debt, says Mark Kantrowitz of FinAid.org, a Web site that tracks financial-aid issues -- and only 40% of that debt is actively being repaid. The rest is in default, or in deferment, which means that payments and interest are halted, or in "forbearance," which means payments are halted while interest accrues.
Although Dr. Bisutti's debt load is unusual, her experience having problems repaying isn't. Emmanuel Tellez's mother is a laid-off factory worker, and $120 from her $300 unemployment checks is garnished to pay the federal PLUS student loan she took out for her son.
By the time Mr. Tellez graduated in 2008, he had $50,000 of his own debt in loans issued by SLM Corp., known as Sallie Mae, the largest private student lender. In December, he was laid off from his $29,000-a-year job in Boston and defaulted. Mr. Tellez says that when he signed up, the loan wasn't explained to him well, though he concedes he missed the fine print.
Loan terms, including interest rates, are disclosed "multiple times and in multiple ways," says Martha Holler, a spokeswoman for Sallie Mae, who says the company can't comment on individual accounts. Repayment tools and account information are accessible on Sallie Mae's Web site as well, she says.
Many borrowers say they are experiencing difficulties working out repayment and modification terms on their loans. Ms. Holler says that Sallie Mae works with borrowers individually to revamp loans. Although the U.S. Department of Education has expanded programs like income-based repayment, which effectively caps repayments for some borrowers, others might not qualify.
Heather Ehmke of Oakland, Calif., renegotiated the terms of her subprime mortgage after her home was foreclosed. But even after filing for bankruptcy, she says she couldn't get Sallie Mae, one of her lenders, to adjust the terms on her student loan. After 14 years with patches of deferment and forbearance, the loan has increased from $28,000 to more than $90,000. Her monthly payments jumped from $230 to $816. Last month, her petition for undue hardship on the loans was dismissed.
Sallie Mae supports reforms that would allow student loans to be dischargeable in bankruptcy for those who have made a good-faith effort to repay them, says Ms. Holler.
Dr. Bisutti says she loves her work, but regrets taking out so many student loans. She admits that she made mistakes in missing payments, deferring her loans and not being completely thorough with some of the paperwork, but was surprised at how quickly the debt spiraled.
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Visit the College & Education Center She says she knew when she started medical school in 1999 that she would have to borrow heavily. But she reasoned that her future income as a doctor would make paying off the loans easy. While in school, her loans racked up interest with variable rates ranging from 3% to 11%.
She maxed out on federal loans, borrowing $152,000 over four years, and sought private loans from Sallie Mae to help make up the difference. She also took out two loans from Wells Fargo & Co. for $20,000 each. Each had a $2,000 origination fee. The total amount she borrowed at the time: $250,000.
In 2005, the bill for the Wells Fargo loans came due. Representatives from the bank called her father, Michael Bisutti, every day for two months demanding payment. Mr. Bisutti, who had co-signed on the loans, finally decided to cover the $550 monthly payments for a year.
Wells Fargo says it will stop calling consumers if they request it, says senior vice president Glen Herrick, who adds that the bank no longer imposes origination fees on its private loans.
Sallie Mae, meanwhile, called Mr. Bisutti's neighbor. The neighbor told Mr. Bisutti about the call. "Now they know [my dad's] daughter the doctor defaulted on her loans," Dr. Bisutti says.
Ms. Holler, the Sallie Mae spokeswoman, says that the company may contact a neighbor to verify an individual's address. But in those cases, she says, the details of the debt obligation aren't discussed.
Dr. Bisutti declined to authorize Sallie Mae to comment specifically on her case. "The overwhelming majority of medical-school graduates successfully repay their student loans," Ms. Holler says.
After completing her fellowship in 2007, Dr. Bisutti juggled other debts, including her credit-card balance, and was having trouble making her $1,000-a-month student-loan payments. That year, she defaulted on both her federal and private loans. That is when the "collection cost" fee of $53,870 was added on to her private loan.
Meanwhile, the variable interest rates continue to compound on her balance and fees. She recently applied for income-based repayment, but she still isn't sure if she will qualify. She makes $550-a-month payments to Wells Fargo for the two loans she hasn't defaulted on. By the time she is done, she will have paid the bank $128,000 -- over three times the $36,000 she received.
She recently entered a rehabilitation agreement on her defaulted federal loans, which now carry an additional $31,942 collection cost. She makes monthly payments on those loans -- now $209,399 -- for $990 a month, with only $100 of it going toward her original balance. The entire balance of her federal loans will be paid off in 351 months. Dr. Bisutti will be 70 years old.
The debt load keeps her up at night. Her damaged credit has prevented her from buying a home or a new car. She says she and her boyfriend of three years have put off marriage and having children because of the debt.
Dr. Bisutti told her 17-year-old niece the story of her debt as a cautionary tale "so the next generation of kids who want to get a higher education knows what they're getting into," she says. "I will likely have to deal with this debt for the rest of my life."

ridic!

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Eeekkk! I remember my exit loan counseling from undergrad. "Above all," the wrinkly financial aid lady said, "DO NOT DEFAULT on loans." Its bad news bears.

Educate yourself now people. My parents cosigned my students loans in undergrad and I didn't know a single thing about then. Sallie Mae and I are like this :xf: now.
 

Totally sick of lay articles that make no sense but people eat up without really thinking about it (i.e. "Female Doctors Causing Physician Shortage By Working Fewer Hours", "Scientists In The 1970s Warned of Global Cooling", etc.)

She's an FP doc who completed a fellowship? In what?

Did GradPlus loans exist in 1999? Why did she take out private loans with high interest rates?

Why the credit card debt? Was she using them in residency, too?

Her student loan payments were only $1000 a month and she still couldn't pay them? Note that when people talk about the "low" salaries doctors make post-tax, they include student loans BEFORE the end salaries are quoted. We're talking about someone whose income before student loans are subtracted is supposedly too low to make those payments at all. So this woman, probably making around ~150k before tax, can't pay $1000 a month in student loans?
 
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It sounds like she was a little careless with her loans. What would make her DEFER loan payments?

A little financial literacy goes a long way. I'm going to have to learn more about this student loan process
 
I'm not buying it.
I am because I know a few docs in the same position.

I know one doc who has paid nearly 50 payments of $1000 and his loan debt has decreased from ~155K to ~148k.

Its reality. and more common than you think. You'll learn soon enough because you'll either be one of these docs or you will be working with one of these docs.

Its sad. Fam docs have is bad, bad, bad. But I don't expect any respect for them around SDN because the only time they get ANY respect around here is when nurse pracs are being slammed in favor of FPs. :rolleyes:

and while were at it...everyone should google Steven Hill.
 
considering her age she was probably a non-trad, and had a lot of loans/responsibilities before she even started medical school. I don't think a traditional student would find themselves in a similar situation, unless they did horrible financial planning; someone with limited responsibility and ~$120k annual income should easily be able to make a $1000 loan payment each month.
 
"She maxed out on federal loans, borrowing $152,000 over four years, and sought private loans from Sallie Mae to help make up the difference."

-i'm a little confused by this. i probably haven't paid good enough attention during those financial aid presentations, but i thought most medical schools will find a way to loan you enough to cover cost of attendance and living costs without having to take out private loans. i know only a little portion of that will be subsidized stafford loans, but i thought that private loans are really only necessary if you are buying a car or have some type of huge expense or something like that
 
I am because I know a few docs in the same position.

I know one doc who has paid nearly 50 payments of $1000 and his loan debt has decreased from ~155K to ~148k.

Its reality. and more common than you think. You'll learn soon enough because you'll either be one of these docs or you will be working with one of these docs.

Its sad. Fam docs have is bad, bad, bad. But I don't expect any respect for them around SDN because the only time they get ANY respect around here is when nurse pracs are being slammed in favor of FPs. :rolleyes:

and while were at it...everyone should google Steven Hill.

Pay more than $1k a month and interest won't catch up to you like that. With 155k debt you should be paying 1.5k a month. I'm confused as to how he got into that situation; are his loans longer than a 10 year term? Did he not realize that the interest would go crazy? Private or federal loans?

I think a lot of people sympathize with the plight of FPs, but I don't sympathize with the people who have terrible money management skills.
 
Don't care if she didn't read the fine print, don't care if she made the wrong moves, borrowed from the wrong people, etc, this makes me sick.
 
Pay more than $1k a month and interest won't catch up to you like that. With 155k debt you should be paying 1.5k a month. I'm confused as to how he got into that situation; are his loans longer than a 10 year term? Did he not realize that the interest would go crazy? Private or federal loans?

I think a lot of people sympathize with the plight of FPs, but I don't sympathize with the people who have terrible money management skills.[/QUOTE]


Oh yeah. Extremely poor money management skills. Contrary to popular sentiments, ignoring your debt will not make it go away
 
You guys do realize that she graduated from a Carribbean medical school right?

If not, just run a check on her name through the medical licensing database. AUC graduate of 2003:thumbup:

What has that to do with anything??? Many US schools have CoA of 60-90k now (ex: http://www.tufts.edu/med/docs/about/offices/finaid/CostsMD.pdf).

Basically she did make a few mistakes in regards to defaulting on her laons, but still, that is a lot of loans. I'm cringing at $100k worth of loans...can't imagine $200, or even 400k....
 
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What has that to do with anything??? Many US schools have CoA of 60-90k now (ex: http://www.tufts.edu/med/docs/about/offices/finaid/CostsMD.pdf).

...

Students at *most* Caribbean schools are not eligible for U.S. financial aid (government loans, specifically). This doctor probably went all-out on private loans; combine that with poor money management that is all too common among many medical students, and you have the recipe for disaster.

Not to mention that doctors with poor financial management skills are probably just as complacent when it comes to medical billing and receivables from insurance companies.
 
I don't think a traditional student would find themselves in a similar situation
you have much to learn, grasshopper.
I think a lot of people sympathize with the plight of FPs, but I don't sympathize with the people who have terrible money management skills.
so you're assuming that all FPs with high debt have terrible money management skills? you too, grasshopper, have much to learn.

go ask your local FP. they'll set you straight. ;)
Don't care if she didn't read the fine print, don't care if she made the wrong moves, borrowed from the wrong people, etc, this makes me sick.
well said JP. :thumbup:

and just for the record, the doc I speak of did not graduate from a Caribbean school but rather a US allopathic school and his payments are scheduled until he is 70+ as well. they (docs with debt) are all over the place....perhaps you all should be asking more questions while shadowing instead of just standing in the corner :laugh:
 
Stories like this keep coming up and I agree that America's physicians should recieve a lot of help seeing as how we're dedicating our lives to service but doctors are smart people, they should make better decisions.

How much sense does it make to take out a loan to pay for another loan? I don't understand that.

Now I have a plan and I want everyone to tell me what they think. I am probably about 30-35 thousand dollars in debt just after undergrad. Fortunately, I'll be going to medical school in Texas where the tuition here is the lowest in the nation but I still will be approximately 140-150 thousand dollars in debt when I graduate. Now, I'm most interested in surgery but I think this idea would work for any specialty, even a PCP.

We all know how cheap residents live due to the fact that they are making a little over 40,000 a year. Let's say that right when you finish residency you hold off on buying that huge house or nice car but for one extra year, or maybe just 6 months of that year, you allow yourself to live like a resident a little longer. This way you can really knock down your debt before things get out of hand.

Think about it, if a PCP will make about $150,000 their first year and they used to make $45,000, that'll leave about $105,000 they can donate to loans, or maybe even more! What do you guys think?
 
considering her age she was probably a non-trad, and had a lot of loans/responsibilities before she even started medical school. I don't think a traditional student would find themselves in a similar situation, unless they did horrible financial planning; someone with limited responsibility and ~$120k annual income should easily be able to make a $1000 loan payment each month.

Being a non-trad isn't an excuse. Provided I'm accepted, I should get out of med school with no loans, only because I am a non-trad and had a chance to go out and establish myself.
 
This is one of the only arguments you could ever make for taking a military scholarship ;p
 
so you're assuming that all FPs with high debt have terrible money management skills? you too, grasshopper, have much to learn.

go ask your local FP. they'll set you straight.
Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Might want to burnish those reading comprehension skills...honey.


Think about it, if a PCP will make about $150,000 their first year and they used to make $45,000, that'll leave about $105,000 they can donate to loans, or maybe even more! What do you guys think?
When most people receive a significant raise they go crazy with it. This is especially true of people who have just been released from school for the first time in 12 years. If you have a lot of willpower and no preconceptions about how a doctor is "supposed" to live, it's very feasible to live like a resident for a few years post-residency. Remember that you'll be paying more tax and you'll probably be paying about 30k a year in loan payments before whatever lump sum payments you pump into them, just to keep your credit rating golden. 150k a year will be reduced to about 110k, minus 30k student loans, minus 40k to live on...you could still pay another 20-30k into your loans on top of that, but it'll be a bit tight.

If you're willing to live AND work like a resident - AKA 80+ hour workweeks - you'll make more money. Ditto for going into something other than primary care. You can get into hospitalist or EM work, pick up a few extra shifts a month, and make bank.
 
Think about it, if a PCP will make about $150,000 their first year and they used to make $45,000, that'll leave about $105,000 they can donate to loans, or maybe even more! What do you guys think?

That $150,000 turns into about $90,000 after taxes.
 
Oh yeah. Extremely poor money management skills. Contrary to popular sentiments, ignoring your debt will not make it go away

exactly . . . it would be one thing if she couldn't pay, tried to get help and work something out, etc. and they refused. but it sounds like she just plain didn't pay them. duh! you borrow money, you gotta pay it back. :rolleyes: also, the monthly payments were only $550? I could pay that with the money I make babysitting. What is a post-fellowship doctor DOING with her salary if not paying back the loans??

this story seems silly. besides, if things don't change, its only a matter of time before 500K+ in med school debt becomes the norm. then people will look back and laugh at this story.
 
It sucks to be her, but that's where my sympathy ends. She had horrible financial planning. At the least she could have hired a planner to help her. Or, to save money, she could have paid on time. I'll play my violin for her.
 
Being a non-trad isn't an excuse. Provided I'm accepted, I should get out of med school with no loans, only because I am a non-trad and had a chance to go out and establish myself.

Well a non-trad might have children/family responsibilities that most traditional students wouldn't have.....

you have much to learn, grasshopper.
I guess I do.... I don't understand how someone making ~$120k+ a year with limited responsibilities can't afford at least $1000 a month for student loan repayments that should be a top priority.
 
Well a non-trad might have children/family responsibilities that most traditional students wouldn't have.....


I guess I do.... I don't understand how someone making ~$120k+ a year with limited responsibilities can't afford at least $1000 a month for student loan repayments that should be a top priority.

Agreed...if she lived on her residency salary for 3 more years....poof the loans are gone. But the American idea is borrow till no one will lend you anymore money and then find someone who will.......
 
Well a non-trad might have children/family responsibilities that most traditional students wouldn't have.....


I guess I do.... I don't understand how someone making ~$120k+ a year with limited responsibilities can't afford at least $1000 a month for student loan repayments that should be a top priority.

This non-trad doesn't seem to have kids, isn't married (apparently she can't get married until her debt is paid, which is probably code for her boyfriend being a much smarter person and not wanting to mix his credit with her's...) and can't buy a house or a car. So no mortgage and no car payment, although she probably has a junker and pays $100 a month in insurance.

There are plenty of rentals that pay most/all utilities, so she might not have any of those payments either.

I have a sneaking suspicion this lady took the first residency that would accept her and isn't actually working as an FP because she didn't really want the job to begin with, she just wanted a toehold in the American MD profession. It's the only thing that could explain being THAT destitute.
 
Well a non-trad might have children/family responsibilities that most traditional students wouldn't have.....

You mean like a 6 and 7 year old, a wife and home? Got 'em all, still not an excuse.
 
I don't understand how someone making ~$120k+ a year with limited responsibilities can't afford at least $1000 a month for student loan repayments that should be a top priority.
he is paying 1k a month. just a little over actually. he's a non trad, but only by two years. he'll be paying a little over 1K a month until he is 73. He made payments (though maybe not 1K) through residency. he basically has a mortgage payment on a 250K house and a car payment on a 2009 honda accord hybrid. no wife, no kids. he's responsible. he has a little money saved up in the bank. but nothing extravagant.

Its really not that uncommon to have 100-200Kdebt after school. Some specialites just dont make extravegant salaries. Assuming you'll make 150K has a FP right out of residancy is ambitious. And considering the types of graduates that are going into FP now because of all the politics, this story is just no that far fetched. Even for US grads.

Being a doctor does not automatically make you a good financial planner. Being a family physician (or certain other specialty) with high debt and decades of years of 1K+ payments does not automatically make you a bad financial planner.
 
Yeah, non-trad is no excuse. In fact I would think nontrads are wiser about this sort of stuff. Like an idiot, I charged up a lot of credit cards in undergrad thinking it would be no problem to pay them back once I graduated and got a job. now four years later i am scrambling to finish paying them off before I begin med school in the fall. I've already made my dumb mistakes and i will not be making them again. i've learned my lesson. i'm much more responsible now than i was then. and you can bet i am going to pay off my loans as fast as humanly possible before i go buying a single thing I don't need.

in a way this story actually makes me feel better. if the person who makes the worst decisions possible is only 500K in debt, hopefully i can come in somewhere under that mark :rolleyes:
 
he is paying 1k a month. just a little over actually. he's a non trad, but only by two years. he'll be paying a little over 1K a month until he is 73. He made payments (though maybe not 1K) through residency. he basically has a mortgage payment on a 250K house and a car payment on a 2009 honda accord hybrid. no wife, no kids. he's responsible. he has a little money saved up in the bank. but nothing extravagant.

Its really not that uncommon to have 100-200Kdebt after school. Some specialites just dont make extravegant salaries. Assuming you'll make 150K has a FP right out of residancy is ambitious. And considering the types of graduates that are going into FP now because of all the politics, this story is just no that far fetched. Even for US grads.

Being a doctor does not automatically make you a good financial planner. Being a family physician (or certain other specialty) with high debt and decades of years of 1K+ payments does not automatically make you a bad financial planner.

why would someone buy a 250k house and a new car, when they're 100-200k in debt? If someone can survive 3-6 years on a residency salary, why can't they survive another ~2 years to pay off loans? That's what I don't understand, it's like there's a compulsive spending switch that goes off upon residency graduation.
 
This non-trad doesn't seem to have kids, isn't married (apparently she can't get married until her debt is paid, which is probably code for her boyfriend being a much smarter person and not wanting to mix his credit with her's...) and can't buy a house or a car. So no mortgage and no car payment, although she probably has a junker and pays $100 a month in insurance.

There are plenty of rentals that pay most/all utilities, so she might not have any of those payments either.

I have a sneaking suspicion this lady took the first residency that would accept her and isn't actually working as an FP because she didn't really want the job to begin with, she just wanted a toehold in the American MD profession. It's the only thing that could explain being THAT destitute.

I wouldn't want to tap that either. She's the definition of toxic asset

I have a nagging suspicion that it took her several years to match, and that she lived on loans during that time. Also, can someone check to see if she's licensed or not. There's something that doesn't add up with her story. If she really is working as an FP, even if she gets paid only $120k, it should be relatively easy for her to pay off her loans in 10 years if she did nothing but live like a resident and share the cost with her boyfriend.
 
why would someone buy a 250k house and a new car, when they're 100-200k in debt? If someone can survive 3-6 years on a residency salary, why can't they survive another ~2 years to pay off loans? That's what I don't understand, it's like there's a compulsive spending switch that goes off upon residency graduation.

Because living on $50k/year gets really old, really fast when you're 35 years old, out of school for the first time in over 2 decades, and regularly working 60+ hours a week.
 
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That $150,000 turns into about $90,000 after taxes.

And she should be able to spare 14% of that to pay off her loans. She should still be able to live off $6500 a month.

She has horrible, horrible money management skills. Credit card debt? Are you serious? That's easily 20% interest.
 
why would someone buy a 250k house and a new car, when they're 100-200k in debt? If someone can survive 3-6 years on a residency salary, why can't they survive another ~2 years to pay off loans? That's what I don't understand, it's like there's a compulsive spending switch that goes off upon residency graduation.
250K is actually pretty decent for a smaller, reliable house. And I suppose he needed a reliable car as he lives ~40 minutes from where he works (living any closer would be quite a bit more expensive). He chooses to work where he is now as it was his most competitive offer.
But he still falls short of the 150K that's being thrown around.

I think this might be a little bit beyond your imagination so I guess you'll just have to come back and report after you graduate. But its cute that you think all graduates can pay back 200K worth of debt in 2 years. :laugh:
 
This article is going over many heads and the point is missed. It doesn't matter how she got in debt. All that matters is that thousands of medschool graduates every year finish their residency with similar or higher debt and have to deal with it. The point here is that if you want to go into family medicine and similar specialties (or you are forced into it because there are more medical schools and less residency spots every year) and you paid over $200K-300K for your medschool+undergrad (which could double after years of compound interest), you might have a huge problem, especially if you are unwilling to live like a "poor" person even after you become a doctor. So how many here were actually planning to live like that? Or how many here applied to medical schools based on every factor under the sun except the annual tuition? The bottom line here is that financially you might not be able to afford certain medical schools and that is becoming truer with every year.

Also get some perspective from the same thread in the Residency forum: Family Practice Doc crushed with $555K Student Loan Burden. Try to forget how she amassed that debt and concentrate on why she can't pay it off and whether you are going to be that much different.
 
I think this might be a little bit beyond your imagination so I guess you'll just have to come back and report after you graduate. But its cute that you think all graduates can pay back 200K worth of debt in 2 years. :laugh:

. . . said the condescending premed?? :confused:

Just because you shadowed a nontrad doctor doesn't mean that you have it all figured out either. I don't think it will be easy to pay back my loans, nor do I think I can do it in two years. But like I said, it's a no-brainer to make loan repayment a priority before you go spending more than you NEED TO on other things. A new car and a 250k house? How about a used car and a 125K condo? How about an apartment and taking the subway? it's all about personal responsibility. and although everyone's individual situation is different, personal responsibility and a little self control is magical for everybody.
 
why would someone buy a 250k house and a new car, when they're 100-200k in debt? If someone can survive 3-6 years on a residency salary, why can't they survive another ~2 years to pay off loans? That's what I don't understand, it's like there's a compulsive spending switch that goes off upon residency graduation.

If you're making $200k, then you can easily buy a 250k house, new car, and still make all your loan repayments easily.

There's no rational point to living off 60k for another 2 years when you don't have to.

Let's say you're 120k in debt. If you live off $60k (say, $40k post-tax), then you can spend $60k of your $100k post-tax salary to paying off your loans. You can pay off your loans in 2 years and spend a total of $127k, but you won't have a car and won't have a house.

Or you can spend $16k a year and repay your debt in 10 years, paying a total of $160k. The question is basically: would you be willing to pay an extra $33k over 10 years to live in a house for your first 2 years on the job? I definitely would. So would pretty much anyone else making $200k.
 
One point I think we can all agree on, is someone with the mental aptitude of a physician should never default and accumulate massive fees because they did not read the fine print.
 
If you're making $200k, then you can easily buy a 250k house, new car, and still make all your loan repayments easily.

There's no rational point to living off 60k for another 2 years when you don't have to.

Let's say you're 120k in debt. If you live off $60k (say, $40k post-tax), then you can spend $60k of your $100k post-tax salary to paying off your loans. You can pay off your loans in 2 years and spend a total of $127k, but you won't have a car and won't have a house.

Or you can spend $16k a year and repay your debt in 10 years, paying a total of $160k. The question is basically: would you be willing to pay an extra $33k over 10 years to live in a house for your first 2 years on the job? I definitely would. So would pretty much anyone else making $200k.

I would not. Neither would anyone else who is financially educated.

Do you see your way of thinking? All you're discussing is how much you can spend, spend, spend, spend... Don't ever expect to amass wealth, even if you become a cardiologist with $700K salary. This is why America is underwater now and even millionaire stars like Nicolas Cage and some other famous people are facing financial troubles or foreclosures. Wealth is not determined by your salary, but by how much you keep from your salary after all your liabilities are paid off. Many people with a lot of money are still poor - they may be millionaires, but still think like a poor person. One day they wake up and their money is gone and the temporary good life is over. We have a hideous problem with financial illiteracy in this country.
 
I would not. Neither would anyone else who is financially educated.

Do you see your way of thinking? All you're discussing is how much you can spend, spend, spend, spend... Don't ever expect to amass wealth, even if you become a cardiologist with $700K salary. This is why America is underwater now and even millionaire stars like Nicolas Cage and some other famous people are facing financial troubles or foreclosures. Wealth is not determined by your salary, but by how much you keep from your salary after all your liabilities are paid off. Many people with a lot of money are still poor - they may be millionaires, but still think like a poor person. One day they wake up and their money is gone and the temporary good life is over. We have a hideous problem with financial illiteracy in this country.

quoted for truth times a million. not only did taking time off to work (and pay back credit cards) give me a wake up call for my own personal finances, but i got a look into other peoples finances too. i worked at a bank in a wealthy suburb and was absolutely shocked at how much debt some of the well-off families were in. all they did with their income was pay down their loans. mortgage, car loans, huge credit cards. they were asking for grace periods, bouncing checks, you name it. on the flip side, the people who seemed to be poor on the surface often weren't at all- they were just living cheap because they were busy amassing huge savings. it was incredible to see. and it makes lots of sense, but more often than not we just dont think about it the way we should in this country.

anyway, i agree that i would definitely NOT live in a house for 2 years for extra 33k, that's nuts. by that point i will have been in an apartment so long, who cares about another couple years?
 
This article is going over many heads and the point is missed. It doesn't matter how she got in debt. All that matters is that thousands of medschool graduates every year finish their residency with similar or higher debt and have to deal with it. The point here is that if you want to go into family medicine and similar specialties (or you are forced into it because there are more medical schools and less residency spots every year) and you paid over $200K-300K for your medschool+undergrad (which could double after years of compound interest), you might have a huge problem, especially if you are unwilling to live like a "poor" person even after you become a doctor. So how many here were actually planning to live like that? Or how many here applied to medical schools based on every factor under the sun except the annual tuition? The bottom line here is that financially you might not be able to afford certain medical schools and that is becoming truer with every year.

Also get some perspective from the same thread in the Residency forum: Family Practice Doc crushed with $555K Student Loan Burden. Try to forget how she amassed that debt and concentrate on why she can't pay it off and whether you are going to be that much different.

The point is none of us knows WHY she can't pay it off. Her payments are $1000 per month. What doc making even 120k per year - with no house or car - can't manage $1000 per month? I agree with the person who said she probably couldn't match at all and was living off loans for a few years. Again, being 555k in debt makes a nice, sensational headline. Headlines exist to make you oooh and aaah. You have to think about what you're reading, especially when you're reading something that helps you confirms what you already believe. It's very easy to take a lay article written by some random journalist and use it to preach to the choir.

This woman even admitted that she thought she would be making a nice, fat salary as a doctor and used that to justify her ballooning loans. Everything about that screams immaturity. This is exactly what you're saying, I know, but that's not really a warning about where you should go to school or whether or not you should choose medicine at all...it's a warning about what kind of person you need to be.

Checked out the thread in the residency forum. Response doesn't look too different than it does here.
 
. . . said the condescending premed?? :confused:

Just because you shadowed a nontrad doctor doesn't mean that you have it all figured out either.
Didn't say had it all figured out....I said its more common than most people SDNers want to elude to and that it shouldn't be blamed slowly on being a non trad who went to the Caribbean.

I also didn't say that I shadowed this doc. I work with him, he's a good friend. And I already mentioned I work with a few others also in similar positions. But again, I encourage you to talk to a couple young local FPs in your area....get their insight.
I don't think it will be easy to pay back my loans, nor do I think I can do it in two years.
I was speaking specifically to WhizMD regarding 2 years as that was the time frame he quoted.
But like I said, it's a no-brainer to make loan repayment a priority before you go spending more than you NEED TO on other things.
a house and care are needed things for most people.
A new car and a 250k house? How about a used car and a 125K condo?
the car payment is less than 500 dollars a month. and 125K will get you a run down shack in much need of repairs around here. Condo's? we don't have those.
How about an apartment and taking the subway?
so all graduates who choose FP or another low paying specialty should have to choose to live in an apartment? thats cute too :)laugh:) and geez, I wonder why people are running to be PCPs.

there's no subway here either.
it's all about personal responsibility. and although everyone's individual situation is different, personal responsibility and a little self control is magical for everybody.
where did I say people shouldn't have self control and personal responsibility? I said the guy pays over a 1k a month and has to do so for ~30 years. unlike you he was at least responsible enough to not rack up a bunch of undergrad debt so he's probably a little better off than some others.

I completely agree with Excelsius in that the point is going over most posters heads. wooooooosh.
 
where did I say people shouldn't have self control and personal responsibility? I said the guy pays over a 1k a month and has to do so for ~30 years. unlike you he was at least responsible enough to not rack up a bunch of undergrad debt so he's probably a little better off than some others.
30 year loans are incredibly silly when you have so much debt at the start of the loan. That's pretty much the gist of it. He is running uphill against his interest because he chose lower payments instead of a shorter time frame. And in the meantime he DOUBLED his debt for a commodity that is probably worth 30% less than it was when he paid for it, considering by your time frame he bought when the market was at its most bloated. And he's paying property tax. And homeowner's insurance. And lawnmowing. And all the niggling little messes involved in owning a home.

Not that your math makes any sense. He either isn't being honest with you or you aren't adding and subtracting correctly. 155k in loans can be paid off in 10 years with 1.7k a month. 155k loans, 1k a month, over 4 years, would leave him with about 125k in loans left to pay.

If you want people to be realistic, you should be working to make it clear that 1k a month on your loans is NOT going to happen if you actually want to pay them off. Extending your massive loan over 30 years is a terrible idea. Your interest will become insane.
 
I was speaking specifically to WhizMD regarding 2 years as that was the time frame he quoted.

a house and care are needed things for most people.

there was a ~ before the 2 ;)

and I still can't agree that a 250K house and brand new car are essential for someone who has 100-200k in debt and lives alone. It may be personal preference, but the idea of having a massive debt load over my shoulders and accruing interest, for longer than is absolutely necessary is not appealing to me.
 
i'm sorry but it is just illogical to claim that you cannot find a place to live for under 250K. condos don't exist where you live? really? i am fairly certain they exist in the rest of America. and whether or not something is affordable (ie 500 a month for a car payment) that doesn't mean you should do it. you could pay 500 a month for a car payment. or you could pay a few thousand bucks cash for a used car upfront, and use your extra $500 a month to pay your loan off faster.
 
She made so many mistakes, Note to self::: No Private Loans, Military Scholarship if all else fail::::

This thread shows me that I should look into another field beside PCP/Family Medicine. Even though my debt after medical school should be around 80K, which "isnt much" :scared:.

Low Salary + high tuition/Debt = Shortage of primary care doc in this nation.
 
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Not that your math makes any sense. He either isn't being honest with you or you aren't adding and subtracting correctly. 155k in loans can be paid off in 10 years with 1.7k a month. 155k loans, 1k a month, over 4 years, would leave him with about 125k in loans left to pay....Your interest will become insane.
He has no reason to lie to me, but that's really besides the point. And 10 years at 1.7K does not pay your loans when you add in the interest you mention.

assumptions, assumptions.....ahhh, if only life were so easy. :)
 
He has no reason to lie to me, but that's really besides the point. And 10 years at 1.7K does not pay your loans when you add in the interest you mention.

assumptions, assumptions.....ahhh, if only life were so easy. :)

Yes, it does. 1.7k obviously includes interest because 1.7k x 12 x 10 obviously equals more than 155k.

Pay off 155k in 10 years: 60k interest.

Pay off 155k in 30 years: 200k interest.

Live more frugally than you expected to for 10 years and git'r done, which is exactly what Excelsius was saying. It went over SOMEONE'S head.

Whether or not this is fair is another debate entirely. We treat FPs like crap in this country, I think everyone acknowledges that. But you have to toil under the system you live in, and that involves paying your loans in a timely manner.
 
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