FAQs for IMGs wanting to match into top psychiatry programs

[notdeadyet]

There is no official ranking (obviously), but most of us (at least I) wouldn't consider Mt. Sinai, Yale, Duke, or even Stanford out of the ones you'd mentioned in the top ten programs to train at in this country. It would probably consist of MGH/McLean, Columbia, Cornell, UCLA-NPI, UCSF, Longwood, Cambridge, NYU, Penn, UPMC, and also perhaps Northwestern, UW-Seattle, MUSC, UNC, Michigan, and UCSD.

Oooh, fun. I like splik's list though I'd probably replace Cambridge with Yale.

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[EVOLVED9]

Can somebody pitch in to shed some info on the following:in a lot of salary statistics i've come across a different number for a 'General Psychiatrist and a 'General Adult psychiatrist'.Arent these two categories the same?.Say one does a fellowship in child psychiatry,is he/she allowed go practice both adult nd child psychiatry(i know this is a silly question,but again there are different numbers for both,i dont understand why one would restrict themselves to child psychiatry).
There's a fellowship i'm sure everyone's aware of:'Neuropsychiatry'.Is this a prospective speciality?Would it be dwarfed by 'Behavioural Neurology' in practice?Can one practice both general and neuropsychiatry?

 

[SmallBird]

There is no official ranking (obviously), but most of us (at least I) wouldn't consider Mt. Sinai, Yale, Duke, or even Stanford out of the ones you'd mentioned in the top ten programs to train at in this country. It would probably consist of MGH/McLean, Columbia, Cornell, UCLA-NPI, UCSF, Longwood, Cambridge, NYU, Penn, UPMC, and also perhaps Northwestern, UW-Seattle, MUSC, UNC, Michigan, and UCSD.

Well, there is a published list:

https://residency.doximity.com/programs?residency_specialty_id=58&sort_by=reputation

Not saying its methodologically sound or anything although it isn't very different from your list.

 

[EVOLVED9]

This is an FAQ thread for IMGs wanting to match into top programs. Please don't post irrelevant questions in this thread or I will lock it.

My apolagies,i'm very new to S.D.N,thought this was a general thread open to any discussion relating to psychiatry.

 

[HumanPsych]

Here is my (rather disappointing) story. I am an non-US IMG with high USMLE scores (step 1:269; step 2 CK: 281, CS: pass first-attempt), and a very strong research background (5 yrs of research fellowship including 1.5 yr in a high-rank American institution, +40 psych papers, some of them first-author in high-rank psych journals with IF ~10). I had LORs from three US professors (two psychiatry). The only problem with my application was that it was impossible for me to secure a US clinical rotation and therefore I lack US clinical experience. Now scores aren't everything, but they give you a hint that this person is going to do well in your program ( and the same was true about my home institutions, I was constantly at the top during medical school years). People laughed at my face that I am applying to psych with these scores, but this is the field I am really in love with.

I applied to 14 top programs this year, and received invitation from three. Now all of them are top programs ( and I like them), but not in the top 10 (except maybe for one). And many of those who didn't invite me don't even require clinical experience in the US. I really don't know what exactly they wanted from me that I was unable to offer. But I guess that is the way it is. And I have to be honest, I have worked REALLY hard, I've come a long way and I am extremely disappointed.

 

[downwithDTB]

Here is my (rather disappointing) story. I am an non-US IMG with high USMLE scores (step 1:269; step 2 CK: 281, CS: pass first-attempt), and a very strong research background (5 yrs of research fellowship including 1.5 yr in a high-rank American institution, +40 psych papers, some of them first-author in high-rank psych journals with IF ~10). I had LORs from three US professors (two psychiatry). The only problem with my application was that it was impossible for me to secure a US clinical rotation and therefore I lack US clinical experience. Now scores aren't everything, but they give you a hint that this person is going to do well in your program ( and the same was true about my home institutions, I was constantly at the top during medical school years). People laughed at my face that I am applying to psych with these scores, but this is the field I am really in love with.

I applied to 14 top programs this year, and received invitation from three. Now all of them are top programs ( and I like them), but not in the top 10 (except maybe for one). And many of those who didn't invite me don't even require clinical experience in the US. I really don't know what exactly they wanted from me that I was unable to offer. But I guess that is the way it is. And I have to be honest, I have worked REALLY hard, I've come a long way and I am extremely disappointed.

If you had to pick, would you rather be a really great researcher and so-so psychiatrist, or the opposite? What did you say was your career plan?

 

[HumanPsych]

If you had to pick, would you rather be a really great researcher and so-so psychiatrist, or the opposite? What did you say was your career plan?

That's a good question, I said I wanted to be a great clinician scientist, and I really meant it. And I only applied to the programs that have such a goal. The reason for this is that based on my record I have been consistently good at both (no bragging intended).

 

[downwithDTB]

That's a good question, I said I wanted to be a great clinician scientist, and I really meant it. And I only applied to the programs that have such a goal. The reason for this is that based on my record I have been consistently good at both (no bragging intended).

We talking 80/20… 90/10… 50/50… 20/80?Multiple R01s or some department cash to do clinical studies? And that was a forced choice question... if you could only be good at one, which one?

 

[Jorje286]

We talking 80/20… 90/10… 50/50… 20/80?Multiple R01s or some department cash to do clinical studies? And that was a forced choice question... if you could only be good at one, which one?

I don't think you need to answer this question in this sort of detail, at least not in your personal statement. A lot of programs will salivate at you if your goal is to become a clinician-scientist, especially if you have a track record of successful research.

Anyways, you have two major negative points there or at least one and a half. One is years away from the clinic and the other is lack of USCE. Your spectacular scores cannot make up completely for that, especially if they were taken well after medical school (PDs will suspect that you studied more than the norm for US graduates for them). Add to that that a good chunk, probably a majority, of the very top programs will simply not accept IMGs if they do not have close contacts with the program, especially when you add in the red flags. IMO you should have applied to more programs. On the bright side, if you interviewed at the place(s) where you're doing research and people know you very well and are willing to back you up, then you have a great chance of matching.

 

[HumanPsych]

We talking 80/20… 90/10… 50/50… 20/80?Multiple R01s or some department cash to do clinical studies? And that was a forced choice question... if you could only be good at one, which one?

Alright. That is a different question, you can still be a good psychiatrist (you don't need to be so so) and see only a specific type of patients in a more limited amount of time. That way I will definitely go for 75/25 research/clinic.

 

[HumanPsych]

You do not need to answer this question in this sort of detail, at least not in your personal statement. A lot of programs will salivate at you if your goal is to become a clinician-scientist, especially if you have a track record of successful research.

On the bright side, if you interviewed at the place(s) where you're doing research and people know you very well and are willing to back you up, then you have a great chance of matching.

I am doing that, and yes they have been very supportive. I think lack of connection is really a major factor.

 

[downwithDTB]

Perhaps the research PDs who are looking primarily for post docs that they can train enough to pass the boards didn't see enough commitment to research in your PS and want people who will become closer to 90/10 and try to run as huge a lab as possible. Perhaps those PDs who only interview research candidates clinically on par with their non-research candidates are worried about the lack of US clinical experience. Just a guess. Impossible to know.

(I don't disagree with you about being a good doctor who sees a specific type of patients, at least I hope that it's the case, but some PDs might).

 

[splik]

Here is my (rather disappointing) story. I am an non-US IMG with high USMLE scores (step 1:269; step 2 CK: 281, CS: pass first-attempt), and a very strong research background (5 yrs of research fellowship including 1.5 yr in a high-rank American institution, +40 psych papers, some of them first-author in high-rank psych journals with IF ~10). I had LORs from three US professors (two psychiatry). The only problem with my application was that it was impossible for me to secure a US clinical rotation and therefore I lack US clinical experience. Now scores aren't everything, but they give you a hint that this person is going to do well in your program ( and the same was true about my home institutions, I was constantly at the top during medical school years). People laughed at my face that I am applying to psych with these scores, but this is the field I am really in love with.

I applied to 14 top programs this year, and received invitation from three. Now all of them are top programs ( and I like them), but not in the top 10 (except maybe for one). And many of those who didn't invite me don't even require clinical experience in the US. I really don't know what exactly they wanted from me that I was unable to offer. But I guess that is the way it is. And I have to be honest, I have worked REALLY hard, I've come a long way and I am extremely disappointed.

Don't be too discouraged, some program only start looking at IMGs in November so it is very possible you will continue to get interviews during the coming weeks. Feel free to PM me and we can chat strategy going forward. Your scores are excellent. Sometimes scores of >280 are seen as a red flag. Scores actually don't give a good sense with how you will do in psychiatry at all, however they should get people interested in your application. Lack of US electives can be a problem at some programs, but actually there are very few top programs that would bar someone an interview due to lack of US electives even if they claim to. My own program claims they do not interview IMGs without at least 6 weeks electives but we occasionally do. It can be disheartening waiting, but I continued to get interviews through november (in fact about half of my interviews came in november) and that is the standard course for IMGs applying to top programs.

 

[HumanPsych]

Perhaps the research PDs who are looking primarily for post docs that they can train enough to pass the boards didn't see enough commitment to research in your PS and want people who will become closer to 90/10 and try to run as huge a lab as possible. Perhaps those PDs who only interview research candidates clinically on par with their non-research candidates are worried about the lack of US clinical experience. Just a guess. Impossible to know.

(I don't disagree with you about being a good doctor who sees a specific type of patients, at least I hope that it's the case, but some PDs might).

Well, I didn't imply 75/25 in my PS. I practically have more papers than most of my peers at psych and not just papers, really good papers (not Science or Nature, but high-rank psych journals like Biological Psych or Neuropsychopharmacology). And I emphasized on my research, so that is unlikely to be the problem. But as you said, nobody knows what is happening in the PD's head. Anyway thanks for the suggestions.

 

[shan564]

Here is my (rather disappointing) story. I am an non-US IMG with high USMLE scores (step 1:269; step 2 CK: 281, CS: pass first-attempt), and a very strong research background (5 yrs of research fellowship including 1.5 yr in a high-rank American institution, +40 psych papers, some of them first-author in high-rank psych journals with IF ~10). I had LORs from three US professors (two psychiatry). The only problem with my application was that it was impossible for me to secure a US clinical rotation and therefore I lack US clinical experience. Now scores aren't everything, but they give you a hint that this person is going to do well in your program ( and the same was true about my home institutions, I was constantly at the top during medical school years). People laughed at my face that I am applying to psych with these scores, but this is the field I am really in love with.

I applied to 14 top programs this year, and received invitation from three. Now all of them are top programs ( and I like them), but not in the top 10 (except maybe for one). And many of those who didn't invite me don't even require clinical experience in the US. I really don't know what exactly they wanted from me that I was unable to offer. But I guess that is the way it is. And I have to be honest, I have worked REALLY hard, I've come a long way and I am extremely disappointed.

You should send an email to some of your top programs and explain the situation. You might have been automatically filtered out due to your lack of US rec letters, but you're a good enough applicant so that you can probably make up for that.

Did you apply at WashU? If you want to be a researcher, you definitely should. I can't tell you whether it's too late to get an invitation at this stage, but I can tell you that our PD is human, and would probably consider your application as a whole.